Just an interesting question. What so you have to stop bad guys? I am in the market for a new toy, more so out of need this time. 10-22 and S&W J frame will do untill the weekend or so. I am thinking something along the lines of an 870 with a 20" or so barrel. I have had the Win 1300's before. Camp Defender. I was not impressed. Not real fond of the Mossbergs with all the garbage on them. I had an 11-87 with a short barrel with rifle sights and liked it, just hate the tall sights on it. It is gone now and I find my battery lacking. I want choke tubes cause cylinder don't cut it. I am thinking being turkey season coming I could find something easily. Vent rib is not a must have.

Not in the least interested in lights on forearm or heat shields, but a 2 or 3 shot extension might be a good thing. Kind of think the side saddle and speed feed stocks are tacky.

So it will either be a modified turkey gun that an extra barrel for bird hunting (read CROW) or something AR'ish. Possibly a Mini 14. Recent prowlers and attempt to get in my parents house and grandmothers prompted the idea. That and a pole light in the yard.

The Rem shotgun seems to be what I will get, just wondering what else is used around the campfire? I think I know everything concerning defensive weapons, just very narrow in my view. Tell me if something comes to mind.

Worse case here with any shots houses are between 100 to 400 yards apart and mainly brick. No kids in the house so shotgun with something along #4 to #4Buck is in order. Seems like I shouldn't have anything much escape, and if so shouldn't do any real damage elsewhere.

Gee I miss my Kimber 45 now too.

You are on the right track. I had a Remington Home Defense that was nice. & shot extension and simple bead. An extra barrel can be had for under $150 and the gun itself cost me $250. Load it up with your shot and a simple buttstock carrier with slug for those longer shots that may present itself or going through a car door. Technically once he's out of the house he is no longer fair game but look for appications outside of the home. .223 you will probably get too much range and penetration where you are at. Illumination in the front and back yard is good, motion sensors set high will help save you electricity when you don't need it. Look it that 870 Home Defense, it sounds like what you are looking for. I got rid of mine only because I have an Ithica 37 Police so really didn't need two. Ryan

Search for 223 hp penetration data. It's not any more dangersous in a house than any other CF.

Personally, I have a Beretta 1200FP. I'm of the opinion that if 6 rounds of 12ga don't solve my home invasion problem I'm pretty much screwed.

At one time I hand a 44mag trapper carbine (180gr Cor-Bon). I've never found a comfortable & handy 223 (I did find one worth a bit of testing Sat).

The beretta mentioned is retailed a little more than I care to invest at this time. Fixin' to head to a few sites to browse the pictures.

The only problem with the shotgun, from the theoretical possibility perspective at least, is that we always seem to leave it IN the house, and if some bad guys get there before YOU do, they've got YOUR gun AND you're not expecting them to be there. Nobody seems to take it out of the safe each night and lock it back securely the following morning.

The handgun, on the other hand, has the primary asset that it's easily transportable. Thus, you can take it with you to and from the car much more easily and consistently. The downside you trade off by going to the pistol is that it's the hardest of the 3 (rifle, shotgun, pistol) to shoot accurately, and thus effectively.

There just ain't any perfect answer to your question, but the main rule of getting in a gunfight is and will always be to "Have a gun." ANY gun - and know how to use it effectively.

When I was growing up, we never locked our doors at night. It just ain't that way any more, and unfortunately, it's reasonable to deal with this issue BEFORE something happens. If you're lucky, no harm done. If not, it COULD save your life.

The main thing is to try to govern your mindset, whatever you choose to do, and notice things that would indicate potential trouble. If you see a strange, maybe shabby looking van in your garage, it's best to drive on by and use the cell phone to call for help first. THEN deal with it as you will and/or they advise. Even cops call for backup before barging into such a situation. It's crazy for us to do any different.

The first rule of a gunfight may be to have a gun, but the first rule of surviving a fight is to NOT BE THERE .... IF there's an option. After all, you can't know how many of them there are or where they're all at, etc., etc., etc.

I like the .45 auto. Maybe you could get that Kimber back? Or one like it? Once you're inside and known safe, a shotgun sure would be a good pick, though. Leverguns in calibers like .357 or .44 carry a good payload of rounds in the magazine, especially in the longer barreled "Cowboy" versions (but of course they're longer, too, and not as convenient in some situations), and they can be fed extra rounds to top off the magazine while still being "in action" as the glossy magazines are wont to put it these days.

There ain't no right or wrong answer, really. Just get and use what you like and are comfortable with, and know how to use it, and keep your eyes open. Most burglars are pretty much harmless unless cornered, and few are armed when they go in, but just ONE exception to that can positively ruin your day.

Life's not a certain thing, and neither are these type questions and situations. If you knew what you'd face, you'd arrange not to be there.

Just remember that the pistol is what you're most likely to HAVE WITH YOU. That counts for a lot. I stick mine in my belt when I go inside, and clear the chamber only after I'm inside. Some folks wouldn't like that much, but I don't care. It's MY house, and MY responsibility to do it right. Part of being a man, and one with liberties, is making these type decisions for one's self and family.

I just set my Claymore and trip wire in the hall before I go to bed. Sleep sound.

Now where did I leave that clacker? RANGER! NO! BAD DO.......

If you see me, I have the S&W. There is pretty much somebody here or across the street at all times. Not that that helps 100%. Somebody has tried to get in my dad's house 2 times within the last 3 years, while he was home. Once was early one sunday morning. He spotted the lookout kid in the front yard hiding behind a 12 foot tall spruce. Since then the spruce got bobbed at the bottom so a good 15 to 20 inches from ground to lowest limbs. The lookout alerted the other kid about dad waking up and they hit the road.

Two weeks ago my grandmother heard something at the back of the house. We thought she was crazy....kind of part of her health...well that rocked on and tonight just before this post mom called and asked me to look at my grandmothers house. She had spotted someone slipping around.

There aint any reason for someone to be in her back yard/ side of my lot.

No real breakins in this general are, but I live within 5 miles of two states. And a lot of invasions just across the state line lately.

I need to check in on state law. Last I heard while at a gun shop in front of either DEA or ST. trooper I could use deadly force to protect life or property, or go in aid to someone to protect their life or property.

I know Tennessee was different at that time. If you can get out of the house and let them leave on their on, you can't shoot them. That was at Y2K though.

Marlin 44 magnum rifle. Looks like a hunters rifle in front of a jury, can be loaded "on the fly", and rates real high on the one shot stopping power scale.

My own beef against .223's for home defense is that they're so friggin' loud, after all is said and done I would prefer to have some hearing left.

I would second the Marlin lever carbine (or a Winchester etc), mine's in .38/.357 mag, takes the same ammo as my Mod 60 j-frame and, dependent upon the ammo, groups around 4"-6" at 100 yards. Fun to shoot too.

Birdwatcher

How about a German Shepherd?

I prefer the pump shotgun. When you rack that slide, people pay attention.

In Ga deadly force to protect property? Yeah, you need to check that one. Tn leave if you can? Uh, no.

This is just going to be general thoughts. I can't pick a gun for you as what suits me might not you and vice versa. So these then are just points to ponder on.

Shotguns/Rifles

Storage issues. They take up a lot of space relatively speaking.

They are unwieldy in close quarters.

They take both hands to operate, what are you going to open the door with, your teeth?

A dedicated self defense shotgun/rifle is a pretty specialized breed of cat. Mostly useless for general hunting.

There are overpenetration issues especially with rifles but even with shotguns. Even a charge of bird shot will sail right through dry wall.

Using either without shouldering it is a recipe for a miss and yes, at close range you can miss with a shotgun. If shouldered your periferial vision is mostly gone. There may be more than one bad guy in there.

Pistols

They are hard (relitively) to hit with.

Lazer sights/flash lights point at you too.

They are not as intimidating as long arms.(Racking a pump shotgun is a whole lot more attention getting than cocking a hammer or clicking a safety)

Without a whole lot of practice long range shots are pretty well out.

They are more dangerous than long arms in that the muzzle is a lot easier to point at something you don't want to shoot.

They are not as sure a fight stopper as a bigger gun.


As I said I won't make a recomendation. You pays your money and takes your choice weighing you own personal preferences and situation. The above are just things to think about in the thought process.


BCR

When we first moved into our neighborhood, our house was the only one in our cul-de-sac (sorry that's french). With me going on 6 month deployments, I proceeded as follows: first line of defense, a very irritating and aggressive Jack Russell Terrier. I mean nothing's to big for her to attack. In our room right behind the backboard is a Mossberg 500 12 ga, it's real short, with a magazine extension ( loaded with #6 shot, we have kids and thin walls), ghost ring rear sight, blaze orange front sight and a laser light. According to a lawman friend of ours nothing terrifies bad guys more than that light pointed at their chest. Next, she has a Glock sub-compact in in her nightstand ( or under the pillow) oaded with Glaser safety slugs. Lastly, we have an alarm. BTW, the typical response time for the law is about 15 minutes, so those of you (although probably not in this forum) that feel "safe" with an alarm system, a lot of mayhem can happen in 15 minutes! Oh yeah, down here in the south, we just shoot them no questions asked! jorge

If you decide you want a shotgun, I think you're on the right track with the turkey gun. Looks a lot better to a jury than a decked out "tactical" shotgun. Like it or not, thats something you have to factor in now days.

The Rem 870 home defence would be my vote. 18" barrel, and you can buy a short Turkey Barrel if you'd like. Or Just buy the 870 Turkey with a 21" barrel and put a cyl choke in it. Like someone else said, slide that action. Anybody that would break into your house will KNOW what that sound is.

This may seem a little off the wall but a while ago I bought a Reminton 870 youth as my dedicated home defense gun. Its short, easy to handle, should never fail, and I don't have to worry about blowing high velocity rounds thru walls. Plus I got it used for $150. I've taken the plug out and have high brass 6's close buy.

turkey gun, cyl choke, no. 9 trap or russian sxs double with same load; housebroken hound dog or other full-sized canine with a full voice.
i actually live in the 'hood. a full-voiced full-sized dog that is seen on a lead at least once a day by all n'hood kids is a MAJOR deterrant to any interest whatsoever in my home except as something to walk on by - on the other side of the street - and wave, smiling at the owner (me).
my bloodhound/redbone cross is a SUPERIOR watch dog - and a fantastic pet.

"cul-de-sac" jorge, is that that same thing as a circle? I like those big cressent rolls but I can't pronounce them so I order a biscuit instead. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We have a stainless .357 with a 4" barrel for a house gun. I have the first two chambers loaded with magsafes and the other four loaded with 125gr lead hollow point +p .38s. There are two Safariland speed loaders with 158gr lead hollow point Nyclad +p 38s with it. I keep the 870 in the gunsafe with #4 buck in the side saddle shell carrier. The first line of defense is momma's puppy. He's a 60lb Dalmatian.

Leveraction Marlin 357 with 38 wad cuters.

11 rounds in the tube, one in the pipe. Looks like John Wayne's gun, and gotta hurt on the bad side.

Surefire light in the side. Rather blind 'em than bleed 'em.

What's not to like?

I hear this often. It's all good and fine as long as the bad guy scares easily. If he's experienced, high, desperate, etc., you've just given away your position and intent to someone who's likely going to respond in kind.

Slides are to be racked after a shot, not before. All my defense guns sleep with one in the pipe, and dead men tell no tales.

RSY

A gunsmith I knew wired at least one light in each room to a single switch right by his bed - not including the bedroom. If he heard something suspicious he could reach up and illuminate every room in the house while leaving his bedroom dark, letting any nefarious characters know that he was awake and alerted. Also that he could see them but they had a hard time seeing him.

I think that philosophy is the best first line of defense - a barking dog whether it is physically imposing or not, yelling out "I'm calling the police", whatever. Unless it is one of those brazen home invasion robberies, most burglars do NOT want to be seen or discovered. When they are they skedaddle.

The home invasion stuff worries me as, based on what I read, they are most always armed and ready and come in with real assault style tactics, rushing through the home and rounding up everybody in there. You'd need an instant put-em-down gun for them if you even had a chance to get to it, and if you weren't the first one they went for then you'd have to deal with family members already corraled by them and possibly/probably being used as shields. And they wouldn't stand there menacingly while you took your best IDPA stance to engage them. They'd be emptying their sideways hi-cap 9's at you as fast as they could from 10 feet away while your wife/tweenage daughter/infant child is screaming hysterically in their grasp. "Now how tightly does that shot really pattern", or "now does this load shoot to exactly point of aim" is what you will be thinking in those microseconds where you can see the bad guy's right ear from behind your family members head.

Or - bad guy in the hall - you take aim - your four year old comes out of his/her bedroom door at theother end of the hall behind the bad guy - "Daddy, who's that man?" Now how tightly does that shotgun pattern? How much will this load penetrate?

Not trying to dissuade anyone, just painting some very possible scenarios. If you're serious about home defense, think about the worst possible case and plan for that, not the victory picture of you standing over the dead guy with smoking weapon in hand. I sure do like my guns and love to shoot and practice to shoot straight, but John Wayne tactics only work all the time in the movies.

I think like hunting, any gun is good if you can get to it and shoot quickly and accurately. But any gun is a last defense. I joked about a claymore, but I'd definitely plan on putting some metaphorical wire and claymores out there in depth - "layered defense" is what I think they call it (dog, exterior lights, locks and peepholes for those that don't understand "metaphorical" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) before relying on the heroic blaze of gunfire to save my bacon.

That said, a Kimber .45 with Federal 230 gr. Hydra-Shocks resides on the nightstand, there's a Model 586 Smith with 158 gr. Hydra-Shocks hidden somewhere I'm not telling in public, and as of a few days ago a Kel-Tec .32 rides in my pocket constantly, so I'm armed even while sitting on the john.

And mostly, I live a clean life and am kind to widows and orphans so if the bad guy wins St. Peter hopefully won't be too hard on me.

The first person that I've ever seen shot(fire-rescue call) was shot with a 12ga. and standard high brass(nice word) no.5s or 6s. The young man that shot him in self defense(home invasion) probably is still going through therapy as he was terrified and litterally a basket case with LE and F/R arrived. From what little bit that I saw, it was pretty horrific. Long story short, at "house distances" of around 30 feet or less, a shotgun loaded with standard 4,5,or 6 shot will do bad things to bad guys that can't be convinced to leave.

my h.d. gun is a very old cracked stock Stevens double 12 with barrels cut to just 18 1/2".

BEST LOGIC I have heard. I don't buy that rack and let them leave doctrine. If they come in I gotta replace the carpet. Cause somebody is gonna get hurt. Outside it is a different story.

BTW all my guns are ready to go unless in a safe. I got no kids, so it is common to walk into the den and find a revolver on the end table. One thing dad taught me was unloaded guns are expensive rocks. I have the 10-22 always loaded for coyotes ans such at late night, just now I gotta look why the dogs are barking a little more when I head out.

I agree with Boggy's line of thinking. While there's no question about a shotgun's ability to get the job done, it's the particulars that start to detract from its overall usefulness.

A shotgun leaning in the corner is just one more thing I�m going to forget to deal with every time I leave the house. I�ve been known to make three trips to retrieve one set of car keys. If I do happen to remember to stash the shotgun in the safe, I now have to remember to haul it out whenever I�m home. Considering I�m in and out of the house many times per day, this is going to wear me out. If I simply hide the shotgun in a closet or whatever it�s not going to be handy when I forgot where I put it. The more accessible the place where the shotgun is stashed, the better the chance a bad guy is going to find it first.

At the risk of feeling silly, walk around your house with any kind of shotgun (or longarm) and practice clearing room to room � don�t forget the insides of closets. You�ll have to carry one-handed to open doors and point the barrel off to the side for clearance. Also consider that any bad guy with an ounce of sense will make his move the instant the door handle moves. Clearing your house with a shotgun mounted to your shoulder cuts off a large part of your peripheral vision and shooting from low-ready nullifies any accuracy advantage over a handgun. I believe you�ll quickly discover that shotguns suck for the purpose.

The argument could be made that a guy shouldn�t be clearing his house � he should call the police. Well, if you�re 100% sure it�s a real bad guy, hunker down with the shotgun and call 911. But, the police won�t be there every time you come home, and they�ll get real tired of coming over your house to find the source of every little �bump in the night� � �Mr. JOG, it�s the danged cat again � will you pleeease stop calling us.�

It�s tempting to make the choice for a home defense firearm based on firepower, but tactical thinking plays a more important part. If a weapon could magically materialize when I really needed it I�d go with a M1A1 Abrams Tank and damn the carpeting. The rest of the time I�ll go with a weapon that tilts as many factors as possible to my side of the game � a reliable handgun I can hit with and of sufficient power. Make mine with tritium sights also.

Oh yeah, when I break into your house please announce your presence by racking the shotgun slide thus giving me a chance to seek a covered firing position � lasers and flashlights are great too. I�d appreciate it.

When the drool is runnin' down yer legs from the fright factor, there is nothing like a five or 8 shot Model 870 loaded with whatever. I like 00 Buck. It penetrates pretty good.

When the fine motor skills go out the window, a shotgun is really the only answer. And who cares about the choke size. You still have to hit the target. At close ranges - say 10-20 feet, they all shoot pretty tight. Turkey gun sounds good.

Hope you never have to use it. Yell at the guy that you have a gun and will use it and to leave. A warning might work.

In my opinion your best chance of survival in a home invasion is staying in one room (if possible) and letting them come to you. It's difficult at best for one person to successfully clear a house, especially a large one with multiple floors/stories. If you can get everyone in the same room, call 911, anounce to intruders you're armed and LE is coming, and it that if they come in that they're going to get shot. I know, I know, this is in a "perfect" world but I honestly believe this is the best approach for survival in this case. Notice I said survival and not prevention of stolen property. Different variables come into play like for one....kids. Nobody is going to leave their children in a bedroom by themselves if they know/suspect an intruder is in the house. In addition, those that live in rural areas may have a long wait for LE to arrive. In short your best bet is to have plan of action if this unfortunate event takes place in your house and decide what actions are best tailored to your house and location. What is reccomended or what works at my house may not work at yours. Good luck and hopefully you'll never find out!

High Brass,

The only way you'll know it's an actual home invasion is by going out and looking.

Here is a good solution for the "shotgun in the corner" problems:

http://www.gunvault.com/longgunvault.asp

RSY

JOG,

For 100% confirmation you are correct. I didn't mean to sound like a guru, just a firm believe is all.

Shootist,

"At close ranges - say 10-20 feet..."

Close range in a home invasion is contact distance, or the bad guy hanging off the back or your neck. Any shotgun's barrel is too long if the bad guy is standing on top of your shoes.

It could happen your way - I'd be a fool to argue that. By the same token it could happen my way too. In my view, a handgun remains an effective tool no matter what the home invasion scenario, whereas a shotgun/longarm can actually become a liability.

RSY,

I love it:



It appears the Jesus painting over the bed is gonna hafta come down...

FWIW:

I never fought with a gun and I never went to an LEO academy.

But, I have read about this issue extensively. The data (FBI and other sources) continues to confirm what Col. Cooper has been preaching for 3 decades:

1-A nice slide action shotgun with a Ghost RIng Sight is a good tactical weapon (and a pretty fair Turkey gun). Shorter is better. Most shotgun fights are one shot affairs, two shots cover almost all of the remaining fights.

2-Side Saddles, folding stocks, and extension tubes are unnecessary. A good butt cuff with (for example) two slugs in the front loops and 2 #00 Buckshot rounds in back loops should be fine. The butt cuff allows you to change loads as the facts change.

Cooper suggests that you keep the shotgun with the action open, and a single round of #6s in the magazine. When trouble arises, slam the action shut and you have a round it the chamber. You can load from the butt cuff to address what you find.

3-Handguns are better defense because they are on your person (you wear it, you don't carry it). You may not have time to "go get" the shotgun.

4-Avoiding trouble is best. Dogs, exterior lights, and other protective devises are very useful. Cooper actually suggests a solid core door separating the sleeping quarters from the rest of the house. The idea being that once a bad guy is inside, he has to break in to the sleeping area. This allows the homeowner a defensible position inside the house.

Good Luck,

BMT

As far as kids and firearms, I pity the fool who threatens my kids, they know how to use the guns in this house, and we talk about the when and why of it too.

As for shotguns, if you use a tight patterning turkey gun, you lose the advantage that shotguns are supposed to have for defense, a wide pattern.

I do like the idea of being able to light the rest of the house from my darkened room.

As for a layered defense, my neighbors are armed too.

High Brass,

I'm not a guru either - far from it. I have three older kids (19-22) that come and go at all hours, and it wasn't that long ago I was running wannabe boyfriends out of the yard at 3AM. I told my youngest daughter I might shoot one to set an example <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I have to check out anything suspicious and be ready to shoot a bad guy, say "hello" to my son, or run off a Romeo all at the same time. A handgun under my shirt is the starting point for all three.

I believe 'shotgun tactics' are based on the best possible scenario - getting the drop on the bad guy, that you'll spot him across the room before he spots you. I think it's a safer bet to imagine the worst possible scenario - the bad guy will come flyin' out from behind the La-Z-Boy, or from out of the closet while my hand is on the doorknob.

Then again, it could just be the dog...

JOG:

Looks like Jesus may get to stay, after all. I can't reach the company by phone and all the retailers in my area seem to have stopped carrying them. They may be down for the count. Too bad, they make nice product.

That's one problem with the internet: obsolete sites can live on unattended for a long time, until someone remembers to turn them off.

RSY

BMT,

Col. Cooper fails to mention how I'll KNOW there's a bad guy in my house. I've cleared my house countless times after returning at night, after being away a few days, or at night when something goes "bump". I haven't found a bad guy yet, but I've found kids, dogs, my wife, and even a bat one time. About a month ago I had a new meter reader wandering around outside (it gets dark here about 4PM).

All these 'threats' need to be sorted out - doing so over the muzzle of a shotgun is a baaad idea.

Not to mention the fact that a "loaded" pump gun with the slide back has a loose round just rolling around in the receiver, ready to be accidentally dumped out the ejection port when you excitedly (or groggily) pick up the gun. No thanks.

The good Colonel has provided us with some pearls over the years. But, that ain't one of 'em.

RSY

RSY,

I'll cut the Col. a lot of slack - he's lived in places where the odds are different. The trick for most of us is still paying attention after 1,000 false alarms. If I get killed in a home invasion it will be armed with a broom at the trash can - the one time it wasn't a raccoon.

RSY, as a full time LEO I have entered several houses with a pump shotgun. It was usually my old 20" 870 w/rifle sights. The shotgun was in the "Patrol Ready" mode-safety off, empty chamber, not cocked.

I know how people respond to the sound of a racked slide. The shotgun is probably our most intimidating weapon.

4x4:

I wasn't trying to impugn you personally. I do appreciate your LEO service and experience (Question: your profile lists your occupation as "Military." MP, maybe?).

I understand your experiences with the effect that "the sound" can have on people and the intimidation of said weapon. But, on this one, I will stick to my point. I also will pray that you continue to encounter people that are able to be intimidated by such. As an LEO with experience, I'm sure you know that there are those out there who will not be swayed by a simple aural and/or visual assault.

All the best,
RSY

JOG,

I understand completely and don't dispute what you've said, far from it. My firearm training involving shooting people came from the Marines, which is totally different than from home defense. I favor long guns for most applications and if I knew 100% hands down it was going to hit the fan I'd rather have a long gun most times. However, the convenience of a handgun is unparalleled so that's what I keep handy. I keep a loaded handgun(sometimes two) and have kept a loaded shotgun(didn't have a handgun at the time). I have went through a few "drills" clearing my house with both a shotgun and a handgun and I'll admit to the handgun being easier. The shotgun would be my choice for staying in one spot and holding a defensive position in my house. Everything would definately be in shotgun range! The handgun offers more versatility to use a flashlight, open doors, etc. I do stand by my statement of staying in one spot though whenever practical/possile no matter what gun you have. I have several handguns to choose from but most often the loaded one in question is a Ruger P89D 9MM with Trijicon night sights and pre-ban 15 round mags that belonged to my fiance's father(he's passed away). Both her and I can shoot it with great accuracy and I like the night sights. She has a Kel Tec 9MM that fits her hands good but the heavy double action trigger makes it somewhat tough on her. When we had a night stand on either side of the bed, she had one of the 9MMs and I had my Sig P220 45acp next to me in a "his and hers" format. Either side of the bed had a gun and either one would do the trick.

Savage side by side .. 12ga with 3" mag loaded with BB's

fastest second shot going .. 5 more on a butt cuff ... short
enough to be a riot baton if I run out of ammo .. and will
work great on most home invaders .. (2 to 3 soft targets)

Talon

Agree with High Brass about staying put. Let them come to your defensible position. By the way, dogs ARE good, but they are also not foolproof. I used to have a german shepherd male that hated people. I think he even hated me. People would walk around a complete block to miss going by my place, and my dog was never free. But dogs can't shoot back.

Problem with everyone in the same room is, that a home invasion takes so little time that unless you all sleep in the same room, it ain't happening fast enough to get you together. Claymores may be more effective, come to think of it.

I have no doubts that the shotgun is the best fighting tool, but only if it is more likely to be at hand when needed. In a home defense situation staying put is far more tactically sound than trying to clear the house alone. It ties into the whole actor vs reactor advantage. Staying put may not always be an option though. 4X4, if someone trained you to do your houseclearing with an unloaded (no round in chamber) shotgun that person taught you some horrible tactics. Dump those tactics quickly. They can get you or a partner killed.

I mis-typed. It made a lot more sense when I read it. I maybe should'a tried it first.

THe round is in the magazine tube, I guess you have the action close and empty.

One pump, you are good to go. If you move outside, and have to stop a truck, put a slug in and work the action again.

I will have to pull that book off the shelf and get it right.

BMT

Gotcha. That makes a little more sense, though not necessarily advisable.

RSY

I am more in the defensive role here. If it appears someone has beat me home I aint going in. Maybe keep an eye on the doors for someone exiting. Kick back with the pistol and let the fuzz sort it out. Way to many places to hide and weapons to use to sneak in and catch them.

Main thing is I am home and somebody is trying to get in while I nap or do whatever. Shotgun is more of what I have in mind of holding ground, or sneaking out the back door when mom calls again that someone is in the backyard. If they are headed in on her and my grandmother, well they have had a bad day. And if they make it out leaking I might persuade them to stay till the medics and cops get there.

Idea about the turkey gun is not the 18" cylinder bore gun everybody has, I can stuff in and IC or Mod choke tube and have a little more control over where the pattern goes as distance increases. Ex target shooter here and I run a shotgun as well as it can be, just not into opening doors type stuff. Moving targets have a bad day.

Nowhere pro with the snubbie, I can defend myself. Not going to hit paper plates at more than 15 to 20 yards. At least quickly.

Rifle I am more into bench shooting. Probably better than the average beer drinking guy with a Rem 742, but not a great shot by any means. Crows at 250 or so are a challenge. Field positions I run about 50%.

That gives you a little idea on skill. The 870 trukey express seems to be on the menue. Not the 24" or longer barrel, got tubes, and easy to modify for other purposes.

Wow I never realized such a response. Maybe Rick needs a shotgun section, or defensive area for such yacking (grin)

Fine...be that way. Sigh... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The 870 is a workhorse, but you also might consider the Benelli Nova - lots of options and a lots of bang for the buck.

Well, this is an interesting discussion and, unfortunately, one that is all too important in contemporary North America. I have studied extensively on this topic, have been shot at, have apprehended a .45 packing moron while on duty as an unarmed security person and have dealt with various breakins, including using a handgun to chase a doper out of my house, one New Years Eve.

I notice that most of the posters here have some damned good ideas and, after owing and using many guns, here is what I now use. The choices I make are based on both the small amount of combat training I have had and a lot of experience in tense situations, both with Grizzlies during my forestry employment and felons during my security work.

My first line of defense is two brothers, Axel and Woden, who are 120 lbs. and 150 lbs. respectively, they are very high quality, purebred male Rottweilers who adore my wife and I and show controlled aggression to anyone who approachs our chainlink fence....they mean business, too!

In the house, I have my Ruger GP-100, 4", STS with two additional speedloaders full of Federal softpoint 158 gr. ammo. Hollowpoints are illegal here and I do not want to face a liberal Judge after shooting a bad guy with illegal ammo.

I can back this up with my Coyote gun, an early Marlin 1894cs in .357 with a "ghost ring" and it uses the same load. I also have a minty 336 in .44 Mag. and a Redhawk 5.5" STS .44 which I would prefer in rural areas. I no longer use an 870 as it is awkward and not as reliable as the guns I now use, I carried them for years in Forestry, but, I never really trusted the combo of 870-Foster slugs which was all we could get.

I have a Glock 17 and a Mini-14 factory, stainless folder, but, the "military" appearance of these is a disadvantage in contemporary Canadian society, so, I use the guns which will allow me to appear to a court as exactly what I am, a retired guy who never bothers anyone, but, can and will defend himself, his home and wife, no matter what.

We have had several local breakins and thefts of guns from my nextdoor neighbours, I have talked with the responding VPD officers and politely informed them that, if a bad guy comes into my house, I will shoot him unless he leaves at my initial command, as the one dickhead did. I have also politely spoken to the local doper-dealer-pimp-scum and informed them that if they come even close to my home, the results will be really nasty; they now walk across to the other side of the street if they see me strolling down the road and they NEVER come close to my house. Rottweilers, while expensive and a lot of work to raise and train, are the BOMB DOG and keep the scum away.

I think that you should never let anyone know what guns you may or may not have ready to rock, but, letting local vermin see you're ready, willing and able to deal with their invasion of your space is a good idea, IMHO. Personally, I hope that I never have to shoot anyone, BUT, if I have to, I will and have the guns and skills to do it. If, we got rid of ALL drugs, this would hardly ever be a problem!

I divide home invaders into 2 classes, those who come in thinking no one is home, and those who come in knowing someone is home. Although I think a short barrel 12 guage would be the ultimate for the latter category, if everyone is together and as far as possible from the door waiting on the bad guy to come through, that's just not too realistic most of the time. And I sure don't want to give my position away to someone like that by racking the slide of my shotgun!

The more likely scenario, as has been already pointed out, is the bump in the night that must be investigated so as to avoid frequent false alarm calls to the police. For that, I don't want a shotgun. I remember Massad Ayoob writing about the time he (as a LEO) was "volunteered" to go first into a dark basement after a possible bad guy because he had the shotgun! He vividly described how terrifying it was and how he hoped that one, or more, of the bad guys didn't grab the end of the barrel while manuvering around down there in an unfamiliar place. (This was a long time ago with archaic police search tactics.) Turned out to be a false alarm.

I picked up another tip from G. Gordon Liddy. Keep enough loaded guns in discreet locations throughout the house that the bad guy can't get between you and your gun. Just a thought for those of us who don't wear a gun around inside the house. A hollow book, middle of a stack of laundry towels, etc.

I came home from work, one day about 6years ago and notice the chain on my gate wasn't locked the way I had left it.
This put me on the defensive "right now" I have a handgun license and had my 3913 with me.
When I got up to the house (.5 mile of driveway) my dogs were in the kennel and barking up a storm!
My back door was hanging open and when I walked up, I could see through the house, that the front door was also wide open.
I didn't know if the perps were still in the house, so I went through, room by room and cleared the whole house.
THEN called the police...Was glad NO ONE was in the house.

This is a very gut-wretching feeling. The more doors I kicked open, the madder I got.
I coulda very easily SHOT any PERP in my house!
My house was ransacked, even the beds were torn apart.
Lost most of my rifle collection. Had my handguns in a safe, now have a heavy rifle safe.
I was very glad to have a handgun along that day, and still have the 3913, but my main carry gun now is a Kimber Tactical .45
Would I have felt as good clearing my house with a shotgun?...NO! in this instance it is just to easy to grab.
To this day, I have a handgun on me at all times, even as I'm typing, and I'm ready! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Virgil B.

Just going from the knowledge of the instructor from my conceled carry classes, inside your house, the confrontation normally happens within three feet, takes three seconds & requires three shots... For that I will take a handgun every time.

I admit the sound of a shotgun being racked is a horrible sound to the intruder, it also lets him/her/them, know your location. Kind of works both ways, either scare the hell outta' them or....

I have big dogs & small dogs, big guns & small ones. Hopefully I will never need both.

Pat

Most figures of this nature come from the FBI studies of "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted."

Some knowledgeable trainers have suggested that it's better to model your behavior on gunfights where the officers were not killed.

To pursue that, Police Marksman magazine did a study several years ago gathering data from shootouts where the officers won. Not surprisingly, the distances were longer and more shots were fired.

The moral of the story is to keep your distance from dangerous people. If that doesn't end the story, have better marksmanship skills.

John

For my wife and I;
Multiple 4" .38spl. revolvers, hidden for easy access.
Load? +P #8 shot
Goes bang EVERYTIME.
I did some extensive testing. This load is very effective at,"in-house" ranges.
It allows a margin of error in aiming under stress.
I was also impressed by the penetration at 20 feet or less.
I even tested it against Z 87 safety glasses, penetrated every lens at 15-20'.

After 30 years as a LEO, I have cleared more houses than I care to remember, not to mention warehouses, office buildings etc on night shift. Whether you have a shotgun or a pistol, you have to make sure not to let the weapon enter the room and put it up for grabs.

The fellow that said he cleared houses with a shotgun in Patrol Ready was certainly not ready for clearing the house. I always had one in the chamber, the mag topped up, cocked with the safety on, finger along the receiver, butt on top of the shoulder, and the muzzle slightly down. Very good form for instinctive shooting.

From a police officer standpoint, the shotgun is not always the best go to gun, because after the need for a weapon is gone, you cannot eat a shotgun, and you don't want to let the bad guy hold it for you. A pistol has a holster to secure it after the fun is over.

And untrained civilians clearing a house alone is just asking to get killed. The police NEVER clear a house where there is a good posibility it is occupied until backup shows up. Especially a house you know contains an arsenal of weapons and ammo. Call in the guys with the soft body armour and the training.

If there is someone in your house, leave him in there until help arrives. If you disturb him, he may react violently. (That is, if you are not in the house when he gets there.)

Were I to use a handgun for clearing a building, and I have scores of times, it is loaded, no safety, finger along the receiver, waiting for the 10 pound triggerpull to bring it into play. PS I loved my P229 Sig in 40 S&W.

Home invasions are something else. You do what you have to to survive. I live in a slightly remote area, and I can only remember one home invasion here in 25 years. It was Asian Gang related.

Where I live, in "east" Vancouver, B.C., armed home invasions happen a couple of times per week and police response is not always very rapid. While most of these crimes are Asian gang-drug rips, there have been quite a few fatal invasions of older homes with older tenants, like my wife and I. Most of these people are unarmed and helpless, due to the brainwashing of the Canadian governments of the past several decades that the police can/will protect them.

I do not believe in waiting for help that may arrive too late, so, my attitude is to be pro-active and capable of defending myself and my family. Fortunately, the type of dogs I favour as pets make it most unlikely that I will ever have to use a gun, but, it is better to be ready and self-reliant than to depend on "gov't." or anyone else.

I would NOT enter a house or room with an unloaded gun, just as I kept my Bear guns "hot" when I was running treeplanting crews in Bear country. This is also why I prefer simple DA revolvers, lever guns and bolt guns as I feel more capable with them.......this is a major part of one's abilities, IMHO.

The selection of a HD weapon should be tempered by what a person is comfortable and experienced with. For when you have to use it for REAL, fumbling is not an option.

My LE and military experience with a handgun gives me confidence with it and I like the ability to holster my protection in case I need both hands for doing other things.

I just put together such a set up using a Kimber .45, with CT laser grips and a Sure Fire light. A paddle holster lets the rig become attached to me with ease and the entire set up fits in a Personakey safe under the bed.

The laser is something I was slow to warm up to but after extensive use I have decided it is another tool that can work. Same goes for the light.

The only home pretection I have had to participate in so far involved invaders with 4 legs. Mean dogs, varmints and such in the yard. In those cases you will really appreciate the light.

Hopefully the only thing you will need from a HD gun is the peace of mind that comes with it but I think the only RIGHT answer in practice.

Keep your cell phone in the bedroom with you. Phone lines are easily found and cut or if like mine, unplugged outside my house. You can't easily stop a cell phone transmission.

My children are all over 18 and none live with me.

IMHO High Brass has a good point about not searching through the house unless you have to.

I use the same gun (870 youth model,my sons) and feel that the 20 Ga. will perform as well as anything else. One of my buddies used to say "The pistol is only there to get me to the shotgun". I guess he had it all figured out!

Ditto on the cell phone.

I have a Glock 27 w/ night sights for "personal defense" but think that in reality, especially with kids in the house, a can of pepper spray and a baton would be a very bad thing for most perps and infinitely better than an unsecured gun.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Everybody has a scenario to deal with unique to their residence, and prejudice regarding firearms. I'm no different. As I trapse down life's path my scenarios change, or at least my expectations of what may occur change. My present home cannot be entered forcefully with stealth, the reasons will remain my own. I like shotguns and birdshot here, the ranges are close and I'm not disposed toward theatrics. If someone should come to visit while I'm home they get to visit the coroner's office, all in accordance with state law. If they are here when I arrive I shall hold back and call the law, and wait. Whether true or not, I must assume that they are armed once inside the house, I'll leave it up to the responding officers to decide if they are dangerous. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The best home defence gun is the one you can grab in a hurry! Remember where it is and how to use it, period.

The correct thing to do is take your shotgun with you when you leave the house, unload it and stick it in your car (with ammo nearby). When you return take it out, load it and carry it into your house with you.

You should use your dogs to help clear your house. They should be able to indicate the presense of intruders and where they are hiding.

You also should have an alarm that will let you know if someone broke into your house before you enter.

I like my bennelli semiauto M1 Super 90 with 18" choked barrel and with surefire M4 mounted under the mag tube. You listen for the bad guys and blast them with the light before taking them out with the shotgun. This helps to prevent accidently shooting your children or wife.

Conrad

I thought I would share an experience. It was during the middle of the week and I woke up in the middle of the night. I started puttering around the house getting things done and hoping to get sleepy later.
I heard someone trying keys in my front door, then they would put their weight against the door. This went on again and again. It set my adrenalin going because they knew I was home with my truck in the driveway and lights on in the house.

So I got my pistol and when I turned the lights off, they left. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I guess they changed their mind or didn't want to come into a dark house with an alert person waiting for them.

Conrad,

Hmmm�I have to take a handgun AND a shotgun? Man, I�m going to have to start setting the alarm earlier to prep all this stuff�

When I return to the house, I�m thinkin� that reloading the shotgun in the driveway every afternoon might fire-up the neighbors. I suppose I could hope there are no bad guys already in the garage and reload there. The �shotgun in the car� tactic also leaves me a little short when I walk the dog. I suppose I could tie him to the trailer hitch�

Alarms are good, but they don�t prevent the bad guy from waiting for me outside and making me disarm it. The shotgun is a good solution for him, if he�s there, but the rest of the time I�d have to carry the newspaper and mail in my teeth�with a loaded shotgun�with the neighbors wondering what the heck is JOG up to now?

Firearm mounted lights can be good, except they require you to sweep a multitude of non-targets with the muzzle � possibly including my wife and kids. That ain�t happenin�. I guess I'll stick with a handgun.

Sorry to be a smartazz, Conrad � I couldn�t help it� <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I give up.

I am going to move to Faluja, convert to Islam, and enroll at a terrorist school.

When I graduate, I will return to the US with one of those Bomb Vests.

This will be the ultimate personal defense tool. I will live in it 24/7.

If some thug tries to nail me, I will trip the switch and take him out. Its the pefect solution. I will never be afraid to hitch-hike in East L.A. again. . . . . . . .

BMT

Yeah, but then there's those pesky Marine Corps snipers to worry about.

No matter where ya go, there ya are <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

On a more serious note . . . . . .

I still firmly believe that the best "safety" is between your ears.

I also beleive that your best tol in personal defense is visibility, attitude, and awareness.

Guns are great, and I will firmly stand beside the CCW guys who wish to carry, but if you need to draw a weapon, it means that other defenses have failed.

Thus, I keep the house visible from the street (no screens of foliage, etc.). I also have an outdoor light so we can see into the garage when coming in at night. A good set of locks on the doors and windows helps. And generally, I try to perpare the house as LEOs advise.

My favorite tip is "Keep the garage door closed." A few LEO buddies have informed me that PERPs will cruise neighborhoods on a Saturday and check out contents of the open garages. On a good sunny day, 1 in 3 garage doors are open as the homeowners mow lawns, wash cars, etc.

I once drove over the a friend's house and noticed his neighbor has 3 gun safes in the garage whcih were visible from the street. Every car that came by for 3 hours got a look at these.

I thought the neighbor should have been more discreet in that case.

I know that some of us live in the woods and no neighbors can see their home (which is great for quiet living). Those folks will have additional security challenges.

Anyway, my point is that buying a gun is the LAST item on a home security checklist. Making the home un-inviting to Perps is the FIRST item on my checklist.

Just my 2 cents,

BMT

Well, now that we've run the gamut of techniques and equipment...

I trained the dog how to operate the clacker on the claymore with this mouth and to recognize "FRONT TOWARD ENEMY" so he doesn't blow his cute widdle snout off.

Eyes that see in the dark, ears that can hear a mouse fart a block away, sharp teeth and high explosives.

Best of both worlds.

I'll Take It. PM sent <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hear ya, Jim, but I can top that for home defense�

Mean as a snake, known to strike terror into the hearts of ALL mortal men, as cold as death, a financial black hole�

My wife lives here too.

Gents: I have read all this with great interest, but have yet to see the two most important self-defense components. This wisdom comes from many, many conversations with law officers of all types, numerous lawyers, and at least one judge.

1. A criminal lawyer who knows the D.A. and all the judges. When you blow someone away, you will need him and you will not have time to shop.
2. Roughly $60,000 to spend on legal fees.

When your primers blow you are finally getting serious.