Hi Ken,
<br>I was told you might have an answer to this type of question. The story starts about 2 years ago. I had a 35 Gibbs and wanted to try some of the new (at least to me) Hawk bullets. I prefer to use heavy bullets so I bought some 275 grain .358 bullets. I had already had a load for the 300 grain barnes .358 bullets so I started with that load for the 275 bullets. Well to make a long story short the first shot destroyed the rifle. It swelled the barrel and ruined the bolt. I was lucky to come out of it with only a bloody eyebrow and a few scrapes on my hand. Anyway...not really knowing what might have caused that I assumed it had to be that headspace was wrong on the Gibbs case...However I never had had trouble with the rifle before..something like 500+shots. Anyway after the gunsmith gave me the sad news of the destroyed Rem. 721 I threw away all the powder that I used...the cases I used and measured and weighed every single Hawk bullet. Alll were .358 in diameter and weighed exactly 275 grains. So I figured it was impossible for it to be the bullet. Anyway..move forward two years and I bought a Rem. 700 35 Whelen classic. After shooting some of the Noslers 250 and even some of my supply of 300 grain barnes I again tried those 275 Hawks. Well you can guess what happened. But not on the first shot. The first shot was perfectly normal, the bullet went out and there was no pressure signs whatever. I then was thinking to myself. It had to be the headspace the last time on that Gibbs case. Well, when the second shot went...same story. The gun again blew up. This time it destroyed the bolt and trigger parts. This just blows my mind. I have been an avid reloader for years and this bullet has been the only one to do this to me. Oh, by the way. I sent the classic back to Remington and they fixed it for free, that was some super service. The one thing I never will do is shoot Hawk bullets again. Any insight to this problem?????
<br>Thanks for all the help
<br>SWC

Don't blame it on the bullets.
<br>
<br>Your loads were already dangerously close to the edge. When you changed one variable (those bullets), the slight difference -- which wouldn't be a great problem if your loads were safely moderate -- was enough to hoist pressures the small amount necessary to expedite the destruction of your rifle.
<br>
<br>I'd need all the details of your load, to be more certain and specific, and I'd really love to run one of your loads through an instrumented test barrel -- but given what you've told me, I'm confident that your loads were already hot enough to have you skirting close to the brink of a blow-up.

Just to add to what the good Doctor is telling you, early in my reloading learning curve, I did something similar, I was loading a Ruger 300 Win, mag and used a load that was about halfway in the books and substituted a different bullet of the same weight but different style and to make a long story short, I had to use a piece of wood to get the action open. Rifle survived, but the primer dropped out and the primer pocket was VERY enlarged and the brass case had flowed to the shape of the bolt face. Lesson learned the hard way. Work up each and every bullet from scratch when substituting components.

Thanks for the response but I guess I should explain a little more about the 2nd rifle that blew up. This time in the standard 35 Whelen I took the starting load out of the Hodgen #2 reloading manual as my load...same result...blown up rifle. I can't remember the charge right now..I would have to look that up, but it was Rl 15 something around 51 or 52 grains. I thought it was odd that my first shot out of this Whelen was fine.
<br>Thanks again

Go to accuratereloading.com and search the archives. Many folks have stated they have had pressure spikes and eratic behaviour with Hawk bullets. The jackets are much softer than other bullets, and It is said the bullet bases are often several thousands larger in dia then the bullet dia.

One day last week I used a GRAF BRO. catalog and called the tech reps at the bullet and powder companies at the 800 numbers in the catalog.I asked for load data using their product in the 416 Rigby. One of them,who makes a 350 gr. 416 bullet,said" Just use any of the data you find for any 350 or 400 gr.bullet". I THINK it was the Speer rep,but I can't swear to it.
<br>
<br>Point is,I reckon they figure it aint no big deal.Maybe they are wrong.

So here is my question then,
<br>"Am I at fault, or is the manufacturer of the bullet"
<br>I picked a load that was a starting load
<br>I fired the first shot...not problems
<br>Then I fire the second and "BOOM"
<br>I have a wasted rifle, since the folks at Remington were so nice I'm not worried about getting anything, I just wonder how can I avoid such problems in the future? Does anyone else want to try those 275 Hawk bullets, I'll mail some to anyone. check them out for yourself, there is no problem with them at least on the outside. I'm still very confused about what happened.
<br>SWC

Your plight has me concerned. I have 3 .358 rifles and I don't think I want to try those bullets either.
<br>
<br>Here are some things to do. Call up Hawk and ask them what their bullets are made of. ie Is the jacket guilding metal or copper? is the lead pure or alloyed and if it is what is the alloy and it's %. Try to draw out any loading data. Look for their website. Don't say you have a problem buy try to get then to talk.
<br>
<br>As Ken Howell said you must have been near the max anyway. The Swedish military loaded up lot of 6.5X55's with plated bullets and blew up a lot more guns than you did so this can happen.
<br>
<br>You also might check that your other loading components are secure and that there is no contamintion of the powder and that your powder scale is correct.
<br>
<br>Over the years the only pressure problems I have had has been from incorrect loading data (hodgdon and AA). At the range I have seen blow ups caused by squib loads (loads with no powder) sticking a bullet in the bbl and the next full charge blowing the gun up.
<br>
<br>When I load a cartridge I go and get a can of powder and put it on the bench. Then I look at it again and check the data twice. When I am done with that loading I put that can away. Anybody can get mixed up. Then of course there is NO smoking or drinking.
<br>
<br>The only bullets that I have seen that are different are the Barnes X bullets. They have a long bearing surface. But my loads with them were just hot. And the Barnes manual (#1) anyway reflects this. So I was prewarned and I just loaded the Barnes X to the max for that rifle with that bullet.
<br>
<br>I would ask this question about Hawk bullets on more forums but don't give any facts like you did here. Just ask how others like them and for loading data. The 275 weight is not standard so it's a valid question.

I've read and posted on pressure problems with Hawk Bullets and Dual Based powders. You stated you were using Re15. This is the first I've heard of destruction with the combination. In three years of internet Shooting BBS I read of this enough to Know not to even use the bullet line. The bullet is a swaged lead slug in a soft copper jacket of varying thickness. Primitive design at premium prices. Not even bonded core.
<br>On the one occasion Hawk finally admitted to pressure probems with the dual based powders and reccommended the single based propellents. Search shooters talk for some info. Some pressure tests would be interesting, to say the least. Caveat Emptor!

SWC,
<br>
<br>If you want to mail me some I will let everyone know how they perform in a 358Norma.
<br>
<br>Ted

If you want to try them I'll be more than happy to mail you 15 of them to try....let me know what happens...you can email me with your address at [email protected]
<br>I wish you the best of luck with them.
<br>SWC

I have used 2-3 thousand of the Hawk bullets over the past about 20 years, and in about 16 different calibers, both hot shot and antique calibers. I have never had a problem. However for some years I was in a position to analize the complaints to a bullet manufacturor, which is an excellant place to really find out how many ways handloaads can go wrong.
I remember two particular incidents with the Gibbs cartridges that did about the same thing you discribe. Fortunately I was able to inspect the rifle, and loads completely. I found the same thing caused both incidents. The reloader did not check the neck thickness on his cases. Depending on the brand of brass you use and the loads you use, this problem can creap up on you as soon as the second reload. When this happens, the bullet is pinched in the neck and does not expand enough to release the bullet. I can assure you that it doesn't take but a little of this situation to run pressures thru the roof. Accuracy goes to pot first, and then the damage starts. It can be destructive in one case and not the next one , everything else the same. The brass is flowing forward into the neck. The same thing applies to cases that are too long for the chamber. Just as easy to have and just as destructive.

In one case I had a fine double rifle, in 400/360, which uses 9.3 dia bullets. I had a bunch of RWS reformed brass I had reloaded over twenty times, and at the low pressures, it worked fine, but I loaded a few with Norma cases, same loads and die settings. On the second reloading, about half of the Norma loaded cases would not fully enter the chamber.
With blue die ink I was able to determine that there was a thick ring at the rear of the neck and over the base of the bullet. If those could have been chambered, my results would probably have been the same as yours.
I once owned a .30 Ackley imp., and found that there was only one brand of 30/06 cases that I could use to form these from , without having the necks too thick. Of course, in these hot formed case ctgs, you can set the neck back with improperly set dies very easially, but I have never seen this cause actually destroy a rifle. Usually it just shows a hot load or maybe a loose primer. If you turn the necks on all formed cases, accuracy will also be better. Turn the outside, don't ream the inside.
Mr. Howell is right, I would guess that your load was a little hot to begin with
so that anything else could push it over the edge. I am constantly amased at the extreme hot loads most reloaders use with no problems at all. Testimony to the strength of the available rifles I guess.
On any cartridge that you have to form the cases for, after forming, check the neck thickness on 4 sides of the neck and the length.
On the first two or three firings , check the length and neck wall thickness.
Most will grow a little the first reloadings and then will gradually quit. But you still need to check about every other reloading, just to be safe. And remember, different brands and calibers may often form differently.
I have one 375 ctg I form cases for that uses reformed .35 welen cases beautifully, but reforming from 30/06 or .270 cases results in neck variations and problems.

I have had the use of pressure equipment and seen the sometimes large differences that just switching brands of bullets will make, yet still , most shooters will switch brands or types of bullets with their tried and true max
load, and wonder why they blow primers. Depending on what you are using for a start comparison, these increases in pressure can be as much as 10,000=15,000psi. If you have a hot load to start with, or are maybe using a heavier brand of cases at the same time, it can easially be distructive.
You can not switch bullets or cases without working up from very reduced loads.
I saw a new .338 Winchester rifle tested that was giving about 150 fps
above any published factory load , and this was with Winchester factory
ammo. To get this back down to reasonable pressures, we had reduce
loads by about 10% or more. Chamberings and rifles are different too.
You have to find out what your rifle accepts. Remember the rule of thumb is that to increase velocity by 5%, you have to increase pressures by 10%.
That is a lot and tells me that that last 50fps in a handload is not worth chasing. The deer will never know the difference and you will have a lot less
problems .
From pressure tests I have done or seen, you will often get away with switching bullets, but it depends on so many other things. I have never seen a bullet that was a problem that would not have worked well with a proper
reload or that was the cause by itself for any kind of damage to a rifle.

(There is one exception to this. I have seen at least one brand of solid brass bullet that actually expanded a barrel several thousands, but it was made out of very hard brass, a bad mistake. )

The reloading manuals don't tell you much about these things. It is too bad that we all have to learn the hard way, and I am no exception, I just am one who lived thu my mistakes.
Did you know that leaving a box of some types of cartridges on the dash of your car in the sun on a hot day can increase pressures as much as 5000-8000psi.
One last observation. I have found that most of the ball powders , when used at presures above about 62,000psi, will often concave the base of even a solid section bullet, and swage the base out tight in the throat of the rifle. Accuracy of course will usually be affected too. The Hawk bullet has a soft jacket, and I have proved that they bump up with even milder loads to completely seal the bore, thus requiring less powder than a hard bullet , depending on the bore size and throat dimensions. It also stops gas cutting thus barrel wear. Depending on your particular rifle and ctg. this could easially be another severe problem in a hot reload.
I have always had excellant results with the Hawk bullets, and will continue to use the , even in my fine English double rifles. I almost always get superior accuracy with them.
Pardon my going on so long here . I have never put anything on one of these before, and had a lot stored up to carry o about, and I must admit it is kinda fun. Keep shoot'n

There is an active discussion at Hunt America-Riflesmithing on Tod Bartell's blown up rifle that relates to this topic.

Warning:

Go to Hunt America-rifles and gunsmithing-guess what my dad did........... and read the latest on this situation.

I am just a little disapointed that there has been no feed back on this thread.

For your own safety and the safety of others please do this!

From Hawk bullets website...........

Caution

Reduce beginning loads by 10%. Hawk bullets are different. Our soft jackets do seal the bore more completely and require less powder to produce normal pressures. Each rifle is an individual case, so always approach maximum loads with care.

Slug your bore. When loading for old American-made or any English or European rifle, particularly 9.3mm, .360, .350, or 43 Spanish calibers, it is very important that you carefully measure the bore with a lead slug and match the bullet diameter to the actual bore size. Numerous rifles chambered and marked for 9.3mm or .360 cartridges actually have .35 caliber bores and should use .358 diameter bullets. Many 43 Spanish require .435 diameter bullets instead of .439. Bullets up to .003 undersize usually work fine. If you don’t have the necessary equipment, any capable gunsmith can help.
[/i][/u][/i][/u]

14-year old thread resurrection. That has to be a record.

And ONE that needs to be rediscovered from time to time!!

well??

Amen brother.

I think it is also commendable or noteworthy at least, that the 'resurrection' came at the hands of a member who has never posted in 4 1/2 years as a part of this board, but still recalls his password!

I didn't

Edward? Is that you, Snowden? Or are you just a Russian........hacker?

<br>

<br>

<br>

I used Hawk bullets (225gr) in my 350 Magnum. I thought they'd be the perfect bullet. I didn't have an issue with pressure, just accuracy.

Read Dr. Brownells research and you might find your answer! Different thicknesses and hardness of the bullets jacket has been proven to raise chamber pressures, to dangerous levels when using the same weight bullet! I'm not an expert by any strech of the imagination but his findings, explained my problem with flattened primers on same weight bullets, same powder charge and same primer.

I have loaded Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Speer, Winchester, Remington, Barnes.... with no pressure problem hot or mild in any rifles I own. Disregarding Brownell. Sorry, I speak from experience.

Sorry heym06 but you are missing some other varibles other than jacket consistency.


I guarantee that the OP didn't heed to 10% below start loads, and that's the reason for the blow ups.

And I guarantee that the OP hasn't visited this site in 14 years.

So who are you talking to?

I'm talking to ones who made an attempt to give him advice and failed to fix his problem.

Its amazing to me, a lot times, that forums like this.. give bogus info only either not resolve a problem with opinions or... completely discredit someone or something.

. Yes I know there are other variables, I was just trying to educate a little on something over looked by many. I'm not sure anyone has fixed his problem, are you? Hell for all we know he's using the wrong powder, or volume, scale not calibrated. What's your input other than to tell us you have used many bullets, as most here including myself have with no problems, and assuming he didn't work up the load! I don't disregard Dr. Brownell he did more in-depth studies than most, and I suggested reading all of them! I speak from experience also over fifty years reloading, plus two years gunsmithing school, and metallurgy!

There are people in this thread from the original posting that aren't even alive anymore.

Necro threads never end well.

Too true, and the Seahawks lost.

Heym06......

All high power rifles made from 1898 and on can handle ALOT more than you think. Read a PO Ackley report on the strongest actions that he grossly overloaded.

Read and follow directions, basically be mature enough to do this...or just the common sense, better yet.

This OP failed to follow Hawks bullet instructions... and blames the bullet maker, how convenient. Considering,.. they did the pressure testing..

I'm not sure anyone has fixed his problem, are you???

Umm.. have you left your computer knowing your input helped and feel better?

You said.....Different thicknesses and hardness of the bullets jacket has been proven to raise chamber pressures, to dangerous levels when using the same weight bullet!

ALL the bullets I listed that I loaded throughout the years haven't raised pressure other than a bolt being a little stiff to open... so your comment... "it doesn't help the OP at all",my input...... does it??? Maybe not, if he hasn't visted lately, or passed away, or whatever the case may be.



Like I said handloading is easy, anyone can do it.

The only excess pressure, I had to deal with was an honest mistake of jamming a bullet up against the rifling to open primer pockets, and another was having to cut the base of a die and causing excess headspace and smacking my cheek from the excess recoil. The die wasn't made to maximum headspace per manufacture. So after altering the die I just sized accordingly and the problem was solved.

Other than those 2 problems I had ZERO problems reloading considering the testing for pressure was already done by professionals. Oh BTW it didn't take 50 years, 2 years of gunsmithing school and studying metal to know that other than trusting the folks who do the testing.

Originally Posted by Ken Howell

Don't blame it on the bullets.
<br>
<br>Your loads were already dangerously close to the edge. When you changed one variable (those bullets), the slight difference -- which wouldn't be a great problem if your loads were safely moderate -- was enough to hoist pressures the small amount necessary to expedite the destruction of your rifle.
<br>
<br>I'd need all the details of your load, to be more certain and specific, and I'd really love to run one of your loads through an instrumented test barrel -- but given what you've told me, I'm confident that your loads were already hot enough to have you skirting close to the brink of a blow-up.

"skirting close??"
WHAT? No max load or even over PUBLISHED max loads would cause a blow up. And I have Lee data that is over Hornady, or Sierra data max loads... ALL data is within SAMMI specifications.

Should this statement cause some concern?? From Hawk bullets.....

"They seal the bore and engage the rifling more completely, improving accuracy and eliminating gas blow-by....

So what does this tell us class?? if there's less blow by where's the pressure going?

Really? Come on.
OP states........

"the cases I used and measured and weighed every single Hawk bullet. All were .358 in diameter and weighed exactly 275 grains."

I'm CONFIDENT he loaded correctly if this was under normal circumstances. But you're confident he was skirting close to the brink of a blow up???

And this is the most humorous statement here...

"was enough to hoist pressures the small amount necessary to expedite the destruction of your rifle."


Ummmmm.... moderating the pressure signs, which again I'm sure he has done in the past..

On another note.. "loads were being dangerously close to the edge"???

would show indications waaaaaay BEFORE a rifle barrel/action being blown up... um, like, case failure.

. Well I'm glad you've only had hard bolt lift and opened primer pockets. As far as metal used in gun actions don't lecture my on action strength. Reloading you do it your way I'll do it the right way! Replies not necessary I've seen enough of you ignorance in the other posts! Have a great day

Any experienced hand loader who does not understand that a change in bullets of the same weight (when you are skirting max loads) can result in pressures going out of site is either stupid, or not very experienced.

One or the other.

well let me ask you this Bob....since you are such an expert on the subject.

when you use the word "can".... can it result in pressures going out of site? So you don't believe that a case failure would happen long before a barrel/receiver would fail?

PO Ackley tested a few magnum barreled actions, type 38, type 99, 98 mauser, 03 sprinfeild with barrels bulging, some split, but none of the actions gave way. I wonder why? Because they are designed beyond any excess pressure from outside sources whether they be human or not.

The only thing that the OP said happened to his rifle was

"It swelled the barrel and ruined the bolt"

Changing bullet manufactures with max loads would not even come close to doing the above. The casing would fail first. People like you are convinced by manufactures who are persuaded by their legal council to preach the dangers of what you say... IF you understood why SAMMI came into being, then you wouldn't be so concerned of what's in print of so called warnings, but in all actuality is a safe guard for a law suit. BUT....IF it's in print, it's insurance to the manufactures.

I do do it the right way, start to max. And I never had any pressure issues/signs just because I changed bullet makes... sorry.

Back when the fire was a different place, we used to have a gunsmith that posted here a bit. Was in the magazines, made very accurate rifles.

He also had pressure testing equipment to go along with a 100 yard range (underground IIRC - made from shipping containers). With that equipment he did a bit of an experiment with a 300 WM. Over loaded it till it let go.

Eventually he blew the last 5-7 inches of the barrel off. Way over max and verified with test equipment.

Not a single "generally accepted" sign of over pressure that most reloaders look for. Brass issues, case failure, extraction issues etc. NONE of those happened before that barrel let loose and the pressure test equipment proved this wasn't a bad barrel but well over max loads PSI/CUP wise.

Moral of the story was that generally accepted signs of over pressure were NOT reliable and it was definitely possible to be well over max without notice.

I don't believe this one bit.

Don't care what you do or don't believe. I trust that particular gunsmith.

I'm glad you do, have at it.

Considering brass is softer than steel, what would give first?

Start at the top champ.

Secondary Pressure Spikes



Course I don't expect a guy like you to get it - after basically calling out Ken H. I'm not one of his largest fans but the guy was generally considered an expert on the matter - given the books he's written and published on the topic and his time as an editor. Fact remains - Charlie had the equipment and ran the tests - went hot enough to blow the end of the barrel off the gun and ZERO typical indicators on the brass.

IMO - brass condition isn't a guarantee that you're under max.

4 year old account that wakes up and posts 12 times in a day on an old thread?

Did Larry find one of his old accounts?

Folks can say what they want about Ken Howell so far as his faith and his irascibility, but the man knew more about internal and external ballistics than you will ever hope to know. Studying under the tutelage of Homer Powley and his peers gave Ken Howell a leg up in a very complicated area.
He had his own gunpowder pressure testing equipment for checking individual lots of powder, and enough other test equipment to put a lot of ballistics labs to shame, including computers and software.
You come across as a very defensive, immature person who has a little bit of knowledge and no idea of the capabilities of the people on this site.

You would be much better served to ask questions and listen, not pontificate on things you only have a glimmer of knowledge about.

Ed

Wise guy: I have had it happen so I am "experienced" but not stupid because it happened once.

Yes pressures went out of site.

And I took precautions by reducing the load by 3 grains before the switch in bullets....it was not enough.

The case gave way, blew the primer,which of course is a case failure.

If I had not reduced the load by three grains do you suppose the action could have let go? I will leave that to you to speculate since you are such an expert. It certainly is not impossible.

BTW the perps were the 338 Win Mag, H205, 225 Hornady, Bitterroot and Nosler Partition in this particular case.

Not sure what your point is anyway.

There is a certain aroma wafting about.

Dang, it seems Anothergun just came on here to argue,piss, and moan.

Gee I guess If I'm all alone in my squabble, I must be wrong.

Happy hunting. Oh don't forget to debate about who has the right cartridge round yer fire.

That's the oldest post I have seen

All of these in-depth comments are important as to handloading and shooter safety. I have a number of different weights of Hawk bullets in 348 WCF caliber.
The 348 case is a strong one, but the Winchester Model 71 and later versions are lever actions. Lever actions have no sense of humor and handle adverse pressure spikes poorly.

The factory warning is not to be taken lightly. That being said, it would help Hawk to close up the base of their bullets as much as possible, within their design
and jacket material. The older original Barnes bullets were made similarly. One could see where the copper tubibin was reduced at the base, leaving a very fine hole-
sometimes the core lead was visible.

This type of thread should be repeated regularly as a safety precaution-old school or not. Keep resurrecting................

I have a full box of 35 cal. 225 grain Hawk bullets. I had bought two boxes of them and tried to get them to shoot in my 350 RM. That rifle is accurate with several bullets and loads. But with those Hawk bullets the best group was in the order of 4.5 MOA. I didn't have issues with pressures though. The diameter of these Hawk bullets were similar to the Hornadys that shot very well. I had believed that the accuracy problem was the soft jacket material and that perhaps I had pushed them too hard??? I understood that these bullets had a soft copper jacket and that might have caused the problem??? If they shot well, I'd think they would be outstanding on game. I didn't think I had pushed them hard, but I was at loss to why the problem.

If someone wants to experiment with these bullets, I'd let them go fairly cheap. I have 35 Rem's and a 358 Win and "WAS" - - considering trying that bullet in one of those. Now I don't think I'll be using them in my rifles. If no one wants to try these, they will be on a table at the Sioux Falls Gun Show in a couple of weeks.

I have been reloading for over 20 years, and reload for 5 different calibers and have never had a rifle blow up on me. What gives?

sometime a case, sometimes a action. what some fail to consider is the stress fatigue caused by overloads.one can never tell when a action/barrel might come apart. i had a small shop in california and around the display cases i had firearms,mainly revolvers that people blew up. it was stunning to listen to some that claimed to be expert reloaders tell their tails.

BU-
I may take you up on that box of 35 bullets.....have an old Model 70 in 35 Whelen.....

I talked to Andy Hill-of Hawk Bullets-this week. They have been filling DoD sniper bullet requests, which is interesting.
He stated that on a custom order, he could close the base jacket opening a bit over the core.
I have used some of their bullets, mainly in 348 WCF, which operates at lower velocity/ pressure with 225-250 grain bullets.
Have killed one large moose with one shot-270 gr bullet in the 348 Ack Imp.-probably 2300 FPS.

No problems so far. But it may be like the 10th floor bldg jumper at the 6th floor-" So far- so good". My last 348 Bullets were bonded North Fork, Alaska Bullet Works bonded-
and some original Barnes : all 230-250 grain.

One item. Hawk recommends 5-10% reduction in powder charge. Also single based powders. Bolt actions generally develop more pressure
than lever action rifles, and the latter have less room for error or pressure excursions. Food for thought.