I have a 18" barrel carbine est. MV 2600 with around 2000 at 300 yards. Is this enough to get reliable expansion at 300 yards? Also am I correct estimating 25 fps loss per inch of barrel taken away?

Thanks,
Les

Yes. Vel. loss best be tested, though.

Will work. Tried it.

Barnes TSXs have been tested down to 1400 fps and even that slow produce 150% caliber expansion. they also produce a more destructive wound channel due to those razor sharp petals (as do the Nosler and Hornady Barnes knockoffs.)

You might want to try the 130 and 150 TTSX as you could push them faster.

If you really want to know what is happening, you need a Chrongraph and ballistic gel.

Good shooting and wear ear plugs !

I thought fragmentation gave the "best" wound channel.

Who has tested TSXs down to 1400 fps, and where is that information available?

I haven't seen data from any TSX tests at velocities anyhere close to that low, and according to someone at Barnes a couple years ago, they test their bullets in water at velocities somewhat higher than that velocity (I'm assuming the Barnes rep was talking about their production QA/QC tests). Barnes may have done additional testing, but when I corresponded with their rep a couple years ago, not one of the test velocities mentioned for the various bullets I inquired about was anywhere close to 1400 fps.

Of the TTSXs I have used (very few) I wouldn't call the wound channel all that great, but it was long and skinny. So far Bergers and BT have given the widest wound channel albeit shorter.

I disagree. The critters I've shot with Barnes bullets all died from longer, but narrower wound channels and none of the damage from bullet fragments that was characteristic of the Nosler Partitions.
From what I've seen, the TSX is at it's best at high impact velocites. Nice expansion and almost perfect weight retention. Nosler Partitions, on the other hand, tend to blow off their front sections at high impact speeds and then make a narrower wound channel than an X or a TSX. But the intial wound cavity is very impressive.
Nosler's partition do open quite well at low, 1800 fps., impact speeds. I'd have to see proof than the TSX opens at even lower impact speeds. E

I just spoke with a Barnes rep the other day, and for the .338 bullets we were discussing, minimum suggested impact velocities were 1600 fps and 1800 fps. He never mentioned anything higher or lower than those two speeds for a either TSX or TTSX in 185 gr, 210 gr and 225 grain for the .338.

I'd be curious what they are actually hitting to expand at 1600 fps. A steel plate?

Calling Dr. Interlock, calling Dr. Ballistic Tip ...

When all 4 petals shear off, leaving you with a flat-nosed main shank and 4 buckshot-sized fragments, the wound cavity is pretty decent This tends to happen quite often when the TSX/TTSX impacts at 3000+fps.

As for the OP, I'd use something more C&C-ish at those velocities.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of any of the monolithics from .30 down unless they're driven at least 3000 fps. Though a plastic tip does seem to allow them to open up better at somewhat lower velocities, probably because there's a bigger hole under the plastic.

Above .30 caliber and the hollow-point in TSX's is larger, enough to facilitate expansion at somewhat lower velocities.

Thanks for the info guys. I should have said. I'm limited to factory ammo as of right now. I just got my new fixer uppper back from the smith. It's a Remington 760 that I had never shot on paper before. This was the first trip to the range, ammo used
Rem. 165gr. Corelok avg. just over 1.55"
Nosler Trophy grade 165gr. Accubonds avg. 1.21"
Federal Power Shok 150gr. SP avg. just over .75"
Federal premium 165gr. TSX avg just under .725"

In all reality the with the ranges this gun will be used 300 and under all rounds tested will work just fine. It's just nice to see those little clusters.

Considering I've had bolt guns that shot worse than this little rig, I'm very happy.

Sense this rig will be used both scoped and with a peep sight I also tested return to POI here is 5 rounds each of the Federals with the scope removed and replaced between every shot.

When I get set up for reloading none of this will matter, but at least now I know she shoots. I only had the rifle for a hour before I dropped it off at the smith. Targets are 1" dots, range was 100 yards.

If all you are shooting is deer and want to use a TSX as someone else said, I would go with a lighter bullet the 110 or 130 will give much higher velocity and plenty of bullet for anything less than Elk.

I shoot both 300 Win Mag and 30/06. Which Barnes, the 165 or the 168, is designed for the 300 Win Mag and which for the other 30 cal chamberings? I have been shooting 168 out of 30/06 and 165 out of 300 Win Mag. Is that the proper bullet for both?

In Africa we used 168 TSX out of 19" barrel gun up to 325 yards with excellent results. On same trip I brought along some Winchester 150 gr XP3 to test as we would be shooting allot of game and some at ling range this load shot flat in my gun. The TSX worked close and far. The XP3 failed miserably at 80 yards on a shot from front angled into the front shoulder of a blesbok. It went in partly making a mess but never penetrated the chest cavity. Chased and tracked it for 1-1/2 hours till we got within 350 yards and dropped it. Sometimes stuff happens I know but I know I can trust the 168 TSX out of a 19" 308 barrel near or far. Lighter and flatter does not always work like you think it will. Sometimes you just have to try and test a bullet for yourself. It comes down to what you have confidence in

For the guy who talked to the "Barnes Rep" about 338s, this thread is about THIRTY CALIBER. Pony up and join the Barnes Copper Club and you can get data on tons and tons of tests and real world performance. All I know about 338 TSXs is the cow Elk I took broadside at, I recall, under 150 yards with a 185 TSX in a puny 338 Federal. Broke both shoulders, my favorite shot, flop dead and bullet penetrated quite a way into the clay bank she was standing by. Results would have been the same had I been shooting a 338 RUM.)

Wonder why most PHs suggest the 270gr TSX as the bullet for Cape Buffalo for hunters using the 375 H&H. (again you'ld have to pony up and subscribe to African Hunter magazine.

You find me a published gun writer who has hunted everything, everywhere, who thinks Barnes bullets are NG. Start with Boddington why don't you ?

I hate to assume, but will take a guess. You're from Minne right? I'd guess mainly whitey's out of a tree stand, and like you said 300 or less right?

If so, then I see no reason to use anything but those Federal Classic Power Shock 150 grain loads. I'd use those over a TSX for small big game like deer any old day.

Now if in elk country on a consistent basis then I can the thought of maybe going TSX, but for small big game like deer I can't see a reason to do so...

Dober

Makes perfect sense. Any decent cup and core bullet will kill any Whitetail that walks with good bullet placement. When the Barnes wins (even on a big Whitetal) is when you jump that monster 6x6 out of a dead fall and he is heading straight away.

The "blue box" federal will stop in the paunch, the TSX will probably come out the other end or end up in the neck somewhere.

Shots I would have passed with any other bullet (except a partition) put a Deer, Elk and Moose down with one shot each with the ancient slow 35 Whelen and a 225 TSX out to 200 paces. Messy gutting jobs, but meat is meat.

To the OP, any of the bullets you tested should work fine for deer with good shot placement - which is not in the butt.

Not to mention shooting jumping, running stuff...

Must use dogs I guess...

OP; for starters that's a slick looking rig. As far as your ammo choice you ought to be fine running a 165gr TSX out of a .308 Win up to and farther than 300 yds. Although on whitetail a 130 and 150 would be just as good. I have heard of folks dropping elk using Barnes 150's with ease. I'm still flattening deer and black bear with 150gr XLC's (discontinued) out of my '06 with such ease it's almost boring. I run those out of a 20" tubed Ruger #1 RSI. I have eight rounds left and I expect eight dead critters out of them. Never recovered one but the critters have never taken more than five steps so I don't doubt the performance or need to inspect wound channels. By the way my load is a full charge load of IMR 4064 which the manual lists at a smidgen over 3100fps in a 24" barrel. Accuracy is five shots in one ragged little hole at 100yds. Once you start reloading you should be able to figure out a load that will get you groups just as good or better than your factory ammo.

Dober, I do agrea with you. The federal blue box 150's would work great for stand hunting whitetail. But I have set this rig up for tracking deer in the north east where I have a camp in the ADK mountians in NY.

Not to open a can of worms about a$$ shooting deer but in that area I'm talking 1 deer per sq. mile you may only see one deer per season. It's possible to track the same buck for 3 weeks of the 2 month season. You either catch them sleeping in there bed (if your really good) or you have a runner. I need to be sure I will get complete pass thru at any angle including straight away.

To everyone that suggest using the light for caliber TTSX. that is the plan when I get set up to roll my own. But until then I'm limited to factory fodder. Until then I figured that if people were getting good results with the 165's I'd use them.
The 300 yard part is for years that we have no snow, whereas I could be watching clear cuts or burns where the scope would be on instead of the peep.

Interthem are those you caught the TSX? If so, how fast? Thinking I might do better with the tipped TSX out of the carbine.

Thanks Brinky72 that's some good info and a great confidence builder.

In factory ammo I have used the Black Hills Gold 168 TSX 308 Winchester and it is another option for you

Do they make that in a 06?
Sorry everyone, I ment 30 cal as in 30/06 but if you can do it with a 308 I shouldn't have any problem with the 06

Guess all the animals in MT stand broadside for the hunters there eh ? They don't in Wyoming or Idaho !
Growing up hunting Whitetails in the thickets of upstate NY (as well as rabbits, birds and fuzzy tails) you learn how to shoot animals on the run/flying coming, crossing or going. You eat tofu, I prefer Elk and with my R1 (as with my 1100 back when), running game is not difficult, especially, when they are close.
(I shoot over 200 rounds of ammo in sporting clays and trap, weekly)

Funny how nobody get upset when someboy is blabbing about shoot game at 600 or more yards but think running game shooting is "bad".

Some people (very few) can do the former, far more can do the latter as a lot more folks shoot clays than graduate from USMC sniper school.

Chuckie, You really got to get that dumb blond of yours to:

open her mouth more
learn to move her head in the right directions.

then your vison would improve and you'ld stop growing hair on your hands.

Keep drinkin that butt water !

BTW, how is Bricky's list coming along ?

That's him in the back.

I like that rifle, who did the work, I could really live with one of those.

I had a local smith to do the work. One that I wouldn't reccimended. Bad experience. You have a lot better smiths for the 760 a couple states north of you.

Interthem, be nice. Maybe that's as far as she needs to open her mouth.

Id much rather see some accomplished wing shooter take a running shot on a 50 yard deer or elk than some yahoo slinging lead at 600 just because they bought a scope with BDC or twisty turrets.

There are many angles and shot placement choices other than up the butt. Most others wait until they have a shot they can make, and that it is not up the butt.

You on the other hand are talking about shooting them up the butt, which indicates a low level of proficiency, which to me, means you should not be taking that shot, but rather waiting for a better shot choice.


Because they are making well placed shots, while you are bragging about butt shots.

A little mutatis mutandis, and voila!


I'd rather see an accomplished long range shooter take a 600 yard shot than some yahoo slinging lead at a running 50 yard deer just because he went duck hunting once.

We are talking about a .30-06, correct?

Re the original question, I have "penciled" more than a few deer at 300+ yds with the old X bullets out of my .30-06. As has been noted by others, the monolithic bullets work best at the higher velocities in the >.30 cal range.

Regarding old cup and core bullets shedding there jacket on raking shots, that is not quite true all the time. My first elk I killed was an old regressive bull that I shot in the timber with a .270Win and a 130 gr. Speer Grand Slam. It penetrated over 5' of elk and exited. The range was about 75 yards in dog hair timber. One shot, walked 15 feet and fell over deader than a doornail.

If you are worried about c&c bullets, have you tried any of the bonded bullets in your '06? I know both Federal and Remington offer a bonded load in that cartridge. 180 grain bullets tend to shoot well in most '06's, and have a nice balance of mass and velocity.

I would personally recommend that you take a look at the 180 Remington Core Lokts. A stellar choice, and they would probably shoot awesome in your carbine. They all also very affordable. They will perform vary similar to the 180 Hornady Inter Lock, which I really, really like as a hand loaded bullet. I have used the 180's for antelope, deer, and elk hunting, killing stuff really close, and really far away. The only problem I had with them was how boring they were. No glamor, no fuss, they just kill stuff.

At 200 paces, I would be willing to bet that those bullets were going faster than 1400 fps, and they sure don't look like they expanded to 150% of their original diameter....

Its always entertaining watching Larry bitch and moan on taking "Long Range" shots on game and in the same breath condone taking an ass shot...

Ethical hunting indeed...

So those are bullets pulled from lengthwise shots from a Whelen?

I shoot a .358 mainly on deer and to be honest, that's scary bullet permanence from a bullet that went through that much animal. It seems like it'd be an FMJ through the ribs. I am glad you posted those pics.

However, I must concede that they appear to have been THE bullet for an intentional Texas Heart Shot.

I have a 225-gn Partition I stopped in a deer (!) a couple years ago, and I wasn't that impressed with the wound channel from that bullet on this year's buck (on lungs). So I'm not bustin' TSX balls here.

I'm intrigued by the upcoming 200-gn Accubond for the slower .35's. I should be able to nudge 2700 fps with that bullet. I suspect it'll do more damage to lungs.

Boys I'm not trying to start a war here on shot placement. If you hunt long enough bad shots happen even on a still targets. When tracking deer you don't have the pleasure of picking your shots or looking for that fantom limb that has jumped in front of your bullet. When you jump a buck you have .5 of a second to figure out where the deer is going, pick a opening and make the shot as soon as the deer enters your sight picture. We all try to make the best shot we can, but bad shots do happen. It's a lot more like shooting at a grouse or woodcock than it is for 99% of deer hunting that most people do. The reason for a TSX over a cup and core is when the bad shots do happen and you 8 to 10 miles from the nearest road, it's 2 hours till dark you don't want a bullet to blow up on the hip bone of a 200#+ whitetail. Failure is not a option

On bonded bullets. Yes I have thought of those and plan on trying Federal Fusion, Swift AFrame, and the bonded core lok.

Back to the original ? Will the TSX reliably open up at 2000 fps? I'd say for the most part yes according to others post. Am I happy with the amount they open (per pics) I'd say no. Do they kill? Again yes, you can't recover bullets form the ones that got away. The reason I asked is at the first range session with a new gun they proved to be the most accurate of the 4 brands I tried. these were the least likely to blow up. Out of the 4 are these the least likely to fail? Probably not.

Accomplished long range shooters are very deadly. The key to every style of shooting and hunting is practice, practice, and more practice. Most don't practice, just go to the range in the weeks before season. Look at all the people with very capable long range rigs that never shoot past 100 yards who are getting bigger groups than I can do with a peep.

Different hunting styles and areas require different abilitys. On my lease out east is 2200 acres with one 13 acre field that we don't allow hunting. So if you enjoy tracking and don't take less than perfect shots all your eating is your tag.

Thank you all for the great info. But once again the who's right who's wrong debate has ruined another thread. And I'm as guilty as the rest for liking to argue.

In the end only you know your abilitys and only you can make the call on ethics

Wow... just freaking wow.

I imagine a setting of a retirement home where interthem is sitting around with his buds talking about stuff he's only though he's done and telling this story only to forget the story and contradict himself on ethics. Then emphatically stomp his foot and pout when his buds laugh at him and call him on it.

Next he'll be talking about pulling his 5th wheel horse trailer to a FS trail heads at 11,000 feet and how he's been there and done that...um except he's a topper on his pick-up...oh and there are no trail heads at 11,000 ft.

I suppose you use your rifles when you shoot the clays and trap then right? I mean since you're so confident that you can hit those jumped whitetail on a regular basis. I'd love to see it. Especially in those wide open woods of Upstate NY where "wing" shooting whitetails is easily done in the openness.

laffin' I guess at your age imagination is your best buddy.

I'm gonna go get out of my sniper PJ's and pour another cup of coffee.

Just for fun google Benoit Brothers Tracking School and watch Lanny shoot bean cans out of the air with a 270. Oh and by the way the avg. weight of the deer he has taken in his life is 260 pounds. There dad is in his 80's and still puts 10 to who knows how many miles a day tracking whitetails in some of the toughest country around. From about 8 years old he tracked and killed on the run some very impressive deer. Starting out with a old trapdoor 45/70.Tracking is a way of life in the north east. He!! Remington even put out a special edition rifle with those boys name on it. Was suppose to be a run of 1000 guns to sell for $1000 but pop's pulled the plug after only 170. They sell for over $10,000 IF you can find one. Or google the Bennett brothers in NY and check out the 200 pound plus monsters they have taken. Every single one was either running or sleeping. They practice a lot and there good.

That pretty much sums it up...

I prefer to spend my days eating the rewards after the shot not tracking.

I believe he meant tracking an unwounded deer before the shot.

"Interthem, be nice. Maybe that's as far as she needs to open her mouth."

For Chuck Norris ? He must be hung like my horse. (You ever read about what's in the water in Butte ?)

Obvious tht we have a few (very few) folks here who hunted Whitetails in the thick stuff where the good bucks go and lay up before dawn.

Having done it more years then most of the would be experts here have walked on earth, I can promise you, no adult Whitetail buck (4+ years) stands up broadside for some yo yo with a 10 pound tactical wanna be rifle to twiddle his knobs, set up his bipod and finally take a shot. Neither do Elk when jumped in the black timber where they like to lay up.

I note there are a few experienced hunters here who know reality and more wannabes who probably could not hit a deer/elk in overdive at 50 yards because their clumsy rifle with some huge scope would be as useful for a snap shot as a 155mm Howitzer.

There are hunters and there are sniper wannabes. Sad to say more and more of the latter.

Amusing all this aversion to shooting an animal going away, they must like tofu better than wild meat.

As for the 5th wheel/camper shell dolt.... I have a very nice lift in my barn that takes the cap off in 10 minutes or less. Have a look "Mr. Expert".

http://www.topcaplift.com/

Most of the time when just my wife and I are riding I take the bumper pull trailer, but when a group is going, there may be 5 or more real trucks pulling multi-horse slant 5th wheels. Wanna tell us about your extensive riding experience in Wyoming.... hmm ?

We have adventures and pictures, you have BS sorta like the fake Negro serial liar.

Probably never been here and never will:

Growing up back east.. well yeah I hunted Whitetails from WV to NY. sooo. anyway...

lemme see riding in Wyoming...

does it look like this?











[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/packtrips/websize/Colter%204-6%20Months%20053.jpg[/img]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/packtrips/websize/Colter%204-6%20Months%20064.jpg[/img]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/packtrips/websize/Colter%204-6%20Months%20011.jpg[/img]


[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/rides/websize/Grinnel%20003.jpg[/img]

Your spot I'll "never been too..."

Is probably just over the bowl from here...

laffin... you go cowboy...

I still would like to know where that trail head at 11K is...

Cocadori where did you hunt in WV?i grew up in there. And I was referring to tracking healthy deer , one that has no problem leading you on the 15 mile adventure of your life not fallowing a wounded one. By the way how much did you have to pay that outfitter to scout, set up camp, and haul you and all your gear up that mountian? Just wondering

Nestorville would be the closest town. We have a 99 year hunting lease of 4000 acres there.

I packed myself into those hills. Often.

I'd love to see interthem tie a diamond, basket or even a double diamond. Hell a sierra box would impress me from him.

Crickets from interhem... what not extensive enough? Need more pics?


Just curious.. what is a real truck.

I drive a '06 Dodge 3500 Dually. With a smidge of stuff to um..make more horse power...laffin.

Is that a real truck?

You drive a Dodge right.. green one I think.

Great pics Ric.

Thanks.. goes along with your sig line.. ;-)

Les; FWIW, I shot a nice eight point (eastern) buck that dressed 186 lbs with '06 in 2004 with factory green box 180 gr core lokts at 200 yards down a pole line. He was facing me dead on and wasn't budging in the dwindling day light. The bullet went from breast bone straight to the pelvis and broke it in three pieces. I found the slug just right of the tail almost poking out the hide. One nicely mushroomed chunk of lead and the deer was DRT. A little blood shot meat but it was still meat in the freezer.

Also do share some details on the gun. Stock, finish, and who did the work.

Cocadori,
Nice country! I have done most of my hunting a titch north of you, but on foot:





A little lower in elevation than you, but that's one of the reasons I have a love/hate relationship with horses (I would love to have horses/ I hate that I don't!).

Larry,
Being that I am a foot hunter, I found myself hunting the edges and margins where most other foot hunters were too lazy to tread. So some of my shots were far, and a lot were actually quite close.


25 yards.


70 yards.


125 yards. This one was hiding behind a juniper, with only a 12" hole available to make it work.

All three of these were shot with either a Barnes TSX or MRX that were handloaded a smidgeon warmish.

I have also hunted in WI, where it was a bit thickish when hunting whitetails.

But I digress.

So back to the original question of a Barnes 165gr. TSX at 2000 fps...... yeah it will "work", but it wouldn't be the best tool in the shed for that job. Cup and core works a lot better at those "modest" velocities then most would give it credit for. The dread of jacket shucking is more a symptom of marketing then on-game performance.

If you are worried about losing mass and lack of penetration, those 180's will do better than 150's or 165's. A 350# deer won't stop one at 50 paces, but vice versa holds true.

But if the OP is set on going marquee, I would recommend a bonded bullet over a monolithic.

brinky 72,

180 gr. core lokts are an awesome bullet in the '06. A lot flatter than most would give them credit for, especially for >300 yards.

absolutely.

Brinky the gun started life as a 1968 Remmy 760 30-06 with 22" bbl. I started by chopping off 4" of barrel. Williams WGRS peep with Skinner post front were installed. Modified Durasight base for TC Encore mounted in front of peep. B&C stock dipped in Mossy Oak Brush then coated with there Maxx Guard coating, it's like the coating that Browning uses. Makes for a better grip. Pachmyer Decellarator pad. Leupold QWR high rings, so the scope clears the peep. Leupold Vari -XIII 1.75-6 short version. GroveTech swivels, and a upside down Montana sling. All accessories plus 2 mags and slide rails coated in Armor Black Cerakote with the receiver and barrel coated in Desert Sand Cerakote. The work was done by a local smith who will never see a gun of mine again. It was so bad that I had to threaten to involve the ATF.

..............A 25 fps per inch loss sounds about right. You very well could get less too. My 300 WSM 16.5" barreled compact averaged 4.3% to 4.5% behind the velocities of two friend`s 24" 300 WSMs I tested. 16.4 to 19.5 fps per inch loss were the results using the same loadings. Those comparisons were between those three particular rifles. Other identical rifles will vary.

I take it that you did not chrony your rifle before the barrel cutdown? Chrony after a cut down, is the best way to determine exactly how much velocity you lost.

Since your cut down was 4", you`d be safe to figure about a 100 fps loss. Regarding bullet expansion, a 100 fps loss from the muzzle with an estimated 100 fps loss upon impact, won`t hardly make any difference where bullet expansion is concerned given a 300 yard impact.

As I do with my compact, you load, treat the same, and hunt with that rifle just as though it had a longer barrel. Whatever your former 22" barrel did on game, that same barrel now an 18" barrel, will also be able to do the same things given the same killing distances.

Go hunt and don`t worry about a shorter than average barrel length.

Where about's?

Having ponies to use in the hills offers advantages. Having ponies that ride and pack offers additional advantages. One that packs essentials is great, one that packs dead stuff is more greater.. ;-)

They are however not like puppies or kittens and a hell of a lot more expensive to keep. Especially if one keeps em right. Body condition 5, sound and with the correct iron on their feet isn't cheap or effortless.

But soooo worth it come September.

love to see interthem do that. A vision of Elmer Fudd enters the cranial cavity.

For some reason, I thought you lived in WY. Sorry!!!!!

Those particular pics are from SC MT just north of the Park. I lived in Manhattan (22 mi. W of Bozone) for almost a decade. I hunted the Elkhorns, Gravelys, Absarokas, Beartooths, Snowies, Pryors and a few other spots here and there. As a kid I lived in BLGS, and before that we were out in the SE by Fallon. Thought Terry was a big town!

Work has recently brought me up to Alaska.

I've never hunted "off" of horses, but growing up I was around them a lot, and often my chores included taking care of them. Not pets, or even horses for hunting/packing, just working horses on ranches. There's a reason why so many ranchers have 4 wheelers. Though for moving stock, a good horse with a good rider is all business, and they are a joy to watch working as a team.

Oh, I bet he can track them real good. Nothing leaves a blood trail like roadkill.....

I think it looks pretty sharp for such a horrible job. I have a SS Ruger Hawkeye I want to put some irons on and cerekote to cover the chalky, white metal look of the SS finish that Ruger does. I dig the color of that finish. Might look good with the laminated Ruger Hawkeye stock.
Stopped by a smith in the area today and he had a '06 760 that had a busted forearm. He picked it up from an old fella that used it hunting the rocky, Fire Steel River basin in western Upper Peninsula of Michigan. She had a few miles but I thought of your gun immediately. Bad thing was I fell in love with a M77 RSI in 250 Savage and failed to look close at the 760. The action was butter smooth though.