I have been scrubbing the bores of my barrels out rigorously after each session at the range. I could never get the copper out. I read Mule Deer's testimony about Montana Extreme so I tried it. It did not clean the copper out like I expected. So I added the copper solvent and the copper cream to my regimen. It was still an onerous chore.

A few weeks ago my full custom rifle came back from the gunsmith finally complete after 3-4 years. I took it to the range for sighting in. When I returned I thought about the cleaning that awaited me and sighed. As I was running a patch with Montana Extreme bore cleaner through the barrel I gave some thought to the tip. I was using a Parker-Hale tip that was a pretty tight fit with the patch on it. I wondered to myself, "What would happen if I used a slotted tip and just soaked the patch with bore cleaner?" So I tried it, soaking the bore and letting the rifle lie overnight. The next morning I ran some wet and dry patches through the bore. Then I got out my bore light to see how much of a chore remained. The bore was not completely free of copper, but there was so little that it was not worth any more effort. I tried this again last weekend with the same result. Mule Deer is right and it helps me.

The rifle is in .308 Winchester. It has a Krieger barrel with a 1-10 inch twist. I think it has a very short throat for 165 grain Ballistic Tips but it was chambered so long ago the gunsmith does not recall it. I was not getting the accuracy I wanted with 165-168 grain bullets. I decided that I needed 180 grain bullets for the faster twist. The accuracy did not improve with the heavier bullets. So against all inclination I tried 150 grain bullets. I used Mule Deer's load of Varget with three different 150 grain bullets so that the bullet would be the only variable. All the 150 grain bullets shot better, but a simple flat base cup and core spitzer shot into under an inch. I suspect it matches the short throat better.

My load development is over. That load is more than accurate enough for me, particularly considering that all the scope choices I have are a 4x Zeiss Conquest that many tell me won't let me see anything and a Zeiss Conquest variable that others say could fail me at any moment.

So with some patience and thought, Mule Deer was right twice and I don't have to scrub bores or develop loads for this rifle any more.

Cheers,

GrimJim

Glad it worked out!

Using too tight a patch when trying to get something inside the bore is a common mistake. I have seen people do it not only with cleaning solvents, but when installing Dyna Bore Coat. Neither works very well when you're pushing most of the stuff out the muzzle.

I'm really surprised that a full blown custom rifle won't shoot itty bitty groups with Varget and 165 ballistic tips. They should be piling into one ragged hole. Is the scope proven? Are the bases tight? Fully prepped brass? Flinch

I'm suprised people clean their bore.

People who shoot aren't.

"I'm really surprised that a full blown custom rifle won't shoot itty bitty groups with Varget and 165 ballistic tips. They should be piling into one ragged hole"

Me, too.

"Is the scope proven? Are the bases tight? Fully prepped brass?"

Sigh!

GrimJim

Oh great.. here we go
now everyone will be getting rid of their single-shots and bolt guns to buy into John's pump and semi-auto craze....LOL

Mule Deer - WITHOUT starting another thread - I've seen a LITTLE mention of "Outers Foul Out". I have one rifle shot a lot more than others. Some yrs. back I got O F O, used it and it worked great for me. The coating from the reverse electrolysis was pretty thick. I had to scrub the rod pretty good to clean it.
I also used the cop out and it worked.

My Question - How does O F O compare in effectiveness, ease of use, and time involved with the Montana products?

Thanks, Jerry

Too late! I bought an old 760 a few months ago after reading that article!

JV

JWALL,

I have a Foul-Out II somewhere around here. Haven't used it in years. It was a major PITA compared to using the new solvents.

M D - Okay, It's been quite a while since I used mine because I haven't shot 1 rifle enough to need it. I've been swapping my usage between diff. rifles. (Normal bore cleaning works)

I cleaned 1 barrel for myself and another for a close friend and for whatever reason I didn't have any real problem and I didn't mind cleaning my friends. (actually glad to do it)

I set them up, at diff. times, at night and let it work for ? no. of hours and that was all there was to it.

I suppose cleaning the rod was the only effort involved. MAYBE I was lucky but I like mine.

THANKS AGAIN Jerry

Mule Deer - This is of no real consequence BUT it kept buggin' me till I had to check.

My Outer's is a Foul Out II also.

By further explanation - MANY rifles have come and gone so that has some bearing on my lack of need to use OFO II.

Basically, I had already accomplished the majority of load development and bullet testing by the time I got the system.

My "ole meat in the pot" is my first Rem M 6 270 W and I did a lot of testing and target shooting PLUS hunting with it. I REMOVED the barrel and used the Foul Out w/o complications.

NOW I'm interested in a few new bullets & powders, and doing some pressure testing, soooo I may be shooting my RESIDENT rifles MORE and need to use the cleaning system more often.

Grim Jim, I'm not at all trying to hi-jack the thread or discourage anyone from using the Montana products.

THANKS GUYS

I love this statement!

Another question on this subject: Is anyone using Wipe Out? I have heard nothing but rave reviews of the stuff. Spray it in, let it set, wipe it out. Foamy stuff that really expands once you shoot it into the bore.

It seems to work like a charm to me, but like everyone else, I am still looking for the next best thing so to speak.

One thing you have to be careful of is that the foam expands sooo much, you have to be very careful about getting it on your rifle stock's finish. Never noticed any inadvertent damage to the factory poly/epoxy finishes, but look out on your older rifles like pre-64 Winchesters, etc that don't have the new space age, 21st century bullet proof stock finish. How I came to that conclusion is nobody's business but mine. Luckily, I am real good at refinishing stocks.

I remember another one of J.B.'s article where he said he isn't going to clean any more rifles until accuracy suffers. That is one of my favorites, and i have followed the example. So far so good!

Godogs57,

Wipe-Out also makes a liquid version that goes into the bore the conventional way, on a cotton patch.

Montana X-Treme works the same way, but comes in a couple of different strengths (Copper Solvent and Copper Killer) for varying degrees of fouling.

Same here!! I'd sell it, if I thought I could find someone to buy it....

Bighorn - I musta done summin wrong for it to be easy! !

I was impressed with the ease and success of O F O II.

Shoot me a price, I have two friends who are interested.

If you don't mind...what trouble did you have?

I had no trouble using it at all. It's just that compared to using Wipe Out, I prefer the WO ease of use, and results.

I think I paid around $100 for it new- I would sell it for $45, plus shipping. Pm me if you are interested.

Bighorn - Probably, I'll be in St.Louis all next week on business trip.
Give me a little time.

Without reading Mule Deer's article, I can't comment on it. I have an enormous amount of respect for the man and so won't make a comment on his technic I'm sure it's great. However, one of the things that I still employ from the John Burn's videos "How to shoot beyond belief" was to soak the copper from a barrel. He shows you how to plug the breach of a barrel and then drop copper solvent down the bore to apply a much more liberal amount of copper disolving reagent to the bore without scrubbing.

It's a great method, I can take a barrel from very copper fouled to entirely copper free with usually something on the order of 10 to 12 patches. Very effective, although I've learned to use a rubber plug with a hole drilled in the back of it and an old 22 jag glued into place to plug the breach. It takes a little bit of time but is very effortless and effective.

I'm often surprised that more people don't use it or comment on it.

Cross

On Saturday and today, at least, the rifle shoots 165 and 168 grain Ballistic Tips quite well, if not into itty bitty one ragged hole groups.

Cheers,

GrimJim

Clean the bore? Now that's a new idea.