30-06 (Remington 700 LH)

168g Barnes TSX

55.5g IMR 4350

1. 2717 fps
2. 2717 fps
3. 2742 fps

.254" clean barrel, and cold bore.

56g IMR 4350

1. 2769 fps
2. 2757 fps
3. 2762 fps

.929" warm barrel, no cleaning from the first three shots.

56.5g IMR 4350

1. 2802 fps
2. 2784 fps
3. 2783 fps

.562" hot barrel, no cleaning from the first six shots.

57g IMR 4350

1. 2827 fps
2. 2806 fps
3. 2839 fps

1.621" really hot barrel, no cleaning.

i noticed three things, as the barrel heats up, the groups gravitate towards the left a bit, the gun shoots like crap with a hot barrel, and using old brass is not a recommendation. I dont know how many firings were on these cases, and i know that they went from one rifle to another, so that may have had something to do with it, but i was getting case head splits, and separations with most shots. the primers were looking fine, except on one case, but the cases were done for.

Winchester cases, Federal LR match primers, and IMR 4350. i think i want to go with the first load, but, i like the velocity of the third load better. maybe i need to load up some new brass and try again?

What I think about all of that is you didn't run a very good test, especially in shooting the barrel when it was really hot.

While I'm not one who believes in allowing the barrel to cool down completely between shots, I generally don't just keep shooting groups while the barrel gets hotter. Even if the barrel doesn't "walk" as it heats up, the air waves off the barrel can affect accurate aiming.

What I think you should do, based on my previous experience with a bunch of .30-06's, is load up some good brass with the 168's and 57 grains of IMR4350. Then shoot some 3-shot groups, allowing the barrel to cool down competely between the groups. My bet is that the 57-grain load will shoot very well.

In fact the rifle may shoot even better with around 58 grains of powder. An awful lot of .30-06's shoot extremely well with 58-58.5 grains of IMR4350 and a 165-168 grain bullet.

Ok, i can roll with that.

I loaded up some new brass and shot it today, there doesnt appear to be any pressure signs, but i will try to get some pictures up for you. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but i was in a slight rush when i ran that test. I am hoping i can get some time and actually go to the range. That way i can allow the rifle to cool properly, and i can clean it between strings.

I will try and get a few loaded with 57.5 grs, 58 grs, and 58.5 grs. I hope to see the same level of accuracy that i saw with the 55.5 grs load.

I will let you know how it pans out, hopefully i can get to the range this weekend and try it out. A real rest, and a bench to shoot from instead of shooting off the roof of the car...

I wouldn't clean it between strings. Most rifle barrels need at least a couple of "fouling" shots before they start shooting well again, and some need 10-12 rounds.

Did you clean it before the range session you described?

Cleaning a barrel before it truly looses precision is akin to wiping before you even sit on the toilet.......

My precision AR's/M4's go hundreds if not a couple thousand rounds between barrel cleanings and they still hit the same targets they hit when they have 20 rounds through them. My worst 308 will go at least several hundred before losing measurable accuracy/precision. The 243's, 7mm mags, and 300 mags will all go at least 100 rounds before noticeable degradation occurs.


Shoot until the groups have truly opened up and then clean. Even then I do not clean to bare metal. Just a few swipes with any bore cleaner just to get the powder fouling and gunk out.

Ok, i wont clean it, but yes i did clean it after i last shot it. FWIW, when i say i cleaned it, i simply run a patch down the barrel with some Butch's Bore shine on it, then run clean patches until they come out clean. No brushing unless it gets really fouled.

I loaded up three rounds each of 57,57.5,58,58.5,and 59 grains of IMR 4350. I just hope they dont start blowing cases... If they do, i will just stop, and go back to the 55.5 grain load that shot so well at 2720 fps.

What will 2800 fps do that 2700 won't?

1)Get there immeasurably faster
2)Make you feel more confident in your stand that the bullet won't bounce off that deer
C)Allow you braggin' rights somewhere that "Mine's faster"

Not necessarily in that order

KC

ensure proper bullet expansion at longer ranges. i am simply trying to get the bullet to where all of the books say it should be. most of my load manuals say that 57+ grains of IMR 4350 can be used, but that has not been my experience with that powder.

.30-06 Remington 700s usually like 180 grain bullets....mine really likes them.

My go to load for the 30/06 is a 165-168gr bullet usually 10-20 thousants off the lands, fed 210m or WLR, 58.5-58.8grs of IMR-4350, used all manufacturers of brass over the years. I own eight or nine 30/06s and have loaded for at least 20 others and have never had a problem with that load. Always start with new brass when working up a load. If you don't know the history of the brass, don't use it.Rick.

ricksmith,

That's been exactly my experience, also with a lot of .30-06's. In fact a few years ago I decided to get the 58.5 IMR4350 load tested in a professional lab.

For the test I used the 165-grain Nosler Partition, since the Partition tends to create a little more pressure than average. I also used the Federal 215 magnum primer, instead of a standard primer, for the same reason.

The average pressure turned out to be well under the maximum SAAMI standard of 60,000 psi, around 58,500 as I recall. (It's in my notes somewhere.) The pressures didn't vary much either, around 2500 psi from high to low.

I would be very surprised if a 58.5 grains charge resulted in excessive pressure even in a tight-chambered custom barrel with the 168-grain Barnes TSX, since TSX's tend to produce less pressure than most bullets.

well I guess we will find out tomorrow, huh John?

I'll be be very interested in the results!

John, do you think that it is possible that i am in some sort of "middle ground" type of load here where there is no enough pressure to seal the chamber, and that it may be causing some issues?

or is it possible that maybe i have a hot batch of powder here that is causing too much pressure with a smaller load? but if that was the case, shouldnt there be some velocity changes with the increase in pressure?

You're getting absolutely normal velocities for the powder charges and bullet. My guess is that the old brass is causing problems.

Can one substitute Hodgdon 4350 at an equal weight for this load?

Yeah, in fact I use H4350 for this load anymore. Velocities will be slightly different but not much, and certainly no different than normal lot-to--lot variations. On average, H4350 is usually a little slower than IMR4350.

John, i just took a 168 TSX bullet and dropped it into the chamber. i tapped it with the cleaning rod to make it stay. then i put on a flat nosed bore sized jag and slowly lowered it into the muzzle. I marked that spot on the cleaning rod with a marker. Then i tapped the bullet out and inserted the bolt and closed it. I took the same jag and rod and lowered it into the muzzle until i contacted the bolt face. I then marked this spot with a marker. I pulled it out and it measures 3.475". So, maybe i need to seat them out further? I have more magazine space to work with...?

I have been seating them to 3.345"

Ok, here is what i got from the range today.

i fired the 59 grain load second.

the 57 grain second loading Winchester brass cracked at the case head. These were new cases, loaded and fired with 57 grains of IMR 4350 and a 168 TSX with Federal LR match primers. I got sticky bolt lift, and pancaked primers on two of the three shots. All three cases split.

I switched to the 59 grain load figuring that i was going to blow a case on the first shot. To my surprise, the bolt lift was normal, and i had no issues getting the cases out of the chamber. The primers looked normal, and there was no shiny ring around the case head like there was with the 57 grain load. the velocity averaged 2915 fps.

The 58.5 grain load shot about the same as far as the brass and such looked, but the group opened up some. I will measure the groups tomorrow and post up the results. That 59 grain load shot VERY well. I am guessing around 1/4" for three shots.

Did you by any chance resize the new Winchester cases before you loaded them?

Yes Sir i did. I did it to round out the necks mostly. They came a little distorted and i wanted to get them even again. Is that a bad thing? I hope not, but i didnt want to gouge the bullets when i seated them.

You may have the sizer screwed to far down creating a headspace issue would be my guess but I'm sure John will get it figured out.

Rounding out the necks is one thing, but if you full-length sized the new cases you probably shortened them slightly, due to your die being set improperly, as 28lx hinted. That's why you're getting case-head cracks.

Full-length dies should be set so there's a tiny bit if resistance when you close the action. If you just screw 'em down until the die firmly contacts the shell-holder, many dies will size cases so there's a slight amount of excess headspace. When the round goes off the case stretches enough to crack or even totally separate--which is exactly what you've been seeing.

A lot of handloaders believe this cracking is due to excess pressure, but in bolt actions it isn't. Instead it means the cases have been sized too short.

There are several ways to set a full-length die, some even involving buying new measuring tools--and many handloaders love to buy new tools. But it can also be done by screwing the die down so it contacts the shell-holder, then backing it off half a turn. Resize a FIRED case that isn't cracked, then try it in your rifle's chamber. Chances are it won't fit, or will chamber hard. Screw the die in SLIGHTLY, then size the case again, and see if it fits the chamber. Keep repeating this as necessary, until the case will chamber with a very slight amount of resistance. Reset the lock ring on the die in that position, and your problem with cracked cases and head separations will go away.

If you want to round-out dinged necks on new brass, just run the neck over the expander ball. There's no need to full-length size the case. That was done at the factory.

Ok, i should mention that the dies are set properly. They dont touch the shellholder. The only resistance I got on the stroke of the ram was when the case hit the expander ball.

I will try adjusting the die until i get the slight resistance I need to make sure it is a tight fit in the chamber rather than an easy fit.

Thanks John!

Another thought on this is what type seater die are you using? If you are using a standard seater that comes with the die set it is possible that a crimp is being placed on the case mouths. Also at this point in your loading career I wouldn't use the marking of a cleaning rod with bullet in chamber then measuring to the bolt face as a way to determine the max bullet length. Think Barnes recommends their bullets be seated at 50 thousants off the lands to start and go shorter from that, not longer.Rick.

I use an RCBS basic seater die.

I dont have it adjusted down to crimp. I set it a long time ago and have never adjusted anything but the seating height adjustment. I did get the loaded rounds i did not fire out and measure them at the neck. they did not move more than .0002" from one to the next, and end to end on the neck. I believe that means that there is no crimping going on. I could be wrong.

Ok, the group sizes went as follows...

57 grains IMR 4350, Fed. LR match primer, W-W cases, second loading...

1. 2827 fps (sticky bolt lift, split case head)
2. 2806 fps (sticky bolt lift, pancaked primer, split case head)
3. 2839 fps (shiny line around case head)

2824 fps Ave. .782" group.

I did not fire the other brass loaded to 57.5 grains after splitting two of three rounds loaded with less powder than the ones i had left to fire.

58 grains of IMR 4350, Fed. LR match primer, new W-W cases

1. 2862 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)
2. 2869 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)
3. 2861 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)

2864 fps Ave. .649" group.

58.5 grains of IMR 4350, Fed. Lr match primer, new W-W cases

1. 2885 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)
2. 2889 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)
3. 2870 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)

2881 fps Ave. .773" group.

59 grains of IMR 4350, Fed. LR match primer, new W-W cases

1. 2915 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)
2. 2915 fps (no bolt issues, case and primer look fine)
3. Error... The wind blew right as i was firing and moved the chronograph...

2915 fps Ave. .320" group.

John, after taking several of the fired cases and trying what you suggested, i found that even after adjusting the die out two full turns, and only hitting the neck on the case about 2/3 of the way down, the FIRED cases still chamber just as smoothly as new brass.

What do you make of that? I heard tell that it takes a firing or two sometimes to make brass fit a chamber, but i dont know what i should do with my dies in the mean time. adjust them down so the whole neck is resized, or just leave them where they are?

That's what happens when none of the body of the case is sized, which is exactly what happens when the sizing die is backed way off--as in 2 turns. Basically, you are only neck-sizing the cases.

When the sizing die is backed off only 1/2 turn (which is what I suggested, not 2 turns) then the case body is partially sized. This often squeezes the shoulder a little further forward, the reason you'll feel resistance when a slightly-sized case is chambered.

Often partial sizing, such as turning the sizing die 2 turns up, results in fine accuracy, and prevent the case separations you experienced. But if you fire the cases several times they'll resist chambering, and you'll need to full-length size them--correctly.

Ok John, i failed to mention in my above post that i did 6 different cases, all fired in the Remington's chamber, starting with 1/4 turn, and moving my way up to 2 full turns out.

In all of the cases i tried in the chamber, none of them gave me any resistance.

With this knowledge, where would you suggest i set my dies?

You might just leave the die backed off two turns for now, and see how the rifle shoots.

Right. I will give it a shot and see how it works from there.

Just a thought you might try. Use some unfired brass, don't size, a moderate load of a powder of your choice, use a cheap bullet if you have one, and seat it into the lands. Just try three cases and then reload them with one of your test loads. This will fireform your brass to your chamber. After having head separations on second loading, I am thinking the chamber is a bit long, and the first firing is stretching too much. Having the bullet in the lands will keep the case head against the bolt face and reduce the stretching. Worth a try.

Jeff, i will try that too and see what happens.

I noticed that the 59 grain load was leaving me with nice brass, and the 58, and 58.5 grain loads did as well, but the milder load of 57 grains was the one splitting the new brass after two shots.

Kinda weird, keep us informed.