The question I have is when did all the rifles and shooters become so accurate that they all shoot 1/2" groups. I have hunting rifles that on a good day will shoot 1/2" but I don't think I am capable of doing it all the time. Everytime I look at an ad for a cutom or a factory it seems that the magic number is 1/2" where it used to be 1 moa. Did the barrels and componets get that much better in the last 5 years or am I missing something.

....the classified's are loaded with 1/2 inch guns. I guess 1/4 inch is the new standard.

Al Gore invented the internet and the rest is history, not only does everyone have a 1/2" gun but they will shoot it ALL DAY LONG.



Now that's some impressive chitt right there.

1/2 inch isn't all that hard. I have a lot of rifles that do 1/2 inch all day long. The problem I run into is when I move the targets from 25 yards to 100 yards the groups get much bigger.

Actually gunsmithing methods, barrels and bullets have improved, though I'd say it's the gunsmithing methods that have improved the most. I'd also say it's been that way for over 10 years now.

But you do hit the nail on the head, not all shooters are capable of 1/2" accuracy day in, day out, especially when you add a bit of wind. I don't think anyone is going to claim a gun will shoot 1/2" for all loads and in all conditions.

I'm a bit dishartened when a gun isn't capable of 3 shot 1/2" group at 100yds at it's best. Such guns will shoot moa day in, day out, if the nut behind the but is up to the task.

1/2" group all day long? I have no idea I normally don't shoot at paper all day long with a rifle. Once I find a load that is acceptable for hunting I stop shooting at paper and move onto other stuff with it.

I have several rifles capable of 1/2" groups. A .220 Swift has never shot over 1" for 10 shots, and regularly puts 3 into 1/2" and less. Two .257Rs are sub 1/2" capable. The only true sub 1/2" rifle I have is a Savage 10 FCP-K .308, which has always shot 1/2" and less with 155 SMKs and 168 A-max loads. Several other rifles have shot into 1/2", on occasion, but those occasions don't occur that often. That said, my deer rifles are all sub-minute-of-vital-zone accurate, and the groundhog rifles are good to 300yds, after which my skill level becomes an issue.

If i can get a hunting gun to shoot 1/2in. to 1in. with the load i want consistently i feel like i got a real winner. I've often wondered if it's just me, or my guns, or internet BS. Seems like i've got some that will, but truly most just won't. That's not to say they aren't good hunting guns. One of my favorites is my M-7 in 260 Rem., 1 1/4in. most times, but just kills chit.

Guy

A fly fishing author many years ago wrote, "the best fishing is done in print". I have no doubt the same applies in spades to shooting claims on the internet

From what I have right now:

7 out of 10 will not shoot a 1/2" group at 100 yds.
2 will consistently do 1/2" groups.
1 will occasionally do a 1/2" group.

mine have come and gone but the rifles i hang onto will shoot 1/2" to 3/4" every time out. i reload for each of them and i pay a lot of attention to my bench technique and i properly mount a quality scope and adjust the trigger and use bags to shoot off of.

i don't understand why people doubt reports like this. rifles are capable of it more often than not, if the shooter is.

i am no benchrest champion, it's a hobby and lots of people are better shots than i am. but to act like 1/2" is some holy grail...JB himself has brought up several times that he has a rem700 .223 that is an honest 1/4" rifle. couldn't mine or yours be only HALF that good? lol

Factory Ruger 350 rem mag allweather, nothing done to bed the Tupperware stock or lightening to the heavy trigger and topped with a 2.5x scope. I�d put 10 rds of factory fodder through it first time out which shot ~3� and I was not too happy with that. My first attempt at handloads through the gun, groups 1 and 3. Group 2 was a bit over an inch.




For me this has been pretty typical for factory rifles. They won�t shoot everything into �� or every time, but mechanically they are typically capable of such accuracy. I�d be down right disappointed if a custom rifle wasn�t capable of shooting at least this well. I can�t stand a finicky rifle or inaccurate rifle so have no problem getting rid of one that isn�t up to snuff.

TFF!

Half inch is hard. I have at least three rifles that will do it, as long as EYE am on my game...which isn't that often. But when I'm in the groove -- it never fails to amaze me how important the shooter is to how the gun does, even rested on a bench.

Slammer,
That's my problem too!
Really though, how sad it is that SOOOO many have to say they shoot 1/2" groups. Every time I go to the range with someone that say's "this rifle shoots 1/2" all day long", it always turns out to be just not on the day we shoot.
I have owned 4 Kimbers, have seen at least another 10 shot at the range and they all shot 2-5" groups @ 100 yards. Yet several of the owners told me they shoot sub MOA (some even 1/2") with no problem.
I just don't get it, be honest.......

I've got 2 Colt Light Rifles that are 4/1" capable (not 1/4" capable). Does this count?

I disagree. Most rifles will not shoot 1/2". I shoot benchrest, long range, f-class, and hunt. I have sent many factory rifles packing because they wouldn't shoot under an inch. 1/2" is sloppy, gotta shoot in the teens to get my attention.

I won't say they,or I can do it everytime, all day long. But I have several rifles that will put 3 shots into 1/2" pretty consistently. I cannot remember the last time I fired 3 that went over 1" with these rifles. They are all hunting rifles, so I rarely shoot more than 3 at a time.





Just over 1/2 MOA, but at 200 yards

Half-inch hunting rifles became a lot more common when 3-shot groups became the norm.

I am much more impressed with rifles that will actually groups 1/2" for 5-shot groups at 100 yards, and even more impressed with 10-shot 3/4" groups.

I am even more impressed with how many 1/2" 3-shot groups are reported on the Internet by hunters who've never tested their 3-10x scopes for parallax, tested their handloads for bullet run-out, and never put out any sort of wind-flag when shooting.

mjbgalt,

I won't go so far as saying most rifles are capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yds, cause most of mine are not.

But to shoot a 1/2" group it takes a shooter AND a rifle AND a solid rest AND ammo that are all capable individually of 1/2" accuracy or better. If any one of the 4 won't do 1/2" - The combo won't.

The disbelievers, that have never shot a 1/2" group,
may never unless they figure out which of the 4 is THEIR problem!

Thank you, John. -Al

No kidding. You can't call it a 1/2" rifle unless you can post 5 5shot groups under 1/2" average. Even better, shoot a season of short range benchrest and see what it averages. Showing a target on the internet usually means the best group that rifle has ever shot.

I normally like to get lots of trigger time. It seems like the more trigger time the smaller the groups. As spring moves into summer, my crew sees noticably smaller groups from so much shooting.

A three shot group is quite adequate for me as shooting Rockchucks is somewhat slow anyhow. I have 6 rifles I shoot varmints with, 4 that are sub 1/2" shooters. So I believe it when shooters make claims of sub half inch groups. In fact, one particular day last fall, I shot my 20 TAC, 223 and 204 and all three grouped under an inch at 250 yards. I think that a very good gunsmith like Bob Green can turn out good shooting guns, as long as the barrels are excellent.

It is a lot of work developing loads, but the rewards are great. I think there are more guns that shoot that well, than there are shooters.

Good post John.. Spot on as far as I'm concerned..

I don't understand why guys question 1/2" accuracy at a 100 yards. I haven't had too much trouble getting that kind of accuracy out of most of my rifles once I found the ammo that it liked, and I don't even reload. I am a stickler for that kind of accuracy, though I know its not necessary. But it do add mucho confidence that the bullet will go where I want it to, close up and far away. I don't care about 5 shot or 10 shot groups because I have never fired more than 1 or 2 bullets at anything I've killed in the last 10 years with the exception of my boys first black bear, that was a bit of a rodeo!....grin

Perhaps it was Al Nyhus who posted this some time in the past.

A half-inch rifle is one that will put one shot into a different half-inch dot every time. I've yet to see a hunting weight sporter that will do so.

7 in .499
It's not necessary, but golly it is fun.

You might be surprised how many rifles/shooters won't/cant shoot 1/2" groups consistently. Furthermore, 3 shots don't tell you much. Start shooting 5 and 10 shot groups and get back to us...

The new Kimber .300 Savage did this yesterday with Nosler 150 Accubonds and Leupold 6x42. Excuse the scribble, I was trying to make it into a .5rifle, but once I got a handle on the ruler again it wasn't.

Anyway, is this a two inch rifle or sub moa rifle. One obviously go away from me, but thinking I'll just forget about it.



Then it did this with 130 Barnes TTSX.




200 Yards:





I could most certainly shoot a few .5s for three shots, but that wouldn't prove it was a .5 rifle. Then again, maybe it is, because I know I'm not a .5in shooter.

Most of my rifles will shoot half-inch 3 shot groups, if you discount the occasional "flyer" or two.

Wait, wait, wait....if you shoot two shots tight, and then push a third about 1" off, all you have to do is write the phrase "called flyer", and it still counts as a great group. Just check the classifieds.

What the [bleep] for? Like I said.....in the last 10 years I haven't shot anything I have killed more than once or twice, what the hell does a 10 shot string tell you in a hunting rifle? When was the last time you shot at anything even 5 times?

If you are measuring a guns precision, which happens to be the topic of this thread, then groups are the proof. I don't think that anyone is arguing that a good hunting rifle needs to be a 10 shot, .5 moa stick.

Maybe I cant read, but what I interpreted from the opening thread , was the OP questioning people selling HUNTING rifles that they claim will shoot 1/2" and insinuating that its an exaggeration. It was never brought up that 10 shot stringers are how you determine whether or not a rifle is a 1/2" rifle. If the [bleep] will put 3 shots into a 1/2" at 100 yards in succession without waiting for the barrel to cool,etc. Then its a 1/2" gun, furthermore I don't comprehend the difficulty in accepting that based on the rifles I've owned, hunted with and killed chit with. It aint rocket science. Maybe I am out of touch?????

Kimber Montana...Federal 165 gr TSX's 100 yards and 300 yards, no modifications to rifle. This rifle would do this all day every day if I did my part.

However, it takes more than a .5 shooter to put one in the right place when this is going on, and she was a lot closer than 100.



Or this, when you have nothing but your legs to lean on and time is running out.

I'd let both of 'em walk unless I had hungry kids at home, and mine are about grown.

Terry Cross has opined that a no-schit one moa rifle will win any tactical rifle match in the US, if the shooter is up to the task.

That second Deer is around 50 and you let it walk in Pa and you left a lot of meat in the woods on what is a fairly common opportunity.

The first while more difficult, deserves a kick in the ass if you don't put it on the ground.

Stand hunter?

Yeah, and an old SF medic, and current TCCC instructor (I have to get folks to be able to comprehend the concept of a tension pneumothorax) and a grad of SFAUC and SOTIC, and I'm currently shooting a pistol in the 80's on a Rogers Range. Nothing really impressive, but I have pulled a trigger or two.

No Portugese head shots for me.

My 22-250 is an honest 1/2" rifle. Rem SA with a Hart barrel. I have shot 4 into the teens a few times, just not all five. I have a Ruger boat paddle in 270 Win that will put 3 into 5/8-3/4, 5 into an inch. Yes I have shot a few 1/2 groups with it, but that doesn't make it a 1/2" gun in my book. Same with a 300 Wby, Vanguard sub-moa model. Shoots most stuff under an inch and a quarter. Never have gotten anywhere close to the test target though. I think that one was shot underground at 25 yards.

On the other hand, while pulling range duty, I have seen many people take one inch guns and make shotgun patterns with them while trying to sight in for deer season. Watched two older gentelmen go through two boxes of '06. Four inches left, adjust scope, five inches low, adjust scope. I am no bench rest shooter, but I sat down and put three into 1 3/4" with the dirty hot barrel. Friend and I adusted scope and put two rounds two inches high about an inch apart. Think they had about seven rounds left in the third box!

Impressive credentials. Me, I'm just a Pa hunter that shoots a little.

Around 30yards from admittedly a sit, but it was either back of the neck or nothing.





Around 40 off hand and under the eye in the thick half way up the hill.








Why a .22LR is your friend; offhand at 50.

I only have two in that stratified atmosphere. I have had them for years. One usually shot half inch, the other sometimes did. ( three shots ) This was when I was younger and in good condition with a heart rate at a resting 48-50 range. Getting older, vision not so good as then, and a pacemaker that keeps me a 70 minimum, has made all that history. The guns are still capable, but I am not.

I have some newer guns that might be that accurate, but I will never know unless I have a really good shooter behind the scopes. These days I am plenty happy with 1 1/4" as that will hit almost anything I might shoot at. Jack

Well, I've HAD 2 rifles that WERE 1/2" shooters.

Anytime 'i' could shoot well, they did.

1 was a REM 700 BDL (imagine that) 6 mm Rem. I promise that it was hard to load anything that would NOT shoot 1".

It really amazed me how accurate that rifle was. I know why I sold it BUTTT now wish I hadn't.

The other was a REM 700 ( oh no not 2 ) ADL 30-06. It was not QUITE as accurate but was ALMOST.

I'd swear that in court.

You sold 'em both??

Neither of those rifles were close. The Model 70 will average perhaps 1.25 for long term and the Kimber-which was a .338Fed at the time-could hit 1.25 on a good day. Usually it was more. It was a wonderful woods rifle, but just kicked to much to play around with and bounced around to much on the bench for me to be consistent. Hitting Deer sized targets in the Eastern hardwoods there are few situations that it would matter that it was on average 1.5 plus from the bench.

Horses for courses as the saying goes.

Most accurate rifle I own is a .308W with a No.3 Bartlain. The LR experts here could make that rifle dance I'm sure. It may no longer be so in that it was front heavy and uncomfortable in the hand. Combined with a short LOP to compensate for heavy clothes it was out of whack. GS just called and said I can pick it up. The barrel now is a little more than 20inches.

Hey they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true! I've gotta go, got a date with a French model.

I'd shoot 'em too. But then I'm also from Pennsylvania.

You ain't by yourself, us Virginia boys woulda put 'em on the ground too.

Speakin of half inch rifles, I've got a bone stock Remington SPS .243 that seems to shoot half inch groups on a regular basis.

Problem is I don't like 24" barrels and I'm afraid to cut it...

We all have our little worlds of how things work and they don't always apply to someone else's. That being said I appreciate what the LR people can consistently get done way out there with a great rifle.

I'm with battue. Anything MOA or under and I'm loading up as many rounds as I can so I can hit the range.

And I do believe we've gotten a little carried away with "ensuring a clean kill" these days. If you can find a rest, great. Lay out prone if you can.

But GD, offhand isn't exactly unethical.


Travis

A helluva lot of folks don't know how to look for a better shooting position and get into them in a timely manner. Look for a supported position (backpack, bipod, big rock, pickup hood) first. If not available, prone, sitting or crouching/kneeling in that order. Offhand as a last resort. Learn to use a shooting sling, it may someday save your azz.

It takes me something like an extra second to go from standing down into a kneeling position. Offhand is only a choice if intervening brush limits a lower position, even then there is often a tree to lean on.

Here are some good drills:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/courses.htm

Good advice, but inside 50 with the good stuff exposed I'm looking thru the scope if if it looks like things are going to change soon.

I would not want a true MOA rifle for the WTRC (Wyoming Tactical Rifle Championship) if I was shooting the precision rifle portion of the course. Bonus targets are under 1/2 MOA at 1K and you are likely to find some of those beyond 1K. Most targets are 10". I'm just not that good to make consistent hits (read the wind perfectly) in the conditions at distances say from 750-1000 yards.
Terry may have said that assuming the max distances would be closer.
To be competitive for the match I am referencing, I would want closer to a 1/4 MOA rig. Mine is actually a sub quarter rig when shooting off of a bi-pod.

My late father was a very succesful benchrest shooter in the late 50s and 60s, once held a world record in the light varmint class. Also a fine hunter [a public land mule deer is watching me write this..typical SCI 212 and change] He introduced my to Fred Huntingto, Warren Page, Mike Walker and other shooting well known folks as well. His manta..consistency, consistency,consistency! He also believed it was a rare factory hunting rifle that would shoot under an inch at 100 yards consistenly. I agree with that even today. I have several hunting rifles that are good shooters, several with custom barrels, douglas, shilen and hart...these are close to 1" rifles and will shoot some 3 shot groups that are really small..

I fully agree - there are lots of opportunities when a guy simply does not have time for a better position. 'Tis why we should all practice our offhand skills.

What I'm saying is that if a guy has any time, don't look at offhand as a primary choice, look for something better.

TAK - That link is good stuff, and something I wish folks on here would concentrate on far more than how small of groups they can shoot off a bench.

JB wrote and article awhile back and included was a pic of an Elk broadside at what looked like relatively close.

The caption-and it's been awhile, so correct me if I'm wrong, if you're reading JB-stated that many try to be absolutely exact in that situation. They fool around trying to hit the aorta dead center, when they should just be sticking one in the heart lung area right now. Of course you may have a dead Elk, but you may not have a campfire pic of a blown up heart and subsequently feel that you didn't do all that great.

Also the more you shoot the more you are not hesitant to shoot. The more you shoot the more pictures you have to call back on that gives confidence.

Great drills TAK. I've been meaning to buy one of those popper targets for some time and should do so.

I don't really care, If I work up a load for a rifle and it hovers at an inch. Im am more than haapy,but most are about 1&1/4" and that will kill any animal I hunt to any distance I am comfortable shooting at.I work harder in finding an animal and getting a sho tat it rather than what I kill it with.

I know you've seen it before. Offhand at 100 yards, plenty good enough for me. I'd say the large majority of my big game kills are offhand, with a kneel thrown in if I can get it.

Yea, I've seen it. Excellent shooting. I've tried to come close, but still have a way to go.

Don't sweat it, I have my off days too...

NOT TO ANYONE IN PARTICULAR:

I am NOT accusing anyone.....

WE can post pics of itty bitty groups, bug holes, 1/4" etc. That's fine & dandy.

HOW CAN WE KNOW they were shot at 100yds (meters)??

Even pics of bug holes, we are on the honor system!!

Guess we'll just have to take your word as well...that you are male.

Offhand game shooting teaches one much about themselves and adrenalin.

If you get one quick chance, you are stronger and relatively steady. The longer you have to think about it the wiggles start singing.

Mornin Smokey:

Yes I sold both of them BUT not at the same time.

First, I lived in La and had lots of varmint shooting. I sold the 6mm to a friend in Al and bought a Howa (S&W) 223. At the time I used the 223 MORE than the 6mm. NOW it's diff.

At another time/yr I traded the 06 for ?something I wanted worse, and I had an M6-06 that was very practical.

TODAY I wish I had BOTH of em.

NOT TO ANYONE IN PARTICULAR

Who gives a [bleep] what anyone else may think or believe? I only need to make myself happy.

What I do know is practicing hitting [bleep] in the positions you are most likely to encounter whilst hunting pays dividends. When I start hunting off a bench I'll practice that way.

Yep, one of the keys (besides a well balanced rig and a light trigger) is 'slapping' the trigger when the crosshairs/bead meets the target.

Many a folk spend far too much time behind the scope trying to make the shot instead of taking the shot.

That's true. I have targets of some groups, no pics of doing it.

Steely - I was NOT aiming that at you! pun intended.

I've shot some spectacular one shot groups. Sometimes if the first shot hits where I'm aiming I quit shooting.

When I have a hunter that brings up how well his rifle shoots, group size/long range stuff etc. my first thought is that this guy is going to suck as a hunting shooter.

Some hunters can do some nice shooting on sight in and then miss very decent shots on game. One example; had a guy on a sheep hunt brag up his long range rifle and even shot pretty good with it confirming zero. Then missed 3 shots on a ram from prone between 3-350 yards broadside standing still.

Everyone misses some, but at least don't start bragging to your guide before you've hit your critter.

You can trust my pictures. Not sure about anybody else.


Travis

who cares. how pathetic would someone have to be to post bogus pictures of something he had to put effort into faking, to impress people he does not know and probably will never meet? lol

Dude... bigsqueeze/laguna/raisuli faked their own death.

Jeff O has dedicated his life to convincing Boxer and Steelhead he can shoot.

No end to the possibilites around here.


Travis

true but how much did it all matter? i just laugh at the stupid people and block the ones who are both annoying and stupid

Don�t know if you remember the old Poatal matches we had here. Folks would run a course of fire and then mail their target(s) to some individual to score and post results.

I believe JJHack got one and I sure got one where it was obvious someone had used a pencil to poke holes through a target and sent it in.

Yeah, but sad to say, there are a lot of people who are 'pathetic' & don't have any honor.

WAY too many of them in D.C. & lots of poaching 'hunters'

true, too many of them affecting the rest of us.

Offhand I can think of 5 I own that I'd call consistent 1/2" guns, with good loads, if I am shooting well. Most won't, but don't need to, either.

This is three consecutive 5 shot 100 yard groups. I claim the prettiest 1/2" rifle

I understand what people are saying about 5 and 10 shot groups in order to call it a true 1/2in. rifle, and like i said earlier most of mine won't. However as hunting rifles go i've got an old 700 BDL 30/06 (1975) that will put the first shot of the day, for 10 days in a row into a 3/4in. group with it's favorite handloads. Does this make it a 3/4in rifle, no, but it does make me feel all warm and fuzzy as the crosshairs settle down on brown hair just before the bang, LOL. I guess it's up to us to decide what makes us happy in a rifle. 1/2 groups are sure fun, no dought, but i don't go broke chasing them anymore. YMMV.

Guy

Ross Seyfried wrote many years ago that while he loved a rifle that shot itty-bitty groups, his go to hunting rifle had to me the following standard, COLD BORE:

Two shots into a 3in paster @ 200yd, in MAR

Two shots into a 3in paster @ 200yd, in JUN

Two shots into a 3in paster @ 200yd, in SEP

Well, you get the idea...

He said such rifles were as rare as comets.

I own a couple comets.


Travis

I think I can figger out what a hunting rifle can do with three shots..

Sometimes I'll do five to make the people on here happy.

Very nice shooting. Looks like you do that for a living...Thanks for posting holes in the orange too and not something that's off to the left 4 inches and 3 inches low or high....You see a lot of those pictures of groups that arn't going to cut it at long distance when things start multiplying...

This cow was shot last season from the offhand position at 88 yards. She was on the move and I had to time it just right as she passed by the shot window between the scrub oak:



I went back and took some pictures of where I was standing when I made the shot and this is how it looked:


For most hunting situations a 2 moa rifle is going to work just fine, you just got to know your limits....

When doing load development, I don't care where the group is.
Then once the load is chosen, then I dial it in at 100, slip the dials, chrono, run the software, then confirm the drops in 100 yard increments to either 1000 or 1200 yards.

I appreciate everyone who tries to find the best performing load for their rifles. It doesn't matter if its a $4K custom or an off the shelf brand xyz. It doesn't matter if its a 3 shot, 4 shot or 5 shot group. The goal for hunting is to be as ethical you can with your rifle which translates to finding the most accurate load to do the job.

Nice shot bsa...that's not easy to do.

Woooohoooo - that's purdy.

Now TnC - you know # 1s don't shoot worth a hoot! <G>

That's true.

However I will not keep a 2 moa rifle. Seriously.

I had a BBR that shot fairly well ?. One out of 4, and not the same # of shot, would be thrown out @ 2". Sent it back to Browning, they could (did) not fix it. It took a trip to parts unknown.

There are few things as much fun as hitting small things far away. Got a varmint (purposely being vague) at the farm this morning I've been after for over 9 months. 291 yards was "close enough for my "5 in .7" 223.

Horses for courses. It takes five times five in less than .1 to win a benchrest match. It takes one in 12" to kill an elk. In my case, it takes one in a 3" kill zone for the little lady to get taken out for steak.......

I have two "five in 1/2" rifles", and I enjoy the heck out of them, when the wind isn't blowing......

yes, of course they don't. Swampy claims I shot that at 25 yards

I really don't see how this is such a big deal. The whole idea is that the rifle is capable of this level of accuracy, the shooter using it may or may not be. I have a load for each of my rifles that will shoot 1/2" or less 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Of course, I can't do this on a windy day or with a smoking hot barrel, but the rifles are capable of it with the right load in good conditions. A rifle that can't shoot that well just doesn't interest me.

Some people still won't get it.

That's JUST what the baldy I shot this past season looked like except she was 60-70-ish and laying. Typical west Pennsylvania offhand shot, and no, my kids aren't hungry. Momma never heard the rifle crack.

P.S. It was only a 3/4" gun to boot !!!!!!

Maybe it's just me but I've never needed money bad enough to sell an honest 1/2" rifle.

Well then.......how do you sleep at night?
quite well, I presume...

Well... I had 2 small boys...and I was PAYING for them to go to school.

I think I did well to do AS MUCH gunning, loading, shooting, as I did. Which was A LOT.

In reality, unconsciously, I was 'verifying' Bob Hagel's book.

You don't have to explain your reasons to sell a gun or two. A lot of us know about hard times. I lost my job in early '09 and couldn't find another in my field due to the economy. I sold 50 guns over the next year and a half.

M M - Thnx.

FIRST, let me OOUUCCHH for you. That HAD to hurt.

I really did ALOT of shooting in relation to Hagel. I had, even then, many rifles/cartridges and I tested EVERY one in comparison to B.H.

I have several guns that fit into the category that Jon R Sundra called "Little Misses I Have Known."

It still hurts. I'm still out of leverguns and revolvers both of which I had built a pretty good collection of. But I make half the money now that I did prior to 2009. Someday (if they ever get the economy fixed again)I hope to rebuild my collection.

FWIW my norm test is at 300 yards for our AR 15s. 10 shots into 2 inches or less. If I can't make the barrel shoot that well it got dumped right quickly.

Not half an inch at 100 but still shows that todays firearms can be very capable.

But it also takes some skill behind the butt too.

And IMHO another poster said smithing skills came along very nicely. IMHO that is true but barrel quality and bullet quality, again, IMHO, have become much more so the norm than it used to be at all.

I understand. I have three large boys and I'm paying for two of 'em to go to school right now!!!

there's a simple answer....when the internet became popular the accuracy of the average firearm increased markedly.

Far more 1/2" groups are fired on the internet than at any firing range.

Probably so, but that does not take away from those who do seriously pursue precision shooting from the bench and field.

YEP!

And when you have/had TWO (2) out of a whole lot of rifles......well, that's a small percentage.

That is sad.
My percentage is much higher, thankfully.

I'd say most of the guys claiming to have 1/4 - 1/2" rifles are the same guys who have their wife convinced that 4" equals 8".

I have no idea on that.
My rigs are primarily single-shots and tend to be smaller than your rifles.
They are not plaqued with "little gun" syndrome though

Not really. I'm not a competition shooter, don't have long range opportunities (past 400 yds) and ANY rifle I have or keep is capable of sub-1" groups w/loads it likes & bullets I like.

That is more than enuff for my needs & to keep me happy.

YMMV

Very true.
Most hunters and shooters for that matter, don't need to have 1/4 or 1/2 MOA accuracy to take every animal they dream of and have a great time at the range.

What IS sad, the majority of hunters I've spent any amount of time with CAN NOT shoot a 1" group and some have never tried.

I just moved and left a deer lease with a large membership. Most of them were 'dog' deer hunters. Most of them spent NO time practicing or group shooting.

This first pic is of a TYPICAL group for the BBR 300 WM I NO LONGER HAVE.


This is a TYPICAL group from a Rem 700 BDL 300 WM right after I got rid of the BBR.


A nickel complete covers 4 shots>>30cal.


This pic is of same rifle>> 165 HBTSP


Same nickel covers 4 shots 30cal.(bottom hole - 2 bullets.


I SWEAR these were shot FROM 100 yds.

AFAIC (as far as I'm concerned) that's not too shaby for a 300 WM.

AFAIC " " " " " that's not too shaby for a Rem 700.

Those would KILL even VARMINTS at a fair distance.

Nice groups!

When I bought my CZ .221 Fireball, I picked up ONE box of factory ammo with 50gr. Vmax bullets. It went into .6" or so. I was happy.

I bought some new Fireball cases and loaded up some ammo with a variety of bullets (none heavier than 50gr.) and using a load I got from a buddy of mine, got several groups right at .25" or a fuzz over. This was with 40gr.VMs, 50gr.VMs, 50BKs, and 50gr.SPSX bullets.
I am still happy, it's the most accurate rifle I own. It's way overscoped, but I gotta see before I can shoot. None of my other rifles, heavy barrelled or not, will shoot that well. This is a standard CZ 527 American, no heavy pipe. I might have just got lucky, but lordy, that little gun will SHOOT.

Oh yeah, the load?
Any one of those bullets listed above ^.
18.5 Reloader 7
Federal 205M primers
R-P cases.

It's not especially fast, but fast ain't all that important, precision IS.

These are by far the best threads to stay away from.

hey ratsmacker -

Dats some shootin!!

Have Y'ALL thot about this??

A 1/2" group with a .223 is LARGER than a 1/2" group w/30 cal??

Uh huh, Uh huh! the 223 bullets are FARTHER apart!

Know what I mean Vern??

Yeah, I've never even found out precisely what a MOA rifle (or 1/2" gun) means. Without a commonly agreed upon statistical definition it's pretty much whatever you want it to be. Denton would know the details but the NRA bases statistics on 50 rounds fired under exactly (as humanly possible) the same conditions. And you don't discount flyers unless you know with certainty it was caused by an external event.

I have a 16 year old son and we have five centerfire bolt action rifles along with two AR's and two rimfires. We have a Savage .243 with AccuStock and AccuTrigger that shoots 1/2 to 3/4 with the only ammo we use in it. Our Remington 700 ADL in .270 shoots a little under moa, not much but a little. The same for our CZ 550 American in 6.5x55. It shoots 3/4 to 1 inch. That is good enough for me. Our last two additions, a Vanguard S2 30-06 and a Marlin 336W I haven't measured. When we sighted them in they looked good and I left it at that. We sight in our rifles once every four months or so and leave it at that since they are for hunting, not target. I will check the accuracy on my AR 15 once I can afford optics for it. My CZ 512 .22 Mag shoots under an inch at 75 yard, behind my house. Our rifles have four star scopes on them: Zeiss, Leupold, Bushnell and Vortex. All of our rifles except one have good mounts and bases on them - Warne. I am not saying Warne is the best, just that they are good quality. I am a trigger fanatic and insist our rifles have a 2.5 to 3 lb pull. The Savage and CZ 550 came that way. I adjusted the trigger on the Vanguard, installed a Happy Trigger myself in the Marlin and paid $25.00 for a trigger adjustment on the Remington, it has the old trigger not the new one. I am happy with the accuracy of our rifles and see no need to tinker with them anymore. I also purchased and installed a Timney for our DPMS 20" barrel and will be installing one in our Stag 16" barrel as soon as funds permit.

I also will not let a place like Cabela's or Academy mount a scope. We have a Tipton Gun Vise, a Wheeler Fat Wrench, two differnt reticle leveler's and a cheap boresiter. This in my opinion contributes greatly to the accuracy of our rifles.

Another thing I have noticed is that when we go to the local gun range the groups I see from most people run from 2 to 4 inches. When talking to these people and handling their guns I find that a store mounted their scopes, the scopes are usually inexpensive brands with 50 MM objectives and the triggers are horrible. I am not putting down 50 mm objectives by any means, what I am saying is I would rather have my Zeiss Conquest with a 40 MM objective than a $100.00 scope with a 50 MM objective.

Sorry to ramble, just my two cents and I am not an expert nor claim to be.

cdb, +1

This is a my wife's Kimber .260 that I bought from a member here. ONLY rifle I've ever owned that would come close to a 3 shot, 1/2" group. It's the ONLY rifle I've ever owned that wll consistantly shoot 3 shots 1" or under at 100 yards. All the other rifles I own, or have owned, are 1.25-1.75". I've never had problems killing deer over any of our beanfields here in SC with a rifle that shoots 1.5" groups

Here's a sample of my only "1/2in rifle"

1/2 inch guns a where you find them, few of them are in safes, the vast majority of them are on the internet...

I've pondered that several times myself. Yes, I understand that the groups appear smaller with bigger bullets. I also understand that 1/2" c-to-c is 1/2"c-to-c despite the size of the holes
I'm certain that I just got lucky with this little rifle. All I did was clean the CZ gunk out of the barrel, put a scope in the rings, and take it to the range. My buddy had a couple of Fireball rifles before I bought this one, and I asked him a lot of questions before assembling any ammo. I'm sure that helped a lot, too.
Your rifle shot remarkably well. You should be, like I am, thankful that you got lucky with it. Let's just be pleased with what we have/had (in your case). My OTHER pd rifles won't shoot with the little Furball, but have other attributes I can like.

I have shot a few varmint rifles that held 1/2" or smaller no
problem, usually 222 or 22-250 caliber. I owned a custom 257 Roberts built on a Mexican Mauser that would stay around 1/2"
most of the time. Other than that all of the other rifles that
I owned over the years for deer hunting were 1.5-3" which didnt
bother me as still killed deer.

Most guys here are talking about a 3-5 shot group at 100 yards.
Most do not shoot five 5-shot groups at a time and get an agg.
With MOA being barely over an inch at 100 yards, most end up using what is called "shooters MOA" instead of being precise with a MOA measurement.
I usually get in one LR bench match per year. More of a field shooter myself.
3 different specialty pistols at three different distances when conditions were nice:
Center-grip XP-100 in 6.5-284 600 yards (4-shot group) at range just north of Hutchinson KS

18" MOA Maximum in 6x47 Lapua 500 yards off of a bi-pod (3-shot group)


5-shot group at a 1K match this past June, Rear-grip bench pistol in 7WSM ( 180 JLK's)

My only point is: With 1/2" group with a 223 or similar, the bullets ARE father apart than with LARGER caliber bullets.

I have 'rarely' used C-C in measuring groups, I prefer my groups measured O-O (outside-outside)

Those 4 shot groups with 30 cal are 'aproximately' 3/4" O-O.

REALLY, I've measured nickels that were 3/4" in dia.

Very nice shooting there xp.

I could do that IF I had a rest.

Now seriously--- man that's AWFULLY GOOD!

Got a pard who is beyond being a gunhead than anyone else I have
met. He will buy or trade into a rifle and if it doesnt shoot
how he wants it to he goes over every little detail to correct it
and drives himself crazy doing it.

I am being honest in this next statement.

I have presently other rifles,cals, that'll do that. I don't have time to dig thru NOTEBOOKS of loading/target data to post the pics.

AT THE SAME TIME - I don't call OR consider them 1/2" guns. They ARE sub 1" guns.

The 700, 6mm AND 700 06, WERE 1/2" shooters. They were also BOX, STOCK, no mods except MY trigger adjustments. I'm NOT saying they shot 1/2" groups with every load but with multiple loads.
Again, on days when I could shoot well they never disappointed me.

When I shoot em' in before a hunt for deer sized game, if my rifles will put 3 shots into an inch and a half...I'm goin' huntin'.

I could set you up with a rest like that, IF you really wanted one
I enjoying goofing at LR
FYI "xphunter" is because I hunt with XP-100's

The only rifle that I could not get to shoot 1" or less was that BBR.

With a little judicious handloading, tinkering with charges, primers, seating depth, I have found most rifles capable of BETTER THAN NEEDED accuracy for hunting.

I don't pay much attention to a lot of "stuff" posted about sorry, inaccurate, and unreliable rifles today.

My experience does NOT support certain claims. I could but will not say more. I HAVE and have HAD too many to be swayed by 'claims'.

The PROOF isn't in the puddin, it's ON THE TARGET!

I have a rifle that will consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups, but this one isn't it. This Remington 141 in 35 Rem will only shoot three into about 5/8 of an inch at 100 yds, but it will do that fairly often, if I'm not the one shooting it. This is with factory ammo. My brother, who shot this group, has one in 30 Remington that will out shoot this rifle.

That is just real cool with a pump rig.

It is not the norm in my experience, but I do have two rifles that will do 1/2" with select loads reliably. Other rifles will on occasion when the moon, stars, and tidal phases align give a 1/2 group. A mentor who taught me deer hunting said if you can hit a dinner plate at 100 yards reliably you will have meat in the freezer. I like accurate rifle but do not obsess over it.

HOW FAR can you hit that dinner plate PAST 100 yds?

I've been looking for deer with oil bottles on their sides. I can hit an oil bottle a 'fer piece'.

Have you seen any dinner plates on deer?

Mathsr, that may be the most impressive group on this [long] thread.

Well no they do not have a dinner plate on their side. However the "kill" zone is pretty close to that, it has worked for me for the past 40 years I have hunted deer. Use what works for you, I have meat in the freezer. In the deep woods that I hunt 75 yards is a very long shot. A 300H&H which is not a 1/2" rifle, I can hit within 4" at 300 yards for 3 shots. Never yet have had a need to shoot that far.

Hey smith -

I was joking, as indicated by grinney faces. <G>

Understand, past 100 is important, but not always. 1/2" is very nice but not really needed for most situations.

Talus I wish I could say that old Remington 141 will shoot like this "all day long" but it won't. These old Remington pumps will surprise you with how well they shoot though.

The OP asked when guns and shooters became so accurate that they became 1/2inch shooters. It didn't happen over night in my opinion and many accurate rifles (maybe not exactly 1/2 inch rifles, but close) have been around for a long time. There is just enough knowledge and good equipment out there now to let them strut their stuff.

Some accurate rifles have been around a long time as is evidenced by the Remington pump. Will it put five in 1/2 inch? No, I doubt that it would, but it will put three really close together often enough that I am not surprised when it does. Would I ever be able to shoot such a small group in a hunting situation with the scope on the rifle that I normally hunt with? No. I can't do it with the 24X scope that is on there now. I'm just not that good of a shot and I don't care. I have confidence in the rifle, that it will do its part in the hunt and that is all I ask of it. That, to me, is the advantage in knowing how well or how poorly a rifle will shoot.

Before hunting season this fall when I put the 2.5X scope in its low mounts back on the rifle, it will return to is normal self as a 2 MOA rifle. I won't be able to shoot a better group than that with it in its hunting configuration. But I will know what the rifle is capable of doing and any short fall will be on my part.

Indeed, the rifle I trust most is an old Mauser, WWII in stock barrel 8mm. Peep sites. Best I can do off a bench is about 3"-4" at 100 yards. On a deer in the woods.. Meat in the freezer. Confidence in a rifle means a lot. I had a Sako AV Finnbear in 6.5X55, won many a "sporter bench rest match" with this rifle, never was able to kill a deer with it?? There is a reason for the old standby. It works for the situation.

You know Bob, for some reason these type shots are easier for me. I grew up bird hunting (quail for non-southerners) and sometimes just bring your gun up, find the target and pull the trigger seems to work best. I've screwed up shots where I had too long to think about it sometimes.

bludog: Yes I understand ...like grouse hunting.

Ever notice when you "swing through" something it is somehow easier to maintain the vertical than on a stationary target where you might dawdle and the crosshairs bounce around as you try to find "center" and touch off?

I don't know how to explain it any other way...I read somewhere that it is part of motor reflex for that to happen, or something.

I think the fact that such shots must be taken quickly eliminates the hesitation and desire to get everything just perfect,leads to target anxiety.Seems the more you fool around touching off, the worse things get.

I've noticed that. It's easy to keep the offhand wobbles at bay when the game is walking or in a slow run (I don't bother shooting when they hit a fast run). If I can keep my rifle in motion on a moving animal my lethality offhand goes up.

My biggest concern is where the first one goes. I had an encore in 30-06 that would shoot 2-2.5" 5 shot "groups" at 100 if all were fired over a few minutes. Make one shot each day in similar conditions with a cold clean bore and it was much closer to 1-1.25" groups. My Rem 700 SPS SS in 7mm-08 would hover around 1/2" for 5 shots from a cold bore with a couple different loads, but those were carefully crafted handloads.

Many rifles have been in my safe over the past 54 years, and I was able to shoot only one as a true half-incher. That was a box stock Ruger M77R 243 purchased new in about '82. I would lay empty 20 gauge shotshells on top of the hundred yard board and clean them off with one shot each without ever touching the board. The load was 100gr Sierras over Win 785 powder (forget the charge weight). I came close to that with my Winchester M70XTR Featherweight 270 shooting 130 Sierras over the same powder but could not quite break the 5/8" barrier. I cried when they discontinued W785.

I have a gun like that too. It's a .30-06 and it will only shoot 2, 2 1/2" groups even if I wait twenty minutes between shots. If I fire a shot a day it's more like a 1 1/2" gun.