I was reading the "Benoit Rifle" thread and started thinking of how nice it would be to have a "dark timber" rifle for elk: moderate to heavy bullets, fast handling rifle with iron sights or a low-powered scope, and capable of a quick second (or third, fourth, etc) shot. Being just a little short of the bucks to purchase a new firearm, I looked in the gun safe and realized I had the perfect rifle: a 1940's era Savage Model 99 in 300 Savage!

A quick search of available factory ammo showed that both Federal and Remington make 180 gr versions of 300 Sav ammo with a muzzle velocity of 2350 fps. Looking up the ballistics of that load (as published by Remington) wasn't very encouraging, though: Ft-lbs of energy drops below 1000 somewhere between 200 and 300 yards, and bullet drop is over 20 inches at 300 yards. Yes, I know that's far more than "dark timber" ranges, but where I hunt the walk to and from these dense patches offer some occasional longer-distance shots.

After some more searching, I saw in an old elk hunting thread a recommendation for a 165 gr Partition @2600 fps as quality elk medicine. I ran it through a ballistics program and saw an immediate improvement: 8 inches of drop at 300 yards (sighted 3" high at 100) and 1688 ft-lbs of retained energy at 300 yards.

I have some R15 on hand, so I looked in the Alliant reloading guide and saw that 44gr of R15 would move a 165 gr bullet at 2614 fps. Good news, I thought, I have both the bullets and the powder on hand to try this out.

But while I was checking out the 165 gr load, I noticed data for the 200 gr Speer (42 gr of R15 for 2379 fps). Being curious, I thought, "OK, it's heavier, that's good for elk, but how much handicap am I taking on with the slower muzzle velocity? How much will it shorten my point-blank range? What will the retained energy be at 300 yards if I get a long shot?

I ran the data through a trajectory calculator, and got a real shock. Apparently due to the long bullet's extraordinary BC (0.556) the trajectory of the 200 gr SP puts it barely more than 2 inches lower than the 165 gr Partition at 300 yards. Set to travel no more than 3" above or below line of sight, the 165 gr Partition has a point-blank range of 257 yards, while the 200 gr Speer SP has a point-blank range of 241 yards. Retained energy at 300 yards for the Partition: 1439 ft-lbs. For the Speer: 1688 ft-lbs.

So the question becomes: which load would you choose for your "dark timber" rifle? Would the added weight of the 200 gr Speer offer more penetration, break through more bone, do greater damage and put down elk more reliably than the 165 gr Partition?

Or am I just wasting my time chasing numbers while I should just go buy a box of Remington round-nose 180's and start practicing at the range?

Stick with the 180's

Since the 99 has a 1 in 11 twist, it is actually happier with short bullets. The problem with the 300 is limited powder capacity and the heavier the bullet the less room.
With today's super bullets, weight is not needed to get effective penetration which helps the 300. Both the 130 and 150 Barnes TSX shoot very well in 99s (sub 1") and are deadly. The new 130 TTSX is a great deer/antlope bullet and can be pushed to almost 2900 with 36 gr of 4198 and still shoot 3/4" 3 shot groups. We shot it into ballistic Gel at 100 yards against a 180 Remington factory load and it expanded more and penetrated as far. As far as Elk go, we actually recovered a Barnes last year. (That makes two in 30+ Elk). It was a 120 7mm shot from a 7mm Remmag, very fast, into a mature cow quartering away at 80 or so yards. After nipping the paunch, wrecking the lungs, it ended up two feet up the neck. She died.
If I were to hunt Elk with a 300, I'd use the 150 TSX pushing it as fast as my 99R could handle.
All that said, Savage only made one 99 that was a real "Black Timber" rifle. That was the 358 Carbine that is a crusher with 200 gr TSXs.
This one was a "foreman's friend" as no ordinary 99 ever left the factory with wood like this!

I think that 99 is called a sadle rifle, I have one quite similer also a .358 and its calleed a brush gun(I may have mixed them up).
Mine shoots 225 grain sierra bts into less than an inch.
I think I am getting about 2500 fps with that load.
It really will shoot prety well out to about 250 if I remember corectly.
If you reeally want a good woods and open country lever gun that passes the cool test find an 1895 winchester in 30,06.
The reproes are capable of pushing that 200 grain bullet out at about 2600. Or get an origional in 30/40 Krag.
Nothing wrong with the 300 though as i have one too and it's fun.
I shoot 150 and 165 grain bullets in it for the most part...tj3006

That data for the 200gr Speers is good stuff. If I had to venture a guess folks saying don't do it, haven't shot 200gr bullets out of theirs or anyone else's 99.

There used to be a 200gr factory load from Peters long ago so at one time even factory loads were available.

They shoot great from my 99 1950 EG w a 24" barrel. The Speer data that gives 2379fps was shot from a 20" barrled rifle. I get a little over 2400fps from a little less than a max load from the Speer manual. That handily exceeds any factory 180 load both in velocity and energy and yes it is a very sleek and long bullet that flies flat out of a .300 Savage.

Other good 200gr bullets I want to try (and which are a hair shorter) are the Norma Oryx (a bonded bullet)the 200gr Lapua Mega which looks to be a real sturdy bullet and for a tougher Speer bullet they have a 200 Grand Slam. I like the flat meplats on the Euro bullets.... They stabilize just fine in the .300's 1 in 12 twist.

Both are available from MidwayUSA as are the Speer 200's:

Norma Oryx

Lapua Mega

Speer HotCor

Speer Grand Slam

What's not to like, Higher velocity and much greater energy than factory 180gr loads!

Although my favorite bullet for handloading in the .300 is a 180gr Speer Mag-Tip. Short for it's weight and a very tough bullet at .300 velocities. It's my standard load for where I hunt and what I hunt most which is Black Bear.

Folks will say that the 200 and a lot of 180's are too long for the case and protrude into the powder space too much... a buch of BS. It's no different that loading long bullets in say a .300 winmag or any other short necked cartridges, they work fine...

I think it's a GREAT idea to give it a try and I bet that load would kill Elk real well in the "black timber".

Try it and let us know how it works!

I would stick with 165gr Partition given the choices above. I load 180's in my 300 Savage for deer because it likes the heavier bullets, but I'm seating those bullets down a long ways into the case to make it fit.

And those Partitions will handle any elk just fine, and probably give you as more wriggle room on busting shoulders as the Speer.

To get a shorter bullet in heavier weight,opt for a Round Nose design.Spitzer and BT bullets have nothing much over a RN in distances at 20 yds or less.In fact I have found out to 300 yds they work quite well.The 180 's will also serve better for tha tocccasional long shot you may have to take. I prefer a bullet that is not on each end of the spectrum which might just someday limit me on what I cand o with it.

AS for the trend of going to the lighter bullets,guys that like the attributes of them, haven't vclue about what weght bullets maintain down range energy best.

If the 200 will do so much better over factorty loads, Just think what the 180 gr RN will do. A 300 Savage isn't going to push a 180 gr bullet to speeds that will result in bullet failer as many like to call them and I most case ,you will get full penetration unless you are a shoulder shooter

According to Doug Murray, it was called The Model 99-358 and 375 Straight Stock Brush Gun. Made 1977-80. 375 only in 1980 (silly choice)

And if you are a shoulder shooter, the TSX will break them both. Here's a 180 TSX that did that to a big cow and then went into a clay bank behind her. 180 in 338 Federal (wouldn't that make a nice 99 caliber!)....Hmm get a ratty 308 and rebore it.....

I have played with the Savage 99s for years..My present bush load is the 180 gr. Rem Corelokt RN in the .308 at 2600 FPS. The 200 gr. bullets are just too slow IMO as they protrude into the powder space of the .308, especially in the savage rotory magazine which doesn't give any OAL to play with.

A good all around load in the .308 is the 150 gr. or 165 gr. bullets, they work well in the brush or across a canyon..If you want a big round nose bullet in a lever brush brush gun then go to the 30-06 as it handles the heavier bullets better..Browning makes a couple of Lever action 30-06s in the BLR and the Win. 95 clone.

All of the above problems with the .308 can only be worse in the .300 Savage..If I had a 300 Savage I would shoot a RN 150 or at most a RN 165 gr. bullet..A RN 150 gr bullet at 2500 FPS in your Savage 99 would handle 99% of the game available on this continent if not all. Not ideal but do-able!

My latest brush gun is a Win. M-95 SRC with 220 gr. RN Woodleighs at 2300 FPS. I have a receiver sight on it with the apature removed. It also works well as a saddle gun except I use 180 gr. Noslers at 2700 FPS in this case.

I just got it and I think I am likeing it more every day..I am going to have to restock it with a shotgun butt/recoil pad, as the factory stock is too short.

I'd think a NP Protected Point 180 gr would be a very good choice, a bit shorter length than the spitzers, and proven death on about everything you stick with them.

"Imagine that! That slow, old, heavy hunk of lead drops only 2 inches less than the whiz-bang Nosler partition at 300 yards. And the difference in point-blank range is only 16 yards. Who would have known?"

I love watching the light overhead come ON when folks first make this discovery about the ballistics of "slightly heavy-for-caliber" bullets at moderate velocity. It happens again when they experience how effective those bullets are on game. BTDTBTTS.

czech1022, I am betting you would be very pleased with the 200 grain Speer in your 300 Savage. Give it a try, then please come back and tells us how it worked.

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I'm fine with the concept but I doubt the quoted BC figure for the Speer 200. It's higher than the one for a 185 gr. Berger VLD.

From Mathman:

"I'm fine with the concept but I doubt the quoted BC figure for the Speer 200. It's higher than the one for a 185 gr. Berger VLD."

From the Speer web page:

30 cal. Spitzer SP 2211
Part Number Caliber Weight Grain Construction
2211 30 cal. 200 Hot-Cor

Bullet Coefficient Sectional Density Diameter
0.556 0.301 0.308

I don't doubt your quote of Speer's number, I doubt Speer's number that you quoted.

While I haven't used the 200 grain Speer on game, I load it in the .308 Winchester for use in my 12 gauge/.308 combination gun. In my case it will probably never get used beyond 50 yards and it will never get used beyond 200 yards. Within these ranges I can't imagine why I'd ever want a lighter bullet for my uses. In case anyone is interested, I'm using Reloder 15 and getting 2450 fps

Second Antelope to fall to my pal Phil shooting a 130 TSX backed by 36 gr 4198 in 300 Savage EG with Loopie 2-7. 130 yards slightly uphill, broke rt front shoulder, then neck, then exited as Barnes always seem to.
No tracking required.

I have a Speer catalog that shows a revised BC of .478 which is probably closer to reality I agree. I always thought the .556 BC was a bit high.

A BC of .478 is pretty good though and still shows impressive downrange numbers from the old .300!

czech1022, give it a try using Speers data. I'm sure you'll be surprised by what that big, long, heavy bullet can do and I bet for larger game under 200yds it will work just great!

I know I'll continue to shoot it out of my 99.

The .300 Savage has such a short neck, you'd really be pushing it to get a 200 gr. bullet to fit in your magazine. Plus, a lot of bullet in the case, reducing capacity.

The day of the big heavy softnose bullet (ala Elmer Keith) has passed. Today's super bullets shoot flatter and deliver more damage then old designs. Look at the cross section of an expanded monolythic expanding bullet (Barnes, the new Nosler or Hornady)
Those "petals" sticking out with their sharp edges rotating at God knows how many RPMs, really tear things up a lot more than a mushroomed round edged cup and core softpoint. They also don't come apart and nothing but a solid outpenetrates them. Even the great old Partition, that we used for years, will often wipe off its front end when hitting bone and the rest of the wound is caliber sized. IME you load the 150 TSX in your 300 Savage as fast as you can push it and it will kill any Elk that walks the earth within the ethical hunting range of that cartridge.(250 yards).
IMO the 300 is hardly the optimum "black timber" elk cartridge.
A 250 or 286 TSX in this rifle is far superior. Merkel SR-1, 9.3x62,(I think the only 9.3 ever imported), 1.2-4 Trijicon with the BIG amber triangle. "3 shots quick". It will actually do 3 in 1" (on centers), not that that is needed for typical jumped Elk in the deep woods.

Maybe for you, oldman, but not necessarily for everyone else. Read this thread carefully. There are several guys that still like the big old slugs, and I'm one of them. Another favorite of mine is the 175 grain Hornady in my 7x57s. I'm not saying there are not other good bullets, just not many better.

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Anyone is free to like/use whatever they wish. An ordinary softpoint will kill any lower 48 game with good shot placement.
Your 7x57 would shoot flatter, farther and penetrate just as well or better with a 120/140 TSX. It's not a debate. Get out the ballistic gel tubes, the wet phone books interspersed with fresh cow bones or even the old US govt. pine boards. The results will always be the same. The old long for caliber bullets like the 160 6.5 or 175 .284 are fine killers but technology has passed them by.
When I can push a 210 gr X at 3000 fps out of a 375 H&H and go end to end on an Elk, there is no need for a lumbering 300 gr softpoint.
In the case of the 300 Savage, especially, a long bullet, short neck and thus limited powder space are not a good mix. A premium 150 will give you equal or better performance. I would suggest the OP try the different bullets on paper and ballistic media and take close note of the trajectory as well.
Do I hate big old bullets? No, I don't shoot Sabots in my muzzle loaders and this 61 caliber 1.4 ounce monster put this boy on the ground within 20 yards.(1809 British military flintlock)

I'm all about old school, that's why I hunt with a tang sighted takedown Savage 99 in 300 Savage.


Of course I load it up with 130gr Barnes TTSX's.....

I've shot the "300" since the early 1960's on deer here in Minnesota. As far as hunting in thick stuff, I would put our brush around here up against any. I have shot a variety of different bullets in the old 300, but have settled on the 150 cup and core Hornady or Speers in them for decades. However, if we ever have to go unleaded, Steelhead's favorite will quickly become my favorite. There is already a box of them sitting on the shelf to be tested!

I wish I had a 99 to play around with heavier bullet weights but I traded mine to a friend for a model 70. It was a 99R and was a beautiful rifle. All I ever used was 150's on deer and it was a pure killer. My weak spot for Winchesters has cost me a lot of sleepless nights over that trade.

You can find 99 R & RSs in Gun Digest (ex Gun List). Not cheap but they are available.

orion, if you're interested in re-acquiring a 99 let me know. I keep abreast of the auction sites and can point you to them. Decent shooter quality 99R's in 300 Savage aren't very expensive.

Oldman1941 from another Oldman1935, your right hunting is not all about shooting an animal with a 300 Whizbang, but it can be..

I have always tried to use different calibers, different types of rifles, all kinds of bullets, I have hunted big game with about everything including a bow, pistol, muzzle loader and even killed a Pronghorn antelope with a 22 cal. air gun in my mispent cowboy youth..I think that is all part of the enjoyment of hunting if you approach it right and adopt the gun etc to the hunting style needed to get clean kills..The BB gun being the exception and also a surprise that scared the crap out of two ranch kids and was the beginning of their life of crime!

I prefer the 165 Partitian and use almost the same load stated except that I get 2600 fps from 42 grains RL 15. I'm using that load in a tang sighted 99 model G on an elk hunt next week in the Frank Church Wilderness of Idaho. A 165 grain Partitian out of a 300 Savage will kill every elk it hits if the shot is a good one.

Agree, fine bullet and, as you say, "if the shot is a good one" a 150 Cortlock would also do it.

Some ballistic info that might make a difference to the OP if he is confronted with a longer shot.All w/100 yd zero.

150gr 2750 200 -4 300 -15
180gr 2400 200 -6 300 -20
200gr 2300 200 -8 300 -29

Expansion @300 may be an issue with 180 & 200 as most are constructed for 30-06 velocity. We have found the 30 150 TSX will
achieve 2 caliber expansion at 1300 fps.

I wasn't gonna re-visit this thread but wanted to point out what I view as dis-information and old wives tales that a little research shows simply aren't valid in these days of Premium bullets and newer powders.

This has been an interesting and informative thread for me. I've learned there are a lot of old wives tales that just don't hold water like: " You'll lose case capacity loading a 200gr cup n core bullet in a .300 Savage...

This would be correct for the most part 50 or 60 years ago when all we had were cup n core bullets (except Nosler Partitions of course). Shooting out of a small case like the .300 Savage, the 200's and 180's DID use excess powder space but in this day of plastic tips, partitions and monometals, many bullets are longer than in years past.

Ironically after looking around in a few manuals and online I learned that a 150gr Nosler Ballistic tip is LONGER than a 200gr Speer sp.

That most monometal 150gr bullets are also as long or longer than the 200gr bullets I mentioned in my 1st post on this thread. Same goes for most premium 165gr bullets and of course the 180gr premiums are all as long or longer than the 200gr bullets mentioned in this thread.

So any premium bullet 150 grains or heavier uses up just about as much or MORE case capacity than the 200gr bullet the OP asked about.

Now this doesn't apply to lighter cup n core bullets ie; 150's, as we're then talking same type of construction, but premiums are another story! They use up just as much powder space or MORE. (except the 130 tsx )

I'll be the first to admit that 150's do well in this cartridge and are ideal for Deer, but many other weights do good also when loaded for other purposes. I load from 125gr Speers for varmints to 200's for uses like the Original Poster's use for dark woods Big Game... Part of being a rifle loony I guess to experiment with different loads? .

Here's some ADDITIONAL ballistic info that might make a difference to the OP if he is confronted with a longer shot. All w/100 yd zero and a bit different conclusion than oldman1942's data. Not sure where he got his info.

These are with Nosler B.C.'s except for the 200 Speer which is the reduced one, (.478 vs .556), from a catalog I have and these velocities are ones from reliable sources easily achieved in a Savage 99 with a 24" bbl using RL-15. I've seen similar results published using Varget.

150gr bc .387 vel 2750 200 -4.06" 300 -14.69"
165gr bc .410 vel 2625 200 -4.60" 300 -16.22"
180gr bc .474 vel 2500 200 -5.11" 300 -17.56"
200gr bc .478 vel 2400 200 -5.63" 300 -19.18"

BC's get higher with bullets of similar design profile as weight increases.

So we get about a 1.5" at 200yds and a 4.5" difference in drop at 300yds with 150's vs 200's not a 4" and 14" difference...

Velocity at 300 yds with the 200 Speer is over 1900 fps which is enough for reliable expansion with most cup n core bullets.

I tend to agree when using heavy bullets in the .300 Savage with the outlook of PJGunner in top post on pg2 of this thread on the 308 vs 30-06.

PJGunners Viewpoint


To the OP: go ahead and try 200's...you'll like em, it's a good way to squeeze the most power out of a great old cartridge! The naysayers either haven't done it or are just repeating what they've heard before or both. Do the research you'll see...

Have a great day!

I have never been able to come anywhere near 2400 FPS with any 200 gr. bullet in the .308 Savage 99..To start with most max loads in the books are too hot for that springing action and they will pop the bolt open a tad..that is a bit worrisome..My max loads in a Savage 99 are about 2 grs. below book max as a rule..and I have no problem with that as no animal will know the difference and trajectory probably differs an inch at 300 yds.

The most I have been able to safely get with a 200 gr. bullet in my 99s was just a tad under 2200 FPS..That is not a bad load and its certainly a deadly load, even in todays society where whizbang 4000 FPS is minimum to kill a gopher in some folks minds. Many have fallen under the Roy Spell! (Roy Weatherby that is)

At the risk of repeating myself, there is no reason on God's earth to use a 200 gr bullet in a 300 Savage given the superior monometal bullets available today. A 150 gr TSX will outspeed, out trajectory, outexpand and outkill any bullet using lead in it's construction. A simple test in ballistic gel will show the biggest doubter that the wound channel is bigger and the damage more severe. If, in live game, bones are encountered, the TSX will sail through, the Partition will wipe off its nose and continue leaving a 308 hole and a cup and core might come apart.
This 185 TSX in a 338 Federal loaded to 2500 fps, a load that could easily be duplicated in a 99 chambered for that caliber,
was recovered from a clay bank AFTER breaking both shoulders of a mature cow Elk.


Few lead core bullets could duplicate that penetration and none would have all those nasty sharp edges that blasted through bone and wrecked the Elk's plumbing. Interesting to note that Hornady, Remington and Nosler have all jumped on the monometal bandwagon and don't let anyone tell you it's because of Condors!
Now Woodleigh makes a 250 gr 308 softnose if you want to get a seriously heavy bullet in your 300!

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one... lol. Good bullets no doubt but I don't buy into all of Barnes marketing hype, apparently you do?

I see lots of reasons to shoot 200's, 180's, 165's, 150's etc. in the little .300 Savage. Different strokes I guess.

The .300 Savage has worked GREAT for the past 90 years just like the factory loads it!

I see no reason on Gods green earth to use premium bullets, 150's or otherwise, in a rifle/cartridge combo that is good out to about 300yds any way you look at it at 2700fps and less, as good ole cup n cores will do everything that needs doing in this cartridge. Just adjust the weight for the job and get it done.

I just don't get why using a more expensive monometal bullet of lighter weight that penetrates AS GOOD as a heavier lead core bullet gives it any great advantage. The velocity doesn't matter much and the trajectory is not different enough to worry about at less that 300 yds. The heavier bullet also maintains more momemtum than lighter ones do.

Barnes bullets .30 cal and smaller don't have the best reputation for opening up on shots that hit at angles on bone or clog with any type of material before impact and as such I don't see them being as reliable as a lead core bullet at opening up. Bonded Round Noses are probably best at that but that's another discussion.

The OP asked about a dark timber load that could if needed reach out a little. He got lots of good advice but there is no one best solution just different viewpoints on how to do it that's all. They'll all work just fine!

Ray: I am 1.5 grains under the max load of RL-15 that Speer/Alliant say is max for the Speer 200gr bullets and my chronograph says on average about 2410 fps. Those are the numbers.

I got over 2400 in a Winchester 88 .308 with 200-grain Norma Oryx's and W760 (the same as H414). No signs of excessive pressure whatsoever. The 88 bolt locks at the front instead of the rear like the 99's, but there was no hesitation in operation.

Can't imagine the 200 Speer wouldn't work OK in a .300 Savage at typical woods ranges is that's what somebody wanted to use.

I am a fan of the .35 Rem in a Marlin lever for deer in the brush. I was looking for a old Rem Mod 81 auto to fill a hole in my collection and for possible use on hogs. I was thinking .35 Rem, but I found one in a .300 Sav. Upon checking, I was amazed at how much more energy the .300 Sav had.

Well you are free to believe whatever you want about Barnes. The guys I know have killed 100s of head of Deer, Elk, Antelope, Moose, Goats, Sheep and Bear with Xs, TSXs, TTSXs & MRXs. We have tried every hunting bullet under the sun (some of them are even older than me) and there is nothing better.
No animal has EVER been lost and almost all were one shot kills.
I might also note that many African PHs suggest the use of Barnes. One guy who writes for African Hunter even has a necklace made of several dozen .375. .411 and .45 Xs and TSXs taken from dead Buffs.
I will end my comments as I have said what I wanted to say.
"A 150 TSX in a 300 Savage will kill any game in the lower 48 within the hunter's ethical range envelope."

Good to know that finally someone found The Answer to everything.

Personally, a cheap 150-165-grain lead-core bullet has killed everything I've ever pointed a .300 Savage at, and exited whatever animal, at half the cost of a TSX, or whatever "premium" you want to choose.

I have seen the TSX used on maybe 150 big game animals from pronghorn on up, both in North America and Africa. It is a good bullet but in my experience doesn't kill as quickly, on average, as some other bullets (and often much cheaper bullets) on deer-sized game.

I have even found its extreme penetration not necessary even on elk-sized game, but then apparently many people think elk are the same consistency as big trees and just as tough to knock over. I do really like the performance of TSX's (and similar bullets) on game of 1000 pounds or over, but don't find them ideal for every use.

But am always glad to hear on the Internet from another person who has The Answer.

Preach on brotha!

I don't have any problem whatsoever with people doing so, but suggesting that a Barnes X bullet is the end-all-be-all for everything from deer on up sounds a bit over the top.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. A 200 gr bullet in your 300 Savage will do wonders on elk in the timber; have at it.

I'm sorry, but toting an X bullet for deer and elk is like mixing fine single-malt 30 year scotch with Coke. Remember that, as great an answer as it may be, the X and other uber-premium bullets are the market's answer to a whole other question than this one.

But as the poster above said, that is just my opinion.

Perhaps you could share with us the "other question"? (And don't say "Condors")
One wonders, back when the first cup and core bullets came along, replacing solid lead, if the same conversations were held?
As in:"My 500 gr 45-70 lead bullet will kill anything that walks."
(He was right as long as he could dope range down to 50 yard increments) but the guy with the 30-40 had at least a 50% greater point blank range as does the guy with the 150 vs the 200 in the 300.
We have the targets out to 300 and the dead animals...facts not opinions....you have?

The question that precipitated the monometal and other controlled expansion bullets is something like "How can I push my projectiles at over 3000 fps and still have them hold together when they come in contact with their target?" Older cup and core bullets didn't hold up well when magnums came to the fore, and bullet designers had to find a way to get them to hold together under the new conditions. The whole condor nonsense came way later.

Go back and read the question that the original poster asked. You're trying to formulate an answer to a question he didn't ask. There certainly is nothing "wrong" with monometal bullets (though Mule Deer's answer to you above suggests they're not the right bullet all the time as well and he has more experience than both of us put together I'm sure) and I'll likely use them in the future, they just have nothing to do with the question asked by the original poster.

I am not arguing as you are... I am not saying that "this is true all the time and that that is never true". Monometal, controlled expansion bullets definately have their place and have proven themselves in the field. No doubt. On the other hand, the history of cup'n'core bullets in the 300 Savage at short ranges is such that I need to offer no "proof".

If I were saying that one bullet was the best all the time in all circumstances then I would have quite a hill of evidence I'd need to provide.

Not that any amount of proof would sway you from your own conclusion that you're obviously fully convinced of in your own mind.

I know that the monolithic is the holy grail to many...but I still have not become a monolithic fan totally, mostly because I have seen them fail on a number of ocassions..I do use the GS Customs monolithics a good deal and I like'em..but I still prefer the Nosler or North Fork to about any other bullet and I am a big Woodleigh fan also, but the Woodleigh won't penetrate with a Nosler or Northfork, but sometimes penetration can take a back seat to expansion.

I recently was talking to Phil Shoemaker who posts here under the name of .458. Phil is an old time Alaskan Guide and Gun scribe for Successful Hunter, and other magazines in the past as most of you know..He is a cornocopia of good balistic information, especially when it comes to sticking a bullet into a Brown Bear as he has been in on so many bear kills over the years...

In our recent exchange of emails Phil told me that he had been testing the Barnes X, bullets and various other bullets in his 30-06 to come up with an ideal Brown Bear load..Of all the bullets he tested the Nosler 220 gr. left everything else he tried in the dust.

These are the same results I got some years ago in my 30-06 with the 200 gr. Nosler. So I sashayed out to the shop filled a box with old hunting magazines and cranked off a bunch of max loaded 200 and 220 gr. Noslers in my M-95 30-06, along with a few 220 gr. Woodleighs and some 200 gr. Barnes X bullets. Just like Phil said the 220 gr. Nosler penetrated much deeper than any other bullet and by a good deal I might add...

Of interest in this testing is I also shot a few rounds out of my 300 H&H with max loads in the 26 inch tube and the 200 gr. Nosler outpenetrated the others including the 220 gr. Nosler?? I suppose the extra velocity and the toughness of the bullet and the fact that the 300 blew the front portion off the bullet..that front portion ended the testing as it tore everything all to hell and I was out of magazines.

I keep hearing that these monolithics will out penetrate any lead/copper bullet and under some circumstances they will but if you use like weight bullets they won't as a rule, and a lighter monolithic bullet doesn't "always" out penetrate a heavier premium partition. I have done many tests to the contrary, but it is often quoted that these monolithics will do all these wonderful things..I suggest everyone do the tests then make up your own mind, and in some cases they very well may...I am not knocking the monolithics, I am just saying they are not the end of all things great, IMO they are no better or no worse than any good bullet.

I see so many tests wherein folks manipulate results and I don't believe that has any merit other than to make a false point that in many instances is solely to give credentials to the author, and create confusion.

I believe the 300 Sav. and the .308 Win. in a Model 99 Savage does its best work with 150 and 165 gr. bullets. I also believe that the action on those guns are a bit springie and they lock up in the rear, and don't need to be over stressed.

They are a fine gun and anyone that knows me knows I cut my teeth on them and still use them a good deal, but I do not load them like I would a good bolt action rifle. Everyone I have will start dropping that lever just a tad at about one grain below most book max loads. I guess to some thats acceptable, but not to me..I don't need that extra 100 FPS in any big game rifle anyway, especially at the cost of developing some headspace and that only takes one shot thats a tad too hot...

To each his own however, the above is my opine, and I bow to all those that are not in accord!

Mark me as another Savage 99 fan. The past few years I've been using the 140 and 150 TSX in my .300 Savage with excellent results on deer sized game, and a few a bit bigger like zebra. I will also say that I could be limited to using just 150 g NP and be happy forever. As was mentioned by MD, the modest velocities attained in the Model 99 don't demand a premium bullet. Remington Corelocks sure seemed to work well in the same 99 in my Granddad's hands.

I find that 200 grainers eat up a whole lot of case capacity in .300 Savage, and the extra length or sectional density just isn't required for this cartridge. Elmer Keith be damned, there is a limit to this big/heavy/slow stuff.