OK John i know this will get lots of opinions from the peanut gallery,, So far i have only used Remington factory 250 core lockt in my rem 700 classic 35 wehelen,, Kills deer like thunder..Want to reload for heavier game like elk,, moose,, and bears,, and also heavy african plains game.. I really like Nosler Partition,,, would you use 225gr or 250gr.. as a best choice, Is Varget best powder in this round..Thanks for your time..By the way John i used to live in Bozeman wish we would have met, I really enjoy your articles, Ed

I'm not JB, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. That said, I like/load 250gr Partitions over 59gr R-15 and it works better than well in 2 Rem 700 Whelenators.

The Speer 250 Hot-Cor shoots equally well with same charge, but is not as tough of a bullet. Nor as costly. I will load them for deer this year.

IMHO, the 35 Colonel was meant to shoot 250gr bullets. They are all I load......

I have never hand loaded any bullets that have shot moose or African game. I have for elk, black bear, caribou, deer, hog, and small game. IMO 225gr TSX is a good choice. If I was to hunt big bear it would be with a 250gr A-Frame.

The 225 TSX is tempting, I must say.

Either said 250 gr bullet is capable of fine accuracy.......

I have used the 350 Rem Mag for a long time and prefer the 225 Nosler partition over all other bullets. The extra 200fps over the 250 grain bullet helps with long range expansion and the penetration is still very good. I move up to the 250 with the 358 Norma.

Here is an article I wrote some time ago. It might help.

http://35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.html

If I could handle only one rifle, there's a good chance that a .35 Whelen would be my choice. I've shot deer, elk, caribou, kudu, impala, and gemsbok with mine. Farthest any went was about 100 yards, and it was dead and just wouldn't pay attention.

I've shot various bullets, everything from 200 gr to 275 gr, but when it came to actually hunting -- 250 is the answer. And generally with a flat or rounded bullet.

Dennis

When I first built my .35 Whelen about 15 yrs. ago, I read everything I could get my hands on regarding loading for the Whelen. Based on my research, I chose IMR 4064 as my powder of choice. I loaded it behind bullets from 200gr. to 225gr. in a variety of charge weights. My range testing showed that the .225gr. bullet produced the smallest groups in my rifle. In '08 I took an 8pt. whitetail, a double lung shot at 100 yds. yielded a blood trail a blind man could follow and a dead deer after approx. a 30yd. death run. Research subsequent to that hunt has shown that here on the Campfire the are several .35 Whelen shooters who have had fine results with RL-15. My next session at the reloading bench I will be utilizing that powder.

To what extent does rate of twist effect a Whelen's ability to stabilize 250s? Does that only come into play on longer bullets than that?

I've been thinkin hard on a 1 in 14" twisted mauser that appears to be priced right by a local shop.

My 16 twist rifles handle flat based 250 Bullets very well as far away as I have tested (about 400 yards). 14 twist may be better. The 225 Accu-bonds don't group well past 200 yards. I think a faster twist is needed. They are very long!

With a 1:14 my STA shoots 280 A-Frames great. The rifle range we shoot at is only 275yds and in. I haven't shot past 275yds with this bullet.

A Ruger M77 has always prefered the Speer 250 gr with 58 grains of IMR 4320. Never shot deer with it, only Moose, Elk and Black bear. Tried the 225 grain Nosler Partition in this rifle back in 1990 with three or four different powders, but accuracy was lackluster. Was impressed with the velocity though it was up around 2700 fps.

Nosler's test rifle is a 1-12" ROT.

The 280 A-Frame is purposefully designed to be short enough to stabilize in a 1-14 twist, as is just about any .35 caliber bullet from a major company, because so many .35-caliber rifles have 1-14 twists. If they made bullets that would only stabilize in 1-12 twists they'd get a lot of complaining from the average guy, and wouldn't sell many bullets.

That's exactly why there aren't any true spitzers over 250 grains in .35. (The 280 AF is actually flat-point semi-spitzer.) It's also why Barnes doesn't make a TSX over 225 grains, and Nosler doesn't make an AccuBond over 225.

I'd be tempted to use the 225-grain AccuBond as an all-around bullet in the .35 Whelen. It's plenty tough, and the long-range BC is better than Nosler shows--better than the 225 Partition and noticeably better than the 225 TSX. Load the 225 AB up to 2700+ fps and it would work both up close and way out there.

I have been shooting 250gr Hornadys out of my 350remmag; no kills and 1.25" groups.

I am going to try 200gr Barnes TTSX soon.

Grayfox,

Welcome to the 'fire. Sorry this is so darn wordy

I like the Partition also.
That said, there are very few 225gr and heavier .35 caliber bullets that would disappoint you for what you desire to accomplish with the Whelen.

In the world of Mono-metals, I've had quite a few kills using the 225 TSX, but I'm liking the higher B.C and velocity provided by the 200 TTSX. That said, most of my killing with the 225 TSX occurred inside of 200 yards and it seemed to give pretty good expansion at those impact velocities.
Note: Behind the shoulder double lung shots usually meant a 100 yard blood trail.

I've not tested the 200gr TTSX for low velocity expansion. If it is launched from the muzzle at 2800fps it's .369 B.C value will have it slowed down to less than 2100fps by the time it reaches 300 yards. I am still not real confident in it's ability to expand at that velocity.

The 225 NPT is a softer bullet and It's .430 B.C isn't enough to increase it's longer range impact velocity much higher that that of the 225gr TSX/200gr TTSX. But I'll choose it over the Mono-metal if I suspect impacts of low velocity.


I ran the 250 gr NPT when going after Moose and knowing that ranges might be 300 yards or farther. Although it's .446 B.C. is a wee bit higher than all the above, it doesn't get pushed much beyone 2400fps from my muzzle.
It's beauty is, when impacts are close and the typical front half does it's thing, you have more bullet shank and weight plowing through than you will have with the 225gr version.
And the 250gr NPT will plow.

All in all, you could blindly pic most any 35 cal bullet of 225gr and heavier and enjoy the results.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hodgdon will suggest Varget.
But I got better shot to shot consistency with H-4895
Rl-15 might give slightly faster velocities.., slightly.

2 deer and 2 elk 225 gr Partition IMR 4320 bout as good as it gets in MY book,can't imagine how it could have been better dead is dead. Magnum Man

250 grain speer hot core 35 caliber bullets, federal 215 primers, over IMR 4320,or H4895, or WW748 or IMR 3031, all work reasonably well.

Now that John has answered the rest of the "peanut gallery" can answer It is really hard to beat the 225 gr Accubond for all around use, the moose I shot with one last fall would agree. The 225 gr Partition is another great choice and seems to damage less meat than the Accubonds from what we have seen in the past. In my old Whelen 60 gr Varget with a CCI 250 gave 2763 fps from a 22" barrel chronographed 10 feet out. When my new Whelen gets here tomorrow 200 gr Accubonds and 200 gr TTSX will be waiting,both may be great bullets but the 225 gr Ab will be hard to beat.

North61,

Contrary to popular belief, bullets do not become less stable further downrange. They actually become more stable, due to spinning just about as fast while air pressure on the front end of the bullet decreases due to less velocity.

Your problem with the 225 AccuBond and downrange accuracy is due to something other than the 1-16 twist.

John,

What's it mean when someone says the bullet goes to sleep?

Every rifle bullet wobbles a little when it leaves the muzzle, but if the rifling twist is enough for the bullet it quits wobbling very quickly. That's what's meant by the bullet "going to sleep."

However, the average shooter apparently believes the wobble is much greater than it actually is. Unless the twist is totally inadequate for stabilizing the bullet, firing a shot at a target 10 feet away results in a round hole of bullet diameter, not an oblong.

There is some VERY slight effect on ballistic coefficient due to bullet wobble (or "precession") from the muzzle, but not enough to show up even at several hundred yards, as long as the rifling twist is sufficient to really stabilize the bullet.

Hmmmmmm and what shop would that be, pray tell?

My favorite has been the 225 gr TSX at 2625 fps. This is easily a 300 yard load and I do not plan on shooting further than this. Weather you choose the 225 or 250 you will have a cartridge that will take any game in NA and most plains game of Africa.

Thanks John for that good info!!!

I've used the 225 gr Accubond on a couple of bears. Worked great. My rifle also shoots the 225 gr Sierra well, and I think this would be a good deer load.

I missed the point on why there are no AB's or Barnes in 250gr. I have some old Barnes FXB's in 250gr and they have provided pretty good hunting accuracy ( 1.5"/100yd groups)and on target performance over the years. Much of the reason I went to 9.3 is that I can use the premium 250gr bullets and have the option for common 286gr bullets.

Well I don't know. I have a very accurate 358 Norma with a Heavy 14" Douglas barrel. With 225 Sierra's there is a fairly mathematical relationship with 225 Sierras from 100-500 yards.
.5 MOA at 100 and 3-4" at 400. That's normal for me and I think the relative opening of groups at 400 yards is due to wind and sighting errors (I use a Leupold 4X scope)
The 225 A-Bonds do well at 100 and don't keep the MOA as you stretch distance. 3/4" at 100 yards and 6-10" at 400 yards.
I have shot a lot of groups at 300-400 yards. It's possible I had some fluke good groups at 100 yards with the A-Bonds. Might not be statistically valid as I have only shot 2 groups of 3 at 100 yards with the A-Bonds.

I have several boxes of the discontinued 225 Nosler BTs that JB championed a few years back. They will be reloaded for my custom #1S Whelen as a DRT evening round.

Suggestions on a load?

1B

225 gr. Partition for big game and the 225 gr. Sierra for paper and deer sized game.

THough I have shot nothing with my Whelen yet, I use the 250 Speer for practice, and will use it for hunting deer, and I have a load with the 250 partition for anything bigger if I get the chance to hunt Elk someday. I mayuse the partition on deer as well.

My uncle had 5-6 Griffin and Howe rifles when I was growing up. Each year he'd take the train from NJ to Wyoming to hunt elk (4 week trip). My favorite was a G&H Mauser in 35 Whelen which I just drolled over; he promised it to me (I was about 12 at the time), but his kids got it when he died - this is as it should be, but none of them even liked guns.

I bought a Remington 700 in 35 Whelen several years ago and generally load cup and core bullets for shooting (and deer hunting). For larger game, I'd pick 250 gr. Nosler Partitions, but any premium bullet would work.

I also lucked into several boxes of the old Nosler 225 grain BTs. They are, by far, the most accurate bullet in my Whelen. My most accurate load has been 60 grains of RL15, Federal match primers, in a Nosler case for 2730fps in a 24" tube. This load is over book max. Approach with caution. I was surprised at how tough these bullets are. I sectioned one and found 60% of the bullet is jacket.

Are you sure that's your load--that's 6 grains over high book (Nosler #6). 59 grains is the listed max load for 225gr bullets.

As for me personally, I like 250's--why else would you buy a Whelen?? Here's mine with a cow elk from 3 years ago. The bullet was a 250gr Hornady:

I'm not a Gunwriter, but if I had a 35 Whelen I would HAVE to give that big 280 gr Swift A Frame a run out.

If it would shoot, it would make the old Colonel proud.

Gunner

The 225 gr TSX or North Fork isn't a bad bullet on the bigger bears either.

Enough said!

1B,

I am shooting a #1K1A in 35 Whelen. With 225's It does well with a powder grain weight in the mid/upper 50's with H4895 getting right around 2630fps.

These rifles have an extremely long throat and because of that I have found accuracy suffers with shorter bullets that cannot be seated close to the lands.

I think it's kind of hard to make a bad choice with a 35 whelen if you follow a few basic guidelines. I don't think I would want to shoot under 225 grains at a big animal (elk, bear, moose, etc) unless it was a Barnes X bullet. I would also shy away from Sierras if I was going after a big animal as well (we've had too many core separations and wouldn't use it on anything other than a broadside deer). I've been using 250 Speers with total success and my brother has used Barnes X 225s and now Noslers Partitions without any problems. When in doubt go with a premium bullet or more bullet weight and you should be good to go.

I took a Remington 700 CDL in 35 Whelen to South Africa this this year shooting old Speer 250 grain Spitzer over IMR 4064. Killed great.

I had a shot at a bull kudu that apparently hit an unseen branch on the way there. I shot him a second time quartering away were he dropped. Examination showed four entry wounds and one perfectly mushroomed bullet under the offside skin and two wounds to the lungs. So even using 40 year old soft bullets and the first shot breaking into at least three pieces, it still inflicted a mortal wound. I think this illustrates what is meant by "it's hard to make a bad choice".

My .35 Whelen is a M-98 with a Shilen #3 barrel with a 1-12" twist.....It shoots the 225 partition quite nicely.....and has never failed me so far. I suspect the 225 grain accubond is an equivalent bullet or possibly better.

I get very good trajectory and downrange energy from the 225 grain bullets so have no reason to want more....unless of course I wanted to use it for something a lot bigger than elk...but then I'd want a .375 H&H.

My .35 Whelen:













[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/35-41.JPG[/img]

200 XFB, 225 NAB, 225 NPT, 250 HIL, 250 SHC, 250 SGS.....pretty tough to find a bad bullet in the 35s. That means more to me than "best".

YEP..!

There You Go..!

I've used a lot of bullets in the Whelen and last fall used the 200 TTSX to hammer a caribou (1 shot), a brown bear (1 shot) and a moose (2 shots). Tough to want more terminal performance. I recovered the two bullets from the moose. The first TTSX was from 400+ yards and had an impact velocity of around 1850 fps and was found in the offside shoulder--expansion seems sufficient. That bullet is pictured to the right in the photo.

The only bullet I didn't like in my Whelen was a 200gr Hornady spire point. It failed to penetrate on whitetail more than once. I think the particular 200gr bullets I tried were designed for 35 Rem velocities in ss handguns. Large surface wounds from my Whelen. Today I shoot 250 Speers with no issues on deer. Have also tried the 225gr ballistic tips when they were available but accuracy in my Ruger M77RS was not as good as the 250gr Speer so I never hunted them IIRC.

Back when Finn Aagard wrote about the Whelen he found that Re15 was the best powder. In the articles I read he liked 59.5gr of the stuff with 250gr jacketed spitzers but said he went up to 60gr with no pressure signs. I tried this and also found no pressure signs, but settled on a working load of 59gr. They leave moderate size holes through deer, and I do mean THROUGH.

Only use the 225 gr TSX in mine. See no reason to change.

Nice rifle! Who did the stock work?

I did almost all the metal and stock work myself....the only thing I farmed out was the checkering, bluing, and barrel engraving of the caliber.

406_SBC,

Thanks for the pics. I have not seen this bullet post "testing" so this to me is looking very good, especially at an 1850fps impact velocity.

What's the story behind the bullet on the left..?

---------------------------------------

..and yes, Vapodog, that's a beauty.!

Nice elk. And I feel the same way about the 250s, and so did the Colonel himself. 250s are the only way to fly with a Whelenator.

And yes, I 'm quire certain of the load......





Primers look just fine.......



Regardless of what your manuals say, 58gr of R-15 is a very common loading in the 35 Colonel with 250s. Mine just likes 59gr a tad better

Finally got some pics available...I do like using the Whelen...













Just some fun stuff to look at...!

Dennis

Im amazed at times, by the questions and reactions of guys watching me when I take my remington 7600 35 whelen and sako 375 H&H to the range with my chronograph.
either rifle shoots consistent 3 shot 100 yard groups off a bench rest under 1.2"in diam.
most of the comments are based on what seems to be , or is the common idea that many guys hold , that they seem to think that if your not pushing a bullet over 2800 fps at a minimum, it will bounce off game.
my 250 grain whelen loads are clocking about 2450 fps , my 270 grain H&H loads are clocking closer to 2600fps from my carbine...trust me when I tell you, that in 40 plus years of hunting my experience is neither rifles bullets bounce off elk!
velocity might not be all that impressive but I guess the Elk never noticed.


375 H&H CARBINE


35 whelen

\
John,

Do you mean 1-16 twist? I remember your "Dream Rifle article and you mention 1-16.

Awesome pics Dennis.

Tell me about the rifle in the last pic......

I realized after I put it up that it's not a .35 Whelen...it's a .444. oops...

Nice thing about today is I can change things at any moment..!

Thanks for the help...

Dennis

The bullet on the let was found in the bull's neck. When I approached the bull he was clearly not long for this world, but I brought that remaining time to an abrupt end. It was recovered from the neck just under the hide after demolishing several vertebrae. That shot came from something less than a 100 yards and should have had a terminal velocity near 2700 fps. Punching through that last inch of moose hide just wasn't in the cards.......

I'm a light bullet, high velocity guy anymore. That said, I only feed my Whelen 250's, because why wouldn't you?

Exactly.

I believe you use a stout charge of R-15 like I do, right?

Negative, IMR4064

I knew it wasn't a Whelen

I'm a big 444 fan also.....

No [bleep]? I thought you used a similar load to mine.

4064 and Varget do about the same thing as the R-15. The latter is just a tad faster....

Because the 200 TTSX will penetrate as deeply as a 250 grain slug, the hole is still .358+ in diameter and 400+ yards is much easier with a bullet starting at 2800+ fps rather than 2500 fps. I like the 250s and if forced to use cup & core that's where I'd stay. However, the 200 TTSX does everything a 250 cup & core will terminally, and it improves the external ballistics of the Whelen rather dramatically--where's the downside? There are times when less is more and I think this most certainly qualifies.

I hear you and I ain't gonna argue, but I'm still a 250 man with the Whelen.

After two or three years of shooting a Whelen or three, I had the best luck by necking it down to take a .308 diameter 200 Grain Nosler Partition at about 2700 fps.

I've used them both quite a bit and the Whelen just will not allow space in the safe for its much lesser sire. For smaller game there's not much to choose from, but on bigger stuff I see too much difference to choose the lesser cartridge......

Well, my go to load in my .35 Whelen Mauser is the 225 gr. Barnes TSX over 60.4 gr. of RE15. Vekocity is 2710 FPS and they gather in .50 to .75" clusters at 100 yards. I've only shot one cow elk with it so far and it was one of the most spectacular drop a critter on the spot dead I've ever seen in 63 years of hunting. Shot my first deer in 1949 with my Great-grandfather's only M94 30-03 and it was in 2010 that I dropped the cow elk. Beem quite a fw deer, a couple other elks and one speed goat during all those years but none that I can remember went down as fast as that elk. You don't have to guess what I'll be using for elk this year. It may not be that Whelen but it will be a Whelen. I haven't taken anything with my Remington 700 Classic yet so maybe I'll take that one. I still have to take the Ruger M77 in the Whelen to my gunsmith's to have the headspace checked. Dunno if it was just a bad factroy round or if there is a problem but I did have a total case head separation with a 200 gr. Remington factory load in that rifle.
Someone commented that a persons load was what? 6 grains above book max? Doesn't surprise me a bit. Just another Remington screw up IMHO. Methinks the SAAMI specs are kept deliberately low because of all the old 1903 Springfields, 1895 Winchester and Remington pumps and semi-autos chambered to the round. I do believe the Whelen can be loaded a bit warmer than that. My load leaves primers nice and round, CHE and CRE are neglible and cases last a long time. What's not to like?
If I were to go with cup and core bullets, I'd just use any standard 250 out there. At even top veocity they should hold together just fine on most game. Maybe this year I might take the M700 with either the 250 gr. Hot Core or the Hornady IL, depending on which one the rifle likes. Might even try the Hornady RN just for spits and grins. Should work just fine for shots at 200 yards or less.
Paul B.

The only slug I was disappointed in with a Whelen was the 280aframe. Pushed at 2350fps it showed minimal expansion on a couple of pigs so I gave up on it. One pig was shot at a quartering angle, hit the shoulder and exited a ham but left a pretty minimal hole. If it had not smashed so much bone I would really be concerned about it not opening up.

Seems like the 280 might need something like a .358WSM or .358STA to make it shine.

That's exactly the sort of cartridge the 280 A-Frame was made for. I've shot it in the .358 Norma and .358 STA and they give it enough oomph to open easily. The slow twist of the typical Whelen doesn't help it open up, either.

The beuaty of the whelen is it doesn't push bullets fast enough to really tax them, and it's enough gun to get the job done. Pick a 225 or 250 gr bullet, work up a load with RL15, Varget or another suitable powder and put the pill where it needs to go.

I'm currently running 225 sierras in my short whelen (350 rem mag) because my load work was complete with one range session. One of these days I'll work up a load with the 250 hornadies and a-frames on the shelf.

I have two Whelens. A Remington 7600 and a custom mauser. I prefer the 250 grain bullets. I shoot 250 Hornady round nose bullets from my 7600 using RL 15. My mauser loves Speer Hot Core and Nosler partitions also with RL 15. The whelen is my favorite big game cartridge to hunt with. I have killed bear and piles of deer with mine.

Ha ha oh just a place I found while out meeting a friend for lunch recently...

The bullets I like for my Whelan are the 225gn accubonds and the 225 gn woodleigh. The accubonds are loaded with noslers load of 60.5 gn of Varget chronoed at 2,850 out of my Stevens 200 converted to 35Whelan with a 25 inch barrel. The woodleigh chronoed 2950 with 64grains of cfe223. Great powder for the Whelan (check out load from a disc).
Speer list 64 gn cfe223 with the 250 gn hotcore. Tried that at a chronoed 2,700 fps, now that gets your attention , a bit to much attention for me so I'll stick with the 225 grains.
Wish I could work out how to post a photo I would show you what an accubond looks like after penetrating over five foot of kudu front to rear and a woodleigh looks like after smashing both shoulders of a Hartman zebra. Neither went far 10 to 15 yards and fell over.
Great caliber for all Namibian plains game.

For many years I used 225gr. Sierra Game Kings over IMR 4064 as my deer load in my Whelen, last year I tried a Ken Waters load that featured a 200gr. Hornady Inter-lok RN over IMR 4064. Accuracy was outstanding and a whitetail taken last year with a quartering shot @ 100 yds. produced a perfectly mushroomed bullet that retained 66% of its original weight. This load is now my go to load in my .35 Whelen.

If I was only shooting deer and pigs, I would use the 180 TTSX

I have been using the 225 gn Sierras over Imr4064 because they shoot best of the bullets I have loaded. The only one I have caught in a deer was a buck I called up and shot straight on in the chest. It was a perfect mushroom under the skin in a ham. They don't do as much meat damage as faster smaller bullets. There are other bullets I have yet to try. But these are very accurate and work for me. I have killed a bunch of deer with them.