What is the longest/deepest penetration you ever got from an expanding bullet?
What was the animal taken?
What was the bullet/cartridge/load used?
Were you happy with the result?

I would like you to supply the information and then highlight something to you later on about it all. I already know the answer, but it will mean more to you if I base the result on your info.

About 3 years ago, took a mature buck at 160 yards, almost head on. The 125gr partition, from a 264 hit the buck in the point of the left shoulder and he dropped like a rock. When I got to him, I noticed a small bump on the skin of his right rump. Cut the skin open and a beautifully mushroomed bullet fell in my hand. Can't ask for much better performance than that.

A moose, going almost straight away, at about 150 yds. It had been wounded by a hunter I was guiding.

Bullet entered just beside the anus and was recovered under the hide in front of the opposite shoulder.

300 gr Nosler partition from a 375 H&H.

Ted

Was hunting bull elk in AZ a few years back. I used a 300 win mag loaded with 200 grain NP's zero'd for 300 yards.

Spotted a bull on a hillside that I knew was aways over there.
Got a good rest turned my scope to 12 x and
set the horizontal hair on the bulls back and touched off, bullet
hit 3 feet below of where he was standing. I then set the top
point of the bottom plex on the bulls back and touched off.
It dropped him and it dropped the small cow behind him, the one I couldnt see. One shot, one bullet, two dead elk, complete penetration on both animals.

Possibly not the answer you are looking for but, long ago and far away..........

Hunting elk and deer on Dworschack (sp.) reservoir in Id. Hunting partner and I were bumbling back to camp in near darkness. A good sized 4x4 bull got up in front of us maybe 75 yds out and stopped. Partner hit him in the right rear ham and bullet exited far left shoulder. Missed bone in the rear, broke bone going out. Bullet then passed through a 6" sapling and continued on........presumably stopped by the dam some miles away.

30-06 220 gr Rem Core Lokt. Factory velocity. High SD, fairly low impact velocity, tough bullet.

JimF

The longest penetration I have gotten was with a 168 grain barnes X bullet fired from a 308. It entered near the front right shoulder. The shot was taken at about 160 yards. Somehow, the bullet appeared to have deflected inside the deer. It took a hard left-hand turn, went through the body cavity and ended up breaking the left rear leg and stop just under the skin. That dear managed to run over 200 yards before it finally piled up. I have no explanation for how the bullet veered off course once it entered the deer. It was definitely not a bang flop shot.

I've been ambivalent about using X bullets on deer size games since then. I spoke with a technician at Barnes today about using the new triple X bullets on deer sized game. He told me that their newest bullets have been engineered to expand sooner, oftentimes with in the first inch of penetration. He said that he had recently been shooting jack rabbits with them and reported that they were expanding well on them.

I just started tinkering with a box of 100 gr grain triple X bullets in my 25-06. They look like they're going to shoot accurately from my rifle but even after carefully following the instructions to go one or two grains above the maximum listed load for plain Barne's bullets, I'm still about 150 fps slower than the velocities that Barnes lists. I believe I will try them out on a few ground hogs and crows first before I decide whether or not to point them at a long-range deer this year.

Back to the penetration thing. The most impressive shot, I've taken involved a 180 grain trophy bonded bear claw bullet from a 30- 06. I made a two for one shot at about 150 yards on two mature Whitetail does. The first one dropped at the shot, while the ones standing behind her made it about 30 yards before piling up. I found the perfectly expanded bullet just inside the far side of her chest cavity.
John

OzGunScribe,

I am expecting it to be a Nosler Partition. I have several stories about same and game shot with the .375"/300 grain Partition.

One sticks out though, a warthog that I did a "corner to corner" shot, right hip to left shoulder through a lot of spine. Multiple feet of penetration, but I didn't measure the wound track.

Also a Texas heat shot on a mountain reedbuck (of all things) with a .308"/180 grain Winchester FailSafe that got parts of the hip,spine and shoulder. I actually recovered that bullet and it weighs 180.1 gr.

I was more than satisfied with those.

jim

Is this a Freudian slip that proves that to a Texan matters of the heart are just matters of being in heat?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sent a client to Africa with a 416 Rem mag and rounds I loaded with 400X. Shot the usual array including Eland and Oryx. Those two largest happened to be the south end of northbound animals and one X was recovered under the skin in the throat area. After soaking and brushing to remove excess material we have a bullet that weighs 400.2 grains. Both shots were a bit over 200 yards according the the PH. The other was same results, but complete pass through.

My personal results on larger game are Nilgai. Started them with my 300 and another 2 folks had 7 Rem Mags. All started with non X bullets. The two 7 mags were fired at over 250 yards broadside and both bullets were under the opposite skin, no shoulder hit. Both folks using 175 Partitions. I was using a 180 Partition in 300 Wtby. Shot was 180 yards in the rump. Did not penetrate past the hips but shattered both hips really bad.

Then switched to X bullets for the next trips. Have not recovered a bullet in a Nilgai since then, yet the other 2 folks with 7s and Partitions rarely penetrated totally. And lets no even laugh about my broadside contender 30-30 rounds with factory 170s. Under 100 yards on Nilgai. Never hit a bone other than a rib. Managed to fire 7 witnessed rounds before he fell over. Some of these bullets never made it to the ribs on the other side.

Jeff

As of late,The 45-70 with a 300 Barnes XFN on Elk.It went in just in front of the left rear leg and penetrated the rest of the body and exited through the right from quarter.The ole 45-70 with the new velocities it can achieve and the good bullets like Barnes/Nosler/North Fork/Woodleigh/Swift A-Frame and the Kodiak,make it better than ever.

Jayco

"What is the longest/deepest penetration you ever got from an expanding bullet?"

After skinning I took a string and made an effort to accurately measure the amount of distance travelled by the 400 grain Hornady. To the best of memory, the bullet travelled 51-55 inches. It took the brown bear in the chest and ended up lodged against the bruin's rear leg bone...just below the hip.

"What was the animal taken?"

Brown Bear...8'2" on the square

"What was the bullet/cartridge/load used?"

400 grn. Hornady RN in .416 Taylor with enough Reloader 15 to achieve 2,350 fps. Since the bear was shot at 5 paces, the projectile had little opportunity to slow until it hit the bear.


"Were you happy with the result?"

In a word...damn straight! (ok...so it was two words! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Longest penetration on an expanding bullet? For me? Muzzleloader shot using a T/C Maxi-Hunter, .50 caliber, 470 gr. HP, backed by 100 grs. of 777.

A whitetail doe, about 125 dressed, facing me at about 25 yards took one dead center in the chest. The conical, at a likely impact velocity of 1400 fps, went lengthwise through her, then hit the yearling behind her at a quartering toward angle (yes, I knew the yearling was there, but the quartering toward resulted from a step in the right, er, wrong direction at the shot.). The bullet traversed the yearling from through the front leg bone, diagonally across the chest cavity, and out the opposite side just in front of the off-side hind leg. The only bones hit was the front leg bone and rib or two on the second deer.

HUGE exit wound on the first doe, and the entrance/exit wounds on the yearling were just catastrophic. Also, the legal limit is two-per-day, so having two on the ground instantly was kosher.

I switched to 90 grs. of 777 and the 275 gr. HPs afterward. I don't need THAT much penetration on whitetails.

Gunwriters, we need a new test. Something like energy remaining after 1, 2, 3, 4, ... inches of gelatin or water.

Mature whitetail doe at a hard quarter, almost dead on facing me. The shot was about 25 yards.
Hit her square in the right shoulder. It hit bone going in, but I don't remember the specifics. The bullet was found bulging under the skin in the left ham. I'm sure if it hadn't hit the femur dead center, and broke it, it would have exited.

7mm-08, 145 grn Grandslam, 2750 fps mzl.
The bullet is a perfect mushroom, and retained 75% of it's weight.

She hit the ground at the shot.
I was very happy with the results.

No simulated results please. I have never seen the stuff and won't postulate on theretical results. You are all doing a great job and the trend I expected is already here. Can you see it?

Keep it coming and I'll explain in a few days when we get a larger sampling of data. Your data, and that is more valuable and important to you

I do not want to disappoint hunter Jim, but I used a 300 gr bullet in a 358 Norma mag no 375 H&H but its close. The bullet was the discontinued Swift in that weight. I shot a Cape Buff facing me at an angle. The bullet entered the shoulder missed the bone and ended up in a back leg. It still weighed 200 grs. I shot a BIG black bear on top of a picnic table with his head in a plastic bowl eating potatoe salad. OK it wasnt in the wilderness it was Mammoth Lakes Calif. It was in a campgroud and a little girl was pinned with her foot under the table when she fell over backwards. I was on a search and destroy mission for bad bears in the area and had my 45/70 Marlin and 350 gr Speer handloads. I shot the bad boy in the shoulder and the bullet exited between his back legs taking out about a foot of back bone. The little sweetheart took off her shoe and beat him on the nose with it. She was so cool she never moved until it was all over and then she was pissed.
-Doc-

I just spit my cola all over the monitor! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What is the longest/deepest penetration you ever got from an expanding bullet?

36 inches plus
What was the animal taken?

spike bull elk in 1993
What was the bullet/cartridge/load used?
Gary used R 22 powder, 140 Barnes X bullet, .270 Win., a 26 barreled rifle and gets a little over 3,000 fps at muzzle.

Were you happy with the result?
The first shot at 100 yds went through heart and both lungs with thumb sized hole. Elk was dead but both he and my partner didn't know it. It was on steep slope so my friend shot again as the elk ran quatering away downhill. The next shot hit the hock joint on the left rear leg, went through the paunch, ranged across chest cavity and broke the right shoulder bone and stopped under the hide. The bone in the hock took the petals off the x-bullet. The front of the bullet was a .40 cal meplat. We both have used a lot of x bullets since then. No more recovered bullets. My .338 WM with 225 Nosler partition at 2700 fps gave similar pentration on a bull moose but did't hit the hock joint first, but the moose was a much bigger animal.

Partitions and Xs work?

Large calibers work?

Bone / no bone makes a difference?

We Campfire folks have taken more end-on shots than we've previously admitted?

When I first read the subject of this thread, I thought it was going to be XXX rated.

Amen on the too many Texas heart shots. I once had a 150gr Hornady go from right ham to left jaw of a big Nebraska Mule deer.

You are close but not there yet. The trend is there.
As for your comments on the rear end shots, the reality of limited hunting and even more limited opportunity to actually get a shot, means we will all be tempted beyond reasonable caution to take the shot that is offered rather than let the animal willingly escape.

Let me quote again a theme from Bob Hagel to always plan for the worst hunting conditions when everything can go wrong and not on the basis of everything going to plan.

That was one obvious reason behind his choice of a .340 Weatherby. Those that have used one will know what I mean.

That sort of thinking is the reason government programs cost so much! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A trend that I am aware of is one that has been around for a long time. Small frontal diameter relative to weight. That can be either through minimal expanded dia. as in fail safes and X's (minus petals) or a fully peeled partition, lesser expansion due to lower impact velocity, or very high initial SD. Or.... some combination of all three. (as in 6.5x54 and 7x57 w/hvy bullets)

That trend of course is diametrically opposed to the low sectional density of the big bores. And of course the famed hard cast flat nose which don't count because they don't expand.

Hafta admit I'm cornfuzed about where you are going with this one.

JimF

That the folks who have run into that (perhaps rare) situation are very happy and relieved that they had a bullet that could do the job?

It doesn't change the cost of what we are doing in this exercise or trying to achieve. Our only variables in costs at most are a few grains of powder and a heavier or premium bullet weight bullet selection with combined totals in the extreme, still less than the first beer you will drimk in camp after the first day out.

This is not a cost issue, it is a performance issue and the results defy all the marketing hype that results from product development.

Having said that you will probably be disappointed at the simplicity of the results determined. We'll see.

The information from all the contributors is very helpful to new hunters or readers to the forum and interesting reading for the seasoned as well, so it is a good thread.

I thought of another one. This was a 100 gr Barnes bullet from my 25/06. The critter was a good mule deer elce I would not have shot. He was doing that stiff leg buck jumping thru the sage. I can not hit them when they do that but he was big so I tried my luck amd it was luck. The bullet entered at the base of his tail and we found it in his neck at the base of his head. The front petals were gone, but he folded in mid air and hit the deck end over end. My hands were cold and I tripped the trigger before I wanted. Like I said LUCK.
-Doc-

You're not in a mood to chuckle today, are you?
OK, I'll keep my responses in this thread serious.

Ok, I will play.

6'4" black bear took a 250 Nosler Partition from a 35 Whelen just under the chin and it exited the right ham. Distance was 70 yards.

One other face on shot on a 150 pound deer at 120 yards, bullet was found against the hide a few inches from the tail. This time it was a 225 Nosler Partition out of the same 35 Whelen.

Last year I shot lengthwise through a large doe with a 260gr Win Supreme Platinum Tip out of my Knight ML at 80yds. The bullet entered right on the point of the front shoulder and exited the opposite side ham. The deer still ran about 60yds, which is rather amazing--2MG

Regardless of bullet design, the the highest SD for a given caliber will give you the deepest penetration.
I perfer to use Nosler PT's for the bigger game like Elk and Bear and the BT's for deer hunting. I have never recovered a partition and only recovered 1 BT. 140 gr BT from a 280 Rem @ 3000 fps MV. Target was a large WT Deer (doe) at 150 yds. Shot entered in front of the left shoulder and was recovered under the hide between the last two ribs on the right side. The deer dropped in her tracks. I would guess that the bullet traveled through 22-24" of deer.

Regards,

JD338

I shot a 150 lb whitetail buck running toward me at 65 yds. The 130 gr X from my 7mm STW hit the buck between the eyes(not intentional) and exited behind the left ear, entered again in front of the left shoulder, traveled the entire length of the deer thru the body cavity and exited next to the anus. As far as I know, it's still going... Needless to say, it was a picture perfect bang-flop.

300 grain Swift A-frame from a .375H&H. I shot a bushbuck at 55 to 60 yards, facing me. The bullet entered just inboard of the left shoulder and exited just to the right of the anus. The bushbuck ran about 75 yards and fell dead. From the looks of the exit wound, the bullet never expanded at all.

JD338

I'm missing something. Regardless of bullet design the one with the best Sectional Density will penetrate the most??

So if we pick the highest SD bullet IE a given weight for caliber, lets say 200 grains in 30 cal. Then whether its a hollow point, plastic tip, premium, regular or fmj design they'll all penetrate the same and out penetrate a bullet with a lower SD.

Even in the case of a slightly higher SD but in a frangible bullet vs the next lower SD (IE 200 vs 180 for example) in something like an X an the 200 will out penetrate the X?

I'm sure I must have missed the point here. Its easy when we are all just typing away.

Jeff

Greater SD doesn't always mean greater penetration, especially with the better bullets.

I would count on a 150 X-bullet in an 06 to penetrate a heap more than a 165 grain Sierra Gameking.

Thought about one more.

30/06 with 180 Nosler Partitions, range 110 yards.

I hit a giraffe in the neck and it exited the neck. How's that for penetration <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I shot a lot of game with X bullets coming out of my 300 WBY and only ever recovered one bullet- a head on shot at a 200# mule deer where the bullet traveled 30" of neck and back- breaking the bottom bones off the spine before going through the spine on a diagonal about 10" and the continued to plow along the edge- breaking more bones. Of course death was instant and it ruined some good backstraps but none of the quarters. Broke one petal off- I think the bullet weighed 145 grains or thereabouts.

One of the few other bullets I recovered was a 200 grain Barnes soft point- hit a bull elk facing me between the front legs. Bullet went through the heart, and ended up in under the skin in the opposite hind quarter- Only about 60-70 grains were left. I can't imagine any bullets out penetrating X bullets of any version or similar weighted fail safes.

Jeff,

I was not trying to make a comparison of a core-lokt vs barnes x bullet. I was speaking more along the lines of bullet weights. A 200 gr X bullet will out penetrate a lighter X bullet, same with Nosler PT's etc. My thinking of the origional question of this thread was higher SD bullets may kill better than the lower SD bullets, by giving maximum penetration.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

JD338

Culling pigs in Calif with a .35 Whelen I have had plenty of body length exits but two stand out as memorable.

First was a 280gr Swift Aframe at 2300fps. I was crawling through a tunnel on my hands and knees when I ran into a boar at bayonet range. I tried to get out of the way and my shot actually angled up into the pig. The shot went between his teeth right under his nose and exited right over the top of his tail. It took out almost a foot of vertabra and needless to say it dropped in its tracks. The pig went 347lb gutted so Im estimating about 400-420 live weight. Bullet penetrated about 64" from teeth to tail. I have actually quit using the Swift due to a lack of expansion on most shots but have kept the last ones for wading into the brush following up wounded pigs.

Second was also the Whelen using a 250Gr Hornady at 2500fps. Another large pig (scale stopped at 300, guessing 350) was hit by friends 7mm Mag perfectly in the chest and choose to ignore it. As Mr. Piggy was going straight away I gave him one in the seat of the pants that destroyed the left femur and exited out the right side of his chest between the shoulder and neck, missing any additional bone. The hit on the leg bone left lead fragments weighing 60grs but the destruction through the chest was amazing. I imagine it wasnt a huge piece of bullet exiting but it gave everything it had. Penetration was about 53".

The 250 Hornady is my go to slug for culling and at one point I had almost 40 pigs without needing a second shot. On anything less than 300 pounds it exits most of the time on normal shots.

As expected based on construction, the two bullets behaved a bit differently but I was extremely pleased with the performance of both.

My 45LC is "in the mail" and I hope the local pigs will be sampling some hardcast LBTs in the near future.

JD338
Much more clear now. Your wording "regardless of design" had me royally confused. I'd assumed what you meant, but ya never know.
Thanks for the clarity.

Jeff

I have seen at least 4 feet of expanding-bullet penetration on several occasions:

1) Mule deer buck taken with facing shot at 30 yards in lodgepole timber with a 7x57, 140 Nosler Partition at about 2800. Bullet struck the dimple at the base of his neck, and was found under the hide of his butt.

2) Medium-size Nilgai bull was shot with a 140-grain Fail Safe from a .270 WSM factory load (about 3000 fps chronographed) at 200 yards, also a facing shot. Bullet struck top of shoulder and exited opposite ham.

3) Big but not huge Alaskan bull moose was taken with .338 Win. Mag and 230-grain Fail Safe, muzzle velocity about 2800, range about 100 yards. Also a facing shot, with bullet striking inside left shoulder and ending up under hide at front of pelvis. (Bull was standing with front feet higher than rear.)

4) Cape buffalo running, angling away at about 100 yards. 400-grain Nosler Partition from .416 Rigby landed about 15" behind rib cage, angled across chest and broke far shoulder. Found under hide of shoulder.

5) Bull gemsbok, quartering toward me at about 175 yards. Bullet was a 200-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip from a .338 Winchester Magnum, started at about 2950 fps. Bullet struck near shoulder and spine, and was found bulging the skin of opposite ham.

6) My wife shot a gemsbok on the same trip, facing her at about 200 yards. Bullet was 165-grain Fail Safe, started at about 2900 from a .30-06. Bullet entered low on neck, cutting carotid artery and bottom of spine, and ended up bulding the skin at the back of one ham.

Our friend Charlie Sisk recently shot a Texas wild pig estimated at 350 pounds (by Charlie, who used to slaughter pigs) in the ham with a 9.3 BS wildcat, using a 286 Nosler Partition at about 2400 fps, range about 80 yards. The bullet exited the pig's face, having broken a lot of bone of various sorts in between.

Have experienced great penetration with Trophy Bonded, and Barnes X of all types, but have never shot them into anything where either the animal or the angle resulted in 4+ feet of penetration.

MD

My story is pretty boring, 165 gr Speer hotcore form a 30-06 at about 2800. Smallish whitetail buck angling away from me got excited just as I pulled the trigger, he jumped and I shot him right in the middle of the left ham, broke the hip, through the gut bag out behind the right front shoulder. The shot was about 75 yards.

This is a very interesting comment. Do you all remember the Speer 275 grain .338 caliber bullet that was the choice of Elmer Keith, especially for use in his .338/378 KT?

That Speer bullet "had" (it is discontinued) a Sectional Density of .348 which is very high for the caliber, any caliber in fact.

If SD had any value for soft point or expanding bullets, it has been proven conclusively, that SD was not useful in determing the penetration ability for a bullet simply because SD is drastically reduced upon impact, largely becoming irrelevent.

SD is theory and marketing jibberish only, it has proven worthless by the innovation of contemporary construction.

The reality is, that SD was originally used as a mathematical formula for comparing solid (FMJ) bullets in determining suitability for large dangerous game. It has no qualifying benefit when applied to expanding bullets and a Failsafe weighing 230 grains or a TSX weighing 225 even though nearly 20% less in bullet weight, would out penetrate anything the old Speer could do and shoot a whole lot flatter getting there.

No, forget SD, that will lose every argument, as is should have been killed of as a writer topic a long time ago.

Please keep these coming and I will give you my summary next week. The information you are providing is extremely valuable to the readers so please do not fall off this one.

hard to tell for me, since I have only recovered two bullets from Alaska moose; the rest have zipped through, no idea of how far. However, not even bone was able to spot the following bullet:

230-grain FS loaded to produce approximately 2,800 fps on my .338WM. The moose was broadside, so I aimed my rifle so that the bullet would hit right behind the shoulder bone, a little low. This bullet broke the near shoulder bone, clipped the arteries right on the heart, hit and broke the far shoulder bone, and exited.

I did recover one FS bullet from the largest moose I have shot so far. This one was used on a quartering-away shot. The FS hit the right frontal ribs on its way to the far shoulder, broke the far shoulder bone, and my hunting partner found it on the hide (far side) when we skinned the moose.

The next recovered bullet was a 250-grain A-Frame, loaded around 2,600 fps (a little slow). This bullet stopped on the far shoulder muscles, but dropped the moose on the spot.

I'm a bit questioning of Mule deers response. Again it may simply be me misreading the info. I've fired more than my share of Partitions before the X came along(and a few failsafes too that aren't too shabby either). I continued to swap between Partition and X for a few years. What I found there seems contrary to MDs experience. The X always outpenetrated the Partition. Make no mistake I'd take either and not feel that there is a problem. But I prefer the looks of the few recovered Xs I have found and really like the ones that I dig up out of my backstop(its nice to have a personal 600 yard range right out the back door)

Jeff

While I feel it could have been stated more clearly, I'm pretty sure he meant "for equal construction." No, even then it doesn't predict perfectly--but nothing else does either.

Just because something doesn't mean everything, or predict the outcome perfectly 100% of the time doesn't mean it's worthless. A lot of variables go into the equation and none of them predict everything all by themselves either. That doesn't mean they're worthless--just that there are many variables and no single one is so important you can disregard the rest. If bullet construction meant everything we could hunt Cape Buffalo with 223's and X bullets. Just because that wouldn't be wise doesn't mean bullet construction is also worthless marketing jibberish.

SD isn't "theory" any more than the number you get with a bullet in your caliper or on the scale is. It's a very real physical attribute that does have real meaning. Just how much meaning for penetration obviously can be and has been overstated in the past. All else is not always equal.

The only time my 300 has failed to exit a deer or antelope was a 130 XBT on an antelope. I'm pretty sure I could live to 100 shooting 180 or 200 X's and never have that happen on a similar shot.

While this thread is about terminal performance, SD is just as important for exterior ballistics since for any shape, a bullet's BC will be directly proportional to its SD.

Rost--

I believe you did misread the info. Go back and read it again, this time noting that I did NOT say that the Partition will out-penetrate the X. I merely listed the samples of the longest penetration I've seen, which is the assigned task here.

I have shot a lot of animals with the Barnes X (plain, blue and Triple) and am enormously impressed with its penetrative powers. One in particular was an elk where a "puny" little 140-grain bullet broke both shoulders and exited the other side, something I've never seen with a Partition lighter than 200 grains. But total elk penetrated only measured about 16", so it could not be included here.

I just haven't happened to shoot anything with an X at such an angle that over 4 feet of penetration occurred. Some penetrated 3 feet, surely, but then they disappeared into the atmosphere. The list I provided is the samples I've seen of the deepest penetration, not how many X's I've shot entirely through animals, which is considerable.

MD

What JB said- I haven't had the opportunity to shoot many animals in a manner that allowed a lot of penetration. I find that you ruin less meat when you don't try to do this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MD

Ah the net. Its so hard to type it correct or for me to read it correct. I was not totally sure of the main jist at the end. I now understand it totally. My mistake and my apologies. I'm usually either reading or typing to fast.

THanks, Jeff

150-160 pound whitetail doe (yes, this was a BIG 'bama doe).
90 yards.
handloaded plain ol' 140-grain remington .264 bullet.
6.5x55, approx. 2,500 fps.
texas heart shot. bullet went exactly, precisely, perfectly up the pipe. exited the brisket. slap dab fall over dead.
reckon 42-48 inches of penetration. no bullet recovered. i reckon it fell down somewhere in the bullock county woods.

I would also question the summary dismissal of SD as a factor in penetration. As in all comparisons, there are variables that affect the outcome. However, SD is simply a number that relates the relationship of weight vs. dia.

In a non expanding bullet, a higher SD will outpenetrate a lower SD given velocity and shape as constants.

In a non expanding bullet, higher velocity will outpentrate lower velocity given shape and SD as constants.

In a non expanding bullet, a pointed shape will out pentrate a blunt shape given, given SD and vel as constants.

In an expanding bullet, the list of variables must include bullet contruction. Among other scenarios, one can imagine two bullets of equal SD, shape, and starting velocity, but one with "soft" construction, the other "hard" Upon impact, the soft bullet expands to greater dia. therefore becoming a lower SD projectile. That softer bullet will pentrate less than the hard one.

We can also consider two bullets with identical SD, shape, and contruction, but different impact velocities. In this case, the higher vel. will generate greater expansion and therefore lower post impact SD. The greater expansion, (lower post impact SD) may actually factor out the penetration advantage of the higher impact velocity, and cause the slower bullet to penetrate farther than the faster one. This explains why say a 6.5 x 54 MS might out penetrate a 264 WM when all other factors were the same.

Obviously, the variables are so significant, that definitive statements are difficult. I would however, state that when all other factors are totally equal, higher SD offers a great indicator of penetration potential.

JimF

Hey Ozzy
The longest penatration was white tail shot in the hind quarter going away and out the neck cleaming out the middle. Now I will step up to the plate and take a swing at the answer.
I beliave that bullit speed has everything to do with it. The bullit will shatter, come appart ect as speed increases. I see alot of people like speed here I prefer what works and inprove that. over the years I have seen bullit technology increase greatly but the FPS of my 06 has stayed the same I just have a better selection of what I want the slug to do. sum it up, more speed more seperation ( fragmenting ) ( shattering )
My 2 cents
Bearbeater

As velocity increase, esp. in the smaller calibers, the greater the effect of sectional density and premium bullet design (partitions, A-Frames, Xs). As both velocity decrease and bore size increases, both sectional density and design decrease in importance. Once bore size reaches a certain point (over, say, 9.3mm), increased velocity may actually be a net negative, and bullet design is less and less important.

Thus, a heavy, large diameter projectile (say, a .458 diameter slug of 400 grains and standard design) will penetration further and more easily at a slow velocity (say, 1500 fps) than will a smaller, lighter, but roughly equivalent SD projectile at even twice the velocity (say, .308 caliber 220 grs. at 3,000 fps, for comparison purposes), unless the lesser caliber uses a premium grade bullet.

Real world comparison on similar ballistics:

405 gr. SP .45-70 fired at roughly 1400 FPS factory load
vs.
180 gr. SP .30-06 fired at roughly 2800 FPS factory load

Both classic big game cartridges and loads. Which will penetration further without the use of premium bullets?

So, small and fast, and premium, can go the distance through game, but big, and slow, regardless, often does the same.

I already know the answer.

If I swat a critter with a Nosler Partition in the right area critter dies.

Next question.......................

People this thread is starting to digress, one could argue SD, BC , taylor knock down values etc,etc, ad nauseum, but one variable is always constant- that no scenario is exactly the same, no bullet will hit at exactly the same point on exactly the same animal. As John said he was only answering the question, so lets stick to that.As for me i've only had about 16" of penetration on a 200lb black russian boar, and that was with a 44mag and the 250gr Nosler/partition gold load, bullet was recovered in the off side grisle plate and weighed 231gr and lost one petal.This was out of a Win 94 carbine with 20" barrel and the pig dropped at the 30yd shot.

btt

A point to AussieGunWriter:

The "sectional density" figure, I'd like to state - is STILL a usefull one - and should NOT be relegated to the trash-heap of bullet discussions. Here's why.

People who dislike the term, point out, that is not really an accurate one - as it only applies to a non-deformed bullet. Scientifically speaking - that's correct. It's also true that bullet type, construction, weight and impact velocity can all affect a bullets ability to penetrate - but still, I think the sectional density figure is usefull. Here's when:

The average person doesn't have the ability to shoot thousands of game animals in the field to compare real world penetration abilities of bullets. The average person doesn't even have the time or location that will enable penetration tests using test media on all the bullets they wish to use.

The average guy has to rely on a printed number to make some determination as to which bullets are best for which circumstances. When comparing the same bullet's ability to penetrate an animal (or a test medium, for that matter) I think one can learn a lot by comparing the sectional density figures.

All things being equal - a bullet (of the same type) WILL penetrate futher if it has a higher sectional density figure than it will if it has a lower sectional density number.

Can you think of an exception? If you compared, for instance - a Nosler Partition or a Barnes TSX - can you think of an exception to the "higher sectional density figure providing greater penetration" rule? Can you think of an instance when a lighter bullet of the same caliber, launched at the same speed - will penetrate more (in the same substance) than it's heavier brethren? I know I can't.

It stands to reason that, as my Dad would have stated it - "the longer the stem on the mushroom - the deeper it'll go" - it has more "push" behind it.

Heavier bullets - of the same construction - penetrate deeper. This is what "Sectional Density" figures show. While not being totally "scientifically correct" - this figure is still a very usefull figure for the average person, to guesstimate the penetrating ability of a bullet - and as such - is a usefull concept to use.

I would personally speaking, even go further - and state that sectional density figures are useful when predicting penetrating abilities of the same types of bullets across different calibers - but that's a whole other debate. For another thread.

Just because something isn't actually scientificallly correct -doesn't render it useless, when it comes to understanding something in a generalized manner.

We hear about, and use "ballistic coefficient's" all the time -and see them listed as a number, so that we might compare a bullet's ability to fly flatter when having a higher ballistic coefficient than another bullet will fly if listed with a lower number.

Those figures too, are not "scientifically correct" as "ballistic coefficients" are not one number - but are, in fact, an endless and infinite series of numbers - that change as the wind resistance and declining speed of the projectile changes. But still, it's a usefull concept to use one "average" number to show a bullet's "ballistic coefficient". It's also a useful term for the average person, when trying to predict how one bullet will drop when compared to another. Scientifically accurate - or not.

It's the same with "sectional density" - it's still a good way for the average person to predict how similar constructed bullets will penetrate things. Scientifically accurate - or not.

More people, not less - should pay attention to those numbers.
They are usefull.

I actually agree more with bearbeater above regarding a bullet being more effected by velocity.

During ballistic seminars, I highlight the fact that an egg has the same sectional density in the box, or dropped on the floor. If I throw it on the floor as hard as I can, it shatters more, no rocket science there.

I am reminded of a cull I did some years back when Barnes began introducing .224 caliber X bullets. I was shooting at animals so far awy using a .223 that I have hold over of 4-5 feet above the animal and scored hits that when investigated, still had full penetration even though on paper, any .224 caliber bullet is far below the expert gun writers' assessment of adequate sectional density, regardless of caliber.

What I maintain, is that construction has a far great weight to add to a bullets ability to penetrate and even more than the influence of velocity, which is always there whether the shot is a finsiher or on the horizon.

SD is a good argument and will never be finished conclusively because most people who commented have some validity in their comments so cannot be rulled incorrect.

I like to provoke thought on the matter, so I guess I succeded. I hope you enjoyed it.

Is it "Velocity" or "Sectional Density" or "Bullet Construction" that make a bullet penetrate? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Left to right.
510 Woodleigh-2041fps - 1742fps- 21.3 Penetration - 23.6 Penetration



Left to right.
350 Woodleigh RN-2200fps - 1686fps- 13.4 penetration - 17.7 penetration.



Left to right.
350 speer-2300fps - 2224fps - 1923fps- 18.1 penetration - 18.9 penetration - 26 penetration

Hummm! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jayco

Shot a very large whitetail doe head on with a 140 Grand slam out of a .264 . The bullet pentrated over 48" broke one shoulder, the pelvis and nearly carried a leg with it. Never had one of the 140 grand slams stop in a deer. Never had a partition stop in a deer either. reflex264

hey aussie
I thank you for the credibility endorcement. I was a speed freek in my reckless youth but found that the penatration was not there. I experimented and found the mediun speeds worked best and the lower speeds worked if I used a heavier slug. thanks
Bearbeater

haven't shot anything in years, but on the farm....45-70~never recovered any bullets, 16ga slug..ditto, 44 mag....ditto....even once a 22-250 seirra BTHP thru the lugs on deer.....complete penetration.....and ONCE, the 8mm mag....frontal shot on 8pt buck at 75yds.....instant field dressed..ruined ALOT of the meat with bullet fragments...traded that rifle off, and went back to basic calibers :-)
now it's just arm-chair hunting....but i still am a 38-55 and 45-40 man!

i have had 200gr partitions, shot out of a 300win mag at a muzzle velocity of 2900fps, hit the left rear femur shatter it and contiunue through the abdomen to end up exiting behind the front shoulder. when these bullets hit bone they sometimes penitrate further than if they just hit flesh