Ok fellas, I am building a 338-06 but recently its been brought
to my attention that the 338-06 A Square is not the same as
a standard 30-06 necked up to 338. I have looked in several
reloading manuals and the dimensions differ in reguards to
shoulder angle. Can some one clear this up for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

They are one and the same. A-Square just worked the SAAMI effort for the standard 338-06 to "legitimize" the round. The drawings in the Speer #12 and A-Square manuals shows all to be the same save for a 30 minute difference in shoulder angle which is meaningless with proper headspace. I have been shooting one for years and use Winchester 30-06 brass and a 338 expander plug and do not bump the shoulder. I have also fired the factory Weatherby 338-06 A-Square load with no issue. Cliff LaBounty did the rebore/chamber on mine long ago. Used it just a week ago to take a nice bull elk.

Thanks for the info, I want to get the right dies for what I am
building.

How can they be the same if one has a 17 degree shoulder and the other has a 34 degree shoulder?

I admit that the a-square cartridge will chamber in a 338-06, but even with proper headspace it is headspacing on the point of the shoulder, not the shoulder itself.

Loads that are sized with the 17 degree shoulder dies will not chamber in a rifle cut for the a-square cartridge.

Better make sure to get the right dies, or it will be harder on your brass.

I guess I will be putting a call into Redding tomorrow. There are to many conflicting drawings out there. I am about to
change my mind and go with 338 win mag.

just get the standard 338-06 thats what i did. i can tell you 338-06 A-Square feed, chamber and fire just fine in mine. course you cant go wrong with its big brother but i didnt need the extra velocity of a magnum.

Rattler

My Nosler 4th and 5th edition manuals give identical measurements
for the .338-06 and and the .338-06 A Square.

Am I the one that is confused?

1B

1B

No! You are not the only one who is confused. In different manuals, I can find about 5 or 6 different versions of same. The version is the Nosler is what I consider "Standard". However, even the drawing in the A-Square manual is different. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But I also believe the differences are negligible. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

the9.3guy

There is a fair amount of difference in these two calibers. I was nearly certain, but before I made a post I called Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool. Dave is coming here in a day or so and will post what the differences are.
Charlie

Charlie,

Thanks for letting us know... I'll be looking forward to your post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

the9.3guy

Ditto, I was hoping Charlie could shed some light on this.

FWIW.

This discussion is complicated enough to keep our terminology
as clear as possible. Cartridges of the World mentions a 338
A Square that is a muxch hotter belted round! Obviously it
sleeps with the fishes in terms of frequency of use these
days. The .338-06 A Square is the critter in question here.

1B

Even though there have been attempts to make the .338-06 a factory round (as with A-Square) so far it has pretty much resisted any such effort. It will apparently always be primarily a wildcat, and the "standard" version will probably always be the .30-06 necked up, with no changes in the case except bore diameter.

The two .338-06's I've had featured this chamber--and while .338-06 A-Square ammo would fit OK, it did not always go bang. This was partially due to the fact that it was sent to me for "field-testing" during the last days of Art Alphin's total control of the company, and was some of the worst ammo I've ever seen. The bullets were seated visibly out of round, there were varying dimensions in brass, headstamps were half-off the cartridge head, etc. Today I probably wouldn't even fire the stuff, but I was more naive then.

How much you want to fool around when making wildcat cases depends on your temperament and enthusiasm for rifle-dinking. I have too many rifles to waste time on weird shoulder angles (even Ackley) which don't make any real difference in the field. If I ever do another .338-06 it will be the standard version, which simply requires running the neck of a boring old .30-06 case over an expander.

MD

Didn`t Weatherby give some life to the A-square round by chambering it at one time??

yes, then they screwed up the chamber and ammo dimensions. Ammo was just a 30-06 necked up to .338, chamber was cut to 338-06 A-Square dimensions. Gave the brass a .006 run at the chamber on the first firing and left a significant bulge just ahead of the case web.

Here's a twist. The factory Redding label on my dies reads "338-06". The label stuck on there by the retailer with the bar code reads "338-06 A Square". So which label is correct. Hrnhuntr, I wished you would have never opened this can of worms. The good news is, the rifle shoots like a dream. I guess I shouldnt worry to much about it.

Roads

Roads, I am doing the standard but the two variations that Redding lists are 338-06 A Square and 388-06 imp 40. Do
to the fact I won't be full length resizing anyway it isn't a
huge deal but I would like the dies to be a match to my
chamber.

Not sure where the 17 degree vs. 34 degree came from? Last I recall 30 minutes is 1/2 a degree so that is the shoulder angle difference between the Speer and A-Square manuals. I have both RCBS and Redding dies, both say 338-06. I have used Weatherby 338-06 A-Square (Norma brass) ammo and brass as well. All works fine.

I talked with Redding's technical services today.

At first the guy said only two .338-06 sets are
made a standard .338-06 and an AI. Then he checked
and said a .338-06 A Square is also made but they are
indentical to the .338-06. Why then mark them differently
says I? The A-Square was proprietary says he. Hugh?

The beat goes on...
Why in the hell would WBY withdraw rifles b3ecause of case problems,
if the two cases are indentical?

All this is by way of reminding ourselves that precision reloading
is a chimera.

1B

Because the chamber specs and the cartridge specs don't match. If their ammo was the correct size, or their chambers weren't so large they wouldn't have had a problem. .006" is a lot of slop between the cartridge and the chamber. What good does it do to prepare concentric ammo with minimal runout only to throw it in a chamber that starts it into the barrel at an angle?

Had they just necked up a 30-06 to .338 they would have been fine.

When Mr Alpin of A square had it standardized as the .338-06 A Square he had four differant shoulder angles in other wise identical cases. He settled on the original (as designed by Elmer Kieth 338-06 OKC and designated it the 338-06 A Square I thinki this was in 2004 or 2005.

I think I'll just wait to hear back from Mr. Charles.

I may be the one, but I think there is a lot of un-due confusion on this topic.
I think that a 338-06 or a 338-06 A-square or whatever unless it is an ackley improved is the same thing, a standard 30-06 necked up to 338 and nothing else.

You never hear someone saying that a 30-06 and a 30-06 springfield has a different shoulder angle. I think A2 as some mentioned above is just the name of who standardized it not a different cartridge.

The 30-06 and 338-06 have a shoulder angle or 17degrees and 30 minutes or 17.5 degrees if I remember my math. LOl

some others that have the same SA include the 25-06, 270, 280, and 35 whelen and maybe some others.

I hope DZ will chime in on this one, he would know.

I'm glad I built my .338-06 and got the Redding dies before the "A-Square" thing came about!

I have used some Weatherby brass for mine, as well as .35 Whelen necked down. The Wby brass definitely does not have a 34 degree shoulder, they look the same. I am using standard Redding .338-06 dies. This cartridge should be a factory round, it is only 100-150 fps behind the .338 WM which I also love. I can't think of anything better for elk-sized game and all African plains game.

Now that I've seen several different drawings with different dimensions, the one I originally looked at may have been wrong.

I guess you can't believe everything you read on the internet.

Hate to be one that digs up "OLD BONES" but did this question ever really get a solid, concrete answer?

if i remember i can take a picture tonight.....ive got a 338-06 that ive run Weatherby 338-06 A-Square rounds through.....granted i havent shot the thing in a couple years but i seem to remember no change in the shape of the case before and after i pulled the trigger....

Thanks Rattler...

Here's the spec drawing I was hoping to go off of...

http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ...y=4&Rubrik=Calibers&Title=338-06 A-square

all i can do is show yah a pic of a unfired round and a fired case side by side and i know my chamber is just the standard 338-06 "wildcat".....actually may be able to do it over lunch and yah wont have to wait till tonight....

Thank you for doing this for me...

just dug out my A-Square loading manual.....it says the 338-06 A-Square has a 17 degree shoulder.....

Wow...! Now I have a real reason for having a .338 RCM instead of running in circles with a .338-06 A Square... ...

(I'm kidding...OK... ...)

Dennis

the only reason i am familiar with this is i had my 338-06 built shortly after Weatherby came out with theres and wanted the chamber to be the same to make it easy to get correctly headstamped brass in case it ever followed me to Africa.....the gunsmith who put it together called whereever he gets his reamers from and was told the old 338-06 wildcat and 338-06 A-Square were one in the same so i didnt have to worry bout it......got a box of the Weatherby loads for grins but most of whats been run out of it has just been necked up 30-06 brass....

I'll be taking my G33/40 which is in 338/06 for a walk come Sunday morn looking for an elky for the freeze. I've got 200 NBT's loaded with R17 a load that I just started working with. It runs the 200 out @ 2911 fps which should be adequate...grin

Dober

1B made the comment about Weatherby withdrawing from the 338-06 case because of proprietary issues. Could it have been because of low sales? Not many of them out there. Expensive rifles at the start and hard to find factory ammo may have sealed it's own fate from the beginning.
Could have been one them deals where many said "if they just made one I'd buy one". Then few actually do. Anyone here ever say that if FoMoCo, GM, or Mopar start re-making Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers they'd just hafta have one? Huh?
Now let's see how many rush right out and buy the new skinny M84 Long Action Kimbers after saying "if only...".

If there was ever a sales slam dunko it'd be the 84L, no doubt at all to me that it's gonna rock big time.

Dober

I agree sales will rock, alot of them by accident. Not necessarily by the guys who sit around and dream about wispy LAs. Most gun loonies are tightwads, me included, and won't run out and buy new guns. We can "custom make" one for less. Or wait and find one used after hunting season.
Anyone here have their order in yet? Local shops will be glad to take half down.

Dober, your running exactly 2 fps faster than my 23" Hart was doing with NBTs, I guess the RL17 is MO Betta than IMR4320

Seriously I talked to a guy in Oregon I beieve, previously owned the Buzztail Brass co. IIRC. He told me he built a 338/06 AI and it shot slower than a Std. so they cut off the chamber and rechambered for the standard, and it was faster? Go figure.

Based on that, I did mine in standard. Simple, effective, VERY accurate, modest recoil, and another round or two in the gun JUST in case, vs. a Win Mag. I later bought a WM just to compare recoil. I shot 1/2 MOA all day with my then wildcat - pre- Asquare as I had to order a custom die set from Redding....WHEW not cheap even then....but my Win Mag, I was not doing so well. I sold the Mag quick.

SO, to the OP, I would HIGHLY recommend the 338-06 if you handload, and to K.I.S.S. and not do any 'improved' version, as the MAJORITY of improvement has already been done with you open up the 06 case to 338, improving your expansion ratio, giving you 3500+ lbs of ME on tap, and with 200 Noz thru 225s, you can reach plenty far on most game i.e. Elk.

I was getting 200s at 2909, 215 2790, and 225s 2670. WW brass, IMR4320, std. primer.

I personally feel the 338-06 is an unsung hero in sensible non magnum all around NA game rifle cartridges. Others run next to it like 35 Whelen/350 RM, for mid bores, and perhaps the 9.3s (more mass but little more trajectory as well).

Why this round never caught on more is beyond me, kills VERY well, and yet does not punish one's shoulder. That's nice in my book.

If it were truly Marketed, to me it BLOWS away a 270/280/30-06 in killing large game w/minimal fuss. Not that the above three are inadequate by any means, esp. w/todays bullets, but if I were in a remote wilderness, esp. where large bears roam, I'd feel a little better pushing larger bullets. Afterall, it's the bullet that kills, not the name 'Magnum' on the back of a brass case.

Oh, the guy above who really sold me on the 338/06, after reading tons by Finn Aaggard and Steve Timm, etc. told me of a bull shot around 370 yds, a 225 PT drilled both shoulders and exited about the size of a silver dollar. He said, "what more power/performance can you ask for?" I agreed.

Dober, post pics after the hunt! Good hunting.`

BR I'm fighting the gack bad right now, so hope to be up an at em for the weekend. I've been in bed more or less for the last 3 days but feel like I am getting a bit better. Sucky time to get the crud!

As to the pics, I can hardly take em let alone post em...

Dober

From what I hear the 84L is gonna be about 5 lbs 5 oz naked and probably around 1100 bones. How you gonna go about getting a good CRF action and a good handle and a good tube and build one for less...?

Dober

Yeah, that's what we all find out is that we CAN'T custom build one for less. Maybe we can only afford to make one because we do it incrementally. Adding it all up can be sobering. Especially when it ends up weighing more than a factory gun.
Back to the Kimber LA, hope sales go through the roof so there'll be lots of used ones in a year or two. Wifey may never let me lay down $1000+ on a gun again. And the thought of selling off any existing rifles---well that just makes me cringe.
Good hunting this weekend, hope you feel better by then.

Dober hope you get well soon.

Again, best of success on your hunt.

Thx guys, I'm trying hard to get better cause after the elky hunt I go 4 moose.

Dober

were Kimber to come out with it i would prolly get one and have my current one reworked to 375 or 416 Ruger......i built it on a 1917 and its a pig at a few ounces under 10 ready to hunt......granted near anyone can shoot the SOB all day cause the recoil is hardly there

Man this is COMPLICATED! There is a much simpler solution.
Buy a CZ American in 9.3x62. A superior round for Elk or Moose, very accurate and if you ever want to tackle something bigger, it'll do it. Bullets from 250-300 gr, fps from 2300-2500.

9.3 is nice, compared trajectory, prefer the 338-06. It is a good round no doubt.

I've owned the Weatherby version now for 7 years. Always used necked up 30-06 brass and love the gun which shoots very accurate with 180 NBT/AB's or 210 partitions. When Weatherby released it, there was rumor remington was going to follow, if they did and made ammo for it, it would have been a different story.

When I bought mine it was on gunbroker NIB, bought for about 2/3's of retail and only did so because I handload. If a major like remington or Ruger chambered it and the ammo makers backed it the popularity would be a different story.

Chip, agreed. Would have been welcome in the M70 also, but I think if Kimber picks it up, that would be a nice option. For a fly weight rifle easy to tote while roaming the mountains, it would be a very strong package on most any game w/in 400 yds or so IMO.

I have been following this thread for a while, and would like to offer the following.

I have admired, from a distance, the 338-06 for many years, and have owned a Weatherby Ultralight for approx. 6 years, in that cartridge that Weatherby calls the 338-06 A-Square.

I am sure that there are drawings of wildcated cartridges that are called 338-06 that vary slightly in dimensions. You can find all kinds of things on the internet, and publications.

What I have found, and some here have confirmed, is that the 338-06 that we see the major die manufacturers selling and the 338-06 A-Square are the same dimensions. I reload with a die that is labeled 338-06 and it works perfectly. I shoot Weatherby factory cartridges and Nosler Custom, all with great results.

I think some of this dimensional differences some here are seeing are from the early days of this cartridges development. So I would suggest anyone with a older custom 338-06 check them for chamber dimensions.

As for Weatherby not chambering the 338-06 A-Square now, it is due to the fact that they could not sell them. Most people don't know what a 338-06 is, as can be seen on this forum by a group of gun nuts that still don't know the cartridge well.

When I purchase my Weatherby I asked my dealer why they seemed not to sell, and he said " few people who come into my shop have ever heard of it". What Weatherby did was chamber the round in it's lightweight but provided little to no promotion of it. I remember seeing one article written about the Weatherby 338-06. There was no advertisements, nothing! Contrast that to the .300 Winchester Short Mag. You could not pick up a magazine, or log on to an internet forum without a discussion or article, plus Winchester advertised it.

Weatherby says it failed due to poor sales, I say, and have told them that it failed because they (Weatherby) did not commit to it.

Someone noted also that it failed due to chamber dimensions. I am not sure that this contributed to the failure, but I do know that early rifles were recalled by weatherby to correct an acuracy issue, which I was told was an improper chamber. My rifle that I purchased had been recalled from my dealer and sent back to Weatherby for correction. My dealer, and myself believe that the added attention it got is why mine shoots so well. So there may be some Weatherby ultralights so chambered that still have a oversized chamber or some other issue with them.

Sorry for the long post!

IIRC Winchester had it for awhile, but only in their custom line for around $2000 and the WBY cost around $1000. No cartridge is going to sell well with only those options. Also, as was said there was little to no promotion of it. WBY must have sold enough however as they are still selling ammo and brass, of course it could be being used in other rifles. I know a little off topic, but...

Agree w/last 2 posts

Sounds spot-on to me.

I bought an ER Shaw aftermarket tube and put it on a Savage 110 action. Here is the link from Brownells:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=23300/Product/SAVAGE_110_REPLACEMENT_BARREL_KIT

It is listed as "338-06" but from the get-go I took it to mean 338-06 A-Square and have had no issues whatsoever. As a matter of fact I get fantastic accuracy.

When I resize cases (I've been using a Hornady New Dimension FLS to size up 270 WCF cases I had lying around) there is no change in the shoulder, nor is there in once-fired cases.

I believe that once the round became "legitimized" reamers were produced with SAAMI specs whether labled as A-Square or not. It would be the older ones I'd have questions about.

This round has been a real pleasure to load for. It had been simply a project to ward off wintertime boredom, but it turned into a love affair. If it weren't shooting so well I'd likely build one on a commercial Mauser action. The cartridge really is, dare I say it, even more versatile than the 30-06 as far as the big game hunter is concerned... and I LOVE the Springfield... (2 of my 7 centerfires are so chambered).

Thanks for all the info guys. It's been and is being very helpful.

Perhaps we can put this issue to rest.

I have the SAAMI prints for the 30-06 and the 338-06 A-SQUARE in front of me. The 338-06 A-SQUARE is the 30-06 case necked up to 338 caliber with no other changes. Comparing minimum chamber dimensions, the base diameter, shoulder diameter and shoulder angle (17�15')are exactly the same.

There is one difference (other than neck diameter)........the 338-06 A-Square headspace is .0008" longer.

Confusion can result because the maximum cartridge dimensions show the shoulder angle at 17�30' for both cartridges and CIP (the European equivalent of our SAAMI) typically shows the angle between both sides of the shoulder or double what the SAAMI specs show. Reloading manuals show SAAMI maximum cartridge dimensions.

Has Kimber confirmed that the 84L will be available in 338-06?

I have it from an impeccable source that Dogzapper totally ignored Art Alpin and A-Square in the write-up on the .338-'06 in Nosler Number Five and that he did it on purpose.

I'm looking forward to a 338-06 AI. 210 Grain SCII Killin bear this coming August 1st!

Shag, What rifle do you have it in?

Rifles been sent but a their work load is about 16 weeks backlogged. It's an old Remington CRF Model 30 Express in 30-06 that is getting rebored and cutting the neck and throat to fit the 338 cartridge in 338-06 Imp.

Cool. Had a M1903 re-bbld to 338-06AI years ago. Shouldn't have let it go. Real accurate, 23" Win Fwt contour, shot 210NPs well.
It'll do good for you.

Sweet,

When I sent the rifle in I told them to let me know asap if there was enough barrel diameter to complete this project. And If not I'd like them to AI the -06.

It's been about a month and I haven't heard from them so I'm assuming that in about 12wks I'll have it back.

An Interesting thread?