Is there a reason why the push feed Winchesters aren't as popular as the Remington 700 for rifle builds? I am beginning to like the push feed model 70s for their open trigger, three position safety.
Thanks

Fred

The biggest reason the M700's are so popular for rifle builds is because their receivers are ROUND. Makes them easy for smiths to work on them and their is a far greater selection of aftermarket goodies for the M700 over any incarnation M70.

That the round action of the model 700 would be much easier to true up in a lathe to true the action and other procedures makes sense.
I was just wondering what, if anything that the non bench rest shooter (like me) was giving up by using the Model 70 action to come up with a rifle that would shoot maybe 3/4 minute of angle.
The push feed Model 70s are easier and cheaper to find, at least in my travels.

Fred

I guess the push feed M-70's would be a cheap way to get a shooter. Some year ago, I bought a 7mm Rem Mag push feed, super cheap. I put another stock on it and it's a shooter. My son has it and it's a good deer rifle.

IMHO, the M-70's from that era are pretty crude castings and don't have much going for them aesthetically. Other than cheap, I don't want one.

DF

While the Model 70 pushfeed is just fine in many respects, there may be some reasons for some to prefer the 700. In the end, it depends on what is important to you, the shooter.
The Winchester has the three position safety, the open trigger and an integral recoil lug. Those are the positives. On the negative side, it is not as strong (Remington locking lugs are larger and both are solid), it doesn't control gas quite as well and bedding is more complex.
On average, the Remingtons seem to feed a bit better. For many years I provided warranty service for both makes and I don't recall any 700's coming in with feeding issues while it was not uncommon with Winchesters. On the other hand, it was rare to have Winchesters come in with extractor issues while it was not uncommon in the Remingtons. By the way, Remington's extractor issues were mostly confined to magnum chamberings and it is fair to say, if the problem didn't exist out-of -the-box, it wasn't likely to come up.
Trigger and safety issues were a wash with both brands having problems with about the same frequency.
Remingtons often had issues with the bolt stop (mostly related to poor maintenance) while Winchesters almost never did.
I think it's important to point out that with both brands, all issues were more a matter of failed quality control as opposed to a design shortcoming.
I have two Model 70 pushfeed rifles. Both of these are currently performing target rifle duties and are doing well.
I worked with a guy who spent a good portion of early adulthood living in (I believe) Kenya or Rhodesia. His main rifle was a 1965 vintage Model 70 in 300 Win Mag. With this he had shot numerous lions, cape buffalo and tons of plains game. It would be hard to convince him there was anything wrong with that old Winchester. GD

M-70's have always been forged, not cast. The ones from that era do look a bit crude but certainly no worse than the Remington SPS that is so popular today. IMO it was a case of something that the public was not ready to accept at that time, the expected finish then was a higher polish blue, not a bead-blast type finish.

Royce - Every M-70 I have owned has exhibited better "out-of-the-box" accuracy and was easier to develop loads for than comparable Model 700's. As mentioned previously the 700's are easier to true up and there are more after market goodies for them. It takes a gunsmith longer to set up a M-70 action for truing work and he could do a couple of Rem's while doing one M-70 - time is money.

The down side of M-70 is that they receivers weigh a bit more than Rem 700's, the triggers are not as easy to adjust to a lower pull weight (less than 2#) as Rem 700's.

drover

Royce - those ol' push feed Model 70's can be real tack drivers. For a long time they were a standard choice for competitors in NRA Highpower shooting, for long range match rifles.

For a few years I used a Model 70 match rifle, built by Jim Cloward, using a push feed action. It was superbly accurate. The fellow who owned it before me took it all over the world in Palma competition. Great rifle.

Another real good Model 70 I own is a .300 WSM with the oddly named "controlled round push feed" version of the action. I'm not sure about all that, but dang, it's a shooter.

If you like the Model 70 push feed action, go right ahead and use it with confidence. It makes a good, accurate rifle.

Regards, Guy

When I was first getting into custom guns, I called and spoke with about a half dozen nationally known gunsmiths. One I spoke with, who has since passed away, said "If I do everything right on a Remington, and have a good barrel, I should get a half minute gun. If I do everything just as well on a Winchester, with just as good a barrel, I expect a 3/4 minute gun."

So my accuracy-oriented LR guns (22-250AI, 6.5x284, etc.) are tricked out 700s. But my big game rifles (7 mag through .416 Rem) are all M70s because I prefer the safety, trigger, and extractor.

Royce,
Another reason the 700's are generally more popular is because the trigger lock time of the 700 is among the fastest of factory production rifles.

But you can buy kits for the 70 that have lighter alloy firing pins and stronger springs that a gunsmith can install that help the 70's lock time

The 70 push feed is my favorite factory rifle. The recessed bolt face is safer than the 70 CRF designs that have a big cut for the world war I style extractors. And they have a better extractor than the Remmy.

I have two push feed 70's that shoot as accurately as my two 700's.
Happy Hunting

The round receiver on the m700 creates a LIGHTER ACTION- this may be the single most common reason why Remington are used on many modern glass stocked rifle builds. They are about 6 ounces lighter per action length than a m70.


The other reasons is they are relatively cheap and available in quantity. They are the short block Chevy of rifle builds.

Nice summaries by posters, comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the two actions. Good info from personal experience.

I may have spoken hastily about investment castings on the post '64 M-70's. That was my impression, evidently not quite accurate and I appreciate the heads up on that.

DF

Mostly it has to do with very poor marketing by winchester, they should have called the rifle something else other that Model 70. You had old Cactus Jack going on a rant the last decade and then some of his life on what a piece of junk the rifle was, it was mostly a cosmetic thing, they fixed that but the damage was done. The M-70 XTR's are some fine accurate hunting rifles. I had two feather weights and one standard weight all it 270 that would pile 130 gr Norma loads well under a a quarter out of the box, the 7 x 57 feather weight was a different story. A bedding job too care of that. In the end Remington won, because it had better marketing at the time 1962 and that other thing the 7mm Remington Mag. Winchester was just left at the starting gate.

Fred I think another reason the remingtons are more popular is that there is just plain more aftermarket 'stuff' for them...more stocks, triggers, etc. etc.

I'll admit to always having had a bit of fetish for the push feed winchesters, slick action, and accurate, for sure...

People gonna think you weird or something...

Other than aesthetics, they're pretty solid guns, later ones prettier than early ones. And they don't need retrofitting with custom three position, striker locking safeties and Sako type extractors...

DF

THAT would be something new around here.....

IMO another thing that hurt Winchester badly is that they never had a true short action until 1994, if I recall the date correctly. Prior to that they used the same action length for all calibers which meant that if you had Winchester chambered in 222, for instance, it was built on a long action. The long action action added unnecessary weight and frankly looked a bit odd with the smaller cartridges.

Probably another contributing factor to Winchesters not being as popular as Remingtons was they they never offered a lot of variation in stock styles, barrel contours, etc., than Remington did. Remingtons seems to have had a better (more aggressive) marketing department than Winchester did (and still does).

I own more Remingtons than Winchesters but only because Remington seemed to have something off the shelf with more appeal to me than Winchester did. But, if I had to choose between Winchester and Remington I don't know which way I would go.

drover

drover,

Good point about the short action, though as I recall Win. did come out a little earlier with a short-action push-feed.

The 700 short-action became a favorite for gunsmiths building mountain rifles, due to the light weight--and Remington didn't do badly on that theme either. Winchester pretty much ignored the lightweight rifle trend for a long time.

I have a couple of push-feed Model 70's and they work really slickly. All that I've been around have shot anywhere from adequately to VERY well. Winchester did start to come back into the market when they introduced the push-feed Featherweight model--which also had the nicest shaped stock on a Model 70, ever, at least to that point. The pre-'64 stocks, even the Featherweight, had their faults.

That's kinda of a lame excuse. I can indicate in a Winchester action using my action truing jig just as fast as I can idicate a Remington action....

I like them too. I keep hoping very few catch on as they are still inexpensive.

The bad reputation from the ugly 65-68 or there about models is still the biggest factor IMHO. They got a bashing from the press that was amazing.

Also, if most who are going to spend a bunch on a rifle build want a Winchester most of them go with a CRF action.

The Remington's are a little more common and it can be cheaper to work on them.

Carried to an odd extreme, if you change the safety to a 3-position, the extractor to a SAKO type and get a simple after market trigger you can have most of the features most folks like on the Winchester.

And at a cost of what?

$400-$500 plus the action?

How much is a round body Dakota?

DF

my model 70 push feed actions owe NO apology to any Remington 700 Receiver...

The XTR pushfeeds have always been very nice IMO. My XTR FWT is named "Old Reliable" for many reasons.

I had a model 70 pushfeed target in 06 I shot highpower with and shot my best 600 prone ever with that rifle and I kick myself because I sold that rifle. Great rifle.

The reason I asked, I just picked up a push feed in 30/06 for $250- I can restock, refinish and re barrel it as necessary and still not be into it for an obscene amount of money, having a rifle twisted and throated the way I want.
I don't know if it's just old age or what, but I am being disillusioned with the current crop of new factory rifles.
Start out paying over $600 for new, then have to have it bedded, trigger work done, try to find a round that is short enough to feed in the mag and still be in the same zip code as the rifling, and then it might or might not shoot. Whether it shoots or not, it often takes half a bottle of copper cleaner to get the bore clean.
Some good info here, thanks everybody.

Fred

The information below is taken from Stuart Otteson's book - The Bolt Action. His book is recognized as a definitive work on bolt action designs. It is well worth a read and a great reference book if you can find one at a reasonable price, otherwise Wolfe Publishing sells them on CD for around $25.00 or so.

The following is taken from the section on Pre-64 Winchesters but the same applies to the post-64 Winchester since there were no changes made that would have an effect on the rigidity of the action, unless you would want to consider that a short action would be more rigid than the longer action.

The drawings referred to in the quote will not copy so you will have to rely on the text. It is too bad that they would not copy because it is clear from them just how stiff a model 70 receiver really is.

"One occasionally reads how siderail receivers lack the rigidity of cylindrical types, this conclusion usually supported by comparing the Remington Model 700 and Mauser M98. Yet, the Model 70 proves that the siderail type can also be made very stiff. As the accompanying drawings show, its deep girder-like midsection makes it one of the most rigid bolt-action receivers
ever designed."

drover