Mule Deer kindly posted the following about recoil in another thread concerning the 6.5x55.



I find this to be fascinating information. Are we all giving ourselves minor concussions when shooting a "normal" rifle? Is the effect only cumulative or actually a result of one shot? Does this cause permanent damage?


And finally, is SICS [Shooting-Induced Concussive Syndrome] the actual explanation for the the existence of so many 'Campfire curmudgeons lately???

Dakota Deer: I can only speak for myself. Recoil concussion has only happened to me TWICE in my shooting history.

@1979 I acquired a Ruger 77 300 WM. On my first outing I shot it about 20Xs, but I did break those up w/o shooting continuously. When I was finished I had a headache.

I'm not certain when I had the 338 WM but I think @89-90. It too was a Ruger 77 (both older styles w/THIN BUTT PAD). I shot it to test powder charge pressures, later I chronoed it, and then shot a group, -1"moa. It hurt my shoulder all the time, but I only had a headache after chrono & grouping.

I believe the 338 had more recoil fp of energy but I shot the 300 more times on the same day.

I had shot an 8mmRM numerous times before either of those 2 incidents. The 8 is a Rem 700 BDL, not excessively heavy but it has a good factory recoil pad. I believe that's the difference.
Both the 338 & 8mm shot 220/225 gr bullets and the 8 loads had more powder.

Later I acquired that same 8mm and still have it.

I have shot A LOT of calibers with friends on the same day/days and those two occasions were DAYS TO REMEMBER.

Some CURDMUDGEONS are BORN THAT WAY, I think. LOL

JWALL
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Son I Don't Know You Well Enough To Miss You.........Johnny Cash

In both a serious and not so serious response I am going to start to use a Lead Sled and see if it makes a difference on extended range shooting days. One shot has never given me a headache even from my 9.3x62. And finally the SICS could explain the testy attitude displayed by some Campfire members. They have been knowen to lay in the weeds like a lurking Northern Pike
and jump on the unsuspecting with vengence. This SICS has probably been the sinister cause that we have fallen victim too. If only we played croquet, spent endless hours studying the next move for a chess game, or watched chick flicks with our girl friends and wives, we might have avoided contributing to our own demise! Buckfever1

Eileen Clarke (JB's other half) has an article in the current issue of Varmint Hunter about her struggles with recoil concussion. It's a good piece - and a scary one.

It's real, folks. It can happen with no warning on a single trigger pull, and it can put you out of action in pain for days. Whether it contributes to curmudgeonliness, I could not say -- but I do wish to point out that the biggest rifle I own is a .308!

I must be thick headed I guess.

Yes it can occur. Try shooting 400 to 500 rounds of 12ga a day for 2 or 3 days. Little headache, not concentrating well, inability to maintain visual focus. Restless.

Do it repeatedly over years and there is no doubt in my mind that it can happen. Big guys whose body mass sucks up recoil probably are less prone than others.

I have been noticing headaches when hunting ducks. Lots of 3 inch and 3.5 inch 12 ga is, I think, starting to take its toll on me. (we have lots of ducks up here and I miss a lot! ) Would love to knwo where to read up on this or how it is diagnosed. Might have to give up the big shot payloads and get more patient about letting the ducks come in closer or not shoot at them. Good thread, I will be watching this as I am pretty sure I am now a victim.

Now that I think about it, I do recall having a headache after the longest Whelen-shooting session I've undertaken so far. Hmmm... Perhaps my body is trying to tell me something by that feeling of euphoria I have every time I put the Whelen down, & start shooting the 7x57 instead.

I find this an interesting thread. I know folks have made similar observations about boxers & linebackers for decades. If we know that shooting can detach retinas, perhaps it's not so much of a stretch to imagine degrees of concussions, as well.

FC

I haven't read the article, but think that concussion is cumulative. Isn't concussion a swelling of the brain? What the long-term affect would be, I don't know, but it can't be good.

At our local gun club we have a lot of members who are now in their 60's and 70's. It is scary how many of the former competitive shooters (read high volume shooters) who now have flinches that are almost impossible to get rid of. I have seen some flinch now while using a .410.

Not the same thing as concussion but definitely a result of shooting.

Jim

I wasn't holding my '06 very well when I shot at a deer this past season, and the scope hit me between the eyes. I don't know that I sustained a concussion, but the blod ran down my face for about 10 minutes and I have a permanent scar. Not good.

I had a 10 gauge single shot that used to give me headaches hunting geese out by Pierre. After about 3 shots it just wasn't fun any more. Sent it on down the road to another lucky goose hunter one night at the motel back in town. I had a lot more fun goose hunting after that!

I never really considered that it was actually giving me concussions.

Concussions can have many side-effects other than headache, including loss of balance, amnesia and irritability. They also can change sleep patterns drastically.

They also aren't caused just by blows to the head. Severe blows to any part of the body can also be a cause. Shooting a hard-kicking rifle or shotgun obviously causes a serious bloe to our shoulder, which is closely connected to our neck and head, and the firearm may also whack our cheek pretty hard.

Sometimes concussions don't even result in immediate symptoms, whether headache or others. Repeated concussions can eventually cause permanent symptoms, even if they're not severe, the reason that boxers often show all sorts of symptoms. It's also the reason that there's been a lot more concern about football players in recent years, especially kids.

Repeated concussions ain't something to mess with, one reason I have started shooting lighter-recoiling guns in recent years, and shoot my bigger ones only when necessary AND when protected as much as possible.

I've heard several testimonies to the reality that lack of any hearing protection, particularly prolonged trap/skeet shooting, can result in uncontrollable shakes. Wouldn't surprise me that this could be related to concussions as well.

I've never personally experienced any headaches or after effects from time at the range...although a rude blast from someone's #@%&^%# muzzle brake at the end of the cannon he was shooting next to me one time certainly got my attention!

Also wouldn't surprise me a bit that going through more than 10 or so rounds with some magnums would rattle one's braincells. Don't understand why anyone would put themselves through that kind of self abuse.

Benelli exhibition shooter Tom Knapp amazes me. That guy chews up 12 gauge ammo like nobody I've seen, yet he remains cool as a cucumber. How long can it last?

I had a Sako rifle in caliber 30-378 Weatherby mag that would draw some stern looks at the club range. The club president (RIP) called it a cannon. He could tell when I was shooting from inside the clubhouse situated 200 yards off the firing line. Firing the thing left me with a "stunned" feeling and headache that lasted a couple hours. It was a beast! Oddly, I wish I still had that gun, if for nothing else but the WOW! factor. My 300 RUM is nowhere near as fierce.

Used to carry my clay bird reloads for the week in coded five gallon plastic buckets as it saved having to box and mark the boxes.

IRC could get around 400rds or so in them without damaging the carry handles. Went through approximately 3 buckets a week at various shoots. Can not believe today, did that without any pain after the fact.

Larger pistol of .44 Mag and up over the years, resulted in only a two hand hold for any extended shooting to support tendons in right wrist. 45/70 pistol forget it unless it has the muzzle brake, and that is only a trade off toward another problem even wearing hearing protection.

I can only hope like father, like son, it will be time for the 20 gauge when I'm 83.

Yep, it's cumulative! But so is tomorrow, and I hope we all have tomorrow for a good long while yet. Would I trade any of it off?

Nope!

One thing that always comes to mind when these discussions come up is Elmer Keith's report that, in his first year with the 44 Magnum, he fired 600 rounds through it. In a year , and this from Keith, who was, by all accounts, impervious to recoil. Perhaps he was wise in the ways of cumulative recoil?

Take some headache medicine before you go shooting

I am pretty sure that for exhibition shooting Mr. Knapp is using 1oz or at most 1 1/8 oz loads. I can shoot these a lot as well but a dozen or more shots with 1 9/16 ounces of steel shot or 1 3/4 oz of hevi shot? I think my days of doing this are over. Lots and lots of ducks killed with lesser loads anyway. My Pastor and good hunting buddy Owen Frost uses a 20ga for ducks and does really well. Thinking 1 1/8 oz of steel 3's should do just fine for 99% of the ducks I shoot at. Save the big loads for the rare shot at a goose. Actually thiking of selling my semi famous custom 416 Rigby. Love it, but a 9lb 9.3x62 or a double in 9.3x74 might just keep me in the game longer.

My guess is that Knapp is using 1-oz. loads, or maybe even lighter. Most of his trick shots are close-range.

Even the kick from the 1-1/8 oz. load can add up quickly, especially in a lighter gun. I went to Argentina once with Federal ammo to "field test" some new loads on ducks and doves. Included were a few cases of 12-gauge trap loads. After the first morning NONE of us wanted to shoot any more of those in the relatively light bird guns we were using. Of course we wee shooting 100+ rounds an hour, which makes a difference too.

John,

You're probably right about Knapp's loads. But whatever he's using, it sure is fun to watch him break 9 hand-thrown clays before any hit the ground. That's quite a feat! Try it sometime. I can't get 9 clays far enough into the air with one hand, let alone shoot them all.

Not that I would wish it on anyone, but until you know you have had a concussion it is hard to get a handle on the symptoms. They are subtle. I have had a good one and know for a fact that shooting brings on some of the same symptoms.

...I guess poor old Brett may not be shooting the big bores anytime soon then...

I have a .300WM that if it does come out it gets 150s. It has not been out for years. A great shooter, but not worth the price. However, I've been thinking of giving it a go with 130 Barnes.

Pretty much how I ended up when the step gave way on a treestand on the way down. I was lucky a concussion was all I had. Wish I would have been wearing a helmet.

Got myself together and finished out the day hunting, but when driving home over 35mph I couldn't focus. Then the headaches came, along with having a hard time reading for any length of time. Restless/irritable and not sharp. Mule Deer was right, sleep became erratic.

Anything over a normal weight .308W-and even that if many shots are taken-brings on the slight headache.


Love my .22lrs for just screwing around and they keep you in tune.

A Nula 7mm-08 has not caused any symptoms even tho it is lighter. I'm thinking the stock design has something to do with it.

I got a severe concussion on Labor Day. I was going hunting to an area I use a mountain bike to reach. I was riding down the mountain on a loaded bike when I had a TIA, also called a "mini-stroke", and couldn't remember how to ride the bike. My right side did not exist as far as I knew. I had the rifle slung across my back with the barrel behind my left shoulder and the butt on the right. Things rapidly went haywire. I hit the ground on my right side and the butt slammed into the ground which caused the barrel to slam into the back of my head. I came to sliding through the gravel with the barrel holding my head down and my right arm out in front grinding away on the gravel. Thought I would never stop sliding!

I have been slow to recover. I started feeling better around Christmas and I shot a rifle silhouette match last Saturday. I shoot mild loads in a 7mm-08, 140's at 2600 fps, 40 rounds plus sighters. I had a headache and felt horrible for the next two days. I suspect the jarring from the recoil was enough to aggravate the concussion.

BATTUE,

I use the 130TTSX's in my 300 Belted Newton. Give 'em a go, you will like the results.

Marc,

So sorry to hear of your TIA and subsequent ailments. Scary stuff those strokes and such! Do you mind if I ask your age? If you were mountain biking one would assume that you were/are in pretty decent overal physical condition, so most would be surprised that you would be susceptible to such, but we are wonderously and fearfully made, says Gods word. A very complicated creation, are we. Thanks and May God bless you and heal you. MARK with a "K"

Jeez Marc, that sounds pretty serious. Take it easy and get well soon, ya' hear? Prayers sent for a speedy recovery.

While we're sharing our concussion experiences, I'll share mine: In '84, on a friday/payday, my wife and I were heading to "the big city" (Grand Rapids, MI) on a date. We were travelling on a country road, no doubt going at least 60 mph, when a lady driving an old station wagon full of kids and bad brakes ran a stop sign into our path. From what my wife tells me, and judging from the damage to our vehicle, I tried to swerve out of the way and the right/front of our Chevette hit the side of that station wagon, then our car swung around and the right/rear hit the station wagon. I slammed into my wife sitting in the front/passenger seat hard enough to break and displace both her collar bones. My head went through her window and my leg bent the floor shifter flat to the right. The passenger door bulged outward about 6 inches. I wound up laying on my wife, unconscious. She tried to push me off but the excrutiating pain in her shoulders prevented her from doing so. This happened around 6:00 p.m. They say I began talking and asking what happened about 15 minutes later, but I have no memory until midnight when I woke up and became aware we were in the emergency room. Talk about a headache! I had a severe concussion and whiplash. We went home from the hospital a couple days later, but my wife's problems were just beginning. Her collar bones were still displaced as evidenced by the jagged ends of the fractured bones trying to poke through her skin. I drove her back to the hospital where they tried unsuccessfully to put her bones back in place manually while she sat awake on the examining table. She said she has never before experienced pain to the degree she did when that jackass was reefing on her shoulders, trying to set her collar bones back together. Finally, they took her to surgery where they pieced her back together. She wore a brace for several weeks. My recovery included physical therapy for a couple weeks where they used ultrasonic massage and intermittent traction on my neck. I missed a month of college classes but still managed to graduate at the top of my class.

We all see how Strict The refs are at the pro football level for helmet to helmet hits.Lots of former players who suffered many concussions wound up with Alzheimer's at an early age.Guys who are in The Army,Navy and Marines who are shooting heavy Artillery and also those exposed to IED`s are getting concussions sometimes on a daily basis.They are having all kinds of problems from this when they get home.Probably not a good idea to shoot heavy recoiling Shotguns and Rifles on a steady basis.

I turned 61 yesterday. I had a heart attack 6 years ago so I guess I am susceptible to clotting and plugged arteries. I try to stay in shape by bicycling and backpacking. This episode really fouled up my deer season though. Cost me my elk hunt. But I did get a buck not far from the road in second season so it's all good!

Moral: Watch those rifles. You can get a concussion from one without pulling the trigger!

Glad you got a deer, hope future seasons go better for you!

Interested in a 416 Rigby or a 340 Tyrannosaur? Maybe a nice light 348AI?

Ever notice how many curmudgeons post at crazy hours of the night on the 'Campfire?!?

Seriously, this is something that I had never thought about nor heard of previously. I suppose it is time to be a little more careful with those goose loads, especially slipping one in for my kids to blast with.

I do see one good result of this information: we all have a valid REASON (not excuse) to pick up another few guns. You know, we need the correct recoiling gun for each situation! We might even be able to get a doctor's note recommending such. This is gonna be good!

jd...................ylesrevda esiwrehto em detceffa it sah ro noegdumruc a gnieb ro gnitsop itin etal htiw od ot gnihton sah liocer taht erus m'I

Priceless.

Long live the 223AI.....

That's even more priceless!

Ted

Dakota Deer: re: doctors note; I think DR. KEN HOWELL might be persuaded to give us all PRESCRIPTIONS for concussion protection, i.e. lighter recoiling GUNS. lol

Seriously, those two occasions with me were the only times I noted any problem/problems at all. Both were sufficient recoil and VIRTUALLY no recoil pads. IIRC one was about '79-80 the other was about '89-90.

I learned a long time ago HOW to hold a rifle tight to my shoulder w/trigger hand yet NOT to stiffen my shoulder and back to try and stop recoil.

If you can allow your shoulder & back to go w/the flow of recoil, it will NOT HURT in most cases. The 375 HH is the largest caliber rifle I have shot any at all and it only PUSHED. I SUSPECT there are a few CANNONS that have MUCH MORE recoil than a 375.

This thread MIGHT give me a reason to CONSIDER a 260/6.5 and Dr. Howell's prescription would smooth it out w/my wife.

JWALL
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Son I Don't Know You Well Enough To Miss You............Johnny Cash

I have a great 6.5x55 but to use it I will have to reprogram 40 years of Firearm Marketing departments advertising the need for Magnums and how they make a marginal shot a good one! But sir the deer died with my .243 was that a lucky shot? All of this is probably due to an 870 shotgun I used as a kid at trap league that gave me large black and blue marks every week. Only gun I had and I just had to shoot. Lucky the range made us use ear protection.
To be young and bullet proof again....... Buckfever1

You may well be on to something here.......



Casey

"I learned a long time ago how to hold a rifle tight to my shoulder...."

This comment brought to mind a question I've had for a long time. Why do the armed forces seem to teach holding the AR style rifles with the butt near the top, or on top of the shoulder?

I realize these are normally .223 (i.e. light recoiling) but how do they attain proper control of the rifle?

I would appreciate any explanation the campfire members can provide.

Jim

What an eye opener this thread is.

I loaded twenty 400 grain Barnes spire points over a stiff charge of 4198 for my 45.70 last year. Tried to dial them in, but my Ruger did not like them. Wound up shooting all twenty and then some Hornady Revolution stuff to get it back to zero. Maybe 25 - 26 shots total.

Could not remember driving home and wifey kept asking what was wrong. She said I was stranger that usual.

My question to you gun gurus is this:

Can I draw disability from this? Do I have a case?

I don't know about disability, but I'm wondering if my health insurance will cover the cost of a new rifle if Dr. Howell prescribed it.

No? Oh well, it was worth a try.

10ntario Jim: Not much help with military intelligence,lol.

My best advice is: DON'T TRY THEIR TECHNIQUE with a rifle that

has MUCH RECOIL at all. I suspect dislocated shoulders, broken collar bones etc. I give you credit for that much common sense.

JWALL
--------------

Son I Don't Know You Well Enough To Miss You.........Johnny Cadh

i was describing to someone just the other day about how it's not the rifle stock snapping back into my shoulder that bothers me, it's that feeling of someone slapping you in the back of the head repeatedly that i didn't like about big rifles.

that makes sense, seeing this, that i was describing this very thing.

Well I'll be darn. I had no idea so many of us suffered from recoil headache. Also I had no clue it could be serious. All I knew was that I was and am becoming less and less recoil tolerant. I sold a very fine 30/338 because if I shot it more than a couple times I'd get a headache and feel lousy for the rest of the day. I've just finished putting together a 7x57, it shoots good and feels well balanced. I'm thinking it might see a lot of service.

I can see it now, the new Campfire Battery;
.223 AI
6.5x55
.22 Hornet

As to recoil, I suffered a PVD(posterior vitreous detachment) about 7 months ago. That is were we get vision ," floaters" as we age. The fluid in our eyes develops a ,"skin" , on the interior surface of our eyes. A PVD is caused by the skin pulling away from the surface of the eye.

I was unlucky, mine stuck dead center of my retina. OK at bedtime, legally blind in my left eye when I woke up the next morning. After several months it finally pulled free, tearing my retina in several places.

After a few laser surgeries to seal the holes my doc said I could resume normal activities, ya right! it was my dominate eye.

He did tell me no more heavy recoil shooting. My doc also told me not to shoot any heavy recoiling hand guns either.

He said that the recoil can create an impact all the way up the arms, shoulders and neck causing shock to the retina.

When I asked how much he said lay off the .44mag and the 300gr. long Colts for at least a year.

A PVD is caused by the skin pulling away from the surface of the eye.

ersatz = Those stupid and ignorant rubber combs on T/C buttstocks.

I've been working on being a curmudgeon for years and credited it to age and effort. Now, you tell me it's caused by shooting. All that effort for nothing.

doubletap,

Just think of recoil effects as helping you toward your goal.

I think a deceased Uncle of mine likely had a rule that applies to shooting. He was known for a huge family of sons and daughters. He also took a lot of razzing about it in his 50's, and with a young wife on into his late sixties.

When razzed about it his standard reply became."In my youth I used to do it all night long, now in my sixties it take takes all night to do it. But you know, it's just as much fun as it ever was!"

I THINK THAT MIGHT BE WHAT KILLED HIM.