.

Today there are quite a few side-by-side shotguns available.

Connecticut RBL
Beretta 471 Silverhawk
CZ Bobwhite or Ringneck


There are also some recently discontinued and still commonly available

Winchester Model 21
Winchester Model 23
Browning BSS
SKB



There are vintage side-by-sides like the

Parker
L C Smith
Fox
Lefever


How would you rate/rank these as far as shooting and hunting (not investments) ?

Is a CZ a good serviceable shotgun that will bring years of enjoyment ?

Or should someone hold out for something more like the Ruger or Browning ?

Will a modern side-by-side hold a candle to a vintage Parker, L C Smith, or Fox in quail country ?

Can one actually hold their head up in polite society and shoot anything other than short-chambered 16 gauges with paper hulls ?

Thoughts please.


.

I have a couple of SKB's but much prefer my older LeFever Nitro Special 20ga with double triggers for upland hunting. I'd look at a Ugartachea or AyA.

erich

I've owned a few of them.....lots of personal preference here but the SKB is the finest side/side I've ever owned. I also liked the Winchester 23 but it hurt my cheek bone and I finally gave it to a kid as a college graduation present.

If I was to revisit the side/sides again...I'd search out the 386 by SKB! The 486 was a fine gun as well.

I love my Ithaca, but my CZ Ringneck has given me good service too.

I'm fairly fond of the Fox, haven't shot the Beretta or either of the Winchesters. Truth be told, so long as it fits PERFECTLY and has 2 triggers I'm good to go.

SKB's in 20 & 12 gauge have proven reliable and nearly perfect for all upland hunting.

I prefer the style of side by side shotguns. To be frank they are all I want to carry. The truth is I am really a rifle guy and the shotgun has to have style to my taste.

For upland a short barreled side by side is what feels good to me. My best is my 24" barreled Sauer drilling and I have a Ugartechea 20 ga as well. For the open such as pheasants I like a Bernadelli.

Shop around for used guns also and find a gun that fits and feels good to you.

IMO the CZ is made to a price point and if you are serious about a SxS you will spend more and get a better product. The Browning and SKB have good reputations and will stand you in good stead. The Browning, SKB, RBL, Winchester 23, and Beretta 471 will last. The Winchester 21 is a fine gun and is much more expensive than those previously mentioned. I have no experience with the vintage guns. My thought is if you get a good one you may not want to shoot it because of cost. Above all get one that fits. The Beretta 471 beat me to death almost and I got rid of it. I like and shoot the Parker Reproductions. Do not have to concern myself with possible vintage type problems. I have not shot the Spanish guns yet. There are some good ones at reasonable prices and I think you would be better off with them than a CZ. After you pass 5K you can get lots of nice guns which folks will go OOh AAh overBut if you can not hit with it and it does not fit you have wasted yout money.

I love side by sides but they have not loved me. I have bought and sold 10 of them, trying to get one I could hit with. I can pick up most any old pump, auto or O/U and not be too embarassed when shooting at stuff, but for some reason I have difficulty with the S/S.

Of course I have messed only with S/S guns that I could afford, from BSS's to a Beretta 470. I had given up when I saw a good deal on an Ithaca (SKB) 280E 20 ga. I closed my eyes and closed the deal. It's a keeper...finally a S/S that I can hit something with (most of the time).

If it doesn't fit, you will not hit (to paraphrase a certain now-deceased attorney) no matter how stylish or expensive it is. Trial and error can be expensive but it was worth it as far as I am concerned (cuz S/S shotguns are cool).

It ain't on the list but I feel compelled to add it. The Ugartechea is a very good SxS and I really need to get in gear and purchase one in 28 gauge.

I had one in 12 gauge but foolishly sold it. Truly a fine gun.

If you are serious about SXS shotguns, look [email protected] Sorry to speak disparagingly about L.C. Smith and Fox, but these guns are better and affordable.

+1 on Hill R&G. I bought a nice JP Sauer off of Charlie, and couldn't be more happy. Got to meet him, while in Bozeman, a couple years ago; very nice guy. While his primary thing is British guns, he also has a few Continental guns, which are my preference.

Jeff

A fine list fore sure.
I can only speak to the BSS and the LC Smith.
My regular fulltime gun is a BSS in 12 ga. which I re-stocked to fit me. I like the BSS because of its features 1) Chomper lump barrels, 2) some of the best ejectors out there, and 3) bullet proof mechanical single trigger. I think the best buy for the money today. IMHO
I also shoot a 16 ga Elsie which also has a fitted stock to me. It is unique and 1 of a kind because it has the forearm release button on the front of the stock (LC only built a few of these before they had to stop) but what makes it one of a kind is that it has ejectors not extractors.

I think the rest of the list are all fine guns and personnel preference would only make one better then another. Cost and wants will drive the purchase. I would not buy any SxS which is of monoblock construction not because there are any construction issues but because I do not like the ring on the barrel where the barrels are fitted into the monoblock.
IMHO

I have 5 21's, in 12 ga they are heavy & bulky, in 20 they are great upland guns. I also have a 20ga SKB 280 that was my main upland guns for over 30 years at their current $1,200 market they are a deal. I have a Parker Replica 20 ga, that I rarely use because they don't fit me very well. I am currently looking for a Fox x or c grade in 16 ga that fits me, I have been looking 20+ years.

I'd pass Connecticut RBL, the 1 I saw did not have very good fit & finish-it's owner did not like it. 1 of my hunting partners bought a Beretta 471 Silverhawk this summer and likes it a lot.Winchester Model 23 have a habit of breaking the lug that holds the forend end, I owned a fixed choke 20 ga and hunted with it for 2 years and stupidly traded it for something else. Personally I think the Browning BSS is boxy and poorly balanced.

Be very careful purchasing a vintage double, they have very strange stock dimensions and a new stock will set you back more that $1,000.00

I have a friend who decided about 10 years ago to start buying Fox Sterlingworths. He has the bucks and won't even look at other doubles. He gave me a big book on them. He and his son shoot trap and skeet with them and upland birds. I've shot a few of them and can't get my head down low enough to see down the barrels. He picks them up for about a thousand bucks. He's got one that was refinished that he paid two thousand for. I think that's very reasonable. I've heard time and again they are a very well made shotgun for the money, made as a tool for a practical generation of shooters.

i was told this when i asked a similar question 6 or 8 months ago but im thinking this may depend on how your built....because i was told this i have been leery of buying one online but i actually got to handle a good selection of Sauer's, Fox's, and similar vintage doubles and the majority seem to come up right where they need to on me.....granted im a lil bit north of six foot and the way my cheek bones are with most rifle stocks i have to use high rings to get a scope to line up right for me so im guessing my dimensions arent "average"

I also vote for the Ugartechea (even though it's not on your list). I bought a used one in 12 guage and I think it's hard to beat for the money.

In the world of doubles you get what you pay for, unless you stumble onto a stupid seller. Any of the lot you listed will give you years of enjoyment, plus the Uggies mentioned and a whole slew of other English and Continental guns. What is critical, no matter what catches your fancy, is proper fit. If it doesn't fit you, you'll miss a lot of targets and sour your enjoyment of what is arguably the finest type of shotgun.

Side by Side Shotguns are nice, but not nearly as sexy as an over/under

The shotguns you list will all work. The CZ's are good for the price, but in the opinion of many most of the older American guns (Parker, Fox, etc.) are over-priced for what you get. The Parkers are probably the most over-priced as far as just buying a shotgun goes, but the one advantage of Parkers is that you can always find somebody willing to take it off your hands, probably for an even higher price. Foxes aren't nearly as bad, but even the plain-Jane Sterlingworths in gauges under 12 are getting kind of pricey.

Ugartacheas are a heck of a deal (especially in 28), but my vote for best bargain on a really good side-by-side shotgun is probably a used Sauer or maybe a Merkel. They are built pretty much like British game guns, but you can get them with the same features as a used British gun for around half the price.

They are normally even stronger, because the Germans typically use third fasteners and the British makers normally don't. One of the semi-dirty secrets of the British gun industry is that often the maker recommends that his guns be brought back after the end of the driven pheasant season, to be "maintained." This is because such light shotguns often have to be tightened up again after firing thousands of rounds in a fall. This makes an extra buck for the maker. I know several American shotgun smiths who also make a pretty good buck by tightening up British doubles, even the top-name London guns. They almost never have to tighten a German gun.

My favorite side-by-side shotguns are both German 12's, a Sauer non-ejector that weighs 6 pounds 4 ounces (with 28" barrels) and a Merkel ejector (47E) that weighs 6 pounds 10 ounces with 26" barrels. Both are a very good shape, and not fancy but nice. I paid less for BOTH than most people pay for a typical British ejector gun from a lesser-known maker--or a mid-grade Parker.

The only gun my wife has ever bought me is a delightful little Arizaga 20-ga SxS, imported by Armsport. It has beautiful wood, twin triggers, extractors, is choked Imp Cyl/Mod and has 3" chambers.

I've had more than one guy estimate that it had to be worth well into four figures, and I just grin. Back in December 1986, it cost Claudia a mere $245.

+1 for the Spanish guns. Would argue that the AyA's and Arrieta's are probably the best bang for the buck in S X S shotguns these days....

I got the best double I could afford. A CZ Bobwhite. Since I had to order it, I got the double trigger, straight gripped stock, with 26" barrels. This shotgun is very trim and handles beautifully, to me at least. Even with the thin recoil pad that has the hard plastic upper edge, field loads don't kick hardly at all. I am very pleased with it so far.

The first issue is the issue of fit, because the best quality double in the world won't do you a whole lot of good if you can't hit anything with it. If you can't hit with it, you're quite unlikely to shoot it or hunt with it. Only after you've addressed the issue of fit, do you begin to assess quality...or put another way, choose only the qulity gun that fits.

As others have mentioned, Ugartechea is probably the best value in an entry level side by side. They tend to have stocks with more modern dimensions to fit the "average" shooter. I think your dollar goes pretty far with a Ugartechea.

American shogtuns - The quality of the metal work is great and the overall fit and finish is very good. The only problem with vintage American doubles is the fit, because all tend to have way too much drop at the heel and generally are a bit short. If you pick up an American gun, then you need to consider stock alterations to make the gun fit you, such as bending at the wrist, and perhaps an extension for length. If it's done by someone who knows what they're doing, you'll be fine. If it's done by your average gunsmith, they'll ruin the gun.

Perhpas the best current make American double is the RBL and I think they're a fairly decent gun for the cash you part with. What's more, you can get one with dimensions that will be proper for your frame.

European guns - As a general rule, European guns are really first rate guns, and as JB mentioned, can be some of the best buys out there; but again, you need to be concerned about fit. Europeans certainly knew more about shooting on the wing than American gun makers, but there certainly were a bunch that suffered the same problem as American guns. Still, if you get into one right, you can have world class qulity for not too much money. And if you're willing to make adjustments to the gun, you can probably save even more of your hard earned pennies.

English guns - Certainly the best of the breed, but they are expensive and you really need to know what you're looking at and getting yourself into.

Fine double guns are a wold unto themself, and if you're considering buying a vintage classic, I would recommend enlisting the services of an expert. Otherwise, I'd look at the RBL or Ugartechea and just call it done; both are a pretty safe bet.

I have what I consider a very fine SxS in 410 gage. It was made by the Fausti family in Italy; excellent Walnut, 28" tubes, F&M, PG, and single trigger. It has extractors, but no ejectors, which works for me. The balance is superb, which is one of the most important attribute of any shotgun.
The Fausti gun company is run by three beautiful Fausti Daughters. They import here in the US under the name Traditions.

I have two Fox Sterlingworths.One I have the stock that I carved to fit me exactly. It's always a crap shoot on matter what shotgun you buy a stowhether it willfit you or not.

Having a shotgun not fit you is like shooting a rifle that you just bore sight.

The other Fox ,I got after someone blew a barrel out about 14" up the tube.I rebarreled it myself. Now I can fit both sets of barrels on the same action. One set is open and Skeet,the other is fodified and full

If you find something you like I can help you with a new stock and it won't cost you $1000 if you are not paranoid and a perfectionist.

Here is the Fox I restocked myself.

I've always liked the SxS, had one for a while about 20 years ago. Imported by a company calling themselves Churchill from Spain, it was a double trigger 20 ga. Supposed to be Improved Cylinder/Mod, it was more like Cyl/extra full. I opened the left barrel a bit and used it for quail and informal skeet for a couple years, shot very well with it. It started getting loose and I found the hinge pin had broken out the frame wall of the receiver. Sent it to a shotgun specialist in St. Louis and they sent it right back saying it wasn't worth their trouble.
I'd really like to have a good one, but can't or won't pay the difference between them and a comparable O/U.

but my vote for best bargain on a really good side-by-side shotgun is probably a used Sauer

SSSHHHHH!

Jeff

Oh, darn, I should have kept my mouth shut!

Only own 3 at the moment. Beretta 471 Silverhawk 12 gauge, Merkel model 8 12 gauge and a sweet 20 gauge "Uggie" my dove gun. Want a RBL in 28 gauge next.

sidepass

"Oh, darn, I should have kept my mouth shut!"

I just hope, and am confident, that British guns will always have enough snob appeal, to keep Continental guns affordable, for we that prefer them.

Jeff

I am admittedly a double fanatic....been shooting double shotguns for more than 40 years. For me, the secret is fit and style.....a great double has to loook right and feel right. For those reasons, some of my favorites are NOT the "popular" choices. I have owned and shot all of the models listed and have definite opinions.

I happen to like the older style shotguns with a lot of drop in the stock and a slim, trim profile. My first shotgun was a 20 ga. Fox Sterlingworth and continued with various L.C.Smiths and such over the years.

Of the guns mentioned at the first of this thread......I'd rate them with the L.C.Smith first, followed by the Lefever, Fox and Parker (don't know why but the Parkers have just never turned me on like they do others).

After the "classic" doubles would come the Winchester 21 and the SKB.

The Browning doubles always struck me as a poor attempt at a double. They should have spent a bit more and added sidelocks and a more classic stock style. Sure, it would have added a few hundred dollars to the cost, but after all....it's a BROWNING and people would have paid more for the name and quality.

To me, the Model 23 was an abomination. Ugly and poorly designed....never wanted one at any price.

"Modern" doubles that I like include the CZ's, particularly the sidelock models. They are strong and have decent style, but for the money you could easily get a vintage, classic double. However, if one insists on "new" then the Cz is a good choice.

Some of the overlooked "gems" in doubles are the various Spanish made models. These are well balanced, strong and cheap. I particularly like the sidelock models. No, your friends won't go "Ohhhh....Ahhhh" When you pull them out, but they will perform like a champ. The only down side (for me) is the forearm styles (just because it's called a "beaver tail", why does it have to look like it was just cut off a beaver). With a slim splinter style forearm these guns are first class (and, yes they can be "modified" with a rasp and recutting the checkering).

To me, the overall "sleeper" double is the American-made Crescent Arms models. These guns come with various "brade names", but all are Crescent. They are "classic" in style, sidelock and very well balanced in all gauges with frames to match the gauge........and VERY well priced!!! You won't impress your friends with the name, but you can't do much better as far as style and shootablility.

Browning made sidelock doubles, in 12 and 20 gauges, and their BSS boxlocks were no fatter or clunkier than Winchester's Model 21.
Here's a BSS sidelock:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums...&Number=172316&page=1#Post172316

I have and use my Dad's Fox Sterlingworth 12 gauge. A Philadelphia F S. It is tight as a drum after almost 100 years.

.


Where do the Savage Fox Model B and BSE side-by-sides built in the 1970s fit into the scheme of things ?

.

I have a Stevens 311...anyone actually own a cheaper SXS?

Back before steel shot I actually used to hunt with it every so often, nowdays I hunt with a modern O/U Beretta.

Seems like in the last decade SXS have made a comeback. For a while you never really saw any at all.

The only SXS I ever really coveted I had no idea who made it. I borrowed a 28 gauge SXS made in belgium I think it was at a skeet shoot once. That was one little sweet gun.

I'm not much of a shotgunner but did luck into a Beretta 470 with a straight stock. I tried it on Skeet and Sporting Clays and it shot very well for this inexperienced shooter (early to mid 20's on skeet is good for me). I need to take it on a good quail hunt but I keep spending too much time hunting deer and big game.......................DJ

Five of us went to a preserve for a pheasant hunt yesterday. When we were getting ready to go the guy running things commented he hadn't seen so many SXS in a long time. My brother, my nephew, another friend and I were all shooting SXS's. The only one not was a friend visiting from out of town who had chosen to borrow my Ruger o/u instead of a SXS.

I agree with Mule Deer on the German guns. My upland favorite is a Merkel 1620, 16 gauge on a 20 gauge frame with an extra set of 20 gauge barrels. I use the 20 gauge barrels for target and the 16's for birds. The gun is an absolute delight to handle and built rock solid.

NathanL.

I bought a Stevens 311 when in my 20's and literally shot it until it fell apart. But that took a while.... There are some really nice Belgian side-by-sides, and like many German and Italian guns they can be great values.

The Spanish guns have gotten so much publicity in the past 20 years or so that some brands have gotten to be almost like English guns or Parkers: You'll pay extra just for the name. I bought an essentially new AyA sidelock XXV 20 years ago for $1300, and the price for those has gone WAY up, far faster than inflation. As several of us have noted already, Ugartechea is still a really good buy in Spanish.

Of the American guns I tend to rate the Fox as probably the best, just because they do tend to stay tight. I shot an early Sterlingworth 12 for many years that I restocked myself, but even a relatively light Sterlingworth (and that one was) is heavier than a game gun needs to be, one reason I am now shooting German guns.

There are still some bargains to be had in British guns with lesser names than the standard Purdey, H&H, Boss, etc. that everybody swoons over. My wife is into British side-by-sides and has several, but they were all purchased through a very knowledgeable gunsmith who could both tighten them (if necessary) and also measure the barrel thickness.

One big problem with British guns is that the bores were often polished and repolished so much that the barrel thickness became marginal, and unless you have a gunsmith who can measure them it's hard to know if this is case--and there a bunch of shysters out there willing to sell them anyway.

One shyster tried to sell my wife such a gun over a decade ago, when she first started getting into them. Luckily we were at a gun show and Jack Rowe and a friend of ours were just down the aisle. She asked the seller if she could show it to them. After Jack examined it for about a minute, said, in his distinctive accent, "This, my dear, is the type of shotgun we call in Britain a POS!"

One thing that a lot of people who get into doubles often fall for is the notion that sidelocks are better. The boxlock, we should remember, was invented as an stronger improvement over the sidelock, and if what we want is a gun to shoot and hunt with--rather than impress our friends--boxlocks provide the best value.

I probably cannot answer your questions specifically but have a two Beretta Silver Hawks, one a 470 in 12ga., a 471 in a 20 and a 28 AyA. The latter two are DT which I prefer but I have come to good terms with the first which is a ST but just always shoots where I'm looking (how can you not like that?). Actually, since I'm very normal size-wise (6'0", 200 lbs), most guns are stocked for guys like me and fit me from the git-go. Two other guns are semi-auto's but I invariably reach for the SxS when upland hunting.

Most Italian and Spanish-made doubles I've handled are very good quality SxS; JMO, but I'd "shoot a little higher" than the CZs.

I have a few and for upland hunting I have come to the conclusion that the English got it right about 100 years ago.

Saddlesore,

This does sum it up very well. To instinctively shoot a double it must be fit.

There have been a couple negative comments about the BSS and I would imagine they were made by persons who have never owned one and are quotes from "my buddied said" and "I read it in a magazine".

Light12 I certainly agree.

To each there own and I like my BSS very much.

I have owned three BSS boxlocks and they are remarkably stout shotguns.

My current primary upland gun is a CZ Ringneck 28/26. It feels light in my hands even at the end of the day. I foolishly sold my 16 ga Sterlingworth to pay for another rifle - like I needed another rifle. My turkey gun is a 16 gauge Stevens 5100. All the blue and case colors are still there. By the way, the inexpensive promotional game loads kill turkeys just as dead and kick a heckuvalot less than "express long range" shells.

-

I graduated to a Stevens 311 20 ga. after a H&R 410 (my dad who is not a hunter bought it for me) and after a H&R 16 ga. with which I shot my first bird.

I shot the Plain Jane 311 through college; I minored in pheasant hunting in IA during the days of Government Acres programs (now CRP) in the late 60's and early 70's and shot 85 one fall while my companion shot ~ 110 if memory serves-all legal too. That shotgun was no better to look at than a fence post but I took a lot of birds with it and developed my love for SxSs.

I remodeled the buttstock on mine to a straight grip (just because) and added a recoil pad. Killed a pile of birds with it, in the uplands from doves to sage grouse, and a bunch of ducks as well. Back then we could use lead, of course. Eileen even used it on turkeys, in fact there's a Stonywolf video from about 20 years ago that has me calling in and her whacking a Merriams with it.

It finally got slightly loose and I sold it to a guy whose wife getting into Cowboy Action shooting, for about what I'd paid for it 15 years before!

I've got a H&K (FabArms) Italian shotgun. It's an entry level SXS, as they say. It handles very well and is a good shotgun. Single select trigger, don't see the advantage of double triggers, but some do.

It got great reviews from an English shotgun site, I checked before I bought. I could do without the phoney side plates, also do without the pierced break lever.

About any 12 is kinda heavy. To me, the ideal double gun is 16 gauge so far as balance goes. If I found a good one, I might spring for it.

Well I'm another who likes SXS's. I now own two LC Smith's one in 12 GA and one in 16 GA , i own the Beretta 471 Silver Hawk in 20 GA , Bernadelli Premiere Gamecock in 12 GA, Charles Daly Miroku the same Jap company that makes the Browning in 12 GA and i own the CZ Ring-neck in 16 GA. The Ringneck CZ is a great shotgun for the money and handles in the field as good or better than more expensive SXS's, plus the CZ is built on a 16 GA frame instead of a 12 with smaller barrels. The Bernadelli Premiere is my favorite Grouse Gun for Mister Rough in the Mountains of Virginia and Tennessee. It is hard to beat a good SXS in the upland fields. I also have a number of O&U'S and love them along with my pumps and auto shotguns.

I agree with the fellows that think the SKB and Ugartechea side by sides are a lot of gun for the money. An ejector boxlock or plain ejector sidelock Ugartechea can often be bought right. A sleeper is the Victor Sarasqueta 6E to 10E models available on the used market.
dan

You know what all the SXS purists say:
"IF GOD WANTED YOU TO SHOOT AN O/U HE'D HAVE PLACED YOUR EYES THAT WAY"
My first SXS was a Steven 311 in 12 ga.next came a 311 in 16ga. they were great guns for the money. When I got serious about a nice SXS I happened upon a Parker VH 16ga. on an O frame. I got a really good deal on it because somewhere in it's 100 year history someone refinished the stock and added a recoil pad. I was looking for a great shooter and not a collector so I bought it.
I have to say it is one sweet shooting, easy to carry field gun. It was officially 100 years old last April.

I'm looking for another SXS in the future and would love another 16ga. I'm starting to look at the AYA's

There is a lot of good info here. I will add that getting into SxS doubles is a slippery slope - It usually turns out to be expensive but a fun ride.
I have owned and used all the doubles mentioned by Hammer except the RBL. I started out with a Tenite stocked Stevens 311, moved up (?) to a Win M-24 and LC Smith and eventualy a plethora of nice English and Contenental doubles.

I only have two now that I use, a WR drop-lock and a SKB 200 20 ga. - and the SKB gets the most use.

I bought a lovely little French guild gun last year off gunbroker for next to nothing, and it turns out to have LH cast, which is what I needed.

Nice thing about buying French guns is that they have only been fired once and then dropped.

It is my understanding that the SKB 20ga side by side was not imported into North America for many years, nor sold in high numbers. However, it has made the list above more often than its numbers would suggest I think.

I have one, and, like 458Win, it is the one I use most. It does not have the "cool factor" of a fine English, Italian or Spanish double, but it sure feels right to me!

Many who have shot it have tried to buy my SKB 20ga side by side from me (some for a ridiculous price), but I ain't selling!

John

J.B. have you found the same applies to the current "Spanish Best" that are essentially hand made in the the old world tradition of British Best.

However, today the British best are no longer made that way and incorporate modern manufacturing methods. i.e. cnc machines and less hand fitting.

As an aside when it comes to shotguns I see many mention the importance of shotgun fit. While it is important, for field use until you have the ability to consistently and correctly mount your shotgun close is good enough. You can't even be properly fitted for a shotgun until your mount is correct and consistent. The fitting of a field shotgun entails a movement from around your hips to chest that must be consistent to end in the exact same place along with being consistent in how you end at that place.

I've watched Andy Duffy pick up a New Ithaca Double that was off the shelf that certainly didn't "fit" him and after a few minutes start crushing 60yard crossing clays. Watched Gary Phillips do the same with his Krieghoff upside down. John Kruger took a borrowed 391 Beretta for kicks and just about ran a make-a-brake. George Digweed consistently breaking teal beyond 50yards from the hip.

I don't throw out these names to brag. I do know them all with the exception of Digweed, but I'm just using them as examples of what can be done with a shotgun that doesn't fit when the rest of you mechanics and experience are good.

Fit is important, but unless you have your mount down perfect it will not do you much good. Close will get the majority of us by.

I am apparently close enough to the size of the mythical "average man" that I can shoot shotguns with pretty much standard stock dimensions pretty well. I do like a little cast but don't have to have it--and I have shot enough (and have my mount down well enough) that after mounting any shotgun a few times can tell if I can shoot it well in the field. But some people do have special needs, as the current phrase goes.

Just one other note: Even though I prefer side-by-sides for bird hunting, the only time Phil Shoemaker (458Win) and I have hunted birds together we both carried pump-guns. Mine was an off-the-rack Remington 870 28-gauge, but Phil's was an engraved and custom-stocked Winchester Model 12 20-gauge....

My two "Spanish Best" Victor Sarasqueta sidelocks both have a third fastener and have stayed tight.
dan

Does anyone make a decent SxS with exposed hammers? I don't mean one of the cheap coach guns for cowboy action, but a real hunting shotgun.

Even a good vintage SxS can be a wonderful upland game bird. Mine is a Birmingham made Webley & Scott Screw Grip retailed by Manton of London. It was made somewhere between 1896 and 1904. It has 30" barrels choked 10 and 25 thou. I disconnected the manual safety and carry it open until the moment of truth. Even though it's a 12 bore it only weighs 6 lb 2 oz and is a lazer in my hands. These are my favorite pics from last years Alaskan hunt out on the Seward Penisnula on the last day after of hunting.



I roll crimp my own 2-1/2" loads with an old antique hand roll crimper.



I also own a 1969 Ugartechea 12 bore choked 4 and 8 thou. It's a solid pound heavier. Even though I haven't shot it in years, I can't bring myself to sell it has I've patterned over 100 different loads through it. Even with though chokes as open as they are I can get it to pattern over 70% via component manipulation.

Alan

Very nice gun. My W&S boxlock, made in 1949, has 30-inch barrels and weighs 6 pounds, 8 ounces, same as my favorite grouse gun, a 1915 HJ Hussey Imperial sidelock with 28-inch barrels.
All good stuff.

Very nice pics and shotgun. Looks like you had a great hunt.

Wouldn't mind doing that myself someday. Beautiful scenery.

Thanks.

CZ makes a shotgun with exposed hammers, if I'm remembering correctly. I don't know much about them though, made in Turkey.

My go to shotgun since I bought it new in 1976 is an Ithaca-SKB 100 in 20ga. This gun is hunted in fall and winter. It came with mod and full chokes. I had the full opened to imp.cyl. I recommend this gun highly.
pak

Here Tom, I don't know if this is what you meant, maybe?



It's a CZ http://cz-usa.com/products/view/hammer-classic/

First of all, it is what fits you, and what fits your shooting style, on the intended game. There is no single perfect fixed-choke SxS or over/under shotgun. If you are not an accomplished SxS shot, you should take lessons from a master, and attend some of the SxS shoots in New York and North Carolina to see a lot of guns and get to try a lot of guns.

None of them are investments, unless they are very high grade, in excellent conditions, and you don't hunt with them.

All of them should hold their value against inflation, if you take care of them.

Connecticut RBL
* Fabulous gun. Try to buy it used, which will probably still be in 98% condition.

Beretta 471 Silverhawk
* The 470 or 471 is a really nice shotgun.
The 12 gauge balances better than the 20 gauge for me.
Don't own one, but probably will before the year is out.

CZ Bobwhite or Ringneck
* Not in the class of the CV or 470, but a terrific value, just like the Ruger O/U Red Labels.

Winchester Model 21
* I own one 12 gauge, really nice, that I bought for $2,500 a few years ago. You need to shop a lot, learn the value of the different grades, so you can recognize a bargain when you see it, because it won't be there very long.

Winchester Model 23
* Some are very nice, but the prices have gotten out of hand.
For that money, you can buy a used Aya, Garbi, or Merkel, which are a lot more shotgun.

Browning BSS
* Very strong, businesslike, yeoman workhorse.
20s go for a premium.

SKB
* Some look nicer than others. There are a lot of grades, and SKB owners trade up, so find an SKB dealer and tell him what you want in a used one.

Parker
* Like my Win 21, I have one, for $2,500. You need to shop a lot and learn the values of the models and grades.

L C Smith
* Nice, but the Marlins built in the early 1970s were just as nice. Buy one of those and save a ton of money.

Fox
* Grew up shooting Fox 16s and 20s on quail. Wide variation of grades, quality, and how shot out they are. In 2005, I sold a restored AH in 16 gauge that was nicer than anything I have ever seen, live or in a magazine, for $1,500. Should have kept it.

Lefever
* I shoot a 12 gauge Lefever sidelock on quail. Before the lead shot ban, this and a 32-inch Ithaca 3-inch F/F magnum were my waterfowl guns. Now I shoot 2.5 inch Westley Richards in it mostly over tightly held quail in January and February. When they get up further and faster in November, I shot a 28-gauge over under Browning 26 in SK/SK.

The modern side by sides are very good, and with chrome lined bores, back boring and screw in chokes, they will shoot steel, bismuth and tungsten shot. Many of them have much thicker barrels than the old Lefevers and Foxes.

Look for an AyA or Arrieta, or Garbi.
The Ugartechea in a box lock is a bargain.
Uga made the Parker Hale, so look for one of those used.

I have also owned a pair of AyA 30s. Great guns.
Also shoot a Churchill 25. Superb gun.

This brings up the bargain English guns, like the Cogswell & Harrison, Webley & Scott, etc. If you are thinking of mostly shooting upland game, where you don't need a big load anyway, the 2.5 inch guns can be had at a deep discount. Still, $2,500 for a cheap English shotgun, would still buy a nicer and much newer AyA.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/aya1.htm

You have to know what fits you before you go buying some older gun sight unseen. But if you do know, there is a lot out there, like the higher end Charles Daly's, older J.P. Sauer, Darne, etc.

There are a lot of overpriced used guns out there, but you should be able to find a really nice piece for $2,500.00.

It also depends on where you hunt, how cold it is, the coats and gloves you will be wearing. For example, late season, early morning pheasant or quail, or ducks, temperature in the 20s, I am going to be wearing a canvas coat over a sweater, and shooting gloves. I want a slimmer grip and double triggers, slick butt, shorter length of pull.

I agree with Lee, look at AyA. If it were me, and I had the money, it'd probably be a pair of AyA sxs. Any of the Spanish/Basque best guns do it for me.

fwiw,
Winchester 21s (Heavy Duck 32" F/F with Heavy Shot for Geese/Ducks on the Shore. 26" WS1/WS2 for skeet. Have yet to pull the trigger, however, my future is small frame CSM 21 with 28" 28 gauge tubes solely for quail over dogs. Fitted of course. I avoid action/barrel scratches, or engraving, as I find the lines of a 21 field grades very clean. Strong, strong receiver....

Ansley H Fox or CSM Foxes for Upland Pursuits. The Sterlingworths are to my eye and hand over heavy and clunky. That said I am sweet on 21s and they are anything but light. That said I shoot mine alot, relatively, and it's never needed to have one rejointed. Alot is relatively little for circuit shooter making a living with a Krieghoff K80(also owned 2) but significant to most any field O/U shooter.

Did the above poster actually mean an SKB 385 and 485 rather than 386 and 486? I have a 385 28 that is a fine little shotgun. It only trails my SKB 785 O/U 28 guage on brilliant shots afield(luck of course).

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

Btw,
The one thing I have learned is NEVER buy a good shotgun through the mail. Find a dealer with an extensive inventory, will allow you to shoot a used gun, and make the trip. I'm fond of Phillip Percival at Mid-south in Wagram, NC and CSM in CT. Look for a FAIR deal instead of a STEAL unless you are an expert. I've found the first attainable and the second around every corner. Granted who gets robbed tends to vary...

Regards, Matt.

Hammer1, you don't say what part of the country you are in.
If you tell the region, a lot of people here could recommend some reputable local dealers with good inventories of new and used shotguns. As Matt said, if you are asking these questions, you need to be handling and shooting some guns, and probably need someone who really knows them to be going with you. Seek out a local group of SxS owners and shoot with them.

I suspect Hammer1's query is rhetorical and meant to initiate conversation.

He's handled more firepower than I'll ever know.

I've seen the pics of his reloading room.




(Although I do have the last 220 Swift barrel ever )

Matt, I see you like the Wagram store. I have been there several times with some skeet shooting friends of mine and could easily spend my entire life savings there. They have the largest selection of doubles I have seen in a while. One particular A.H. Fox 20 gauge sang to me, but I did not have the coin. I did walk away with a nice M70 that I had been trying to find for a while.

Notropis,
Mid-South is a Wonderland is it not? I went to pick up some birds more than a few years back and the old gent recommended a stop at Mid-South. I foolishly assumed it would a typical gunshop and not Shangra-La. The only danger in Wagram is going too fast and blowing through town as you well know. While his store front is narrow that shop opens up to showcase amazing things most will never see except in a book or behind glass. That Phillip is a fellow gentleman farmer simply ices the cake... We can complain about John Deere Parts at the same time one may evaluate something spectacular... Love that store. Only danger is driving by it or would the true danger being to find it?....(grin)

Regards, Matt.

At the shop in Goshen, CT they had a Noble SXS 12ga with a decent look to it. It had a pad but the LOP was right. The wood on the stock was attractive and the action seemed tight and had light 'engraving' on it.

I never had a 'Noble' gun so perhaps they are not good however this made in Spain double was not bad at all for the $350 or so price.

So many guns, I love it.

I got a Noble 12 gauge for Christmas when I was 11. It is one of the three guns I have ever sold. I feel sorry for the person who has it now. I hope he threw in in a river somewhere. I had an unexpected discharge when I released the safety while dove hunting. No, my fingers were not on the trigger or even in the trigger guard , and I had not been messing with them. It doubled on me several times. No, I did not have a finger on each trigger. All the finish started coming off after a year. It was very rough on the inside. (I saw inside when a gunsmith took it apart to check the safely. I did not take it apart myself.) There was something between the ribs that would trickle up and down when you raised and lowered the barrels. All in all, it was a most unsatisfactory shotgun. I traded it for some G&H shell goose decoys that I still use. If you did not get it, I think you can find something much better. If you did get it, I hope your shotgun turns out better than mine did. They may have improved a lot in 47 years.

Notropis,

Thanks for the 'Noble' information.

No I did not buy that gun. My 'double' need is flush for the moment with the last two SXS 20's that I got.

For the purposes of shooting clay targets and upland game, which is a better way to go ?


Modern side-by-side, e.g., Beretta 471 Silverhawk or Connecticut RBL 16

or

Vintage side-by-side, e.g., Parker or L. C. Smith ?


.

Whatever you can hit with.

.





Since we typically won't know that without buying the shotgun and trying it over a period of weeks on a variety of targets in a variety of conditions with a variety of shells...

Guess we now have your official blessing to buy one of each of all vintage and modern side-by-side shotguns with examples in all gauges, chokes, and stock configurations to test to see which one we shoot with best.

If our wives have any questions can we give them your phone number and email address ?




.

I've already used, "Because Hammer said so" to justify numerous reloading purchases.




without success....

Yup, you got it.

Though I am married to a woman who goes through the same experiments, and owns around 15 shotguns herself. This means she is a LOT more tolerant than many wives--especially since we each have separate bank accounts for our gun purchases.

After a lot of experience most of us can indeed guess what shotguns will work for us, but it does take a lot of shells to find out which shotguns we can really hit with. And that's the base-line, even if we're Bob Brister. (I knew him quite well, and shot a lot with him quite bit, on both clays and birds.)

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You figure it will take 200+ shotguns to get it all figured out ?


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I dunno how many Bob shot in his life, but it was a bunch. A lot more than 200 anyway.

When I was writing my shotgun book (a period of close to a year) I took 3-5 shotguns a week to the local Sporting Clays range and shot the heck out of them. Tried to figure out why each worked better on some shots and not others, and why. At the same time I observed what other people shot, and with the people who apparently knew what they were doing, I asked questions. I also talked with a lot of top shotgun coaches, including one Olympic coach.

I knew I would be writing the book long before that, and spent the previous couple of years shooting a lot of birds (both upland and waterfowl) in different places with different guns. In fact the research shooting for the shotgun book overlapped the hunting we did for Eileen's waterfowl and upland cookbooks. For 2-3 years we shot the heck out of a lot of shotguns on both claybirds and edible birds, from the Deep South to Canada.

One of the things Bob taught me is that we all have good days and bad days, and judging any shotgun on how we shoot on a bad (or good) day isn't valid. But after a lot of shooting, then we might be able to judge beforehand whether we might be able to shoot any shotgun fairly well. And if we can't, then we might have a fair idea of what might be needed to be done with it.

I like the old shotguns and have shot rounds of skeet and trap with a variety of old ones with varying degrees of success. The SxS I generally use for out "Vintage" matches (SxS or pump shotguns only) is a BSS with IC/Mod barrels. Most of my others have tighter chokes. Many of the more recent SxS shotguns have screw in chokes that would make them a bit more useful at the range.

I just sold theis SKB 485 20 ga. for $2,200.. The buyer got a deal.

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Can one have too many side-by-side shotguns ?


Is there any legitimate reason to have any other type of shotgun ?

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