Hey guys,

When I started reloading many years ago, I used Grandpa's dusty, old Bair powder measure and scale for the first several years. The scale was a bit of a pain to use, so as soon as I could, I upgraded my setup and went to the Lyman DPS, and I've been using an electronic scale/dispenser ever since.

Well now I've decided that I'd like to produce ammo a bit quicker, since I find that I go through a lot of it and reloading it is becoming a huge chore. Powder dispensing is definitely the weakest link, meaning that it is the step that slows me down the most. I need to move to a volumetric powder measure for the times when I want to just throw together a large lot of ammo.

I've been looking around at the various powder measures- RCBS Uniflow, Lee, Redding, Hornady, etc, and it seems that they all have many reviews that are glowing, as well as a few reviews that are critical of the unit's consistency. My one requirement is that it needs to be able to dispense consistently to within +/- 0.1gr of stick powder like IMR7828ssc, IMR4350, TAC, etc. I'm not planning to spend the money on a Harrell, or anything, but I'm sure one or more of these other units is capable of the consistency that I'm looking for.

What has been your experience? Which powder measure would you go with, based on my criteria?

Thanks!
Jordan

+/- 0.1 grain of IMR4350 is pretty strict, especially for speedy mass production. Are the loads really that critical?

Jordan,

There is a big difference in dispensing "log" powders like IMR4350, short-cuts like IMR7828ssc and TAC. For one thing, TAC is a ball powder, and will dispense accurately in just about any powder measure. The short-cut powders are also much easier than long-granule extruded powders.

I've used a bunch of different powder measures and only one was totally a POS. (Can tell you that one in a PM.) Right now I have two set up, an RCBS and a Hornady, and both work well. The RCBS is used for day-to-day loading, especially of big game loads, and the larger-capacity Hornady for larger volumes, such as prairie dog ammo. But Redding is coming out with a new measure that sounds good, and I'll have to try that one as well.

Basically I just don't often use log powders in measures anymore, what with all the good ball and short-cut powders available. But you also might be surprised how accurate thrown loads with IMR4350 can be even when they vary a half-grain or so. Many handloaders assume that powder charges varying that much can't be accurate, but there are much more important variables in any load than a few granules of powder.

You don't say what the volume of 4350 is required ,but it has been tested and proven that as volume goes up , the requirement for exact powder weight goes down. ie, 1/2 gr in a 80 grain load is not going to be a signifiacnt variable in accuracy.Perhaps JB can chime in .

Some info I posted a while back:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/409119/1

The benchrest guys shoot tiny groups and never weigh..........except a few 1000yd guys. I use a large Harrel's and have been really pleased. It's a precision instrument.

+1

I haven't done it with IMR4350 since I don't mass produce cartridges using that powder. But I have five 308s that shoot nice small groups out to 300 yards with thrown charges of IMR 4064 and 3031. I'm using a Redding BR-30.

Lyman #55. Takes a learning curve to get it set up, but it throws charges fast and accurately.

Thanks, fellas! Keep it coming!

A lot of the shooting I do is beyond 500 yards, hence the desire for fairly consistent powder charges. I'm hoping to give up little if any precision to my electronic dispenser, which has 0.1gr resolution, but be able to do it faster.

I've been looking hard at the RCBS Uniflow and Competition measure, the Redding 3BR, Hornady LNL, and a couple of others.

I'm loading anywhere from 50-65gr of IMR4350, up to 70gr IMR7828ssc, 35-45gr TAC, and I also run up to 70gr IMR4831, RL17, etc. I realize that 0.1gr resolution may not be absolutely critical in these scenarios, but I like to hedge my bets, so I'm wondering which of these run-of-the-mill powder throwers, if any, offers the kind of consistency I'm hoping for.

Sorry, yes that's true. I was just listing off a few of the powders I commonly use to give you an idea of application. The first two are stick powders (as are the vast majority of the powders I use), and TAC is one of the only ball powders on my bench. But I have noticed over the years that it meters like a dream.

Take a peek at the JD Quick Measure. It is fast, accurate and CANNOT cut grains of powder. LINK

Before doing a lot of head scratching, etc,why not load up ten rounds hand weighed and ten rounds thrown and shoot them at the distances you expect to use them at.

Now that's an experiment I think I need to try. I usually weigh every charge when loading with stick powders, sometimes even with ball. If it works out that thrown is close or the same as measured then that little time spent at such an experiment might convince my persnickety mind to save time at the bench and spend it in the field.

My experience is that you'll almost always find that there's no significant difference in velocity (including variation) and accuracy between the two.

Thanks, Mule Deer. Do you find this to be true even when getting down to the smaller rifle cartridges like the .223, too?

I would, but I don't currently own a powder thrower

bruinruin,

Hmm. Good question, but I don't use big-grain powders in the .223 or similar cases. Even the extruded powders used, such as Benchmark, are very small-grained, so there's not much variation in thrown loads.

Part of my deal, too, is that I get to experiment with all sorts of newer powders. There are a bunch that work better than the "traditional" powders for similar uses, and I've switch to a lot of those, one of the criteria being how well the measure.

I don't use bulky powders in my .223 either, John.

I was just being curious. It seems plausible that a smaller case is going to be a bit more sensitive to charge weight consistency than a large one though, being that a difference of +/- .2 grains isn't diddly to a medium or large case, but may start to get significant as case size reaches the smaller end of the spectrum.

Thanks for your reply,

Scott

Here's a test I've done with a well developed load.

Load ten rounds holding the powder charges as close to perfect as you can. Load ten more with two perfect, two at +.1, two at -.1, one at each of -.2 and -.3, and one at each of +.2 and +.3 grains.

Now let someone else label them in such a way that all you know is you have two ten shot batches A and B. After you shoot, the other person is to give you the key to decode which batch was perfectly weighed and the other was perturbed.

The Lyman DPS is the slowest electronic dispenser out there. I have been using the RCBS Chargemaster for 5 years now, and I love it. It is very fast and very accurate. I shoot in F-class competition to 1000 yards and so I can load quite a bit for a multiple day match. In automatic mode, after the charge is dispensed, I dump it in the cartridge and replace the pan on the platten. At that point, the Chargemaster will start dispensing the next load and while it's doing that, I seat the bullet, make a final visual check, put the assembled cartrdige in the box, pick up the next empty case, run a neck brush to it and put on the funnel and usually the Chargemaster is waiting for me to pick up the next charge. Repeat as necessary.

The only way to load large amounts of match ammo.

My answer to the question as asked is to suggest multiple copies of your preferred brand of digital scale and electrical dispenser - there is an issue of generation as the makers leapfrog each other. For a while Lyman was little faster for the same result and there have been speedup kits.

I have no idea which might be the Platonic best currently and I don't think it matters. Pick your favorite color. Don't disillusion yourself by comparing them each to the other though once you have your battery setup. They may not be exactly the same but they will be pretty close given power conditioning and breeze control.

A battery of dispensers such that when one pan is dumped and replaced to restart the first dispenser the adjacent one is already ready. This is about the only way I know to guarantee +/- 0.1 grain of any and all stick powder and do it as fast as other operations this side of having a pair of assistants each with a manual setup.

Myself I find it useful to have an RCBS Little Dandy with a roll of quarters for weight to do charges such a 1.7 Red Dot for a .32 S&W Long all the way to optional at extra cost micrometer adjustments on a progressive with RCBS and Hornady with optional at extra cost micrometer adjustments in between. I'm sure Redding is first rate but the gap between that and Harrell's isn't much. Others I suspect are used and qualified with specific powders as with Precision and Neil Jones and others availabe as well. I suspect - but have never had the money to test - the really pricey measures aren't much better with large charges of 4064 say but rather do a superb job with other powders for short range - to 300 yards - bench rest.

I also use a Harrell's with included at the price micrometer adjustment for load at the range including load at the range ladder testing - which typically for me requires dawn or dusk diurnal wind reversal though I do have windflags - else I can't really tell what the targets are saying.

Beyond that I'd WAG that the folks who report success are measuring how rigid the mount is, how much the breeze is controlled, how consistent the operator is and other hard to reproduce aspects of the experiment.

I actually have the DPS3 speed upgrade kit for my Lyman, and it's just about as fast as my buddy's RCBS CM. I do my loading exactly like you do yours, including the dispenser waiting for me to pick up the next powder charge after seating the previous bullet, but I was hoping to speed things up by charging 50 or 100 cases at a time with a powder thrower, and then seat the bullets all at once.

The small case vs large case situation is why I always talk about percentages of the desired charge. For charges of ten grains or more, I am perfectly comfortable with a total variation of 1%. If the desired charge is 50 grains, that means a spread of half a grain is acceptable. I truly don't think there is any on-target result that one could absolutely blame on a 1%powder variation.

If you are more persnickety than that, you'd never be satisfied with a powder measure anyway unless you weigh every single charge. That's the only way to be sure you are within some arbitrarily tiny variation like 0.1 grain. Weighing every charge and "speed loading" are mutually incompatible, of course. The quickest way to have every charge weighed is a digital dispenser, because it does the metering and weighing while your hands are free to do other tasks - like bullet seating.

I was kind of afraid of that. Although that JD Quick Measure you mentioned certainly has me interested. Any experience or thoughts on that unit?

I have the Lyman DPS 3 for bench work and a Harrell's. I have conducted exhaustive tests with the Harrell's at home in a controlled environment. Using W760 and throwing 10 charges, each recorded & then averaged, it comes out pretty uniform. However, the individual swings can be as much as 6/10's and I don't like that a bit.

Most of my charges are locked in concerning powder choices. Unlike J.B. I don't get to play with newer stuff unless I pony up the cash & I don't need 30+ lbs of powder sitting around that I can't use when the loads don't work out.

As far as my progressive Hornady Lock N Load, the Hornady p.m. it came with works great !!

When I would like to speed things up with large charges I set my uniflo a couple of grains light then set the pan on the scale and hit the despence button to just trickle it to weight. Takes about a quarter the time with 70 gn. charges.

Six tenths on ball powder? Really?

Well, I bought a Johnson's, and I reviewed them for a magazine. Mine is an earlier model, and the newer ones are even better. But I am very impressed. I use it when I do a really bulk run (like a five-gallon bucket of prairie dog ammo). It works flawlessly.

I have both the Hornady, and the RCBS Uni-flow. The Hornady is a good measure, but I prefer the RCBS for coarse powders. One of the factors that really helps is to learn a consistent method - and that may vary with type of powder. With course powders I tend to grasp the knob with my fingers and place my thumb on the handle stem. Raising the handle knowing that you will break kernels, you can use the secure grip to cut and throw consistently. With fine powders I use just my fingertips and lift, perhaps tapping at the top, the bottom, or both, but always the same way.

Regardless how I do it, I load them all (or several at a time anyway) in a block. I do a visual of each case before beginning to seat bullets. It's pretty easy to tell if a case is off enough to matter for hunting loads. I don't usually discard only one load since a heavy one often means a neighboring (previous) load was light. If not there is sometimes a fur ball or similar in an 'overloaded' case.

That's a good idea...

How do you find the consistency/precision of the QM?

As long as you are load developed the correct way, the ladder method more precisely the Audette method, then thrown charges unless horrible, will not matter at normal ranges.

If you are going to shoot longer ranges, say 600 and beyond and anything like F class, then you will need to weigh more than just powder charges too... and you will be able to see the difference between dumped and weighed as the range lengthens.

Just remember this part, you don't just throw up and fling a 600 yard shot, the reloading reflects that too... you just learn to take your time...

Does anyone else here have experience with the Belding & Mull measure? I picked one up last year at a good price and it's easily the most consistent measure I've used, even with 4350 and 4064. It's not fast, but it's not pokey either. My Lyman #55 is definitely faster for charging a block of cases, but the B&M is more consistent, easily.

For fast, never fail loading, why not use the little Lee powder dippers?

Once you know which one to use and have practiced a bit to throw consistent charges, you can do it lightning fast with no calibration and no worries about anything. Kind of therapeutic even......

I'll never go back to a measure myself. Too much set up, weighing, adjusting, crunching, emptying.....

Hmm.

I love my old set of Lee dippers, and use it all the time, especially when working up loads. But I can't imagine loading several hundred rounds of rodent ammo with 'em!

Very accurate and as said will not cut or bind with stick powders. It tosses all types with similar results.

I like mine alot too. rarly use the RCBS, for handguns it's hard to beat the Little Dandy. --- Mel

Re: Belding and Mull. I have had one for 35+ years and have used it extensively on the IMR stick-type powders. Really works better there than a drum-type measure. I have two of the "micrometer" charge tubes, a standard and a magnum, so resetting to a charge is easy. Yeah, it's a bit slow but for a box or two of hunting ammo it's no big deal.

After switching to Ramshot ball and short-cut stick powders it doesn't get much use anymore. Redding measures take care of that. I also have a set of Lee dippers and wouldn't be without them.

Steve

Let me introduce the concept of Time and Motion measurement. The way you and I load right now requires that you pick up a case, brush the neck, seat the funnel, charge it, put the pan down and then pick up a bullet, put it on top of the case, place the case in the press and lower the arm to seat the bullet. Then you remove the case from the press, do a final inspection and put the assembled cartridge in the box.

From the time you have put the powder pan down, the Chargemaster has been working on dispensing the next load and usually, it is waiting for me to pick it up, so there is really not interruption in the flow.

If you decide to charge 50 and then seat 50 bullets, you will have to handle each case twice instead of once and you will have many more steps to do, that are all single-threaded, meaning you have to do them all yourself. You will also have the added task of checking to see if the powder is in the case and if the level of the powder looks appropriate, something you do not have to do with the electronic dispenser.

An added bonus of the Chargemaster is that it counts the number of charges it dispenses, this way when I do a large batch I know that I did not miss one. As you get older, stuff happens in your brain, and it's nice to know the CM has your back, trust me.

Now the most stupid way I have heard here is to dump short and trickle up. This is stupid only if you are trying to speed up from an electronic dispenser. If all you have is a scale and a measure, it's the way to go; going backwards is the stupid part. I used that method for many, many years and the problem is that it requires your undivided attention and fine motor skills. It goes well for a while and then it gets to be a pain because you are single-threaded at that point. When I got the CM, 5 years ago, it was like being liberated from that mindless drudgery of throwing short and trickling up; the CM did that for me automagically and I did not have to worry about it as I was doing something else, like seating a bullet or final prepping a case.

The Chargemaster in automatic mode was a Godsend to me and I have loaded mutliple thousands of match ammo with it, stuff that I use in 1000 yard competition.

Had this discussion at work last week. What powder measure is best or weigh each round?
I only weigh each one in load development, once satisfied , then calibrate the measure (RCBS) to that weight then start loading. I can not find any difference between thrown charges and weighed charges. This does take some practice with the powder measure, its called ,art, I think. So when whipping through the powder dispensing part , if a thrown charge doesn't 'feel' right it is dumped and I then continue on.
Some , are buying electronic scales, don't know much about them, I like the manual set up and when you get into the groove you can dispense a lot of rounds quickly and accurately.
I have a fat barrelled Savage ordered in 260 Rem so we will see how that goes , may be back to weighing every charge but we'll see.

I did a time & motion study between manual powder measures and electronic measures a couple of years ago. The manual measure won going away, because I could charge a 50-round loading block of cases in 2-3 seconds each, instead of the 10-20 seconds it took to charge each case with an electronic measure.

Of course I had to seat bullets as a separate operation, but doing that as another mass-production task still beat seating bullets while the e-measure was filling the next case, and by a considerable margin.

Now, if you're convinced that weighing every powder charge to within 1/10th of a grain is necessary for accurate ammo (and a lot of handloaders are, despite vast evidence to the contrary) then an electronic measure is for you. But if you want to load lots of accurate ammo as quickly as possible, a manual measure is the way to do it.

In fact I just did another T&M study and found that I can come very close to matching the output from a typical progressive press while using my turret press, and the ammo is more precise. But I can only do this by using several techniques that eliminate the unnecessary or inefficient steps most handloaders have "built" into their routines over the years.

Sounds like an excellent idea to expand into a full length article for Handloader or maybe Rifle Loony News. (hint, hint )

I already did a short article for GUNS, and a longer article is on my assignment list for VARMINT HUNTER.

Thanks! I don't generally read those two - Rifle, Handloader and Successful Hunter are my only subscriptions - but will keep an eye open for Varmint Hunter. Do you know what issue it will be in?

The way I do it is with 100 round MTM ammo boxes filled with primed brass. That functions as my "case holding block." Then I fill a plastic ice cream bucket with a few pounds of powder. Holding the aluminum funnel in my left hand over each case, I just dip and toss it in the funnel with my right hand. It's very fast!

Upon completion, I give a visual check to make sure the powder levels look the same, then start seating bullets.

JB, I just love having these discussions with you. Let me explain where you went wrong in your T&M study.

The only time it takes me 10-20 seconds to charge a case with my Chargemaster is on the first charge. As I explained before, I run my CM in automatic mode, which means that when I pour the contents of the pan in my case and then place the pan back in the CM, it starts doing its thing without my help. While I have the case in my hands, I seat the bullet and put the completed cartridge away. Then I pick up the next case, brush the neck, place the funnel and then I pick up the pan and drop the contents in the funnel. Charging the case takes but a second, faster than a powder measure. I put the pan back on the scale and carry on as usual. In other words, I let the equipment do its work while I do mine. It's a lot like having multiple processors in a computer.

Where you went wrong in your T&M study is that you had the electronic dispenser start its work while you were waiting for it, because you wanted to compare apples to apples, in this case, charging the powder. I think we all agree that's is not the optimum use of a device like the Chargemaster.

That's the way I did it too, so now I'm wondering about your loading rate?

Can you load 250 rounds or more per hour? If so, then I'm very interested.

Which is about 60% of what you can comfortably do on a Dillon 550B. I know the powder measure isn't a Redding but I think it'll load all but LR hunting/F-class ammo okay if you can live with ball powder.

I've wondered about using a powder die/funnel at station #2 (550) and dropping a charge already dispensed from an RCBS Chargemaster. Surely someone has tried that for a comparison. I've never wanted to pony up the money for one. I have heard of nothing but problems with the Pact and the Lyman units. Maybe the Chargemaster is the one. Many here seem pleased with theirs.

No, I cannot do much more than about 100 or so .308 match loads in about 45 minutes. I always charge and seat 100 cartridges per batch but I only pick up each cartridge once to charge and seat, rather than twice the way you do it. My bullets are extremely long and I take my time seating them. Almost invariably the CM beeps signaling it has finished dispensing the next load before I have the next case's neck brushed. When do you brush the neck of your cases?

You must understand that I only pretty much load my LR match ammo these days. I read what you said about deviation but I am a bit anal about my LR loads; I do want them to read the exact number that I set the CM to dispense. I don't even want to second guess my ammo in competition, I have enough other issues to deal with.

The other neat thing with the Chargemaster is that it takes but an instant to change loads.

I worked as a power plant operator for many years and i do not like things beeping at me, I have a toaster that beeps when the the bread is toasted it may get punted one morning, so a machine that takes the solitude away from ammo crafting is not for me.......I'm for a beep free zone.

I don't guess you are a fan of shooting timers?

I brush case necks before sizing. The 250 rounds per hour includes neck brushing, which I do with a tiny amount of lube on the brush, combining two steps.

Thanks, fellas. I appreciate it.

I have always used the method of seating a bullet while waiting for the e-dispenser to finish throwing the next charge, but there is one added detail that throws a wrench in that idea- I often load ammo with a partner. It makes no sense for one guy to sit and wait for the e-dispenser to throw a load, while the partner seats a bullet. This is why I want to move to thrown charges. One guy can be throwing powder charges, while the other seats bullets. This should cut down on the total time required to charge and seat bullets considerably.

After speaking with Jim Johnson about his Quick Measure, I've just placed an order for one of his units. He assures me that they are seeing ~0.1gr precision with about a 50gr charge, using powders like IMR4350. I know that I probably don't need that level of precision, even for the 1000yd shooting that I do, but I got so used to 0.1gr consistency with the e-dispenser, that I can't settle for anything less now (right, MD ). Darn OCD. Even if I see 0.2gr variation, life will probably still go on.

[quote=Take_a_knee....I've wondered about using a powder die/funnel at station #2 (550) and dropping a charge already dispensed from an RCBS Chargemaster. Surely someone has tried that for a comparison. ...[/quote]

Of course they have though here a slightly slower operation for extreme accuracy. Dillon machines have been used to load vast quantities of Palma ammunition for the Palma match itself and for other matches under Palma rules as a search on Dillon and Palma will show at some length.

I have no idea what the production rate might be.

As the Precision Shooting booklet on reloading says about reloading for highpower competition at some point the time is better spent at the range rather than at the bench refining the load. Myself when I was shooting NRA pistol my best ammunition had my own cast bullets weighed dead nut nearest tenth on a Lyman Ohaus no +/- and the same for the charge of Bullseye. A total misallocation of my resources at the time I should have dryfired or used an air pistol instead of watching the beam oscillate.

FREX text and pictures on the web

"For most of my reloading I de-cap, full-length size, prime, and seat bullets with a Dillon progressive press. However, I've removed the Dillon powder measure and replaced that with a funnel. I throw the charges with an RCBS UniFlow, then trickle to 0.1 grain, and weigh each charge with a Denver Instrument APX-200, a milligram lab scale. Once I'm satisfied with the charge, I pour it through the funnel into the re-sized case. Then the loading procedure returns to progressive mode......... The best guns I have will shoot about .4 MOA..... " John Whidden

You can disable the beep if you want. I like it because it keeps me moving and provides feedback.

Well, you got me. There is now way that I can pick up 250 cases twice, once to brush and charge and then once to seat a bullet, in 1 hour. That's just too much for me, I would probably fumble something at that rate.

On some cases I don't even brush the necks. A lot of my varmint-round dies just neck the outside of the neck down, and I haven't found not brushing makes any difference in accuracy. In fact it may even even out bullet-pull, by preventing cld-welding between the bullet and neck.

Also, I only neck-size many varmint cases, so don't lube the outside of the cases. When I have to lube the case (as when FL sizing .223's for 3 different rifles) the production rate goes down to about 200 an hour.

Enough, enough, your feats of productivity are astounding and I stand in awe. I think the OP now has a goal and a method to get there.

For me, I will just keep doing it the way I described earlier because I know there is simply no way I can pick up and put down 500 cases in an hour. I would probably scrunch a couple of fingers seating one of the 250 bullets.

One day, you need to make a video of your handloading methodology and post it somewhere so I may learn.