What's your opinion of the max range of someone shooting open sights? Your scope fails, and you remove it from your rifle. I have shot open sights some, mostly with an M-16, so I understand the concept. But does your limit become 100 yards? 75 yards?
I have shot NRA course of fire at 200,300,600 yds with both a Garand, and an 03 Springfield and did well. Probably 200 yards is my max now due to my eye sight.
Highly dependent on the quality of the sights, and the proficiency of the shooter.
NRA matches from 200 - 600 yards show me that iron sights are useful, but that's on a range with a well-defined target, not in the field.
I shoot irons to 1000.
But the issue is really what are you shooting at, what are you shooting with, and what are the specific conditions (light, orientation, movement, angles, shooting position, animal's position (assuming hunting) and a host of other things).
Its the same thing as shooting with a scope - you can shoot as far as you can see the target clearly enough...
What I am getting at, is that a lot of people will say confidently that they are good out to 400 yards with a scope for example, but then when they talk about iron sights its suddenly down to 75 yards tops - its like they are assumming that when you take the scope off, you suddenly also forget the need for a good rest and everything is shot offhand or something...
With the same rested position as when you use a scoped rifle, the same view of the animal, I know I am good on deer sized creatures out to 250 yards. This is as far as I have killed an animal with open sights - notch and post front sight and it was a fairly straightforward exercise. With better iron sights, like a peep sight that I have shot many animals with, it is possible that I could stretch it to 300, but I have not had the opportunity with those type of sights as it happens.
It depends on the conditions. As it does with a scoped rifle also.
As a general rule I consider anything within 200 yards to be perfectly shootable assumming the light is good enough to see the target properly, and the same decent rest I would have used with a scoped rifle.
magnification has no effect on physics.
When I was on the army rifle team I put 20 rounds in a 10 inch target at 500 yds in the prone position with my M1 Grande.it's all about trigger squeeze.
Indeed the M1 Garand is "muy grande"!
I regularly practice with iron (aperture) sights out to 300 yards with a couple of rifles, and find it to be no big trick- but that's in broad daylight, on suitably sized targets, off of a bench. What those exercises teach me is mainly the ballistic quirks of those particular rifles and loads, and instills in me the confidence for taking a game shot, from a steady rest, a little farther out than if I didn't practice at all. Where I hunt, and have hunted most of my life, a 100 yard shot is a long one, and I won't shoot beyond that unless the light is good and I can take a steady rest. Even then I wouldn't feel comfy in taking a shot much beyond 150-175. If on the off chance that such a shot should present itself, it's a matter of a couple seconds to slip the scope onto the rifle and do it.
For many years my only center fire rifle was a Win. 94 .30-30. I ran it with a Williams receiver sight in the rear and a flat faced ivory {plastic} bead up front. I was deadly on woodchucks out to 150 yards with that rifle and killed several deer between 150 and 225 yards with it. On the range I could hold 1.5" groups at 100, 3" at 150 and bust gallon milk jugs repeatedly at 200.
Shooting a scoped rifle corrects all deficiencies with my less than perfect vision. With any type of iron sight that advantage disappears and greatly limits my abilities. It has nothing to do with rifle proficiency. My max comfort zone on deer with a peep is a 100, maybe 125 yards - with good light. As the light fades my comfort zone becomes very limited.
To the OP, this is a question to which there is no one max range fits all answer. An individual's eyesight is the limiting factor.
For those of you with perfect or good eyesight - count your blessings.
+1 Fish head I concur. Magnum Man
I forgot about those iron sight matches when I asked the question. Those matches are cool stuff.
But maybe I should be asking:
At what distance do normal iron sights obscure the aiming point on a whitetail deer sufficient that you would not want to shoot at said deer?
+2 Fish Head I also concur but I do believe rifle proficiency is a definite advantage to using iron sights. Practice builds skill and confidence in your abilities to shoot accurately at longer ranges. I switched to a Williams peep sight on my .30-06 several years ago after having test driving my hunting partners rifles so equiped. I am now quite comfortable taking shots out to 250 yards given lighting and target presentation is favourable. Last season took a small whitetail doe at 190 yards with single, double lung shot! IMO Once you have practiced with a peep sight you will be amazed at the natural simplicity of target acquisition and the inherant ability of your eye to center the front sight accurately on target out to great distances. Keep in mind that prior to telescopic sights snipers regularily used peep sights with great accuracy over long distances!! Only when my eyesight fails will I switch back to scopes for hunting purposes.
+3 Fishead in good light my son and I have shot ram silhouettes (500 metres +-550 yards)seated with a front rest using a Lee Enfield no 4 mk 1 with the issue peep sights and have been 100%. GRF
the front sight of an M16 is twice the width of the target at 500 yards.
The target is 40"X20".
so it 500 yards the front sight covers 40 inches in width.
Still had no problems going 10 for 10.
Just like everything else with equipment. its not the gear, its how you use it.
What's your opinion of the max range of someone shooting open sights? Your scope fails, and you remove it from your rifle. I have shot open sights some, mostly with an M-16, so I understand the concept. But does your limit become 100 yards? 75 yards?
Some have problems hitting anything at 100 yards (with either iron or telescopic sights). Others do quite well - consider the 19th century marksmen shooting 45-70's with iron sights at 1,000 yards.
Anyone who doubts the ability to hit well with iron sights should attend a BPCR long range gong match.You see an amazing variety of young to old people hit steel gongs out to 1000 yds using a globe frt sight and a vernier tang sight. Yes, the finest of iron sights but iron sights nontheless. As in any other kind of shooting, if you don't practice what you want to do, you will not develope any proficiency at all.It is very satisfying to take a rifle that duplicates what was considered "state of the art" 140 years a go and whack a 4x4" steel plate time after time in the wind at 1,000 yds. I am as guilty as any at rationalizing my predominant use of scope sighted rifles to hunt with. For me it comes down to personal ethics of making a clean kill.With a steel target that isn't a factor. Magnum Man
Peep sights are not "iron sights", they are optical sights. Their greatest advantage and reason for match and military use is that the shooter is concerned with only 2 planes. The target and the front sight. The eye automatically centers the front sight in the rear peep and doesn't have to focus the peep.
Iron sights force the shooter to operate on three planes and introduce alignment to the variables.
Outside of these considerations, the coarseness and shape of the front sight will limit the distance at which the shooter can precisely and repeatably place the front sight on the target.
That's my take.
I am good to only about 200 yards with open sights. However, peep sights work well for me out to as far I can resolve the target. That distance decreases fairly rapidly with my age!! I can still consistently hit elk sized vitals out to 500 or so with my 45-70s.
Your points about the difference in the planes you have to deal with between barrel sights and peep sights are correct.I differ in my opinion with your classifying tang or peep as optical sights.Go to any BPCR match (silhouette,gong, or Creedmoor )in the US today and you will find that sight classes are either iron sights (tang or barrel) or scope class period. There are folks who would like too see a barrel only sight class and maybe it will happen someday at a major match.Barrel sights can be effectively used at extended range,depends on how well you see and can bring in the 3 planes to definition. My eyes at 56 aren't the best anymore,I have to concentrate on a good sight picture and aim for the ctr of the "fuzzy". With my 40-70BN I had very little problem hitting the 600 yd gong once I found the right setting on my ladder barrel sight.. Using barrel or tang sights is fun and enjoyable. It IMHO is also a skill that any rifleman should have to back up on. 2 of the last 4 centerfire bolt action rifles that I bought had irons or atleast did have at 1 time. I restored the original sights on them and put on scopes that were very practical that could be used with irons in place. More folks than not immediately remove the irons off any they buy that are equipped with them in favor of a scope. The frt sight often is a pain in the butt when getting it out of the guncase etc. I sighted both these rifles in with the irons first then the scopes. NO I did not use any see thru mounts.My old 1st year production M700 ADL Carbine wears its original iron sights + a Lyman rec sight with a removable staff that will return to zero upon putting it back in. It has Weaver bases and rings holding an M8 4x Leupold that also return real well to zero after being removed for iron sight use.I did this for utility if I needed it.I have many other scope sighted rifles with clean lines and no irons.The ability to use irons is part of the history of American riflemen and like freedom I will hold onto mine. Magnum Man
One problem with irons is comparing results on a kd range with field shooting. Targets have a contrasting bull but field targets blend into the background and they are encountered in variable light.
A little bit of magnification goes a long way toward hitting in less than ideal conditions.
To the OP, as many have said it is variable as to what the lighting and conditions are as well as the size of the object you are trying to hit. I can hit an 6"x6" steel gong at 400 yards every time with my open sight M1A using match ammo, but can only hit it 1 out of 4 or 5 times using milsurp ammo. There are many variables involved.
I'm old with good vision, but wouldn't trust my few iron-sighted guns (actually, trusing myself would be a better statemnt) past 150 yards. Which is fine, since I don't really hunt anymore.
no scope can compare to the FOV you get w/ irons.
Scopes will always be a superior sighting device simply because they let you see the target better as well as limiting your focus to one plane instead of two or three.
But if you don�t need to shoot beyond whatever your limit is, open or receiver sights have a few advantages of their own.
One, they are rugged. You can whang a peep sight or open rear out of alignment but it�s a lot harder to do so.
Two, they take an 8 pound top heavy rifle and make a svelte, well balanced 7 pound rifle out of it. I�m always a bit amazed at how well rifles handle without 12 to 16 ounces of weight stuck 2 inches above their centerline. Marlin and Winchester lever actions spring to your shoulder and your low cheek weld makes you one with the firearm. Even a standard Model 700 or Model 70 becomes much more handy. And you can grasp it with your hand all the way around it.
I hunted my .30-06 M700 with a Williams guide sight one year in Utah. Running jackrabbits were in serious danger out to around 200 yards. Even hit a ----- on the wing as it rose up in front of me. Not a good idea with an ought six if you want to keep anything but feathers.
But if you don�t need to shoot beyond whatever your limit is, open or receiver sights have a few advantages of their own.
One, they are rugged. You can whang a peep sight or open rear out of alignment but it�s a lot harder to do so.
The weak part of a metalic sight set up is the front sight. Don't ask me how I know.
