A question for those with first-hand knowledge and experience: Who would you trust to build a Mauser (or other) rifle that absolutely must work flawlessly in all circumstances, such as a dangerous game stopping rifle?

Duane Wiebe and Ralf Martini are among the best, plenty of other great names as well.

Lee24 and Swampman700......?

Heilman, Echols, Simillion, Penrod, Bolliger, Smithson and the master, Jerry Fisher

Either do it perfectly or don't do it at all

I will add Roger Biesen to the list, and he does the whole enchilada (metal and wood).

Damn ... I'm still looking for photos of Lee24's Winchester Model 70 375H&H marked "Made in SC". So he's now building Mausers too?

[quote=RDFinn]Lee24 and Swampman700......? [/quote

Laffin! RD is so twisted...

Speaking of twisted, Lee24 invented rifling too.

So when he drops a deuce, it flies nose first.

Inasmuch as both are the (bastard) great-great-great grandsons of Paul Mauser, ya may well be correct? Or was it John Browning, fergit?

After the first 40 tons of BS, hard to keep track of their lineage.

I see you've got high standards......

That TC1 dude here on the 'fire has built some beautiful Mausers, and posted a few pics of them here, they are stunning.

Thinkin' his name is Terry, you may shoot him a PM, wait could be a bit shorter too.

Gunner

And the ultimate sniper rifle thread.....in his spare time no less....

I'll heartily second this, Roger built an exquisite 7x57 for me on a Mauser that would make even Peter Paul himself jealous.

Do you want a working rifle, or a show piece that works? There are many quality Gunsmiths who can build you a functional, dependable, "bet your life on it" rifle. There's not so many who can build that rifle, and then make the wood look like it grew around the metal.

Define what you want, right down to the last ounce, then seek out someone who can build it. I could have that Mauser, (or a FN 98, pre-64' Mod 70 or new Model 70) in a McMillan stock and be as happy as a pig in a poke. Others wouldn't be satisfied unless it was nestled in wood.

What do you want?

If money is no object, and this project sounds like that, and you truly want the very, very, very finest ... David Miller & Company.

Blessings,

Steve

Hhmmmm, there are those who might disagree and our late and lamented friend, AD, comes to mind. He was strongly of the opinion that a certain "D'Arcy" was THE man, when the "finest" was the object.

A few months ago, I handled a Ralf Martini 9.3x64B built on a 1908 action, re-worked and hardened and this rifle belongs to a former guide in the Yukon and local hunter whom I have been acquainted with for about 15 years. It is a gorgeous piece and has been HUNTED, including killing a Polar Bear in Canada's northern territories some time ago. I would consider it to fit the criteria here.

I am with "JBabcock" on this and I have quite a number of thoroughly tested rifles that fit the specs of a "North American DGR" very well. My original,factory-chambered 9,3x62 Brno-ZG-47 re-worked at Martini's shop and in a Micky Edge stock with a Zeiss Conquest 4x in Talley QDs is perhaps my favourite and is light enough for BC mountain backpack hunting.

I think that the definition of ...the very, very, very finest... here is somewhat subjective and I would choose my original Oberndorf Type B in 9.3 as a working NA DGR over almost all of the "name" custom American rifles I have seen.....it works just as it was intended to in 1905 and shoots far better than my aged eyes can.

Photos, man, PHOTOS! Post'em here!

John

I would throw Roger Green, Ed LaPour and Jim Dubell on the list.

Doesn't matter. They are so backlogged that they have a two year waiting list.

I am referring to perfection in functionality. The magazine box matches the cartridge perfectly. The feed rails make the rifle easy to load but never ever let rounds spew out the top. Rounds feed and chamber and eject flawlessly and effortlessly with no hesitations where the heel of the hand must pop the bolt to get it past a certain point, and no possibility of a doublefeed. I'm talking about a rifle built and designed around the cartridge for flawlwss function with no malfunctions and no excuses, not a cast off that some bubba tweeks until it works alright half the time. I'm talking metalwork here.

AFTER, and only after, the functioning is absolutely perfect, then we can make it pretty with blueing and fine walnut.

One more thing: When opening the bolt after firing, and cocking the striker, it should be easy to do so with the rifle at the shoulder - almost hard to detect that the striker is being cammed rearward against spring presure. I know this is possible. I have seen it and felt it.

Many rifles exhibit one good trait or another. One has good sights, another smooth cocking, another decent feeding, and another shoots sub-MOA. I want to know who DOES IT ALL.

So I hear say (in print) that some African PHs believe the very best rifles are those from the big name London makers - H&H, Rigby, and maybe some others. Those rifles sell for tens, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's fine if one has the money, but are they really worth such ridiculous prices? Do they really function flawlessly? Are they really perfect? I might never know. Some of those rifles exceed my annual salary.

BR: What I know of these things is piddling,but I think I know what you mean...

I owned a 300 Win Mag made on a 1909 Argentine Mauser with the metal done by Tom Burgess,stock by Maurice Ottmar.The first time I stuffed three down and flopped prone at 300 yards with the rifle,I fired the first shot,and it cycled so effortlessly(like a pre 64 M70 in 300H&H),that I thought..."Damn it,the bolt didn't feed the second round

I opened the bolt and there was the next cartridge,peeking outta the chamber... I never felt the slightest resistance when I worked the action.

Tom Burgess is unfortunately dead, but I have seen similar absolutely reliable slick feeding from Mauser 98's and M70's.

If you are looking for a 375H&H that functions flawlesly, every time,buy a pre 64 M70 in 375H&H,and there is a 98% chance you won't have to touch a single thing.

I owned a transition period Model 70 that performed this way. Needed nothing. In a moment of complete and total insanity I sold it...

JBabcock: I have sold them, too....nuts...but I still have one!

300H&H's will do the same things.In truth, mostly all of them will function perfectly with few exceptions....because they were hand coddled,and not allowed to leave the factory unless they "worked".Out of a great many pre 64 M70's I have never had one that required attention to make it work perfectly.

This is something I cannot say about M70's made after 1964;many Classics are particularly in need of hands on tweaking, but can be made into very fine rifles.It takes some work.

All things considered, have you thought of just going with a double?
In the long run, that could solve all issues. I`m thinking short range, thick cover stuff, wounded bad-assed something or the other. Your probably gonna get max, two aimed shots off anyhow. Why worry about working a bolt, double feed, jam etc. The gun is going to point like your expensive double shotgun, cause that`s how your going to react. And it`s going to WORK.

Unless you just like bolt guns. And that`s not a slam. All I shoot are bolts, taking the Match AR out. I beleive I would go the double direction if after DG.

I have a .30-06 that I picked up off a used gun rack some years back. A four digit FN crested commercial action with a gracefully contoured rust blued and lapped 24" barrel. The stock is English, oil finished, not real fancy, but the metal and the Neidner steel butt plate appears to have grown in place. The floor plate seems to be from a Browning Safari. That is the only thing that I would change on this rifle if I were ordering custom. A nice inside the trigger guard release would be nice. The bench mark, just behind the silver grip cap, is The letter "H" within a diamond. The rifle has never had a malfunction of any kind. It has to be stock design, because Superperformance 180s at 2900 (advertised) are not uncomfortable, even in shirt sleeves. I think I know what you want, I just cant help on where to get it.

Some of the Masters mentioned go to overkill on appearance. A good commercial Mauser in the desired factory caliber is already close to perfection. The cocking, trigger, and floor plates can sometimes use a bit of help. Good luck, jack

Few years back while hunting with my brother in Nome he took me over to a friend's house. His buddy pulled out a pre 64' Super Grade in 300 H and a H. I almost soiled myself It was almost in "new in box" condition. If I'd a had the cash, I would have brought it home so we could spend quiet time together....

Some years ago, a guy wanted to trade me one of these for one of my very original .338WM Alaskans.....not a chance,said I.

The H&Hs are nice, have had four of the .300s and four of the .375s and have a near mint pair so chambered in Rimrock handles, but, no P-64-70 equals the early issue .338WM Alaskans to me.

My "spare" pair, almost 100% and hardly fired,will put three 250-NPs at 2800 chrono'd into .6" at 100M, quite consistently and they just have this "cool" factor that very few other rifles have.

Big Redhead,

For a pure-functioning Mauser with a synthetic stock, the late Dave Gentry was as good as anyone. He not only could make 98 actions work perfectly, but built Mauser actions from the ground up--including lefties. His hand-made actions often went to British makers, but "Gentry" didn't appear anywhere on the action when the rifles were done!

Dave died a few years ago and his son Dennis is now running the shop. I haven't had any experience with his work, but maybe somebody else has.

John,

I still cannot believe Dave is gone. Dang, I miss him.

Steve

Well if we are going to "allow" those that can't or don't any more I would add Jim Wisner as his build on my Swede 7x57 is right in all aspects. Like glass in every motion. Unfortunately he has retired from the rifle building but still makes darn fine parts.

Yes they do. I have a Model 70 Classic, (338 WM) they has served me well for about 10-12 years now, but it sure doesn't feel like one of those pre-64's.

If I was in the market for a rifle like the OP wants, I would have to consider the pre 64 in 375 H and a H. It is really hard to improve upon them. I know many do, and make them prettier! But, not sure they are "better."

OUCH!

Kutenay likes them,too....maybe not like his BRNO's....but he likes them.

I am shooting one of mine this afternoon if I can get the 400 yard range,that is.

One common failing I see in many, if not most, production rifles is that the top cartridge in the magazine just barely extends above the bottom edge of the boltface. There is very little engagement there to push the round forward into the chamber. In conjunction with that, when the top round in the mag begins its forward travel, and the bullet engages the feed ramp, the rear of the case tilts downward, sometimes enough that the bolt rides over the partially chambered round causing a terrible jam. If the operator is working the bolt briskly, the catridge gets ruined because the boltface digs into the body of the case making a deep gouge. I can handle one ruined cartridge but its a really bad thing to have happen if a 5 ton pachyderm is bearing down on you intent on making you part of the soil.

Another common failing with push feed rifles is when the cartridge starts its journey toward the chamber and suddenly pops up out of the magazine too hard and high and the bolt jams. The cartridge rim sits on top of the plunger ejector and the bolt will not close. One might say all you need to do is withdraw the bolt slightly allowing the round to drop into position to be chambered, but that is a total crock! Too often when I try this I withdraw the bolt a little too far rearward and it picks up the next round in the magazine resulting in a doublefeed. I don't want to turn this into another PF vs. CRF pissing match because my mind is already firmly made up about that. There is no way in he|| I would take a PF after dangerous game! I have seen this happen with Rems and pre-MkII Rugers. And yes, pre-MkII Rugers ARE PUSH FEED! Don't be fooled by that Mauser-looking extractor. And they are NOT Mark 1s either! A Ruger Mark 1 is a 22LR semiauto pistol, not a rifle.

In the end, I can totally see why some folks prefer double guns for fighting dangerous game. It makes total sense. And one can purchase several decent double rifles for the price of a singl H&H or Rigby bolt gun with money left for ammo.

The original question related to Mauser's. The pre-64 M 70's were pretty close to factory customs. They required a lot of hand fitting of parts. If you doubt me, try switching parts between actions. They got a lot of attention at the factory for functioning.

Now back to Mausers. It is quite easy to make them feed 30-06 and 7x57 based rounds because that is what they were designed to to. Actually the military mausers, which can be some of the finest ever made, were designed to feed 7x57 and 8mm Mauser. It is good fortune that they work with 30-06 type rounds.

Most dangerous game hunter think in terms of belt magnums or 404 or even larger cases. Those conversions require modification of the magazine box, follower, action rails, and on and on. True your half cousin may have one that works pretty well most of the time but that if much different than one the works perfectly 100% of the time.

I did not mention David Miller cause he now builds almost all of his rifles on M70 Classic actions. I have not seen a recent rifle on anything else.

I know of one very ornate 458 Win that was auctioned for mega bucks that would not feed.

The Granite Mountain Magnum actions, in fact all their actions, require a lot of hand work to make them function perfectly. Joe Smithson has mastered making them into fine complete rifles.

I know of a Hartmann & Weiss magnum action that was built into a 505 that taxed the abilities of one of the very best. He made it work perfectly but it was not a "turn key" project.

However when done by the best, there is nothing better.

Big R,
I had a push feed Ruger bolt that would do what you describe, the pop up and catch on the plunger. I gave it to someone who shot groups from a bench. Junk as a hunting rifle.

The issue of the top ctg not rising enough to catch on the retracted bolt is also a bigger problem than most notice. I think is has to do with the group shooting preoccupation.

The Mauser solid box magazine is a worderful thing but expensive.

I had a Rem M7SS in 260 Rem that shot itty bitty groups and killed deer most sincerely dead. Problem was getting a round in the chamber. That thing just refused to feed. I fooled with it a lot and never did get it working right. Too bad. I always wanted one of that particular rifle, sort-of like a Kimber 84M
Montana for a third of the price, and it was sweet in the hands, as good a shooter as I could ever want, but the feeding issues rendered it useless. It went down the road.

Now I have the FN Mauser with Douglas barrel assembled by Flaig's in '55. It took some fiddling to make it work right (not a feeding issue) and find a load it wanted to extract reliably, but now its giving my Rugers a run for their money for top honors in my safe. It puts 175gr Hornadys within a half-inch of where I have the crosshairs - at 200 yards. Coincidentally, all the Ruger rifles in my possession except one are chambered in 7x57. I think I like that cartridge.

I had a .375 Ruger African for a while, and it fed as slickly and reliably as any custom Mauser or pre-'64 Winchester I've ever owned. Dunno if that's true of all of them, but I could NOT get that one to jam, no matter how fast or slow the action was worked, the type of bullet, or whatever. Maybe you could ask around and see if other .375 owners have had similar results.

The one problem with the African model is that the walnut stock's bedding often needs to be reinforced.

The Ruger African I had functioned very well,as far as I could tell.I saw no issues.

Just got back from picking up my Ruger 416 Rigby. COOL! COOL! COOL! It goes BOOM! with a cool fireball compliments of XMP5744. 400gr Hornady at 1500 fps is SWEET! Just a nice little push along with that resounding BOOM! I can't wipe the grin off my face.

A gent sold me a Dave Gentry mauser build and working perfectly do describe it.

OK. How many rounds of 404 Jeffery can we get in the magazine of a Mauser? I suppose it depends how long one makes the magazine. How about a single stack magazine? Wouldn't a single stack be more reliable and maybe easier to make reliable? Does anybody here have a single stack big-bore Mauser, or heard of such?

Just trying to learn here and ease the symptoms of the disease that Boxer calls "dumbphuckitude."

Dave was top shelf in many ways. My more recent experience with his son is not so good. PM me if you'd like more details.

Sorry to hear about Dave Gentry. Good men are too rare these days, and the whole world loses when one passes on. We can only hope that someone will think as highly of us when we pass on, and remember men such as Gentry as examples to follow.

I should probably wait to post about my new 416 Rigby in another thread when I have more experience with it, but I'm too excited to hold it in.

I have owned exactly two rifles that come exactly to point with the sights perfectly aligned when the rifle is thrown to the shoulder. The first was a BSA Imperial featherweight deluxe (that I foolishly sold). The second is this Ruger magnum rifle. It is absolutely uncanny! Every time I bring it up to my shoulder and weld my cheek against the comb, the standing rear express sight and gold bead front are perfectly aligned and pointing right where I am looking. I'm struggling with whether or not to mount a scope on it. This is getting exciting!

I think Echols only does Model 70s.

The Legends are only Model 70's, but he'll does many Classics on Mauser actions. In fact, I almost had him do a 7x57 on a 1909 Argentine action a few years ago, but bought a pickup truck instead.

Probably cost less too..

Especially since I only buy "slightly used" vehicles!

I did not know that. I'd love to see one his rifles with a 98 action.

jorge, there is a nice set of pictures of an Echols 505 on a Hartmann & Weiss mauser action in a recent Rifle magazine. done within the last year I believe. His mausers are all, except one, wood stocked.

Big R' About 20 years ago I saw a british rifle that was, I think a 500, that had been converted to a single stack magazine. It was a standard length 98 and had a thumb cut in the left receiver wall. I think it was a Jeffery but could easily be wrong. Wish I had it. Never have seen anything like it again.

I'm thinking the rails on a single stacker would have to be narrow in the rear to hold cartridges in by both rails. They would be loaded slightly forward and slid to the rear under the rails like a 22 magazine. This would complicate loading a bit but it should make for flawless inline feeding I would think.

As I said, any factory rifle needs a bit of tweeking to make it feed perfectly, and my new Ruger magnum 416 is no exception. The feed ramp is a bit too narrow and not polished at all. Its actually quite rough with lateral grinding marks to catch soft bullet noses. It stops when the nose of a 400gr Hornady hits. But it WILL be polished and made to feed perfectly, I assure you. I might even be able to handle this myself.

One more Ruger Rigby update: Shot full Rigby loads today. 90gr H4350 under 400gr Hornady. This gun is totally manageable! I'm surprised. Have had a few 375s that were worse. Course they weighed only 7 lbs whereas this Ruger is closer to ten. Took apart all my reduced loads with 40gr XMP5744 and reassembled all of them into the real thing. Mounted the Weaver K3 in low Ruger rings. Got her 2 inches high at 100 yards in 4 shots. That's enough fun for today. Gonna let my boys shoot her tomorrow.

Yeah, the .416 Rigby isn't bad at all in a rifle of the right weight.

Harry Selby's famous .416 was built on a standard 98 action by Rigby. I got to handle and fire it a few years ago, and it worked so well (including feeding REALLY slickly) that I decided to build one like it, also weighing 9-1/4 pounds. Modified a CZ 550 Magnum's stock so the rifle weighs 9-1/4 without scope, and worked over the action a little so it also feeds slickly and reliably. Pretty much a pussycat to shoot with standard-velocity loads, and not even too bad when scoped (10 pounds) with 400-grain bullets handloaded to .416 Weatherby velocities. In fact I'd rather shoot it than a .378 Weatherby!

Hornady lists 4 loads over 2700 fps with the 300gr Barnes TSX. That's 30-06 trajectory. Couple that with the proper softs and solids for dangerous game and I can't really see why one would need to take a separate rifle for plains game.

So I hear say (in print) that some African PHs believe the very best rifles are those from the big name London makers - H&H, Rigby, and maybe some others. Those rifles sell for tens, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's fine if one has the money, but are they really worth such ridiculous prices? Do they really function flawlessly? Are they really perfect? I might never know. Some of those rifles exceed my annual salary.

[/quote]

2 builders that kind of apply as the above would be TT Proctor of wilmslow, cheshire (he does have a web site) and the former head smith at "John wilks" London, Craig whitsey (NO web site he doesnt need one) if I EVER needed a rifle for DG I would jump through hoops to bring either over here.

Big,
Start a new thread over on the Big Bore topic. There is one like it hanging around in a local shop that is giving me the evil eye!
Don't forget the pics.

2 builders that kind of apply as the above would be TT Proctor of wilmslow, cheshire (he does have a web site) and the former head smith at "John wilks" London, Craig whitsey (NO web site he doesnt need one) if I EVER needed a rifle for DG I would jump through hoops to bring either over here. [/quote]

Why? I can see a sentimental attachment to the products of "Blighty", your homeland and I do not doubt that these chaps DO produce fine rifles, however, there are more GOOD riflemakers in the USA, by orders of magnitude, than in any other nation, the UK included.

Here in Canada, we have Martini Gunmakers and they can and do produce bolt rifles equal to ANY built anywhere at any time. I have quite a few big game rifles, 34 at present and have owned and carried scores more all over BC and much of Alberta, working in the wilderness. I also have owned "name" British guns and shot lots of others, Rigby and Holland, included. I would buy a Martini Mauser over any British bolt rifle I have ever seen and the cost of one is much less than paying for the "marque" of one of the famous Brit. makers.

In the USA, Lon Paul, D'Arcy Echols, Joe Smithson,Duane Weibe and on and on and on, can build DGRs that will meet and exceed anything and this is, IMHO, a more practical way to go.

There is another maker in Ontario and I have spoken with him by phone and am impressed with what he has to say and the reports I have of his products. I can't think of his name just now,it is Greek and begins with "S", IIRC.

So, given that the British makers now tend to copy the American style in bolt rifles as do the French, ie, Dorleac, the Germans, Prechtl, et al and other Euros, I see little point in paying to import a Brit, maker or rifle into Canada.

That said, if you WANT it and can pay for it, why now, this is all about fun, anyway, eh!

Some day I would like to have a 416 Taylor done up by Sterling Davenport. I think that he might of retired but every one of his guns that I have seen is a knock out.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Todd Ramierez www.customgun.com

Why? I can see a sentimental attachment to the products of "Blighty", your homeland and I do not doubt that these chaps DO produce fine rifles, however, there are more GOOD riflemakers in the USA, by orders of magnitude, than in any other nation, the UK included.

Here in Canada, we have Martini Gunmakers and they can and do produce bolt rifles equal to ANY built anywhere at any time. I have quite a few big game rifles, 34 at present and have owned and carried scores more all over BC and much of Alberta, working in the wilderness. I also have owned "name" British guns and shot lots of others, Rigby and Holland, included. I would buy a Martini Mauser over any British bolt rifle I have ever seen and the cost of one is much less than paying for the "marque" of one of the famous Brit. makers.

In the USA, Lon Paul, D'Arcy Echols, Joe Smithson,Duane Weibe and on and on and on, can build DGRs that will meet and exceed anything and this is, IMHO, a more practical way to go.

There is another maker in Ontario and I have spoken with him by phone and am impressed with what he has to say and the reports I have of his products. I can't think of his name just now,it is Greek and begins with "S", IIRC.

So, given that the British makers now tend to copy the American style in bolt rifles as do the French, ie, Dorleac, the Germans, Prechtl, et al and other Euros, I see little point in paying to import a Brit, maker or rifle into Canada.

That said, if you WANT it and can pay for it, why now, this is all about fun, anyway, eh! [/quote]

Maybe your comments are correct/true? however both of these smiths are "old school". Craig has become a friend through him building me a rifle and doing various other work for my friends and I, forgoing fashion for function. Trevor, his work shop was just around the corner from were I served my apprentiship and once allowed me to have a look at the way things were done. I have since handled a few of his rifles and they are beyond comparison.
And yes you are correct, it would be nice to have some English craftsmanship in my hands again, as it made sense to sell all my rifles when I moved over here (they were made by a Scottish builder "PRS") I got my rifles before he became "known" and then he inflated his prices and I went elsewhere.

...beyond comparison...? Welllll, that seems excessive to me. The British bolt rifles I have owned and those owned by friends were "OK", but, very over-priced for the actual quality. These were by Gibbs, Rigby, Holland and some lesser-known makers and I was/am not impressed by them.

I am half-British in ancestry, one of my great-grand papas was a Grenadier Guards officer and I am not "anti" Brit.,rather the opposite. But, Brit. "name" guns are priced for "snob" appeal and I just cannot see paying for that.

Ralf Martini's bolt rifles are FAR superior to any Holland or Rigby I have handled and cost a fraction of the price of a Brit. So, for me, that is where I would go, but, I am happy to "store" any of these Brit. rifles that you may not have room for at your current digs........

Geez, we bloody colonials are helpful, eh!

I have handled a 375 H&H built on a mauser action by H&H. I wasnt very impressed and certainly some of the smiths mentioned on this thread(Weibe, Martini) can smoke anything H&H is capable of.

I have no doubt that ANY of the smiths mentioned would smoke anything by H&H, what most seem to forget is that I would consider H&H as a "commercial" gunsmiths in that they have a "Team" of people making guns, and when you have a "team" of people you have a variance of quality between each person, they are also "employed" and as such, will have the friday afternoon monday morning syndrome!!.
However with those mentioned above they are all "self employed" and will have (hopefully) a different mindset?

Then you have the smiths that do it all, Craig and Trevor are in that category, they do all the metalwork, blueing,stoning, trigger work, everything (craig also makes his own mounts), they also do all the wood work, turning a blank into a stock, including chequering and bedding, the only thing that they dont do is the engraving.
Then the list of "true" smiths gets very small.

What I wonder about is what they do to a H&H, Rigby, Purdy, or any of the really high dollar bolt rifles to make them worth in the neighborhood of $20,000.00.

The rifles in this price range are plain, unadorned rifles. I can understand $50,000.00 worth of engraving and inlays, and a stock of the same quality.

But, you can buy a bolt rifle made in American, by some of the best builders, and the workmanship would be as good or better than any English rifle, for around $5000.00. You can spend more, but you have to put some effort into it.

I would love to own a Purdy in .404 Jeffery, but I know what the outlay would be. For me, the price is just too much, unless you just have to have it. Having to have it has never prevented anyone from getting one. Well, a lack of $20,000.00 might be a minor problem.

Sad to say. Mr. Davenport is firmly retired the last I heard. It took me a while to save up the money to have him do a .35 Whelen for me but he'd decided to quit working. On a brighter note though. I did have a .280 Remington put together by Lawson in Tucson and they farmed the stock out to Mr. Davenport for the checkering. I learned that when one day I had it at the range and Mr. Davenport saw the gun. He knew it right away. Guess I'll have to accept that as better than nothing. For the record, he is one hell of a nice guy. A true gentleman.
Paul B.

Theres many answers to your question.

The name? supply and demand? overheads? (London particularly were those premises are, are Hugely expensive) salary etc etc.

People often dont know or dont care, but I beleive that at the moment its a 5 year apprenticeship (I also seem to remember it used to be 7?) thats if you can get one!!.

I also believe the most expensive part of a "fine" gun/rifle is the engraving and have heard numbers as high as �80-100 per hour for such, how true this is, is debatable but the engraving is still the most expensive, then the wood work.

Dave, the above and your last post on this issue make a lot of sense and there is NO question that British-made guns are among the finest ever built anywhere. I would LOVE to go to the shops of guys like Trevor Proctor and just sit there and bask in the "aura" of master rifle work.......no bloody wonder I am always near broke and wear old jeans,etc......

I think that many here do not realize that,for most of the past 125 years, a bolr action rifle in the UK was seen as a "working grade" tool and not considered as an equal to the fabulous singleshot and double rifles built in the "Golden Era" from about 1875 to 1940. So, given the unfortunate "name" factor,many of we North Americans. tend to see a rather plain Holland as being too costly relative to what is available here.

A nice, but not really "fancy" rifle from Martini or Weibe is going to cost 20K and guys like Echols, Heilman,Mandarino and so forth are much more expensive. So, the difference really lies in,as always, what is most valid to you,the bloke whose bank account has to suffer the blow of paying for this obsession.....

What,would a basic Proctor or one of the other independent Brit. maker's rifles sell for, before VAT and what waiting period is normal?

Generally speaking your not "buying the rifle/gun" you are buying the parts and the work on those parts.

So, for example, your invoice will be broken down into 3 or 4 parts, you will be quoted a price for the work involved on the action/barrel, sighting system, blueing etc, then you will be quoted a price for the wood (blank) and then a price for the work ON the blank (chequering stock style etc) and then a price for the engraving (if any) and finally if you want the rifle/gun in a custom motor case with accessories load development for the bullet type weight that the client will be shooting most and any other "do dads) that the client might want.

Price wise a "basic" model would set you back about $5k at the VERY most probably alot less.

In one of my old shooting emporiums (F.A Andersons, East Grinstead) I once saw a Proctor hunter on a Sako action in .270 (yuck!!) on the shelf for �800!! if I had been after a new rifle on a long action i would have been all over this. It was next to a brand new Sako and the difference between the 2 was astonishing
I couldnt put my finger on it and say it was this or that it was just "different", that rifle stayed on the shelf for 2 days and then sold!! (270 in my old area wasnt popular at all)

Big Redhead,

If I understand you bought a Ruger .416 rigby.

Earlier you said that you wanted perfection from the get go. But then you posted several things that your Ruger needs.

Did your goal change, did you think the Ruger was close enough?

I'm really not trying to start a fight. But from your O.P. I thought that this was a deal that could only be satisfied by a full custom.

My 458 Lott was by David Christman. I also have a 7X57 mauser by him. I have a 9.3X62 on a Banner mauser by Jim Kobe. He is also finishing a 250-3000 Peruvian small ring mauser for me. James Anderson is doing a second rifle for me in 416 Rigby on a mod 17 Enfield. I would not hesitate to use any of them.Some other quality smiths have been mentioned.

Ralphie,

I started this thread to discuss and learn about the art of making perfect Mausers because it is a fun and interesting topic. Never did I say I was planning an actual custom build at this time. I like Ruger rifles and have wanted to own one of the magnums since their introduction. Even if I actually was planning a custom, there is no rule that dictates I cannot buy a Ruger magnum rifle at the same time.

FWIW, I think my Ruger magnum rifle has the potential for greatness. It already has all the essentials. I believe all it needs is a bit of handwork here and there. I got what I consider a pretty good deal on the NIB Ruger, and I think I will do the handwork myself and learn even more in the process. If I am successful making the rifle more-or-less perfect, it will end up being the least costly path. And if I screw it up and turn it into a single-shot it will be on me and I have nobody to blame but myself. Either way it will not cost anywhere near the price of a custom from a custom gunmaker of renown.

The gentleman I work with had built rifles for both president Bush's

I'd trust my 308 anywhere although it wouldn't be practical. It weighs 17.5 lbs with a scope :-D

Here's a link to my LGS that has this for sale,Mr Bishop is gone now,but what a rifle this is !! There is block on the link,so the photos can't be duped...Nice gun,along with a couple of Gene Smillion rifles that will pop your eyeballs out...

Go to www.gunsinternational.com




Guns International #: 100246809
Nate Bishop .416 Rigby, show gun









Lister Inventory #: N0853

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Michael Ullman of Hill Country Rifles. I have a 30-06 and a 9.3 x 62 that were executed flawlessly. One of those rifles has been to Africa and performed flawlessly. When I return the 30-06 will work its magic as well.

Michael is a superb artisan and one of the finest smith's and human beings I know and I would not hesitate to recommend hin for Mauser work.

Best,

Bill

I remember being at SCI in Vegas and seeing Nate Bishop working on a rifle during the show......I have wondered if this is the one.You don't hear as much about him but he was a great stockmaker.

That 416 is a beauty.

According to the shop,the rifle is marked inside the barrel channel,"1986 Show Gun" and signed by him.I found some of his writtings in "Gun Digest". I have handled this several times and it's well balanced,feels much lighter than a lot of .416's

rifle that must be the one.The years around 1985-89 or so was when I attended those conventions.They also had the Custom Gun Makers Guild shows at the same time(maybe the first ones?),but at another facility.

It was sensory overload. Never expected to see that rifle in finished form. Ah,the wonders of the Internet!