I seem to recall you have discovered the 120 gr., 7mm, Nosler Ballistic Tip is unusually "tough" for a BT and works surprisingly well on big game. Do I recall that right ?
Can you give me some examples, or explain how they differ from the usual BT's either in construction or performance wise ? What velocities have you used it ? Any problems with low impact velocities, say much under 2000 fps., not allowing it to expand as it should ? Do I recall something about that BT being made with a heavier jacket for use on iron rams, etc. ?
Much obliged. E

E

Yes, you remember correctly.

Interestingly, the 120 Ballistic is billed by Nosler as a varmint bullet. It is my opinion that the bullet was heavied up at some time for Rifle Silhouette shooters. I have found it to be an incredibly fine big game killer - in the classic sort of way.

Let me give you some kills:

Bull elk 6X5 (pushing 300 B&C) range: about 350 yards. Shooting from above his level, I hit him between the shoulder blades and the bullet passed to the low throat. The bullet broke the spine, traversed several vertabrae and came to rest just under the hide. Expansion of the jacket is .877", lost its core and weighs 58.2 grains there was lead core loose with the jacket. Obviously, the elk dropped in his track and slid to the bottom of the canyon.

Bull elk 6X6 (B&C maybe 270)nice little bull. Range: pushing 375. Not trying to be fancy, I centerpunched both shoulders. The bull fell at the shot and died. The bullet penetrated both shoulders, broke major bones with minimal bloodshooting and came to rest under the hide of the far shoulder. The bullet expanded to .698", lost its core and weighs 62 grains. I found a piece of the core with the bullet and it weighed probably 25 grains. Lost the core. Hey, I was busy butchering an elk and slipping in the snow and fighting to get all the stuff done before dark. Climbed out of the canyon with a flash light in my mouth.

Mule deer. 204 yards (lasered). Biggest damned deer I've ever shot. Aged at 9�-years at the game check in Great Falls. Huge forked horn with a 190 mainframe and no points to go with it, except for 4-inch eyeguards. Bases are six-inches (I just measured) and the horns are very heavy. Shot him behind the shoulder and the bullet exited ahead of the far shoulder. Exit hole was about 1�-inches. He struggled a bit and went down dead. Very little bloodshot; nice clean kill. Damned deer was the heaviest I've ever seen. I killed a whitetail in Alberta that weighed 378 pounds (guts in) and this mulie was larger - maybe 400 pounds live.

Antelope @ 210 yards (lasered). Good buck. Shot hin fully in the chest and the bullet penetrated the whole goat. The expanded bullet, with core attached was recovered next to the bunghole. Measures .766" and weighs 92 grains. Instand kill and no bloodshot.

The above were shot with a 7-08 Ackley with the 120 Ballistic @ 3246 muzzle velocity.

The following are a few killed using the .280 Ackley with the 120 Ballistic @ 3370 muzzle velocity.

Moose at 91 yards (lasered later, I was kinda in a fricking hurry). Shot the bull angling under the chin. The bullet broke a carotid artery, smashed a vertabre and blew a two-inch hole out the back of the neck. He stood for about five seconds and fell stiff-legged like a piece of plywood in a slight wind. No, I wasn't hunting moose with the 120; I was after whitetail.

Elk, just an eatin' cow at 100 yards. Shot her in the high neck. Bullet blew out both carotid arteries and may still be orbiting the earth. Exit hole was 1�-inches. Clean Kill and no blood in the cavity/

Mule deer buck. Maybe 160 B&C, but a dark-horned five year old who was doing all the right things (fighting other bucks and acting sassy). Coulda killed him at 400 (lasered) but there was no honor in it, coulda killed him at 300 (getting better), almost shot him at 200. Finally did an open field stalk on him and shot him at 61 yards. He'd just taken a bite of winter wheat and was contemplating screwing a doe or fighting another buck, when I shot him through both carotids (just at the kissey place behind the jaw). Dropped at the shot, pumped blood for thirty seconds and was a nice bloodless carcass.

Whitetail at 70 yards running full-out down a hill towards me (Hey man, he was overrunning my position). Aimed for the front of the neck and forgot to lead. Bullet hit him exactly between the freaking eyes. Blew the right horn precisely 31 yards from the corpus delicious and the left horn wilted, but stayed attached to the skull. The eyes bugged out and it was just a lovely friggin' thing. Nice buck too, probably a 145 B&C. Gad, I love it when a plan comes together.

Whitetail buck - 200 yards running straight across a snow field like the hounds of hell were after him. For some reason, I took the bait (it was probably his 140 rack) and aimed about eight feet in front of his chest and fired. At the shot, his reat legs went over his horns and he went down in a great cloud of snow. Hit him just in front of the hams, through the spine. By the time I got there, he was breathing his last. Broke the spine, ruined the tenderloins, did not hurt the backstrap. Maybe a two-inch hole on the far side. BS luck to have even hit him at all.

Antelope @ 210 yards (stepped off). Excellent buck. Shot behind the shoulder. Bullet exited far chest cavity (true broadside that I'd set up by waiting). Two-inch exit some blood shooting in the fascia uncer the far shoulder.

Antelope 325 yards and a hurryup shot. Behind the shoulder and very low (I thought he was 200 yards and held right on). Hit the bottom of the heart and exited the body cavity with a one-inch hole. No blood shooting.

Actually, I've killed a lot more animals than this with the 120 in the 7-08 Ackley and the 280 Ackley, but I'm just trying to point out the ones that are on the top of my head. In my opinion the 120-grain Ballistic is an excellent killer and it destroys less meat than I would have supposed.

If you hit a coyote in the face with it, the bullet tends to spoil the dog's day. Never killed a bear with it, but would use it with our hesitation in either rifle and at any range.

Hope this helps a bit.

Steve

E & DZ,
I just got thru filing down 2 Nosler BTs, both 7mm, 140gr and 120gr.


MtnHtr

DZ- What bbl lengths were these velocities obtained for the 7-08AI?

Congrats on some fine animals!

pointer,

Twenty-two inch Schneider barrel. My load for the 120-grain Ballistic Tip is 48.5 grains of Varget. Winchester nickel cases and WLR primers. The load is hot, but manageable, in my barrel. Cases last about six firings before the primer pockets open.

Please note: This load was developed for my barrel and chamber. Using this load in your rifle might well blow you ass into the next zip code. Please develop your own load for your own rifle and all that fancy writer's disclaimer stuff.

Steve

Thanks, DZ and MH. That picture of the sectioned bullets is worth a 1000 words. Removes all doubt from my mind.
I understand the BT's above .308 diameter are also of a heavy jacket design. Mule Deer says the jackets comprise over 50% of the bullet weight, so one always gets at least that much retained weight. Kinda looks like these particular bullets are similar to that. Funny Nosler wouldn't tell us about this.
I have a buddy who is a big Nosler fan. He really likes the old Solid Base bullets. He currently uses the Partition if he can't find/use the Solid Base bullets. He doesn't like the BT's because they are too fragile. I'm going to tell him to look up these posts. He may well like this bullet.
He tells me Nosler told him they have redesigned the BT eight times. And, according to him, they still don't have it right, like the older Solid Base bullets.
I'm looking for an in between 120 gr. bullet for my .280. The dang Barnes people have changed the ogive on their X bullet again. And, I discovered, a simple primer change opened my groups alot. From .5 or less to 1.75 MOA. I'm about ready to switch to the Hornaday Interbonds for the .280 and the .308. For now, I'll fool with the X. The new ogive may be more forgiving than the fancy Secant Ogive of the older XBT design. But, if it doesn't work out well, the 120 gr. BT's may well get my attention. Or i'll just use them as all around loads. E

Thanks for the info, as that level of performance maybe just what I'm looking for in a lightish weight rifle primarily for deerish sized game.

I was disapointed with the results I got last season with a 120 BT that just penciled through a little 100 pound spike. I shot him through the lungs at about 50 yards from a 7 Rem Mag. He ran about 30 yards before he expired. Just a small hole in, and another out. I expected more expansion than that bassed on what I've seen from other caliber BT's. I switched to the 140 gr. after reading Steve's comments about the 120 having a heavier jacket. Have only shot one buck with the 140 this season but results look to be more to my liking. Perhaps I should keep the 120 loads (they shot well) to try on a mule deer / Axis deer hunt?

As I said in my .280 Ackley article in Varmint Hunter, I'm sort of evenly divided between 120s and 140s. I've probably killed well over 100 big game critters with the 140 Ballistics and they are usually in my gun when I hunt big animals. BUT, I'm not sure that the 120 isn't a slightly better bullet.

The added velocity of the 120s gives very flat trajectory and they really thump antelope/deer/elk/moose when they hit. When I hunt for big animals, I naturally carry 140 Ballistics.

But sometimes I am primarily hunting whitetail or mule deer and have a 120 loaded in the gun. This seems to be the time that an elk of a moose shows up and I clobber it without thinking about the 120. Hey, they never know the difference.

What I am relating is actual field experience, not some technical thing dreamed up by a gun writer whose only approach to the field is what the companies put in their brochures. Nor is a repeat of something that someone who had killed a couple of animals with the Ballistic Tips said.

Bob Nosler prefers the 150 Ballistics in his Jarrett .280 Ackley. He says the blood shooting and tissue destruction is far less with the heavier bullet. Personally, I'd rather enjoy the flatter trajectories and lessened recoil of the lighter bullets. Makes me shoot better.

One of the coolest kills with the 120 BT was with my CPR .280 Ackley. I already had a great buck down and was trolling for a big dry doe. I found one in a big herd and was fixing to kill it when Karen said, "Don't spoil any meat, Honey." My friend Steve added, "Why don't you shoot the sumbitch in the head."

It was about 200 yards and I leaned against a tree and held smack dead between the eyes. The shot resulted in a loud WHACK and the doe dropped instantly.

The bullet entered the tear duct of the right eye (I guess I hadn't allowed for the wind) and tore the back of the head clean off. Brains on the snow -- Cool.

Anyway, Karen got her perfect deer carcass to bone and my friend Steve still raves about the shot.

Steve

The picture may be fooling me but it sure looks like the 120g BT has a substantially thicker jacket on the front end of the bullet. One would guess this would delay expansion thus increasing penetration. Maybe this is what happened in PDS's pencil shot.

HogWild

Great info Steve, appreciate it. BTW, I love the 200gr (338) BT's. They are the best deer bullet I've used.

That's what I like about you. I could tell that right off when I first started reading your stuff in "Varmint Hunter".

Cheaha and PDShooter

Thanks guys. As you could probably tell, my writing is straight from the heart and an attempt to get the right information out there. Thanks.
Steve

HW,
The jacket on the 120 was indeed thicker in the nose section than the 140. Both bullet's jackets in the lower section appeared about the same thickness.

MtnHtr

I might be seeing things differently, but the jacket on the 120 gr. bullet looks thicker all the way through until you are almost to the base. At half way down the jacket, there can be no doubt.
That "penciling through" may indicate not much expansion, but it did kill. Food for thought. Many don't like the Barnes X because of it's smaller expanded cross section. But, work they do. I much prefer a bullet that shoots through to one that looses it's core and doesn't exit.
Besides, we have the new poly tipped bonded bullets like the Scirocco, and the Interbond if faster/more expansion is desired. E

E

In almost every instance where I found a 120-grain Ballistic Tip jacket, I found the core, or a significant portion of it, with the jacket. I had always interpeted this to mean that the whole unit made it through the penetration process.

Anyway, for a varmint bullet, it's a hell of an elk and moose killer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Steve

E,

Its the picture giving you that illusion. Note that the 120 also appears wider in diameter but its not. Both bullets were filed down to .185", I layed the bullets down on copy paper over the kitchen counter. The counter tile has the contoured type, maybe the bullets were not laying evenly flat?



MtnHtr

They appear to be, the 120 gr. wider than the 140. But, when I measure them they come out the same width. The Jacket on the 120 is thicker and the lighting of the shot all tend to make them appear so. At any rate, the jacket on the 120 gr. bullet is much thicker all the way through. That would make a significant difference in there terminal performance assuming the same jacket material.
I talked to my buddy last night. He's fascinated as well.
He tells me Hornady did the same thing with their 139 gr. BT. The jacket on it is much heavier than the jacket on their 139 gr. flat base. The iron ram shooters requested it.
I understand the well thought of Nosler Solid Base bullets are back. I saw a post over at Accuratereloading.com on their Reloading Forum about them. The 150 gr. .284 and the 130 gr. .270. I dunno about any others. My buddy says they work much better than the BT's on all sorts of game. E

E. I have used the 284/150/SB on mule deer and the 284/120/BT. I like the 120s a whole lot better. They
perform just as good as the 150/SB but shoot a lot flatter and are really pleasant on the shoulder.

Hi,
Could you please specify where the carotid artery is exactly? Are you aiming for it, or is it just part and parcel of a neck shot?
BTW congrats on all the quick kills, I admire anyone who takes neck shots at over 150yards....
Lastly, do you consider a .280 AI to be a more efficient cartridge than say, the 270WSM or Weatherby?
Thanks

Bog,

The deer was a big Montana mulie and was 61 yards. I stalked him from over 500 yards away. He was under the muzzle for probably an hour and I could have shot him at most any time, but I prefer to be a hunter rather than a just a shooter.

There is no honor in being simply being a shooter and every honor in stalking close to the animal.

Yes, I've hit the carotids at much longer range.

Neck shots are quite deadly, contrary to what the fools in the press say. The shot in question, being close, was perfect for a lovely placement of the bullet.

Basically, the buck lowered his head and grabbed a bite of winter wheat. I put the Heavy Duplex right at the point of his jaw and shot him. A lttle higher would have picked up the spine and the deer might not have bled out perfectly. Yeah, he would have been dead and it would have been a great shot, but I can do better than that.

Gad, I've killed hundreds of deer and it's just something that comes from lots of field experience.

The .280 Ackley is almost identical in case capacity to the 7 RSAUM and the 7 WSM is a few grains larger. The Weatherby is a big honker and it recoils too much for my elderly body to shoot it well in the field.

The .280 Ackley, of course, needs a long action, while the 7 RSAUM and the 7 WSM work on short actions. I'll probably not change, now that the major makers figgered out where the sweet spot is. The .280 Ackley is good enough for the likes of me.

I would suppose the efficiency is about the same.

I've done some serious killing with the 7-08 Ackley. It is a short action round, is wonderfully efficient and it works well in the field. It kicks a 120-grain Ballistic Tip (a very strong bullet, by the way) out at 3250 fps. It simply murders deer and elk.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Dogzapper, have you had a chance to use the Hornady SST's on any big game animals yet or heard of anyone who has? I was curious how they performed compared to the BT.

Mike,

I haven't used the Hornady SST bullet on big game yet. I WAS planning on using the 129-gr .264 SST on deer and antelope this year in my new Gordy Gritters 6.5-'06 Ackley but we didn't draw any tags.

I have a reader who lives in International Falls, Minnesota who has killed several deer with the SSTs. He claims they are considerably more explosive than the regular Hornady Interlocked. My reader is a really sophistocated hunter and I surely value his opinion.

To answer your question: No, I haven't drawn a drop of blood with them yet, but am itching to try.

Steve

Steve,

I hopefully will get a chance to give them a try on a upcoming mule deer hunt, will post results if successful. I figured they should give pretty close to the same performance as the BT.
I know you also do some yote hunting have you used the BT's on dogs, do they tear them up pretty bad or do they tend to stay together.

Erimicus, I can vouch for the Hornady 139gr BT in the rem 7mm mag caliber. I bought a box of their HM (or is it LM) ammo last year (several boxes now) and have yet to duplicate the performance of it on paper and in the field on Whitetails, Mulies and Elk and all 3 at some considerable distances. Most all were one shot, in the tracks kills. I'm real close with reloads on the paper part but not quite as good. I find this a little frustrating! I'm very fortunate to have a place that allows me to practice and shoot at distances from point blank out to a measured 400 yds. I think these things are the killa from manila. Could be a case of "some guns like'm and some guns dont" but mine does. I do want to try the 120 Nosler bt's, too but it will have to wait till spring.

Just a general comment if you don't mind. I don't like shooting at a deers head or neck. It's because they move them so fast. If you look at the data on moving game even a 120 gr out of a 7mm WSM will miss by 0.65' at 100 yds when an target moves at only 5 mph! Sure enough a deer will bring it's nose to the ground and then snap it's head up. However a shot at the base of the neck where it meets the shoulder has good effect and that's easier to hit.

Another thing about shooting big game with bullets that will not exit and loose their cores to boot is not the best choice. One can carry more than one load for a rifle by the way.

On the other hand the 7-08 class does not start out all that fast with 140's and a 120 game bullet is of interest.

Got a question. Where is that guy from Paradise, AK on this one?

Yes they do! But, how many times have you seen them with their heads up, snap them back down? When they do move their head back down to resume feeding they usually give you a clue, wagging the tail or moving the ears slightly.

When I take a neck shot I like to whistle and get the deer to stop and look at me. Then I shoot the center of the white patch under their chin. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Can you buy the Nosler BT 120 gr. in any factory loads. I can only find the 140's....

That Pic really does about say it all. Makes me wanna section some of the 6.5's that I have for comparison. Of course it's 16* outside right now, (meaning my garage/loading shop is about 32* or so) so I'll probly wait 'til morning.

JimF

Dogzapper, Where did you find the Nickle 7-08 brass. I have been looking for some put cant find any of the Win Nickle brass.

Thanks

Darkside

Those of you that have had considerable experience with both the 120 and 140 Ballistic tips--what are your preferences for use on deer?

btt

Wow David, this thread is a blast from the past!

And I agree, that 120 is a great little 7mm hunting bullet! A couple of my hunting buddies use them in their .280 & 7mm-08 rifles with decisive, one-shot kills, time after time. That's on mule deer, pronghorn, whitetail & hogs.

Regards, Guy

I believe this will be a good bullet for a 7x61 Sharpe & Hart with a 1:12 twist.

120 NBT is the gold standard out of my 284.

The 120NBT should be perfect for that rifle.

Might want to step back a few paces or things are gonna get messy.

I'm thinking 33-3400ish (+?)

I run them at 3325 out of my .280AI and they hold up well on our whitetails even inside 100 yards.

I was just gifted an older box of Nosler 7mm 150gr solid base. Loading some to try in my 7/08. Having no experience with these, are they a pre BT bullet or another previous line that was dropped?

My understanding is the Solid Base is the Ballistic Tip before the ballistic tip was added.

2700ish out of my pump 284 in the woods under 80yds.

They really are a Git-R-Done bullet.

true, and they were a great bullet still mad at Nosler for discontinuing them!

The 120 gr BT uses the 140 gr BT jacket which is cut back to meet the 120 gr profile. This is why the 120 gr BT has a thicker jacket which makes for a robust bullet.
The 120 gr BT is the ONLY bullet Nosler offers that shares a jacket. All other Nosler bullets have their own jacket.

JD338

120 gr NBT took this 150 class Missouri 10 pointer at about 35 yds. This was out of a 284 win. Used a mild load, MV was in the 3120-3150 fps range. Good exit, very little meat damage.



Great deer bullet.

Would this be the same as the current 120gr BT Hunting #28120?

Thanks

Yep, the current #28120.

It's as fine a 7mm hunting bullet as has ever been made.

kd

Good .... Just bought 4 boxes.

I plan to try the 120NBT along with a heavier weight bullet in a 7x57R O/U that I have. I have the crazy idea that differential loads may bring the POI of the individual barrels into coincidence. There is a wide range of variables that have to be explored, but it should be interesting. Now if I can just remember which load goes in which barrel...

I plan to try the 120NBT along with a heavier weight bullet in a 7x57R O/U that I have. I have the crazy idea that differential loads may bring the POI of the individual barrels into coincidence. There is a wide range of variables that have to be explored, but it should be interesting. [b]Now if I can just remember which load goes in which barrel...[/b] [/quote]


That is what would get me. I'd forget which load went where.

Forget which load? Color code! That's it! I'll just color code the cartridges and the barrels.

I am color blind too,

That's ok. I'll be sure to use red and green. Can't get mixed up that way.

You get those two mixed up and it will look like a frog in a blender.

Or maybe a frog crossed with a lawn mower! That's more likely at my house.

120's from a 7-08 are darn near perfection for Bambi!

Varget, 120bt and 7mm-08 have accounted for several deer and hogs for me with very good results,, Get 3000 fps easy in a 22 inch tube