.

My friends tell me that 28 gauge shotguns are for side-by-side and over/unders only.

Never an autoloader.

Due to the high price of 28 gauge factory shells, all 28 gauge shooters have to be reloaders.

And that chasing and hunting empty 28 gauge hulls is not the way to spend your life or have your friends waiting on you.



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That's a point to consider. I have a 28-gauge Remington pump, but don't use it as much for hunting as my doubles just because of having to chase the hulls down in the field.

There are other factors as well. My wife had a Franchi 28-gauge autoloader for a while, along with her Hatfield side-by-side. She only used the Franchi one season and sold it, because it was such a PITA to load and unload.

Are you saying this is the latest peer-pressure from the (28gagg) you-can-only-do-it-this-way-if you-want-to-be-kool-krowd!!??

To heck with 'em! As for reloading, seems the way to go. I don't visit their site often enough but Ballistic Products had 28 hulls, wads and data last time I looked.

.

This is an interesting [anecdotal] take on the Franchi autoloader, from experience in the field. I have never seriously considered buying one but wondered how good of a quail shooter one would be. My ultimate upland guns would be O/U's, because I like looking down a single-barrel, not two.

BTW, my first exposure the the 28 gauge was with a game warden on the shores of the Salt Lake, shooting a 28 Citori after checking me. Claimed the 28ga is a "killing machine" with its 3/4oz square load.

Never forgotten that, and look at 3/4ounce loadings in the 20 and 12 gauges in a new light. I picked up two DL-105 Hornady presses to rebuild so I can reload 3/4ounce 2inch shells in both of those gauges! Mostly from 'AA' and STS hulls once the crimp petals start cracking.

Your friends views make little sense.

You have to be doing a lot of shooting to think that picking up 28ga hulls is taking up too much time in your life. It also doesn't take anymore time to pick up a 28 vs the others and picking up our garbage is always a good idea no matter what gauge we shoot or if we do/do not reload.

All 28ga shooters do not reload and disposable dollars are not always the reason. Some just don't shoot enough for it to matter. With a casual shooter the extra cost of shells is relatively unimportant. A good 28ga break-open usually isn't on the low end when it comes to buying shotguns.


They also cost the same wither one is shooting an auto or o/u or sxs.

Given my choice, I would rather have a 28ga in a break-open shotgun, but that is based on aesthetics. However, certain 28Ga autos are sweet handling shotguns.

If you are using it for hunting really how many shells do you go through a year? For a couple boxes per year the extra couple bucks between relaoded and factory ammo is negigable.

Most that shoot a lot, and by that I mean 15,000 to 25,000 rounds per year do not reload, and these are not always rich guys. Just people that have made one of life's priorities the shooting of a shotgun. They just don't have time to shoot that much and also reload. Reloading time is better spent working and making money to allow them to shoot. Crazy, but that is the way it often works out.

When I shot shotguns that much darn right I reloaded, including 28 gauge. With group buys of wads/shot/powder it saved me a heck of a lot of money. Time was spent reloading instead of TV and that was prior to the internet outside of work.

On the question of the thread, I shot skeet with a gent who shot a 28 gauge 1100 and I never saw it fail. He had a set of four skeet grade 1100's.

Pugs

No question that you can save money by reloading.

However, you can also buy factory shells in volume or with group buys. When I was shooting a lot, a group of us would often buy 100 to 200 flats at a time. It took the dollar savings down to around $1.50 per box. It got to the point that time was money and it wasn't worth reloading. When the Spanish shells: Rio, Clay target and a few others became popular, deals were to be had buying factory, and reloading became less cost efficient.

True enough on other brands. I was in with a bunch of folks who were very set on AA's and while 12/20 was hard to beat with reloading I always saved money on 28/410 with a little time at the Mec 650.

I also gave up on heavy handy cap loads for the 12 gauge and loaded 1 oz. That saved me money but also kept me from getting beat up on 400 round days.

I have a Franchi 28 gauge that is about the only shotgun I hunt with anymore. I bet a lose less than 50 hulls a year while hunting.

Dink

Pugs

A good shotshell story. After a group purchase I had over 75 flats of shotgun shells in my garage. Well one day I left the house to pick-up some groceries and set the house alarm, but didn't close the door completely. The wind then subsequently blew the door open and the alarm tripped which brought the police. When I got back home, they where in the house checking things out. After the required introductions we concluded that things were ok and that the door was the problem.

Finally the one policeman said to me: "Just how many shotgun shells are in your garage?" I did some quick math and said: "Somewhere around 20,000." Which certainly caused him to listen up. I understood the reason for his question and explained the situation. He just shook his head and said I should try to pay more attention when I closed the door.

Just tell your friends that a 28 has to be in a SxS rather than an OU, because the barrel is too narrow to see against a dark, brushy background unless there are two of them. That'll give them something to talk about while you go shoot with whatever you want.

Damit, you know your shouldn't be looking at the barrels.

Between looking at barrels and flushing birds while poking around on the ground for empties, it's a wonder I shoot any birds at all!

I have a 28 ga. Rem 870 that is a joy to use. It is the "starter" shotgun I used for my daughters when they were young, and a few women relatives. They all loved it. It was fun, lightweight, and easy for novices to start getting hits with right away. Enough kick so they knew they were shooting a real gun, but no pain and instant positive results from a light spring on the trap to throw easy targets.

The extra cost of the ammo was well worth it to turn on new shooters to our sport.

The 870 weighs 6 lbs, with a 25" barrel and an Imp Cyl choke.
Just about perfect for the beginners, or me after quail.

Wait till you get old. It gets worse. Hell there are times I didn't even have shells in the barrels when birds have gotten up. However, it saved time in that I didn't have to pick-up empties.

Yep, I often wonder what the fire marshall would have thought about my garage at times.

Nicely said.

I pick up even the cheap promo "disposable" hulls if that's what I happen to be shooting.

If on a range or clays course, I've got a bag on my hip for empties. If hunting, it's never more than a handful of empties anyway.

They're a lot lighter to carry back out when they're empty, and I just drop them in the trash at the end of the day, rather than on the ground out in the field/woods somewhere.

an educated fire marshall would have thought nothing of it. ammunition in a fire is far safer than a lot of other products commonly found in a home/garage.

Cases of starter fluid, barrels of methanol and a magnesium supercharger are firmly planted in my memory.

By mandate of the Ann Arundle Fire Marshall Bass Pro shops has to record my information when I buy powder or primers so smart isn't native here.

I did some of my very best wing shooting with a Remington 870 pump in 28 ga. I would have no problem with a Franchi so chambered. Thou I would really like to have a Parker Repo so chambered with two sets of barrels beaver fore end and a English grip. But I can afford one now even If I could find one.

I love my mod. 1100 28 ga. I wouldn't sell it or trade anything for it. I would really like to have a nice little 28 ga. sxs though. CZ makes a nice one that doesn't break the bank to own. I've even killed a couple mallards with mine and you can get a 1 oz. 28 ga. load now.

This is complete crap as theories go. An auto-loader still only throws them out one at a time, but my sxs has ejectors that throw em out two at a time. Eeefen Ole n Sven kin figur diss out. Oofdah.

And even old Sven, old as he is, can probably put his hand over the breech when opening a SxS or an O/U, and catch BOTH of those empties, without letting them hit the ground.

Not even in his younger, quicker days though could Sven reach around in front of the ejection port on that autoloader and catch the empties flying out.

Hard-core 28-gauge shooters don't buy doubles with ejectors.

Most of the hard core 28 gauge shooters I know don't leave the skeet field.

Dink

Derr iss at leeest vun! ;-{>

By the way, you been a good enough boy to get that Ugartechea from the jolly ol elf?

Still working on it....

I shot trap and skeet when I was a teen, and spent every Saturday and Sunday for years as the "grounds keeper" or trap boy for a rod and gun club. I will tell you that many of the best skeet shooters used Remington 1100 28 gauge shotguns. For the reduction of weight and recoil, the 28 breaks clays more like a twelve gauge than a twenty. It has a longer shot column than a 20 and has an advantage when swinging on birds.

For ruffed grouse, I still shoot my Franchi 28ga auto-loader the best. That said, if there is ever a 391 Beretta in 28ga........

Picking nits here-especially since the use of wads have become common-but a shorter shot column is an advantage in a shotgun due to the fact that less pellets are subjected to being in contact with the barrel and therefore less pellets are being deformed. Deformed pellets tend to fly away from the main string. The result is a decrease in pattern uniformity.

3/4oz in a 28, 7/8oz in a 20, 1oz in a 16, 1 or 1 1/8oz in a 12. The 12 always wins in the long haul when it comes to pattern efficiency.

If not so, the 12 would not be the gauge of choice for trap.

I love my break open 28's, the lesser recoil, and the fact that I don't have to bend over and pick up the hulls. There is no doubt everything else, except the 410, throws more lead.

A properly weighted and balanced 28 is a Ruffed Grouse, Quail and Dove hunters nirvana.

Most however screw it up by going to light along with barrels to short.

Addition: Get your hands on a Perazzi MX28 with 30in barrels to go directly to nirvana. Next go to your bank to arrange a loan.

Correction: The Perazzi MX28 will most likely be 29.5in barrels.

The longer shot column deal was always explained to me as to be an advantage. You swing the gun through the birds and spread the shot column out. Longer column, longer spread, which is what you want for skeet and pass shooting birds. Right or wrong, I heard it over and over again.

And like a lot of things you hear, it's BS.

One of the advantages of the 28-gauge is that with the 3/4 oz. load most of the shot arrives at pretty much the same time, putting more shot into the bird, whether clay or feathered.

A very long shot column (like that in the .410) tends to result in a very long shot swarm. On crossing shots, this puts less shot into the target.

All of this is why skeet scores with the 28 are so close to those shot with larger gauges.

If you want confirmation of this, buy a copy of Bob Brister's SHOTGUNNING, THE ART AND SCIENCE. It was published several decades ago but is still in print--and is still the best reference on what actually happens in shotgunning.

But JB, in skeet all you have to do is detect a "hit" on the bird, whereas in the field you have to put it down.

And I ain't arguing with you, I'm just saying there is a difference between skeet and bird shooting.

Skeet shooters are keeping the 28 gauge "Cult" alive. At my skeet / sporting clay club there are 5 mans skeet squads you have to shoot a 28 gauge just to join the group. Most shoot the 12 gauge Beretta with tubes and an occasional Rem 870.

Doc

One very nice shotgun and one I have never had the pleasure of owning but hopefully will rectify that error soon.

It works the same. The 28 puts more shot into a crossing game bird than it "should," because the shot arrive pretty much the same time.

I'm just saying it's easier to "score" on skeet than on a live bird. A longer shot string makes skeet shooting easier to score. At least that's my perception.

With a bunch of scatterguns around, I have pretty much quit the 12G. For Grouse I like my AL 48 in 28G. No problemo loading/ unloading.
Cisco

The reason for wads that encompass the entire shot column-which was also one of the first modern improvements to shot shells-for which you can thank Winchester-is to reduce the deformation of pellets rubbing against the barrel. Even with wads it still happens to a degree. The longer the column the more pellets deformed and pattern efficiency decreases.

Top flight skeet shooters are not looking or trying for lucky chips from long shot strings. What they are looking for is centered targets that are crushed by all the pellets arriving at once. Their skill level tries to eliminate luck as much as possible.

My Remington 1100 has a mahogany stock. My son short his first flying doves, a double, with this sweet shooting shorgun. I have both modified and skeet barrels. Since I have 6 1100's I am used to picking up empty cases for reloading.

There is no doubt shot cups have improved patterns.

There is no doubt that in skeet shooting when scored a "crush" is the same as a "chip". When shooting live birds there is a world of difference.

You are correct in an x is an x.

The difference is the top flight skeet people have the game down to almost perfection. When they get a chip from a pellet not in the main swarm it throws their confidence and leads off and they can no longer read their breaks and make adjustments.

There is no difference with regards to clay targets or game. Perhaps a novice may sometimes benefit from a long shot string and luck into a bird. However, that is not what any of us should strive for.

JB gave some good advice. Read Bob Brister's book.

Addition: If a long shot string was an advantage in skeet, you can bet the farm that the manufactures would make shells specific for the game that didn't have shot protectors.

I ain't saying that is what we strive for, I'm saying that there is a difference beteen skeet shooters and live bird shooters.

Anyone who has shot live wild birds knows the difference.

Addition: If a long shot string was an advantage in skeet, you can bet the farm that the manufactures would make shells specific for the game that didn't have shot protectors. They don't.

I do think they make specific shells for skeet.

With shot protectors, and the truth is they are also excellent for game birds within the constraints of shot size.

Batt, I think you know a lot about skeet shooting, but I also think you think you know a lot about wild bird shooting.

You can think whatever you want, but I actually know little about skeet, but have spent a lot of time around good shot gunners from most of the games and also those in the field. That being said, you don't have to believe internet me.

However, Brister and JB deserve to be given consideration.

Game birds or targets, all the pellets arriving as close together as possible is what makes for solid hits. Believe it or not, it is ok with me.

Getting a little pissy?

No, not really. Not my style. However, just responding to the above.

AJD,

I'm starting to wonder what your point is.

I've shot some clays with the 28 (mostly Sporting Clays but also trap, where I average 23-24 at 16 yards with the 28), but have shot a hell of a lot more birds, and not just smaller birds but pheasants and sage grouse. While I wouldn't pick the 28 for late-season pheasant hunting, I have yet to find an upland bird it won't kill neatly out to 40 yards--if the shooter does their job. In fact I've killed sage grouse out to 45 yards, consistently.

One of the things most people also fail to grasp about the 28 is that bigger birds tend to get hit with more pellets than smaller birds. If the shot will penetrate deeply enough enough (hard #6's will do the job) several pellets from a 28 are just as good as several pellets from a 12-gauge.

JB, I don't disagree. I ain't saying the 28 isn't capable. Here we don't have much/any in wild pheasant but do have some wild quail. The 28 definately works, I use it and like it.

I am both a skeet shooter, and a bird shooter. there is no difference. i shoot skeet to improve my wingshooting skills. at 92% with any of the big bores (28,20,12) i need all the practice i can get.

that said, i shoot 28ga tubes in my citori, and when it came time to buy a shotgun for my son to learn to shoot with, it was a 28ga 1100. i love to carry that thing in the woods for grouse, but i can never remember where the safety is. my thumb keeps searching for it on the tang, so i stick to my 20ga o/u. if i ever find the right 28, all that will change.

As to the question of losing the empties, I consider the lost ones as the cost of enjoying my 1100 28 and my 1148 410 in the field. I make every effort to pick them up but don't worry about the cost. And i thought everyone knew about the advantage of a short shot string, Russ

You're saying there is no difference between skeet and wild bird shooting?

AJD

Of course there is a difference in that competition skeet is shot mounted gun. That has nothing to do with the efficiency of shotshells.

By the way, when I shoot skeet, I do it gun down or unmounted to more simulate wild bird shooting.

I also shoot with a down gun.

Great, it is how the game was originated with the intent to improve ones field shooting. Then it became bastardized in the name of competition. IMO it should have not strayed from its roots.

I think your friend is over playing the negative aspect of stooping over picking up empties, which is the same for all gages when shooting semi auto's.
That is a non-issue with me as all I ever shot for most of my skeet shooting was Rem 1100's beginning in 1963, and I had a Rem 11-48 in 28 gage at that time too. 28 gage empties are solid gold.... For me, 410 empties are gold too.
If I were to get another 28 gage (sold the 11-48, darn it all :(), it would probably be a Franchi. They fit the geriatric scene well..

Personally I'm a SBS guy, but I don't understand why an autoloader wouldn't be effective for field or game. And as I recall, back in the 50s and 60s Remington put out full page ads touting the advantages of their shells with short shot strings.

A reply I gave this AM to a fire member on the short shot string conversation. Perhaps it just may make that part of the thread clearer.

There were a couple different concepts going on in that thread that need to be separated.

The first was shotshell efficiency and the effect of a protected and short shot column inside the the case.

Second was the effect of a short shot-string and the advantage of all pellets arriving on target at the same time. More pellets on target equates to more energy hitting the target or game bird at the same time, and therefore more killing effect. The good and great clay shooters also want this. As I said they want to know their leads are exact. They do not want to chip a clay by overleading and getting their chip from a lucky pellet strung out far behind the main stream for example. The same can apply if they are short on their lead. That lucky pellet may not be there the next time. The same applies to game birds.

The 28ga is praised because its shot column in the case is close to square. I.E. as high as it is wide. Which tends to allow the above two points to come into effect. It also allows this to happen in a lighter shotgun that is more responsive in many field situations. However, as I said in one of the posts a 12ga with a reasonable load- 1oz is the best-will be more efficient than the 28ga and will put more pellets on target and why it is the gauge of choice in trap.

Many however often try to overload most of the gauges with more shot. The 3in and 3.5in 12ga is the prime example and the resulting patterns are often not as good as the 1 or 1 1/8oz standard offerings. Recoil is also elevated which eventually will result in poor shooting.

Bob Bristers book really is a great proven read on how this all works.

There are a lot of people using 28 gauge autos for skeet and hunting. Where I shoot it seems there are as many 28 autos used for skeet as other 28s. It sounds like your friends are saying that they don't want to wait on someone picking up empties.

I don't reload because I don't shoot more than a couple of flats a year at most. I got in on a group volume buy on 28s a few years back when they were cheaper and got enough to last awhile at not too bad a price. Starting over at today's prices for 28s I agree with your friends that reloading is probably the way to go....if you've got the time and shoot a lot of 28s.

I agree. I shoot with a down gun as well, but then I do it in skeet as well as SCs.

We don't have a skeet range handy, but our rod-and-gun club's trap range is less than a mile from our house. My wife shoots it gun-down, because she's shooting for practice, not score. (I only shoot it to test new guns.)

But there's another couple who frequently shoots there who only shoots for score. They don't do this very well, but they think they do, perhaps because they shoots Perazzis (and drive a Corvette with PERAZZI vanity plates).

The woman is always trying to get Eileen to shoulder her shotgun, so she can shoot higher scores. Finally Eileen asked, "You mean so I can shoot scores like yours?"

actually a shot string from any guage is shaped more like a bell when it seperates from the wad.
the denser central core is flanked by slower and disfigured shot that have been damaged by contact with the bore.

The 28 ga suffers these same flight characteristics.
It's advantage is the so called sqaure load of 3/4 oz of shot.

It's shot load compared to bore size is nicely balanced.
but with less total pellets in its payload,and a shorter shot colum, less pellts are deformed as a percentage of total weight than with most other guages ( as loaded in factory loads) - This leaves a high percentage of the 3/4 oz load to form an effective pattern.

The theory of long shot string versus short shot string is truly a matter of conjecture yet. with proponents of long and short championing their indivdual views.

I do know you can kill a clay target with one BB - not so much game birds.

After years of playing with all guages hunting and competition clay target games, I'm back to 12 ga. for everything.

ain't a lot of flys on a lightweight 12 for all bird hunting.

If you have a long pull cord and safety is not an issue, stand off to the side and back from the trap house. You will get some great opportunities to practice crossing shots, much the same as skeet, but harder.

No skeet or other games for me, but I do know that the little 28" 28 ga. AyA I have is way (as the kids would say) middle age cool and I only hunt pheasants. Not original with me but seems to kill out of proportion to it's hull size in the 3/4 oz load.