My beloved old 788 Remington .243 is now officially a 2" grouper. It's been glass bedded, decent trigger... Used to perform really well.

I've worked with the load recipes--it's not going to shoot much of anything well now--the barrel is about gone.

There is a noticeable amount of throat wear (but no more than a Weatherby is made with!)

I'm wondering if cutting the 22" barrel back to 20 inches or even 18 inches and re-crowning would help.

Thanks,

Dan

I would re-throat the other end first wiz, as it is eroded as opposed to freebored, as the Weatherbys are.

That should straighten things out for you.
catnthehat

The only thing that shortening is going to make it do is shoot slower. If you had enough barrel in front of the threads you could set it back and rechamber it cutting a new throat. Unfortunatly I doubt that you would be able to do this with a 788 barrel. Sounds like it's time for a new barrel or maybe you might be lucky enough to find a decent 788 take-off barrel, check the forums and maybe someone might have one around...........DJ

Wizard
The barrel you have sounds like its shot-out, nothing to do but replace it. While you are at it, blue print the action, install a Lilja barrel, Brown Precision stock, trigger job, Talley's, Cera-kote finish, and be done with it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I built a 30-30 Ackley for John Haviland a few months back, nice little rifle on a 788. Dont let anyone tell you that because it has rear locking lugs it wont shoot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Wizard,

I had (I let my son in law have it) a pre-64 heavy barrel Model 70 "Varmint" rifle in .243 Winchester with a heavily eroded throat. If I cleaned the barrel it would shoot about 5/8" groups. After about 10 shots it would group like yours. Have you tried a good cleaning with the new foaming bore cleaner because it works great. I would try that before spending any money on the rifle. Thanks...

hey wiz
the 788 is a shooter rebarrel and if you dont want it call me.
BB

Thanks for the suggestions and offers guys. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have noted that this rifle in years past was more accurate than it had a right to be. I made a shot on a groundhog at 405 yards with it once, and have killed many varmints between 300 and 350 yards. Not bad for a sporter barreled rifle...

I have cleaned the barrel very well--used Sweets and JB per directions. I guess she's a goner... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'll poke around for a 788 take off barrel and see what they're bringing.

Failing that, I'll probably hold off on the re-barrel till after Christmas--gotta get past that first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure Charlie's suggestion would be the best route to take--if I had the cash handy. Maybe I'll sell that old Redfield spotter on ebay and put that toward a custom re-barrel... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Unfortunately time is money, and any time a smith puts into fixing this is going to be money that could have been spent on a new barrel. I presume that you have been setting the bullets out to compensate for throat wear. Have you reached your maximum magazine length yet? If not set them out further, if so, set them out and try the rifle single shot. If it shoots better, you definitely know what your problem is.
Another thing, counter boring. An old trick by which the rifling is removed from the muzzle end of the barrel. First take a bullet and set it nose down on the muzzle. How far does it go in? This is a judgement thing. You may wish to compare other rifles to see how far a bullet sets into the barrel. If the bullet settles too deeply into the barrel, you may be fairly certain that muzzle wear has occured. If this thing has been cleaned properly, that is unlikely. You see this type of wear mostly in rifles that have been cleaned from the muzzle.
While you are looking at the muzzle, how is the crown? It is one of the most important factors in accuracy. Of the three things you can change cheaply, bullet length, crowning and counter boring, one should help. Mike

Thanks Mike I'll take a look at the crown and muzzle diameter...

Dan

Wizard, do not over look the scope as the source of your opening groups. Check the base and ring screws, and try another scope if you have one. Early this year a kid brought his '06 over telling me the barrel had gone south. I had done a little work on this rifle a few years ago, and I could not find anything out of place. I shot it and got 3 shots in a 5X6 triangle at 100 yards. His scope was an early VXII that his father had used up. Leupold found 5 things wrong with it, and he no longer has a problem. Mike

Reminds me of an answer years ago to an expectant mother-to-be who was worried about whether her face-lift surgery would affect her baby's face. The answer in the newspaper column was classic � began with "You can have your face lifted, lowered, or turned inside-out ...."

If the trouble with your barrel is its crown or its vibration patterns, shortening may help. But neither is likely to be your problem � if it were, that barrel would've been a problem from Day One. No, your problem is almost undoubtedly plain old bore senility, AKA throat erosion, about as far from the muzzle as you can get.

Rebarrel.

Ah, yes, exactly what I've come to expect from Mr Howell - short, easy to understand technical reason for his solution - rebarrel.

So, Mr. Howell a question then. How do you know the barrel had not been knocked against a rock destroying the crown? I met a guy a couple years ago who had purchased a 721 new. He had been cleaning it from the muzzle, and never had a clue that he should have taken the bolt out. Are you certain that wizard is not cleaning his 788 in the same manner? I may be taken to task for questioning the god, but have you not the experience to offer the guy a few pointers rather than pontificate? Should this guy blow a few hundred bucks on a rebarrel based on your authority, and then find that his scope was going to pot, would that bother you? Mike

I can not think of any reason that I should answer this.

I think you've earned a new barrel an gotten your money's worth. Were it my gun, I'd be happy ... If you look hard you can find another tube without going premium, I think.

Dr. Howell,

Very well put, Sir.

Wizard,

I rebarreled a 788 left hand a few years ago to 6mm-284 with a 26" Shilen Stainless tube. It shoots like a dream. I built it to shoot deer with from a great distance but until Thanksgiving Day, I never got a chance at a long shot.

At 10:30 Thursday morning, a little buck stood in just the right place and my plan finally came together. Thanks be to Jesus!

I vote with Charlie on this, but I would just twist on a new, high quality tube. The 788's are shooters and if you love it, then a minor face lift is often the best medicine.

If you want to crank it up and really spend the pennies, then go for a 243 AI, with a McSwirly, and ditch the 788 clip. I hear-tell that Model 700 magazines (Floor Plates, etc. ) can work on 788s. That oughta be a sweet deal!

Good Shooting,

BMT

Thanks guys, for all of the responses.

Here is what I did for a "temporary" fix. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I thought what the heck, the barrel is toast, so I can't hurt it much by cutting it.

You guys are going to think I'm nuts... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But I hack-sawed it off 3.75 inches from the muzzle, making it 18.25 inches long. Got muh-say-ulf a carbine yuk yuk. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I made the cut pretty square, but used a large flat file to shape the muzzle. I just eyeballed it to be truthful, but got it pretty straight if I do say so myself.

I used the flat file to break the outside corner and round it down. Got that looking pretty symmetric...

I then needed a "real" crown on the muzzle. So I took a carriage bolt from my scrounge-box and chucked the shaft of it in my cordless drill. I then took a strip of 240 grit emery cloth (a strip about 1/2" wide and 3 inches long) and taped it across the round head of the carriage bolt. I held the barreled action upright on a chair and beared down with the drill/carriage-bolt/sandpaper apparatus and let it grind into the muzzle. This situation tended to self align for the most part (the barrel and spinning carriage bolt had to be relatively in line or the bolt would spin off the muzzle). I replaced the sandpaper three or four times, just using electrical tape to tape a new strip of sandpaper over the carriage bolt. This worked! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Then I had to polish things up a bit. I used a small plumbing pipe cap (about 3/4" inside diameter) and put a bolt and tap through that to make a cup that would spin on the end of my drill (imagine a wine glass looking thing). I put some 0000 steel wool into the cup and smeared some Flitz in there too. I put this over the crown and spun it until the crown and muzzle were totally polished. It looked really good.

Then for one last touch up of the crown, I used a small round headed brass screw with some lapping compound on it (got the lapping stuff from my scope ring lap kit). I thought I'd sharpen the crown a bit in case the steel wool rounded it out some. This worked pretty well also--it didn't mark up the muzzle--it just sharpened the edge inside the crown.

Last of all, degrease and cold blue. I'm sure one of you 'smiths could see the kitchen table work stick out like a sore thumb, but for my part I can't tell it from a factory crown job.

But does it shoot any better?

Well, a little. I did turn in some encouraging groups at the range this evening with some old standby loads. Encouraging--that is--for a "shot out" barrel (which this one pretty much is). The old rifle held 1.5 MOA for five shots of a couple different recipes--and this with a fixed 4 power Bushnell Trophy, 4x40--yes, they did make such an animal for one and only one year. Bright scope for a cheapie...

Anyway, I got 2850 fps from 85 grain Sierra BTHP's, with an ES of only 35 fps. With a little more load development I might just get her to at least hover around MOA (hope of hopes, yeah)... Shortening the barrel did improve the groups some, but certainly not to the level that the rifle once shot. Nonetheless, it's useful now. Short and easy to handle, for sure...

I rekkin' I got myself a half decent deer and yote rifle. I'll use it like this until funds permit doing the proper thing. I gotta say I like the short barrel--so maybe an 18.5 inch custom would make as much speed as the old 22" factory job did. Ideas, ideas... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for the read. And by the way, if the above has offered any of you some much needed comic relief, let me say that I was glad to be of service... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dan

I am glad you had fun and entertained us at the same time.
You brought back memories of my dad smithing a lee enfield 303, he was a bodyman and he too sawed off the barrel and crowned it using lapping compound and I think a carriage bolt too, not sure, he might have used a ball bearing, will have to ask him, but I do know initially he used a countersink to chamfer it and then the polish, that rifle ended up real slim in the stock, and he added a cheekpiece to it and finished up with burning it with a torch and sealing it with I think Linseed oil, and it ended up a shooter.
My second oldest brother ended up getting it off the guy that dad sold it to later in life and then one of my other brothers got it when that brother died, we did not want it to leave the family.
So you shared a good story and brought back some good memories. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wizard:

Ya gots you a real App-Uh-Latchin Special there! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Say Hi to Bubba for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good shooting,

BMT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll play with the load development a little and see what happens. I think 1.5 would be alright for what I'm going to use it for--but I'll still rebarrel somewhere down the road.

For what it's worth, Remington did make a carbine 788 in .243 win. It had a short barrel--18.5 inches I think. I can see the thinking behind such after playing with my "new" rifle a bit this afternoon. It'll point right out the truck window real easy like us Apple-atchun deer hunters like to do... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dan

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BMT

As we used to say in "the Old Corps" -- "Improvise, Adapt, Overcome".
& you don't need to be a Nuclear scientist PH(u)D. to do it.
Realize that if Jeff Foxworthy hears of this you may see yourself mentioned on the blue collar tour. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Realize that if Jeff Foxworthy hears of this you may see yourself mentioned on the blue collar tour."

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, no doubt about it... "If you saw the barrel off of your huntin' rifle so as it'll swing to point out the truck winder easier... you might be a redneck!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I did talk to Carroll Pillant at Sierra this moring and asked him if the 85 grain BTHP would do a job on a deer with the 2800 to 2850 muzzle velocity I'm getting. He said no problem, and actually went on to say that this particular bullet would probably do better at the lower velocity for shots inside 100 yards.

As mentioned, I'm going to try to shave another 1/2 MOA off the groups I'm currently getting with a little additional load development. However, I'm not going to push the barrel too much, given the condition it's in...

Dan

Dan, I'm not sure what powder you are using, but I have had good luck with RE-15, IMR4350, and IMR3031 behind the 85 BTHP sierra. RE-15 yeilds right at 2900 fps, 4350 and 3031 both give around 3050 fps and accuracy is MOA or better in my M77 and M77 MKII. Bullets are seated just shy of the rifling. I carried the RE-15 combo this year hunting mule deer in western Nebraska. Didn't get one, but had fun.

Thanks kecatt,

how long is the barrel on your rifle?

Dan

Both are factory 22" guns.
I know a guy who has a 18.5" 788. It escapes me now what our vel. differences are, though.

Why not drop 45 dollars and get a proper crown? But hey, if it is goodnuff,

I cut back a 308 rem700synthetic to 17" and I like it plenty. Real handy.

This ought to generate some heat, but here goes!

Clean you barrel as well as you can. Try to get it down to bare steel, ie, no metal fouling.

Now try shooting moly coated bullets. I am betting you will see a marked improvement. Yours will not be the first shot out barrel that was "healed" using moly.

Okay, bunker suit on.................. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Ted,

I'll try it. I've got some 60 grain Bergers just sitting around I think...

Thanks for the suggestion.

Dan

Update...

I didn't get a chance to try the moly coated bullets, but I did have the good fortune to receive a Sierra Bullets "X-ring" newsletter which reminded me of something...

If you're dealing with a barrel with a worn throat, often a flat based bullet will improve things. I've been shooting boat-tails up until now in this rifle...

Anyway, I began working with the Hornady 87 grain soft point bullet. (Sorry Sierra, these were available and cheap!)

I worked up to a max of 46 grains of IMR 4831 and saw no pressure signs.

I found that the rifle would fire MOA or sub MOA groups with 44.8 grains, 45.6 grains, and 46.0 grains. In fact the 46.0 grain charge gave me a couple of nice three shot 3/4" groups at 100 yards--and this with a fixed 4X scope.

Velocity was 2750 fps. Not screamin' but remember it's an 18 3/8" barrel...

Anyway, the barrel still seems to have some life left in it. Shortening it and re-crowning it helped it noticeably with boat-tail bullets, and going to the flat based bullet seems to have made further improvement yet.

Now all I need to find out is how well an 87 grain Hornady SP will work on a deer with an MV of 2750 fps... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dan

I made an effort to scan the crown/muzzle. It's shown below...



You can see the blast burst around the crown is pretty even, an indication that it is relatively symmetric I would think. There is a light dish to the crown that you really can't see--but suffice it to say that it's a little more shallow than the factory dish, but not as shallow as you see on most heavy barrels.

And here is the rifle itself. I stained the stock Remington green a few years back. Just mixed a little hunter green paint with some clear varnish (my father in law is a hardwood flooring specialist, he gave me the idea) and it makes a green stain that doesn't cover the natural grain. Factory 788 stocks are pretty homely so I thought I'd dress this one up a bit. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Poly'd over that with a satin finish...



Might not be some folks cup of tea, but I've actually gotten a lot of positive comments on it at the range. One guy even said he "remembered" when Remington did that "special run" of green 788's... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

By the way, she's shooting consistent 1/2 to 3/4 MOA three shot groups with the recipe mentioned above now. Spoke to a tech at Hornady and he said that shortening an old worn barrel definitely can improve accuracy. All I can say is that it helped this old barrel immensely...

Dan

Here is a better photo of the crown dish... By the way, the dark area at the edge of the bore at about 6 o'clock in the first photo is powder residue; the edge is clean and sharp all the way around...