How real is the potential damage to the retina? Possible concussion? And maybe damage to an already repaired shoulder from the more powerful rifles?

My .375 seems tolerable, kind of like a big push instead of a harsh slap - but even so I don't usually shoot more than 20 cartridges in a single range trip with it.

The real big brutes, like African "stopping rifles" must be far worse... I've shot a .450 Ackley and a .458 Win mag - both were Model 70's and pretty brutal. In comparison a braked .50 BMG rifle didn't recoil bad at all. The blast was ferocious from that beast, but the recoil didn't seem nearly as bad as the .45 Ackley or the .458 Win mag.

A stout-loaded .45/70 Marlin was a pretty vicious kicker too.

Thanks for any info. Guy

I see a retinal surgeon every 6 months. I've asked him about this several times as he is a shooter himself. He knows of no true correlation to shooting and retinal damage. Detached retina rates have not been shown to be higher in shooters vs. non shooters.

Obviously just one man's opinion, but he does know a thing or two about the eye.

Guy, I can report that shooting anything with significant recoil (say, 30-06 or 7 WSM) triggers a relapse of symptoms from the severe concussion I suffered last November. I have to keep round counts down and I limit myself to shooting once a week.

From that I infer that it does "concuss" the brain to some degree. Whether recoil has a negative effect on a non-injured brain, I can't say.

Jeff, muzzle breaks wearing ear muffs is your answer.

Ugh

This doesn't answer your question Guy, but after my AC joint injury this fall I am much more sensitive to Sharp recoil vs big push recoil. That is I can take a sensibly loaded 45/70 or say 375h&h with factory 270gr loads, but shooting a light rifle in anything more than 308 winchester hurts.

I bet JB or Eileen weigh in here.
Some people can take being kicked, some can't.
Gus, if your family has any kind of retinal detachment history, I would pay attention. Or, if you've been concussed like Jeff, it's a factor. But the fact is, lots of people shoot and enjoy the loudenblizters. If you like them, and don't have overt risk factors, then do what you like.
Me, I just don't like being beaten up. So my top end for routine shooting is 30-06, and the only magnums I shoot belong to other people when I'm helping them work up a load.

A scope cut can cause damage to the Optic nerve or heavy recoil might lead to Retinal Detachment in older people. Otherwise i don't see how you could get any other damage unless you have a overload and gas and brass partials get in the eye.

Yeah, I thoroughly enjoy shooting my .375 Number One, and JB is very well acquainted with my rifle...

But I've had some injuries over the years in a rough & tumble life, and wonder about such things a bit. Am still in my mid 50's, more or less and in good shape physically, but a guy gets to wondering sometimes.

Anyone else wants to weigh in, your thoughts are appreciated.

Guy

I've known several people that have been affected by recoil.

First was Bob Brister, who shot tens of thousands of shotshells each year while competing. He had a detached retina that his physician attributed to so much shooting. (As Dirtfarmer has pointed out, there's a lot of disagreement about the effect of recoil on the human body, and a lot of it depends on the interpretation of data.)

Second was a gunsmith friend who passed out in his shop one day. His doctor asked if he was a professional boxer, because his brain showed similar symptoms to a boxer's. My friend has never boxed, but did personally test all the rifles he built, including some real hard kickers. His doctor advised him not to shoot the big rifles anymore, so my buddy found a friend who's real macho to do it. That as several years ago and he hasn't had any problems since. Dunno about his friend.

Eileen started getting reocil headaches a few years ago, from rifles and shotguns that hadn't caused any problem before. There's some disagreement about what causes recoil headaches, but they're definitely related to getting kicked. The most recoil she can take anymore beyond a few shots is from rifles like the .243 and .257 Roberts, and shotshells the equivalent of the 28-gauge.

The problem with trying to link detached retinas to recoil is that there are no and never will be any clinical trials to determine if its a factor or not.

Some people who shoot big bores never get detached retinas and some people who get detached retinas never shoot big bores. The older you get, the greater your chances. For shooters, the older you get, the more you have shot. Any correlation? Who knows?

Like the person above who must have shot well over 100,000 shotshells before having a detached retina, was his risk any different than the person who gets a detached retina without ever shooting a gun in his life? Would he have had a detached retina even if he didn't shoot shotguns all the time? Who knows?

I wonder if there is a larger incidence rate for African PHs to have detached retinas verses non shooters or small bore shooters. Or the incidence rates for professional skeet/trap shooters.

Obviously once you have had a detached retina recoil becomes very important, but its really hard to say what affect it has as a primary cause.

My general rule is if it hurts, don't do it. That threshold is around 416 rem/rigby level for me.

Yep, those are always the questions!

And your general rule is no doubt a good one--except for people who like to be hurt.

When you are healing your brain, you notice what brings on the Bad Times... and it's kind of amazing the things we do that jar our brains that I'd never noticed before. Like splitting wood. I threw myself for a loop a couple weeks ago, doing that. I guess the impact comes up through your arms? Dunno.

Or, think about how if you see something you don't want to remember, how people shake their heads real fast to sort of erase the last few seconds from short-term memory... weird stuff.

I'm moderatly ok with moderate kickers now in moderation... grin... but I shudder at the thought of something like my straight-stock Guide Gun, or my 3-3/4" 12 guage magnum turkey gun.

I suspect that as they dig deeper into this stuff (concussions) they will find that heavy recoil does indeed damage SOME brains. I'm told individual physiology really plays a huge part. I have a large brain (seriously) with less fluid cushioning around it than ideal which likely contributed to the severity of my concussion. I guess some numbnuts have brains with tons of cushioning and are much more resistant.

An association doesn't prove causation. For example, for years it was known that lung disease, heart disease and cancer were associated with smoking tobacco. It took years and mountains of data before a definitive conclusion regarding causation could be made. Causation requires a much higher standard of proof than association.

There seems to be a wide variety of symptoms associated with cumulative trauma to the nervous system. The retina is technically part of the nervous system. More is known about acute, less about the effects of chronic, cummulative trauma.

Why are some affected and others not? That has to do with biological variability. We're all put together differently and tolerate different amounts of trauma. That variability is expressed in probabilities, using bell curves and standard deviations, not too unlike some of our ballistic data. The more diverse the biological sampling and the more subtle the changes being observed and measured, the larger the sample size needed to establish statistical relevance.

So, it may take a very long time to sort this out, as these effects can be very subtle. Some questions may never be conclusively answered. In the mean time, common sense must rule. If shooting, etc., seem to be causing a set of symptoms, caution must the observed and action taken to prevent serious consequences.

Your rule, "if it hurts, don't do it", is actually a very good one.

DF

As far as testing, perhaps a new meaning to "mouse gun"?

I've wondered if there is something in the way that people handle recoil that makes a difference. By that I mean the actual physical way they absorb the recoil with their body.I've noticed that,when shooting heavier recoil firearms,some people tend to really lean into it in an attempt to control the gun.Others,meanwhile,seem to take a more upright and relaxed stance. Watching them shoot, it seems to me that the ones who stand more relaxed and upright exhibit more visible recoil, in that the gun tends to raise up higher and the body move backwards more upon firing. The former seem to absorb the recoil into themselves more by not allowing the gun to move and not allowing their body to move with the gun.
Maybe there's nothing to it, but it seems to me that letting the gun move and letting your body move with it would mitigate some of the effects of the recoil. I read an article many years ago about this,and the author believed that smaller,lighter people actually handled recoil better than larger/heavier people simply because there is less mass for the recoil to act upon. He claimed that heavier and larger people were forced to absorb more of the recoil before their body begins to move,while those with a ligher body mass were moved sooner,thus absorbing less of the recoil into the body.Seems to me like that may actually make sense, but I don't know if that actually bears out in real world situations.

caller bone, 375 h&h and the front tire all looking at a stump with a knot in it. The bone gave.

I seem to remember that both Brister and John Wootters had issues with detached retinas...
I guess that I'd consider both of them to be extreme shooters, in that they both did a lot of work with heavy kickers...

Wootters was a bit of a personal hero, and my favorite writer of the late 70s and early 80s...

i'm 54, and have had my share of mostly minor head injuries... A bicycle wreck in my teens netted me a bit of a concussion which took me a long time to fully recover from, as I recall... Nobody paid it much mind at the time, as it was common for young guys to get their bells rung, one way or another...

I've never aspired to shoot anything like as much as either Brister or Wootters, and i do not worry about head or eye trauma that might be associated with recoil...

I did have a shoulder replaced in 2008, and although recoil, per se, is not an issue, the surgery changed the way that i shoulder and hold a rifle... I have a newfound affection for the exaggerated, or california style monte carlo stock design, on the one rifle i acquired which has it...

Although the data is incomplete, I think it wise to pay attention to John, jeff, Dirtfarmer and others when they tell us thet here is what we did and this is what happened EVEN though we do not for sure know why. This seems like good, no BS reasoning to me. I used to enjoy the loudenboomers, but as I age, the lighter calibers are more appealing and so are the gas operated BARs. jack

We were just discussing Bob Hagel's chronic headaches in another thread and a few of us suggested that his affinity for shooting hot loaded magnums was probably a likely culprit. I still believe that. Also I believe I remember Jim Carmichael talking about someone who got a detached retina from shooting the Elephant rifles.

I am not a writer, but I have had some injuries due to recoil. Black eye on right side from a 3 1/2 in mag 12 ga hitting my cheek bone. then the worst was a broken cheekbone same side of course. so I sold the shotgun. may have some 3 1/2 mags left. but I will never shoot them.

I will be 70 this year and recoil has become a definite limiting factor for me. Too much recoil gives me a headache, so I limit the number a rounds I fire with anything harder kicking than the good old 30.06. I avoid the really big stuff. I also hate muzzle brakes and will not be in a hunting situation with someone who is likely to fire a large rifle with one of the damn things without prior warning so I can flee to the next county. The biggest animal on my list this year is a bull elk and I'll use a 280AI. My rifle is a little heavier than most on the fire would want to carry(right at 9lbs loaded and ready to go), but its weight helps to dampen felt recoil. The deer hunting I'll do will get done with a 257R from the now defunct Serengeti outfit. So no problem.

MD, I know this isnt a rifle, but if I remember right wasnt it John Taffin who had to give up shooting large handguns,or handguns altogether, due to the recoil over the years of them big hand cannons did severe damage to his hands.

Swifty

I haven't experienced any adverse effects from heavy recoiling rifles to date.

Started in about 1985 at age 22 with a 378 WBY, and have progressed through the years with.

375 H&H
375 AI
416 Taylor
416 Rigby
458 Win
460 WBY
500 Nitro
505 Gibbs
577 Nitro
8 Bore Rifle

Although it may be impossible for me to give a correct diagnosis, always being kinda thick-headed and all.

Gunner

Swifty,

A number of folks who've regularly shot hard-kicking handguns have ended up with various sorts of damage, ranging from carpal tunnel to torn ligaments.

Gunner,

That "thick headed" trait may be your ticket to a trouble free life with big boomers...

Just a thought...

DF

LOL DF

Gunner

Skip Talbot was among those who ended up with various sorts of damage.

Purely anecdotal though it be I've long considered Block That Kick by Donald Hamilton to accord with my own experience and observation - and to some extent before I had some of the personal experiences and so to predict them.

It's quite certain that my own performance degrades in proportion to power - see e.g. power factor and major caliber issues in competition and in rifle design and cartridge choices especially rested - it's also my observation that as I age my recovery slows - I have no reason to believe that a notch at 4kHz is the only long lasting damage.

I had always considered myself recoil proof. I've enjoyed big bores for years. But a few years ago, I put two boxes of 400 grain loads through my 416T, two boxes of 286 grainers through my Chapuis and a little over two boxes of 300 grain loads through my 375. I shot a couple boxes of lighter stuff while the barrels cooled between groups. I was chronographing a bunch of loads and having a great day. That evening, I went to help my son move. I complained about the flashing lights in the truck cab. He claimed there weren't any lights flashing anywhere. I had a retina repair done the next day. The eye guy, a shooter, told me no rifles for six weeks. I can't say the shooting was the cause, but it certainly is suspect. I should note that I've been sewn back together a couple times from things that caused others to shake their heads when I did them. 'Hey guys watch this stuff.' It's bad when they know you on a first name basis at the emergency room.
I've since developed arthritis in both my hands and shoulders. They might be more related to stupidity, farming, and falling accidents than shooting, but it has had a serious impact on my shooting. So much so that I'm now pondering whether I should be selling my big bore rifles and handguns. The old saying, if I'd have known I was going to live this long, I've had taken better care of myself seems to apply. But why waste wisdom on the young. By the way, there are also hearing aids in my ears.
Just think about what you're doing to your body. You only get one.
Bfly

????

That would be one heck of a scope cut as the optic nerve inserts in the back of the eyeball.

I had that same thought, but held my tongue.

Your observation, of course, is absolutely correct.

DF

for me, i get headaches if i shoot anything bigger than a .243 or so, for very long. it's not a pain thing exactly. it just feels like someone has been slapping me in the back of the head and it sucks.

that said, i bought an ADL 700 in .270 last year and the new supercell recoil pad just about eliminated that feeling even with the .270 being more recoil than my .243.

maybe it's how long it takes for the recoil impulse to hit you? i shoot a 20 gauge shotgun and it doesn't seem to bother me as much as a rifle of same weight and recoil slapping he hard as opposed to a shotgun's more gradual recoil impulse.

also, if i am standing it's much lessened than if i am at the bench letting it jar me.

i am 31 and a big guy (6 feet tall and 280), so it's not like i am older or smaller and thus have a problem.

I've seen pictures of the old timers shooting their big boomers over a standing rest. Standing allows more movement of the upper torso than seated and leaning forward over a bench.

Greater movement allows the motion of the gun to be arrested over a greater distance, thus less perceived recoil.

Or put another way, the velocity of the gun in recoil is diminished at a slower rate.

Like the old saying, the fall wasn't so bad, just the landing. It's that sudden deceleration that does the damage.

DF

Thanks Blackfly 1, I am very aware of my old bag of bones, and I do pay attention, I just try to squeeze all the performance I can out of myself.

But at 50 years, I'm gonna have to start cuttin' her back a bit.

Gunner

I like shooting big bore handguns.You do not have to shoot every round at full max to enjoy them.For big bore enthusiasts who enjoy shooting more than pain "Trail Boss" is your friend!!!

+1 One of my favorite lines in Elmer Keith's writings is his report that he fired about 600 full power rounds in the 44 magnum the first year he owned it. Keith wasn't known for recoil sensitivity but it seems he did know how to pace himself with full power ammo, and that might be the key to avoiding long-term damage.

I shoot a muzzle-braked 30-378AI. The recoil is negligible, but I start getting a headache after 15 rounds or so, and I take my time, never letting the barrel get hot. I also clear the line of other shooters.

They hate to see me coming.

I'm suffering from recoil injury right now. My shoulder is black & blue from shooting one of my .30-06's too many times the other day. I knew I was done when after my final shot I shrieked "ouch" out loud.

Funny you mention the 30-378 MD, I had one of those back in the early 1990's, it was a rechambered '06 Ruger #1, that sombuck was one of the most unruly rifles I ever fired.

With 200 gn Partitions and IIRC 120 someodd grains of H-5010 that flame throwin' bench buckin' SOB was pure hell to hang on to.

I was by far not the hardest kicking rifle I have ever fired, just the rudest.

Gunner

I don't know about detached retinas but I've been careful to use ear plugs, then ear muffs, than both, then both with better ear muffs, since I was 16 whenever I shot anything more than a .22 (except when hunting).

Now, in addition to the gradual loss of hearing as frequency increases, I have a sharp dip at 4000 Hz, caused by shooting. I'll be getting hearing aids this month.

In addition, I had a very old 12 gauge Model 12 that had a pointy toe on the stock. I could not shoot 25 shots of low-base loads without making my shoulder black and blue.

Hey Gunner!

I knew there was something I liked about ya besides your uncommon common sense! My 30-378AI hardly kicks at all. It's in a stock McMillan A5 stock I hollowed out (except the wood in the palm-swell area), then filled it back up with Brownell's STEEL BED and 3 mercury recoil reducers. I was shooting for 15 lbs; I waaay over shot and hit 23 lbs unloaded. You can tell a fierce reaction is taking place when you light one of those roman candles off, but the felt recoil is minimal. I still have to hold it hard to get good groups, but that's no chore. I don't much care for recoil but I like the big boomers, so I either get smacked when I pull the trigger, or, add an insane amount of weight to the rifle.

Galldang, sounds like you got a 15# rock steady long range bone and meat punch. that cartridge is a truly amazing beast.

Got an old Bud with one that slings 240's waaaaaaaay out there.

Gunner

Double post, too much recoil w/o a helmet.

Some stock configurations seem to cause less jab to the face than others. Winchester SX3 has a nearly level comb and near zero pitch, similar to Browning Gold. It is light, but does not punish. A Browning XT Trap Special with adj comb and high rib also has a nearly level comb and very low bore axis, esp from the bottom barrel. It shoots softer than a few gas guns that I have tried.

I think that face slap from recoil gets annoying very quickly. It may be a factor in detached retina problems - I do not know.

Technique may help - one of the best shotgun shooters I ever saw used a light (~6.5lb) Browning Superposed with checkered butt. She was on Mexico's ISU skeet team, and shot the 3.5 DE 1-1/8oz boomers that were allowed back then. I noticed that she barely touched the comb to her cheek, but she could do that consistently. I did see her complain about a sore shoulder once - after ~7 quick practice rounds. Her picture (Nuria Ortiz) is in Brister's book on shotgunning in a chapter on two barreled guns. The gun in the pic looked like what she shot when I saw her. Nuria made ISU skeet look easy - AA class all the time I saw her shoot.

Have read that the degree of Myopia (nearsightedness) is more important than the cause (recoil in this case) in predicting retinal detachment. A study reported in the American Journal of Epidemiology suggests that 55% of all Retinal Detachments are caused by Myopia. Being nearsighted myself, I stay away from the boomers. IMHO when it comes to the possibility of a Retinal Detachment, the less risk factors, the better.

"I think that face slap from recoil gets annoying very quickly. It may be a factor in detached retina problems - I do not know."

If you're experiencing this, you do not have a correct position or have an ill-fitting stock or both. Is your scope possibly too high?

Your cheek should be firmly on the rifle--no slap--and even help absorb a bit of the recoil.

I'm curious what you would use a 23 pound 30-378AI for.

I get the face slap from some shotguns. The SX3 and the XT Trap do not cause it - no chunk of wood positioned to hit the face. Lots of shots while target shooting reveals the problem soon enough. About any gun with a significant difference in drop from nose to heel can cause it. Taking recoil with the hands is possible, as hip shooters do. I recall once shooting at a target, and feeling little kick as my hands took it all. If I could learn to do that w/o it becoming a type of flinch it could be good.

I do not recall being bothered so much in rifle shooting. Fewer shots involved, and the rifles had much flatter combs than many shotguns.