First of all, I'm very thankful those who spoke on his behalf and knew him well as well as those who brought sane perspective to earning a living and what that means.

My question is this...there was almost as much complaining about T/C as there was about LW. Why is that? I can see how their new switch barrel rifle isn't well received but what is so bad about the Encores and Contenders? I have been a Contender lover for several decades and the only complaint I really have is that there is no end to the barrels I want.

It's not a Rem 700 in a McMillan ( insert their favorite stock here ).

I want a Contender.

Be easier to travel with. Have a 12 gauge, 30-06, .50 caliber muzzle loader, and a .223 all in one case.

No 30-06 on the Contender, have to go to the Encore for that. Similarly, TC quit making muzzleloading barrels for Contenders. They can be had used or custom, but not 'factory direct'. FWIW...

if you don't mine a single shot, then the Encore/Contender is fine.

It's even worse if it doesn't have a Leupold.

This...

My issue is all they do is pimp their guns out to everyone/anyone on 99% of the TV shows, same with Mathews and their bows.

I could care less what someone else uses, but when I see companies trying to cram their product down your throat through flooding the advertising market I'm less inclined to buy their product, versus wanting to buy something and supporting more advertising.

I essentially quit watching the white tail shows and now the new thing "hog hunting shows". Love both sports, but it gets old watching them shoot the same thing time after time.

I think it's because they don't twist their .22-250 barrels properly.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really like the way they look...especially in handgun form or the shorter barreled carbines...especially the original Contender.

my only issue with the T/C break-action single shots is that they seem to be in general more fussy about accuracy than a bolt action rifle. given the choice between an ICON and say a pro-hunter in something like a .308, I'll take the ICON every day. With the action bedding, good trigger, etc., it's just more likely to shoot accurately and consistently OOTB. Although there definitely seem to be some gunsmiths out there than can tune up an Encore to be a tackdriver.

Yep that was my first guess too.

I get that they're ugly but I shoot Savages and don't care for the pot/kettle thing.

As for the fact that they buy advertising, I personally haven't seen much point in watching those shows at all. Just me I know, but I hate the tv and would rather DO IT... hence no spectator sports... and I'm a hard core free market guy and will buy what works, and don't care how much money a company wastes advertising on shows I don't watch...

To each his own and for his own reasons.

P D -

I have had # 1s and don't object to single shots.

The Contenders just don't fit my hand, it's awkard for me.

I REALLY object to the LOOKS of an Encore. Seriously, to me, it looks like they put a 2 X 6 on it for a stock and then thot,....

Oh! we can't grip it and then CUT the notch for a 'pistol grip'.

That's my kick!

I am just wondering who do you think pays for the airtime for those shows???

Ya, some of the rifle stocks DO look awkward! I thought the original carbine Contender stocks looked very nice but the stocks that really shine, IMHO, are the custome thumbhole stocks. On a bolt gun I don't like them but to me, they are perfect on a Contender or Encore. I also think the long barrels look out of whack on them but the original 21" tubes are pretty sweet.

I shoot Savages mostly .Now with that said I don't like any company take over on guns look at what Rem.did to Marlins an H&R junk now same with TC .They been there a while now .Tarus an Rossie about the only ones that can get this right . You can get any one to shoot an talk about guns But a group of hunters will sell more for u Just put your product out there if it great like Savage it will sell . U gun manfactures send hunters your guns let us evaluerate it

Contenders are well thought out, trim, minimalist, break action carbines that allow easy experimentation with both rimfire and centerfire cartridges, are a joy to use in the field, and can fill a niche for a lot of rifle loonies.

Encores are mass marketed, ugly, abortions.


Travis

Very well stated.


Travis

"It's five a clock somewhere"........

Nailed it.

Agree with this...mostly. I think the Encore handguns are just fine. The Contender can't handle rounds like the .260, 7-08, etc. Where they lost me was what they do with the Encore rifles. If I want a single shot .300 or .375 or even a 25-06 I'm gonna go with a Ruger #1. They do look like sick aberrations with barrels that are out of balance with the rest of the rifle. Now, an Encore 12 gauge slug barrel seems like a good idea for our short-range weapon seasons here in ID along the river bottoms.

I'd put my money toward an 870 long before I put it toward an Encore.



Travis

I have an Encore mainly for the muzzleloader barrel. The centerfire barrels shot OK, but not as good as most of my bolt actions.

The Encore action determines the stock shape as a compromise to be a rifle or a pistol. The rifle stock is therefore awkward, and I found uncomfortable to shoot in calibers .30-06 and larger.

Also, for the price of additional Encore barrels, it's not that great a stretch to buy an additional used bolt action rifle. So, the "one gun to chase everything with" concept does not work for me. Maybe if you live in a jurisdiction where it's hard to buy a rifle, it might make sense.

There's a reason magazine rifles were considered an improvement.

I think most have an issue with the fact that nearly every TV show or video is sponsored by TC so that is ALL the "hunters" use. I do like a TC muzzle loader, but I don't know anyone the hunts with a TC rifle or the Encore with a rifle barrel on a regular basis. Spare gun...yes.

It's one thing if the guys on the tube are buying the guns and think they're great, but they're given the guns to use for the show.

I used to fish walleye tournaments. I use Ranger boats. I bought it. I bought it because it's the best boat for what I use it for. I wasn't sponsored by Ranger like many are and didn't switch brands at the drop of a hat because someone gave me $30 more to use their boat.

Kinda the same deal.

Why would you use inferior products? Leupold is the best scope for the money IMO, and a lot of others opinions as well.

and for the money they draw for Encores, you'd have the bad-assiest 870 in the valley.

Plus you could tell chicks to check out your big black tube.


Travis

I have deliberately stayed out of this as I have little experience with the Encore. A bud has one, and while I do not like the look of the buttstock as compared to the #1, I think it looks OK. I keep wondering if anyone around here has experience with the thumbhole version.

That said, I think they are neat guns that are very capable of excellent hunting accuracy. Nope, not gonna see this design type on the bench rest line, but that was never the intent. The plan was to be able to fit the latest and the greatest cartridge into an interchangeable platform. Nice as the Contender is, it simply cannot do this. Encore not only does it, they do it very-very well, and I for one am thinking seriously about getting one.

"but I don't know anyone the hunts with a TC rifle or the Encore with a rifle barrel on a regular basis".

There are a few of us out here.

I bought an Icon in 243W in January of this year, and have been very satisfied with it. On it's maiden voyage to the range, I loaded 21 rounds, in groups of 3, using 55gr Nosler BT, 75gr Hornaday Vmax and 80gr Barnes TTSX. 5 of the seven groups were sub-MOA, smallest was .7 and the over-MOA were 1.2" and 1.4".

For your next rifle purchase, take a look at the Icon or Venture.

I have a 12 ga turkey barrel I use on an Encore. I love it...accurate and light which is nice for running and gunning...kicks like a mule though.

I've used a couple as muzzleloaders and killed a lot of deer with them. Played with a few centerfire barrels as well, but didn't hunt much with them....I prefer bolt actions.

I don't watch TV so I'm not forced to be picky concerning the TC rifles....it must be really rough having to hate a rifle because you see folks using them on TV ....that TV is some opinion making stuff!

I have a Custom Encore in 6.5X55 that will shoot with the best bolt actions made.They are very easy to accurize.I also have a 223 barrel that wreaks havoc on Prairie Rats.It also shoots 1/2" and better.I have one Encore as a dedicated Muzzle loader that is the most accurate one I have.I think that most negative comments are made by people with little or no experience using them or do not know how to make them shoot .To me function beats appearance any day.Huntz

While not pretty my Encore is accurate and functional. It's a tool and I use it as such. Thanks to TC for sponsoring shows that support our interest. Funnier yet is those that love Savage rifles , now talk about ugly. But they do shoot ,however you won't find one in my safe.

By whom, and for what reason?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I have a Contender carbine (16.5") .223. I bought it because it seemed to be handy. I do not like the stock. To me, it seems like one kind of has to "wear the stock" rather than use it. A thumb hole would not help, but IMHO, would slow down operating the hammer. Mine is fairly accurate, but I keep stealing the good scopes off it for some other use. I think it is now wearing a 30 year old El Paso Weaver. Plenty good for stuff in the pastures that need shooting. jack

Custer,for one.
Patton,for another.

They would be ok for about $250.

With a $300.00 rebate.

Now that was funny. Good answer.

Historically that is correct, Custer ran rampant through the Civil War cutting Confederate troops to ribbons with a Spencer repeater. The little Bighorn was another story, Indian fighting is different and a single shot was deemed better at the time by the Army...

I 'suppose' he was serious BUT....

I'd ask him, Would he prefer to go to war with a 'Single Shot'?

So EVERYONE in battle or going to war....

NOT TO MENTION the vast majority of hunters AND the bigger or more dangerous the game....I suppose we could GUESS.

I have shot more than once at deer BUT the vast majority of time, just once. It is comforting to KNOW there is a second shot READY & WAITING.

I have had single shots SO I know the argument FOR ss weapons.

I like my encore, got a turkey barrel, .25-06 AI barrel and a ML barrel. They all work well. The gun is so frickin ugly I like its looks.....for those who don't like to see them on the shows TC is paying for I have a real simple solution: give up sitting on the couch watching animal snuff-flic informercials and go out and do something real with your time. We don't have TV in the house, we have two young boys we'd rather not have exposed to all the chit that passes for entertainment in today's society and the wife and I don't have the time to sit around with our mouths hanging open and our brains in neutral. I got a young retriever that needs work, chickens, horses, boats, guns...all kinds of things better to spend my time on than television.. just my $.02

Why is that?

THERE WAS A HUGE AND WIDESPREAD STORM FRONT BUILDING POWER AS IT MOVED ACROSS THE COUNTRY DURING THE TIME OF THAT THREAD.

Barometer change caused it, I think

To answer the original question, I have had a bee in my bonnet for quite some time over the over-exposure of the TC Encore on TV. For one thing, it ain't particularly my taste in rifle. For another, it encourages this whole "one-shot-one-kill" idea in the extreme.

Now, mind you, I'm all for putting them down with one shot. Having said that, I always try to be ready for a second, or even a third shot if the situation arises. You would think that 1-s-1-k would be a humane way to go, but in reality it makes a lot of folks expect the animal to go down. They are not ready for the contingencies and the animal ends up suffering.

My feeling is that a lot of goobers see guys on TV shoot with a single-shot rifle and go out expecting the animal to die with only one shot, no matter what the reality is.

The most extreme example I can give of this is a response that I got a couple of years ago to a question regarding follow-up shots. Some fellow on a Kentucky hunting forum said that if he shot and the deer did not go down immediately, he would just figure it was time to give up hunting. I guess that's one way to get out of following a blood trail.

I wouldn't own a TC as a gift, but that is all we may have to shoot if Obama is re-elected.

Right on!

Couple or three decades ago, a former friend gushingly volunteered that hunting with a single-shot was "more sporting" than hunting with a repeater. I'd heard that silly rationale before, and though I love single-shots as much as he does, I told him not to try to sell me that garbage.

"Nobody owes it to an animal to kill it � unless you've pushed a bullet or an arrow into it and it doesn't die right away. Then you owe it to that animal to kill it as quickly as possible."

For years, I idolized a famous big-game hunter whom we don't hear anything about these days (appropriately). Had and cherished several of his books. Then I went (1955, 1956) to one of his lectures where he showed and narrated movies of his hunts. All was good � better than good � until he came to his leopard hunt.

He'd tethered a goat to a tree as bait for a leopard. He waited in a blind, Weatherby ready. A leopard came slinking to the tethered goat, which was making the expected motions and sounds of abject terror. Then the Mighty Hunter boasted of his cleverness.

He intentionally gut-shot the leopard to see what it'd do. As a south Alabama fox-hunter so eloquently put it later, "quicker'n seven gods can skin a minute," the leopard savaged the goat. The Mighty Hunter thought that that was funny. Let it go on for a while. Let the leopard kill the goat before he shot the leopard dead.

I didn't think that that was either clever or funny. I still don't. Threw his books away and never bought another � certainly not one of the signed copies that he was peddling at the lecture hall.

The Goat didn't think it was funny either

Saw the same thing a couple of other times later, too.

At a SHOT Show several years ago, a manufacturer of (IIRC) hunters' scents was showing a videotape of a similar hunt. I watched for a while, until the tape came to a similar event, and The Mighty Hunter � like the first one � made light of what he'd done.

The other was a famous bowhunter � not Fred Bear or Chuck Adams � who did the same thing with an elephant. Wouldn't let his professional hunter administer a coup de gr�ce when the elephant stumbled away and finally fell. The video was more important, you see, and the elephant wasn't going to go anywhere.

Dr. Howell -

Thanks for your input & position.

I feel those were D I S G U S T I N G practices and so UNETHICAL.

I bought an Encore MZL a year or so after they first came out. It has been a solid performer and I have been very pleased with it to date.

I picked up a 22-250 and 444 barrel for it and have used them both for hunting. Both barrels shoot well but after a couple of seasons, the novelty wore off so the encore stays as a MZL. I am happy with this but the concept did work as advertised. I doubt I will buy another barrel for it but it scratched the itchy phase for me.


With the all of the above stated, it surprises me that I have never seen another person hunting with an Encore in a rifle configuration. Two friends bought them with as MZL's and still shoot them but beyond that, I have not seen another outside of a gun store. I hunt with a lot of different people in many places so it really does surprise me that I have not run across one elsewhere with all of the endorsements that we see for them. I see numerous #1's, H&Rs, CVAs, and even a couple of European single shots in hunting camps but no TCs. Maybe they are more popular in other areas but they are very reclusive in the south.

I am going to have to disagree with you a bit here. I think having a single shot forces a hunter to pick his shots more and be more cautious.

I hunt with an Encore pistol in .30/06 as my primary hunting weapon. I have to slow down & pick my shots. More people do that and there would be more one shot kills. Too many people (notice I did not say all) simply pray & spray.

I take it you aren't willing to say who the big game hunter in question was? I'm just wondering because I have Wally Taber books and he was a Weatherby guy and an African hunter in the 50's and a big hunter/lecturer. Is he the guy?

If I had to gun hunt with an Encore I'd take up bow hunting.

As someone once told me, if you are going to carry more than one cartridge in the field with you they might as well be in a magazine.

Makes sense to me.

There's a reason God gave us repeaters.

� You take it right. If I were gonna say, I'd've said.
� No, it wasn't Wally Taber.
� I knew Wally and could but won't tell you a thing or two (far less despicable) that you wouldn't like.
Enjoy his books.

Sir Ken:

Truly you are a CLASS act.

Salute!!

Thanks, but I haven't been knighted.

Consider benighted.

+1...If a guy's watching so much TV they got their panties in a wad over who's paying for it they're spending way too much time on the couch. Besides TV only exists to sell advertising. No advertising, no hunting show.

The *&^%$#@! deterioration in my physical condition condemns me to my recliner and solo hours of TV and computer, yet I'm not so far gone that I have no alternative but to watch hunting shows. If there's nothing on that I want to watch, there's a very convenient OFF button on my remote.

Watching any sport, on-scene or on live or recorded TV, is about as alluring as watching somebody else copulating � eons more fun to do than to watch.

Just sitting (which is my only physical option) and remembering, thinking, or napping is infinitely more enjoyable and rewarding than watching somebody else perpetrating an ersatz "hunt."

Just MHO �

I alway admire a guy who is not bored in his own head. Course, if ya get too bored, your brain falls out.

....your ability to turn a phrase and masterful wordsmithing are as sharp as ever.....they're gems to us out here in cyber space, Ken!!

I often carry an AR in the field. On deer I have yet to fire more than one round( pigs are another story but there are always multiple targets there)

Actually it forces YOU to be more careful. Having a single shot does necessarily force folks who are clueless or inexperienced to be careful.

My opinion is that having a quick second shot ready is essential for ethical hunting. Most times I hunt the deer is down before I can rack another in, but I still go through the drill and reload, reacquire, and make the determination whether to shoot again with the crosshairs on the animal.

Now, that's me, my prejudice, my opinion. It comes from a couple of things. First and foremost was the advice my old-fart hunting buddies gave me when I started hunting deer. I can still remember old John ( he'd been in the Bulge) telling me, "You shoot, and you keep shooting until your sure he'd dead." I remember how the Marlboro started twitching in his hand. John obviously had issues on the subject, but I took him at his word. From there, it morphed into a general desire to put the animal down and keep it down. If one didn't do it, I was perfectly happy to put in another.

JJHack was another influence. I first ran into him on the old AllOutdoors.com. JJHack talks about Golfer's Syndrome: a PH term for a guy who shoots once and then puts down his rifle and watches, expecting the game to go down. That's the sort of thing I don't want telegraphed to the unknowing masses, and that is the sort of thing a single-shot rifle can encourage in inexperienced hands.

Your hands? Joe, with the hardware you described and the way you write about using it, you are the least of my worries.


Ken, as always, I truly appreciate your appreciation.

I hunt with a single-shot specialty handgun the majority of the time.
First, I don't think it inspires a 1-shot-one-kill attitude to an extreme to where one just expects the animal to go down.
Everyone should reload their weapon whatever the type ASAP just in case something goes wrong. They are a whole lot faster to reload than a Black Powder rig and possible a second shot with a bow.
Second, I very rarely need another shot.
Third, when I do, I can get off my second shot fairly quick.
I would rather hunt with an experienced person using a single-shot, than some inexperienced hunter who is relying on multiple shots (regardless of the action) or magnum cartridge.
You cannot buy competence.
Let me get prone or even from a good sitting position with one of my specialty handguns and I do not feel disadvantaged to the majority of rifle hunters out there on first shot connections to distances that many rifle hunters are not comfortable with.
I have met Larry and he was a nice gentleman to speak with.

Sir Ken

I'm not sucking up...just expressing my respect.

It hurts me deeply to hear of your LIMITATIONS. Someone once told me, " if you live long enough...bad things happen to you."

I'm VERY GLAD you're still with us but saddened with & for you. I remember well reading and following you in print when I was just getting started handloading.

Not for sure, but I remember your entries in 1 or more gun mags. Either Petersen's Hunting or Shooting Times. Yep I've known of you for a long time and I feel privileged to be able to correspond w/you.

Jerry