Home
Posted By: 78CJ 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
Ok, so my dad drew a once in a lifetime tag for elk here in Michigan and we need to find a load for his '06. The first thing that the guide and several others say is to get some 180's.

Now, I am a bigger fan than most of heavy bullets but dad really prefers the recoil with 150's and I am concerned that we will be sacrificing comfort and shot placement with a heavier bullet.

If there is no problem downing elk with a 150 grainer in a .270 than why not in an '06.

Any shot offered should be inside 200 yards.

Thanks

Ryan
Posted By: Tejano Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
Haven't used that combo for Elk but confidence rules and I wouldn't hesitate to go with it. If I was loading from scratch I would probably go 165-168 X. But a 150 will perform similar to a cup and core 180 with more penetration and slightly smaller wound channel. The 150s in 7mm work well on the medium to large hoofed game.
Posted By: ingwe Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
Hate to be boring with a reply but...
+1 to what Tejano said...
Ingwe
Posted By: John_G Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
That combination will shoot flat, hit hard, and penetrate like hell. Go for it.
Posted By: RickF Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
I KNOW they work great on moose, and have carried that combo for elk. Can't imagine it not working just fine.
Posted By: Hammerdown Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
I have used the T-TSX 150 grain bullet in 30-06 on Red Deer, with no problems. I think you will be fine.

I would not hesitate to use this combo on an Elk hunt.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
Just tell the guide the bullets ARE 180's. This little white lie will prevent any silly arguments.

I have found many guides to be pretty mule-headed in their "knowledge," partly I'd guess because they consider themsevles experts in all things related to hunting. They may be great at finding game, but this doesn't mean they know much about rifles, ammo, scopes. etc.

A good example is that I am very comfortable using 6x scopes in thick cover, in fact prefer 6x because I can often see the target better than with traditional "woods" scopes (and can oftgen see intervening twigs better as well).

On my first hunt in Africa I had my .375's scope on 6x while hunting in some fairly thick thornbrush. At one point the PH looked at me and asked what magnification my scope was set on. I said 6x and he told me turn it down. Instead of arguing I acted like I turned it down, but didn't.

Tell the guide they're 180's. He'll never know the difference.
Posted By: TopCat Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
While 180gr is a good recommendation for lead core bullets, in the X series the 150 will give better penetration than the lead cored ones, with the added benefit of more velocity and magnum like performance. I would go with the T-TSX if it's available to you.

TC
Posted By: JBabcock Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
I reloaded some 150 TSX bullets for my 30-06 and then ran a test shot into an apple box filled full of newspapers and telephone books. The bullet went all the way through the apple box, through the cooler that the box was sitting on, through the floor of the trailer, and then bounced off of the steel bumper of the trailer. I dug the bullet out of the ground and weighed it. It weighed 149 grains. Not a very scientific test, but I sure was impressed with the penetration! The bullet was a picture perfect Barnes "X" shape.

That load was sitting over a healthy but safe charge of H4350, ran over the chronograph at 3039 fps, and gave me 3/4" groups. I wouldn't hesitate to use that load on an Elk.
Posted By: 78CJ Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
Well, I went and shot three strings today. 48,49, and 50 grains of H4895 with 150tsx's in RP once fired brass with WLR primers.

The 48 grain group was the best and mildest but showed some funny pressure signs (primers backing out and sticky extraction), velocities were on par with Barnes data but the recoil is less than desireable.

Back to square one. I am a recoil junkie and I did not shoot the max 51 grain load.

Ryan
Posted By: ingwe Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/04/09
Originally Posted by JBabcock


That load was sitting over a healthy but safe charge of H4350, ran over the chronograph at 3039 fps, and gave me 3/4" groups. I wouldn't hesitate to use that load on an Elk.


Have you tried the 4350 yet? I like the H4350 too, and its another "go to" powder for the '06...
Ingwe
Posted By: DakotaDeer Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/05/09
I've used the 130 TSX out of the -06 on a bunch of deer. I've yet to recover a single one. I'd use it on elk in a heartbeat.
Posted By: JBabcock Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/05/09
I haven't tried IMR 4350 with that bullet in that gun, (JC Higgins FN 98) but I have used it in a custom CZ 550 30-06 built by AHR that I have, with excellent results.
Posted By: AB2506 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/05/09
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Just tell the guide the bullets ARE 180's. This little white lie will prevent any silly arguments.

I have found many guides to be pretty mule-headed in their "knowledge," partly I'd guess because they consider themsevles experts in all things related to hunting. They may be great at finding game, but this doesn't mean they know much about rifles, ammo, scopes. etc.

A good example is that I am very comfortable using 6x scopes in thick cover, in fact prefer 6x because I can often see the target better than with traditional "woods" scopes (and can oftgen see intervening twigs better as well).

On my first hunt in Africa I had my .375's scope on 6x while hunting in some fairly thick thornbrush. At one point the PH looked at me and asked what magnification my scope was set on. I said 6x and he told me turn it down. Instead of arguing I acted like I turned it down, but didn't.

Tell the guide they're 180's. He'll never know the difference.


It's amazing how many "professionals", whether guides, outfitters, store reps etc, are blinded by tradition and often have no interest in keeping up to date. An example are the store reps who try to talk people into not buying a WSM. "They won't be around in 10 years. Besides they don't do anything that can't be done with an existing cartridge. etc" It just floors me that people who make their living with firearms don't keep up on their reading and experimenting etc. I just they just aren't all rifle loonies.

Frustrates the hell out of me. Do what Mule Deer says.

Posted By: MILES58 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/05/09
Originally Posted by 78CJ
Well, I went and shot three strings today. 48,49, and 50 grains of H4895 with 150tsx's in RP once fired brass with WLR primers.

The 48 grain group was the best and mildest but showed some funny pressure signs (primers backing out and sticky extraction), velocities were on par with Barnes data but the recoil is less than desireable.

Back to square one. I am a recoil junkie and I did not shoot the max 51 grain load.

Ryan


Try working up to 51.5 of Varget with the 150s or maybe a better bet is the TTSX 130 over 53 or so of Varget. With as many elk as have been killed with 270s shooting 130 grain bullets I doubt one will notice you snuck a 130 grain TTSX into his chest and just run off laughing. The 130 grain TTSX kills deer as well as anything and does not stop in them. Most guns seem to like them at around 3150 FPS, an the recoil is less than the 150s.
Posted By: vacrt2002 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/05/09
Scientific enough for me........ cool

Originally Posted by JBabcock
I reloaded some 150 TSX bullets for my 30-06 and then ran a test shot into an apple box filled full of newspapers and telephone books. The bullet went all the way through the apple box, through the cooler that the box was sitting on, through the floor of the trailer, and then bounced off of the steel bumper of the trailer. I dug the bullet out of the ground and weighed it. It weighed 149 grains. Not a very scientific test, but I sure was impressed with the penetration! The bullet was a picture perfect Barnes "X" shape.

That load was sitting over a healthy but safe charge of H4350, ran over the chronograph at 3039 fps, and gave me 3/4" groups. I wouldn't hesitate to use that load on an Elk.
Posted By: vapodog Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/05/09
Use whatever you want.....it's your hunt!
My wife's moose load is a 150 TSX in Winchester brass with a Federal 210 primer, and loaded with 48 grains of H4895. Here is a picture of the results. wink

[Linked Image]


One shot, dropped at the shot. 60 yards braodside - high shoulder/spined. Never moved an inch. Finishing shot (ALWAYS) to the back of the head - execution style. grin

What you can see is 500 pounds. Doubt an elk will present a more difficult kill.
Posted By: Bighorn Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/06/09
Just go with the 150's. I handload 150 gr. TSXes for my son's .30-06- Chrono velocity is 2950 fps, out of a 22" barrel. Light recoil, flat shooting round.

Just tell the guide (if asked) that they are 180 grainers- nobody is going to weigh them!!
Posted By: BMT Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/06/09
I agree with all of them thar guys!

BMT
Posted By: guy57 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/16/09
Ryan, congrats to dad on the elk tag. I've helped guide to several elk here in Mi. with my step son who has guided to over 100 elk here. I feel as most of your other replies seem to that a 150 grn. quality bullet is fine for elk. Having watched several clients shoot and shoot at elk i feel VERY strongly that it is far more important to be comfortable with your gun and it's recoil than to worry about bullet weight. Having said that, we have been aproached mid season in the last two or three years several times by unsatisfied clients looking to change guides. Michigan does not require a license to guide. It seems that with the economy what it is here everyone is now a guide. NOT! I don't know who your guide is, nor do i want to, you way have the best guide in the state, for dads sake i hope so. I don't want to ruffel feathers or make anyone mad but for a once in a lifetime tag a good guide is a must. Good luck Guy
Posted By: Steve_NO Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/18/09
wouldn't hesitate to use that load on elk, but....you guys must have better calibrated shoulders than I do because I'll be damned if I can notice the difference between a maxed out 150 and a 180 in my .30-06.....and it's an old featherweight with an aluminum buttplate.
Posted By: 78CJ Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/20/09
Originally Posted by Steve_NO
wouldn't hesitate to use that load on elk, but....you guys must have better calibrated shoulders than I do because I'll be damned if I can notice the difference between a maxed out 150 and a 180 in my .30-06.....and it's an old featherweight with an aluminum buttplate.


I actually found a load that works finally and it is on the low end of barnes data with 48grains of H4895. When I worked up loads I could tell that the recoil was getting a slight more intense up to 51grains.

Ryan
Posted By: Ready Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/20/09
. 30-06, 150 gr. TSX at the right spot = dead elk.

As to anybody doing one over their guide - there are a few out there not for the money or the girls ( frown ) but for their love of hunting and bits of a loon themselves.

Posted By: Klikitarik Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/21/09
Years ago, I killed quite a few caribou with the 150 XFB in my 30-06. Never recovered one either; not even when a "catcher" ran behind my intended target. Got both though the second went down a few seconds quicker than the first. My only regret was that there wasn't a third. It was a 5/day limit at the time and it might have saved me a few nickles. grin
Posted By: Joe Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/27/09
Just put them in a 180 grain box and if asked about the weight reply that they are 9.72 grams. I'm pretty sure that will end the discussion.
Like Muledeer I have, unfortunatly, found most guides and most PHs are less than experts on firearms and balistics, many are not particularly good shots, but that is not their job, their job is putting you in a position to shoot the animal, to meet your needs on the hunt.. What you choose to shoot game with is your business as you are the paying client. I see no reason to make excuses to them for their ignorance. They can suggest, but your the boss IMO...

It is a pretty moot point anyway as a 150 gr. monolithic HP in a a 30-06 has as much penetration as any 180 copper and lead preminum bullet on the market and probably more.

I am a big fan of the 180 and 200 gr. Noslers and Woodleighs at 2700 FPS in my 30-06, but if your dad is only comfortable with 150s then the GS Customs or the BarnesX bullets are a good choice, and I suspect they will lay the biggest bull in the USA on the ground with any decent shot.
Posted By: 78CJ Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
I wanted to get some pics up for an update but it was raining.

We found a load with the 150's that is a shooter and I loaded the first 50 of about 200 rounds that I want him to shoot prior to his hunt.

We are on the right track!!!

Thanks for the help

Ryan
Posted By: Ready Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
Quote
Like Muledeer I have, unfortunatly, found most guides and most PHs are less than experts on firearms and balistics, many are not particularly good shots, but that is not their job, their job is putting you in a position to shoot the animal, to meet your needs on the hunt.. What you choose to shoot game with is your business as you are the paying client. I see no reason to make excuses to them for their ignorance. They can suggest, but your the boss IMO...


So, Ray, what kind of holster are you using to be that quick with your broad brush? Same to JB.

While all stated I take to be true - let us not forget the diversity of clients skill level also.

The same guides you and JB, two hunters very well versed in all matters, thought to be ignorant, just might still know a thing or too more than the average hunter.

What I do not understand - the level of gung ho you seem to feel necessary putting down the profession as displayed in the above statement.

Your thing, though, I can not leave such stand uncommented.




Posted By: Ready Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
78CJ,

first of, sorry for the above sidetrack.

I am glad that you seem to have found an accurate load for the 150gr. TSX for your fathers rifle.
Posted By: orion03 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
Has the tip on the TSX taken care of the problem of the bullet not expanding in all instances. Only experience I have is with some original X-bullets, 100gr. 6.5's out of a 260, that twice just penciled through the lungs without opening up that made for some longer tracking jobs. They worked fine if heavy muscle or bone was encountered.
Posted By: Ready Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
Have not personal experience with the TTSX (tipped TSX). The TSX have always opened for me - from 6mm Rem. through .30, 8mm, 9,3 till .458 (.45-70). Species from Roe Deer through Wild Boar, Fallow and Red deer, till Brown Bear.

Various striking velocites - you name it. They simply work for me.
Posted By: orion03 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
I have no experience with the TSX either. It was with the original with no relief grooves that I had problems with.
Originally Posted by orion03
I have no experience with the TSX either. It was with the original with no relief grooves that I had problems with.


Here is an article I wrote some years back that explains a lot of the transitions in Barnes X bullets. Maybe it will help demonstrate which some people are not fans and others are? The fact is that bullets change faster and more often that opinions. I like them but do not use them exclusively as I try to be bias towards nothing and open minded to everything. Incidently, I have probably killed mroe animals with X's than most people, but have never experienced nor even heard of the non opening factor until I read it on this web site so one man's experience is not universal fact, even mine.

JW


Barnes X Triple Shock Bullets
By
John Woods

The bull was huge, at least a ton on the hoof and we were on his turf. These wild scrub cattle are born wild and range over much of the outback cattle country and can be very dangerous as they do not fear man and confront humans without fear, every time the cattle are rounded up.

The scenario goes like this:

The cattle are rounded up each year so that the surplus can be sold to market and the yearlings can be branded to establish ownership and add to the stock count. It is during these round ups that the wild scrub bulls become dangerous as they come out of the heavy timber and attempt to break up the herds and steal the cattle. They see these ladies as their own and will not let a mere human take them away. The scrub bull is lord up here and will fight with all the aggression of the bovine family.

We are talking remote country here. I was hunting in untamed land 27 miles from the homestead, which was located 44 miles from the front gate. The property was so large that the owner had never seen his back fence. He just knew it was drawn on a survey map he kept somewhere in the house.

This bull was everything I was after. He had the good color and face markings I liked, big bulky body and long horns that looked close to 2 feet in length each side. This was my bull.

He was angling towards us at a bout 500 yards when first spotted. I slipped out of the car and grabbed the .460. After slipping in a couple of 500 grain Hornady loads, I topped it off with a 400 grain Barnes X bullet loaded to 2900 fps. I figured my �light load� creating 7500 foot pounds of muzzle energy would be adequate.

By using the trees and only moving when he was feeding or obscured by large �blow downs� I managed to close the distance to 30 yards with him grazing and angled towards my left.

I raised the Weatherby and let the unbreakable Tasco Titan rest on his shoulder, which would allow the bullet to penetrate towards the rump on the off side. At the shot, the bull slumped to the ground. The Weatherby slams big game so hard that getting up was a useless endeavor on the bull�s part. As I approached, he tried to raise his head so I hit him again on the shoulder with the 500 grain Hornady which was next in the magazine.

It wasn�t necessary as the bull died as the shot rang.

During the skining process, I recovered the Hornady under the shoulder between the ribs and the shoulder. The bullet has spent most of it�s weight and never even penetrated the ribs. This bullet would not have killed the bull and had it been the first shot, I may have had to track a dangerous and wounded animal, which would have made for a very interesting hunt indeed.

Where was the Barnes X? We looked all through the shoulder, checked over the rib cage for signs of penetration and then gave up and went back to the caping as the sun was beginning to lower in the sky line.

During a skinning break, I leaned against the rump of the huge bovine and rested my hands back on the rump for balance. Just then I noticed a small bump in the skin on the rear of the animal some 6 feet from the point of impact. I cut the Barnes X bullet out and stood there admiring the greatest technological advancement in ballistic history.

I was holding a bullet that was both, a solid and a soft point, in fact the best way to describe a Barnes X bullet, is to call it an expanding solid, the perfect dangerous game bullet. Now that makes it easy to prove and colorful to try and disprove, doesn�t it?

My first experience with Barnes bullets came in 1990 when I built my first .416 Weatherby magnum rifle and needed bullets in that scarce caliber, for that time at least.

The 350 grain X bullets back then, were very rough compared to today�s version. The openings were very large with thick petals and the brass was very scratched and pitted, nothing like the smooth shiny examples we see today. On game, they hit like a hammer and penetrated very well but the copper in its original versions, was not soft and malleable and the petals almost always broke off. Probably a stupid statement on my part, as you had to have the animals dead on the ground to determine this.

Over the next dozen years, Barnes continually refined these bullets and a variety of subtle changes were made without fanfare on the part of Barnes, who were actively trying to make the best soft point bullet of the day, into the best soft point bullet in history.

From 1990 up until last year, I shot literally hundreds of animals from small game like foxes and pigs through to animals approaching a ton or more in live weight. I killed game at brush hunting range out to distances requiring 4 feet hold over and always, I got kills that required no tracking which is the way it should be.(edited to say that I cannot recall a single animal ever requiring tracking which is different to many statements made by other users.)

I have always had the opinion that a rifle, any rifle for that mater, is just a launching pad for a bullet. A horrible cartridge, if there is such a thing, loaded with a good bullet will still get the game down efficiently.

Look at the reverse of this argument. The most famous gun writers ever published, continually condemned cartridges based on the way the bullets of the day performed. Likewise, the rifle manufacturers lived in constant fear that these same guru�s, may not look with favor on their months and years or research and hard work.

The research efforts of the whole gun trade could be trashed by a gun writer who, unfortunately for the consumer, didn�t understand the fundamentals of ballistic performance. The bullet does the killing, not the rifle, not the cartridge.

Having said that, I did notice the evolutionary changes in Barnes bullets over the years, having used them in every popular caliber from .224 through to .458. It was however, during the middle 1990�s, that I noticed the most changes.

The bullets went from sharp edged bases to boat tails, then the heal�s changed angles and became concave then flat again. The exterior changed considerably as the ogives were altered, longer, sleeker, rounder, secant, you name it, Barnes tried it.

The holow point noses were also made smaller, making the bullets more streamlined thereby increasing the ballistic co-efficient. The petals became thinner at the tips. The surface of the bullets was constantly under review until Barnes reached the mirror smooth versions we have today.

Even the metallurgy was altered as complaints came in of barrel fouling with Barnes X bullets. Never once did Brooks sit on his laurels and say that was it. He constantly tested his own product and never gave up on the concept of continual improvement.

I have been supplied with many Barnes X bullets over the years for testing and review and have also purchased my own over the same period. I have been fortunate enough to have tested these bullets on wild free ranging game and still to this day have never seen imitation flesh and bone called �ballistic gelatin�. I sincerely hope I can make that claim in another 10 years.

The value of this to my reader�s, is that I am incapable of basing comments on theory. I can only report factual performance in the field.

The latest versions of the X bullet available from Barnes, are called �Triple Shock� and are the result of research performed during the days of barrel fouling claims. (I never had the fouling issues others claimed, though it is very possible that some barrels will foul more than others.)

Initially, Brooks experimented with the addition of grooves around the bearing surface of the bullets in an effort to reduce the drag and friction during the engraving process as the bullet enters the rifling.

The �Triple Shock� brand name has been marketed further as providing �3� rings and having �3� impact advantages but I don�t want to regurgitate the marketing of these bullets but instead, offer my own observations. For a start, not all bullets have �3� rings as generally reported. Included in my test samples were 115 grain .257 bullets that have �4� rings around them.

My latest information from Barnes, indicates that Barnes may in time supply some bullets with less or more than �3� rings depending on their research as to the best combination for each particular bullet. The additional listings for 2004 include 6 bullets from .257 to .338 caliber that incorporate 4 grooves in their design.

This R&D includes the size of the rings, the depth and the position of these rings. The bottom line is, that these bullets offer less friction during the engraving process so that initial pressures are reduced considerably.

What this means to the hand-loader is that your usual powder charges with Barnes X bullets will yield higher velocities with the new Triple Shock Bullets.

The samples originally supplied for review included 100 grain Boat Tail and 115 grain flat base .257 caliber, 140 grain B.T. in 7mm and 168 and 180 grain boat tails in .308 caliber. All of these bullets are both legal and capable of taking any game found here in Colorado, so were ideal choices for review.

In my custom barreled .25/06, I got the most amazing performance with my usual load of 55 grains of Winchester 760 generating 3504 fps, which is about 200 fps over factory specs. Admittedly, My barrel is a custom 26 inch match grade, stainless, fluted, barrel made to my specifications and is faster than normal .25/06 barrels, but this is a sizzling load for open country or big game.

With the 115 grainers, I loaded 51 grains of 760 and got ragged hole grouping with an average velocity of 3173 fps. I didn�t push this bullet further because I was impressed with the extreme accuracy of the load.

My 7mm is a genuine Rigby .275, which is a classic and legendary hunting rifle capable of almost anything as you have read many times in the printed media. I have not killed any tigers or elephant lately with mine, but with the standard version of the 140 grain XBT bullets, I have killed a lot of game including goats, foxes, pigs and deer up to red stag in size and larger game like feral horses. In most cases, complete penetration and instant one shot kills resulted.

With the new Triple Shock bullets, the Rigby was loaded as usual with 52.5 grains of 760 (This is much hotter that most reloading Manuals but completely safe in my rifle) and the Oehler 35P chronograph recorded velocities averaging 2914 fps and all bullet holes touching.

The .30/06 was also a surprise result when I loaded the 168 grain Triple Shock bullets over 62 grain of 760, where the average velocity reached 3016 fps. I do not usually use this bullet weight in this cartridge but the accuracy I achieved with this bullet was exemplary also, with all bullets touching on the targets during chronographing.

When I moved up to the 180 grain bullets, my usual load of 60 grains of H4350 produced velocities of 2842 fps so in all cases, I got improvements in velocity except for the Rigby which duplicated pervious X bullet performance.

What I did get from all rifles was an improvement in accuracy and without any detrimental effects or handloading difficulties, which I did kinda expect, from the seating of the bullets.(edited to qualify that all review loads were shot at 7000 feet elevation)

Just recently, Barnes issued an addition to the range for 2004. You can buy .224 caliber Triple Shock bullets in 53 grain, 85 grain TSXBT for the .243, 130 grain TSX FB for the 6.5mm, a very practical 200 grainer TSXFB in .30 caliber and 2 excellent and useful bullet weights in .338 caliber, being the 185 grain TSXBT and the 225 grain flat base.

These last 2 bullets arrived too late for the chronographing sessions, but I will load and use them this year in my hunts and will report on their successes.

I also hear that Barnes will be releasing a 450 grain .458 Triple Shock bullet around mid year so I will look forward to trying that one out in my .460 Weatherby.

I can happily endorse these bullets as the latest technology and also as stated at the begining of this article, the best technological advancement in ballistic history. By the way, the advertised claims by Barnes that these bullets increase penetration over conventional lead core bullets by 22% in my experience is a false claim.

My use of these bullets on game has determined 500% and more increase in penetration on game, compared to conventional lead core bullets. I guess there is no crime in outperforming your claim, which is good news for the consumer.

One word of warning, my loads are exactly that, my loads and developed in my rifles. They bear no relation to what is recommended in reloading manuals and the reader is requested to reduce all charges by 10% and work up slowly to determine the best loads in your own firearms.

That was a completely excellent article and enjoyable read! Thank you!
Posted By: Jeff_O Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/28/09
Yep!
Posted By: Klikitarik Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/29/09
That was a well done piece. And you have clearly explained how they have managed to successfully meld their research and development into their marketing, a feat which many on the world of merchandising might justifiably be jealous of. But the risk in combine R&D with marketing is that you can end up frustrating the end user, sometimes even to the detriment of the brand.

Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter


The bullets went from sharp edged bases to boat tails, then the heal�s changed angles and became concave then flat again. The exterior changed considerably as the ogives were altered, longer, sleeker, rounder, secant, you name it, Barnes tried it.

The holow point noses were also made smaller, making the bullets more streamlined thereby increasing the ballistic co-efficient. The petals became thinner at the tips. The surface of the bullets was constantly under review until Barnes reached the mirror smooth versions we have today.

Even the metallurgy was altered as complaints came in of barrel fouling with Barnes X bullets. Never once did Brooks sit on his laurels and say that was it. He constantly tested his own product and never gave up on the concept of continual improvement.



But when they work right, and especially if you never had them work wrong:

Quote
Just then I noticed a small bump in the skin on the rear of the animal some 6 feet from the point of impact. I cut the Barnes X bullet out and stood there admiring the greatest technological advancement in ballistic history.


...they can be almost magical in their allure. But, just as I have done with other manufacturers who have foisted their testing off on their customers at the customer's expense, I have, for the time being, written them off - even though I know how well they can work. (It's way to difficult - and expensive- to get powder and primers out into this roadless area to accept a product that is being continuously "improved" [changed] without warning, with the resulting need to re-develop a load.)
Posted By: orion03 Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/29/09
One thing about the X-bullet, it's always good for an arguement. Never seen a product that works so well for some people and so poorly for others. Bought a couple of boxes of MRX 130 grainers for my 270 and plan to put them to the test this fall. For what they cost they better work!
Posted By: Klikitarik Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/29/09
Well I think AGW hit the nail on the head as to why, or at least one of the reasons. As I mentioned in an earlier post on this same thread, I have had wonderful results with the 150s (the old XFBs anyway) in my 30-06. As AGW made clear though, one could not count on the product to be similar from one purchase to the next - at least not by mail-order. I never did find more of the 150s which had been working well and I probably still have some of the "same product" which is clearly different in appearance and performance taking up space in cases they got loaded into.
Originally Posted by Klikitarik
That was a well done piece. And you have clearly explained how they have managed to successfully meld their research and development into their marketing, a feat which many on the world of merchandising might justifiably be jealous of. But the risk in combine R&D with marketing is that you can end up frustrating the end user, sometimes even to the detriment of the brand.




But when they work right, and especially if you never had them work wrong:


...they can be almost magical in their allure. But, just as I have done with other manufacturers who have foisted their testing off on their customers at the customer's expense, I have, for the time being, written them off - even though I know how well they can work. (It's way to difficult - and expensive- to get powder and primers out into this roadless area to accept a product that is being continuously "improved" [changed] without warning, with the resulting need to re-develop a load.) [/quote]

There is an important message here that is unstated by most, that fact being, this is not an exclusive effort on the part of Barnes, all the bullet manufacturers do it and never tell you, the consumer, about the changes.

I heard it said that Sierra considers Australians to be the most knowledgeable shooters in the world, based on the number of calls they get challenging the company on bullet performance changes noted in the field. I have heard similar about Hornady and know the others all do it. (Hornady will answer your questions or challenges about a particular bullet but will not volunteer information anbout bullets they have changed and that is ok. Woodleigh is probably the only company that openly tells you about the research and animals taken prior to a commercial release.

This is not slander upon the bullet manufactuers but praise for their continual efforts to bring a great product to the market place. As an example, we all remember the abomination that was bestowed upon the market in the 80's when the Ballistic Tip was released.

These were unfit for all but varmints. I tried them in 7x57, 257 Weatherby, .338, 270, 7mm Remington Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum taking a few dozen animals with them with far too many requiring follow up shots after good bullet placement.

I even tried a ridiculous experiment whereby I took out a pair of .257 Wby's and loaded one with BT's and the other with Solid Bases, both 100 grainers. I ended using the SB's to finish the job. To ensure I was being fair, I went out again and loaded a 7X57 with 140gn Solid bases and a 7mm Remongton with Ballistic Tips. Again, I used the Mauser to clean up.

My last effort with them in 7mm was to load them into the Mauser hoping the reduced velocity would assist the bullet. Not enough to my liking. With the .300 Winchester I experiened the same results with under 200 yard hits so I went to a place that offered 500 yard shots where I routinely knocked sentry goats off the cliffs.

When the goat fell solidy straight down, I though the reduction in velocity way out there may be a way out to use up these bullets. When I reached the goat, I retrieved the fully expanded boat tail base against the hide on the far side. No core of course.

I gave up on them until the reports of redesign came in during the 90's with the first praises lourded towards the .257 in 100 grain weight. Hunters were swearing by them so Nosler got it right and now offers a product that pleases most shooters both for accuracy and field performance. You all remember the complaints about Accubonds with the tips falling off in the packets? They fixed that too.

My point is that it is not realistic to single out Barnes and point the bone at them. We all learn and so do the companies which mainly consist of like minded shooters and hunters just like us. God Bless Them all.

JW
Posted By: Ready Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/29/09
Orion03,

just to avoid any confusion.

Barnes X - no grooves, no coating
Barnes XLC - no grooves, blue coating
Barnes TSX - grooves, no coating
Barnes TTSX - grooves, no coating, plastik tip.

I have experience with:

X, XLC, TSX

To me they are a progression for hunting purposes.

Disclaimer:

the above is a rough, phaenotypic discription of the bullets.
I want to leave it at that - not recognizing changes made in cavity style etc.
Posted By: Klikitarik Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/29/09
Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter

My point is that it is not realistic to single out Barnes and point the bone at them.


Nor is it realistic, from a sound marketing standpoint anyway, for the consumer to be the paying product tester during research and development. Barnes has been notable in doing that. The Ballistic Tips I used to kill moose, when there only three colors in boxes of 100, seemed to work alright, just as every box I've purchased since -although I don't expect them to work like Partitions. And further, whatever changes they may have made were not betrayed by the way they shot, something I certainly couldn't say about others. (And why spend a couple of hundred dollars - back when bullets were cheaper I might add- if you don't know what the product will do? And that's what I did essentially. Bought a couple boxes, worked up a load, tried it, ordered more - same item/order number, different product. Screw me! I will not accept that from durable goods; I will surely not accept that from consumables. Any company which produces a consumable good, especially one which relies on several other variables as bullets, primers, etc do, has an obligation to produce a product which can be relied upon. That is a big demand. And perfection in this regard may be a tall order, but reasonable consistency is not. Manufacturers must do their homework (and pass the costs on evenly), not rely on those most gullible to do it for them. As you pointed out, Barnes has clearly done that. It's a shame. They essentially have a fine product overall. (I won't bring other makers of non-shooting products into this, though there are plenty.) But that is simply the wrong way to operate. Tweek? Yes. R&D at customer expense? No, that's wrong in my book. I don't have room in my world to accept otherwise. (Or you could do as Hornady did when they introduced their Interbonds at barely mmore than the cost of Interlocks - until they had things reasonably squared away. And, of course, we all know that they quickly dropped some of them when they discovered what they deemed to be a problem.)

But to get back to the original question, in the OP's case, I'd probably buy a box of bullets, shoot the 20-30 it may take to find an acceptable load, and use the other half box to hunt with. End of story until they're gone. Then do it again.
Posted By: Ready Re: 30-06 150gr TSX and Elk - 07/29/09
Good points, Klik.
© 24hourcampfire