What do you think? I want a field-grade 12ga SxS for quail, grouse and pheasant and my budget is not a cent over $900 all up...including tax, shipping and Brady.

Where do I go with this? Ithaca Flues? LC Smith? Ithaca/SKB 100/200/300? Charles Daly/Miroku Model 500? An old Simson Suhl? One of the many brands from Turkey?

I don't like heavy shotguns and I don't mind loading light 7/8 oz loads for quail and the occasional clay target, so I'm thinking max weight 7 lbs.

In addition - it either has to have choke tubes or be bored IC/Mod or, if one of the typical older shotguns with Full/Full or Mod/Full, have a low enough purchase price so I can pay my gunsmith open up the chokes. Or as I did with a Miroku 20ga O/U a couple of years ago, have someone machine the barrels to add thin tube chokes.

There it is - what do you think?

I have a Ugartechea 28 ga that weighs five pounds and I shoot it well. I like them, I think a 12 is still maybe 6.5 pounds with a straight grip and a splinter forend.

I have an Uggie Model 30, 12 ga. that's a solid hunting and no frills gun.

You'll have to find some of your mentioned list used to stay below $1K.

DF

My son-in-law bought one of these in 20 ga. a couple years ago and just loves it...

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/bobwhite-202-b-case-hardened/

Have to say, pretty darn impressive shotgun for the dollar. The action is even color casehardened. Definitely worth a look.

czech,

If you were considering a 16 or 20, I was going to suggest a Winchester 24. They will never quite be "good enough" given their enevitable comparison to the model 21, but I think they make a good reliable "blue collar" man's SxS! The 12 gauges however are just a little too bulky in the hands for me.

I'd vote for the SKB or the Miroku. I had an OU Miroku 20 gauge that was a real nice gun... don't know why I sold it other than I like SxS's better! If the Miroku SxS's are anything like their cousins, they are probably pretty nice... ? like Browning BSS's perhaps?

I've got an old Stevens 16 gauge, model 311 or something like that. Yours for $999.00 + shipping - good guy discount of 15% + FFL fee - irritate liberals discount of 12.5%. Haven't a clue what that adds up to, let me know if you can figure it out.

It has perfect bores, metal and wood about 90% +/-.

I think you are on the right track already. Browning BSS is a nice gun, tough to find bud nice. I like Miroku they do a great job. The SKB is worth every penny. You didn't consider the AYA made in Spain. Hard to beat some of your choices.

I like the CZ as well.........

I have a 12 gauge BSS and love it. It shoots where I look, but it is not a particularly light shotgun. I also have an SKB 280E 20 ga and it is light as a feather and handles beautifully.

If I were you I would be looking at either a new CZ or an SKB on the used market.

I'd look for a used 280 SKB (the English/straight grip style) on G/broker. With their 25" ic/mod, they're really handy.

The used market may be the OP's best bet. The BSS sailed past $1K a while ago. SKB's are really nice, solid guns, but used would be the only way to go with the budget and that would take some luck.

DF

I wish I had never sold mine. Like a dummy I thought I HAD to have something else.

Ed

I'd look for a Sauer Model 60, their basic boxlock. Most are quite light yet still balance well, and never shoot loose. Mine weighs 6-1/4 with 28" barrels. It's choked the typical "old German" tight and tighter, but it sounds like you're handloading anyway, and it's easy to make spreader loads. Mine's my favorite shotgun, and have used it on everything from doves to turkeys.

Wish your budget was over $900 because http://www.hillrodandgun.com/archive.php has a potpourri of SxS's for sale. I've owned two from there and have been very pleased. His shop is a huge walk in vault one floor up from a bank. If you're ever headed by Bozeman, call ahead and see if you can stop in. You'll be in SxS heaven.

Alan

I love my Suhl built SxS.

Fortuna, Simson, Sauer, Merkel are all Suhl built, plus a few others.

Solid guns.

Yep, any of those will do. I suggested Sauer because there seem to be more of them. And unlike light British guns, they very rarely loosen up.

A few months ago, I picked up a nice Merkel model 8 for $650. Deals are out there if you are patient.

CZ / Huglu's are pretty decent guns for the money. Nothing fancy, but I've never had a problem with them. If money was no object, I'd buy a Merkel

Well, yeah. My wife and I both have CZ/Huglu side-by-sides, and I have a Merkel. There is a lot of room in between.

A good Simson for around $850-$1,000 is about on par with an $1,800-$3,000 used Merkel.

Patience and some shopping buy a good importer on your behalf will get you a very fine SXS at a reasonable price.

I just bought a nice Ithaca N.I.D. 12 gauge for $400.00 off GB which I thought was a steal for a nice old American made double. The Lefever Nitro Specials and good doubles at reasonable prices.

Consider a Winchester Model 24

Though a huge fan and long time owner of Ugartechea's I would look here.

http://www.757arms.com/

If I were in the market again for another double in 12 bore, it would be a Fox Sterlingworth. The 12 bores are still reasonably priced. You won't get a mint collector for your price, but it will be a great field gun that carries nice, handles like a dream, will give you great service, and the pride of ownership, the Finest Gun in the World.
Bfly

I have a 12 gauge SKB 100 that I might consider selling. I would rate it at about 90+ percent. PM me if interested. It is a great shooting gun.

The SKB is a very good choice and a bit of a sleeper to most folk who don't know them. That said they are starting to go up in price. I would put them on par or better than a Browning BSS or O/U for fit and finish. I've owned a 500, 200E and 2-100s. I currently have one in 20ga choked IC/M. I like the 100 best as it is priced better and doesn't have auto ejectors. I'd rather just pull the empty from the chamber than pick it up or have to cover the breech to keep it from flying. My only dislike for the SKBs is that they do not come with double triggers. They are a very good deal for what they sell for.

I would consider an L.C.Smith Field Grade, or a Fox Sterlingworth. An honest example of either will leave enough money on the counter for a pile of shells if you have $900 to spend.

I too like the German and Japanese box locks, and will concede that perhaps they offer the biggest bang for the buck. I've owned a couple over the years. The field grade Smiths and Foxes (not to include the faux-Fox Savage/Stevens 311's) possess that little bit more nostalgia factor tied to American hunting traditions, IMO, and for me that's the tie breaker. (Sorry 311 fans- they are hell-for-stout but lack grace, IMO.)

Sauer model 60: cableas

$799 - and that's with Cabelas $700 mark-up!

Hater.

But I will acknowledge they lack everything save for function (most times). It makes it easy to carry them into nasty places in nasty weather to do dirty deeds dirt cheap. In the real world I think they are worth about $250. Maybe.

My other SxS is a Webley & Scott 20.

Have handled a few of the SKBs off and on over the years and they have earned a reputation of being well built.

However, like most American made SxS the fly was barrels that weigh more than necessary. Most are short and fat. Some longer, but still fat, which does nothing for balance or liveliness. Lean barrels-and for myself they would be at least 28in and 30s wouldn't make me run away-are what make a field SxS or O/U come to life. Quick enough for the snap shots yet still smooth for crossers.

Unfortunately few American doubles of recent manufacture were made with any serious thought towards balance.

Then again, they gave us what most wanted in that most have never handled long and lean.

I dunno how stout 311's are in general, but I shot a 20-gauge loose during the 80's.

I love the old American doubles myself, and have owned a bunch, including Foxes, Elsies and Ithacas--and have a very nice Ithaca Flues 12 right now. But the early ones (like the 1911 Fox I had for a while) often don't have modern buttstock dimensions. The 12's also tend to be on the heavy side compared to European guns.

Another I should probably mention as a possibility is the original Beretta Silverhawk. They were basic but very good boxlocks, and you can still find them for under $1000.

I use a CZ Bobwhite 20ga. I thought the screw in chokes were a nice feature. It handles well and looks pretty nice (from about eight feet away .) Yes, they make nicer shotguns but the CZ gets the job done.

You can occasionally find the Fabarms Lion for $1000 or less. They're in various configurations: Pistol grip, straight grip; single or double trigger; 26, 28, or 30-inch barrels. They have a hell-for-stout locking system and very good barrel regulation, which sometimes seems to be an overlooked virtue.

Yeah, the Lions are pretty darn good guns. Not the most graceful in the world, but good guns nonetheless.

Oddly enough, I've encountered more poorly regulated over/unders than side-by-sides. Both can obviously be out of whack, but I suspect many manufacturers take regulating over/unders less than seriously, because it's supposed to be easier with them.

Some around the thousand dollar mark and some a little more. I'd save up the extra $600 or so. The unadorned Urgartechea is an excellent SxS.

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugartecheagrade1boxlock1.html




http://www.doubleshotguns.com/used-shotguns-side-by-side.html

A lot of votes here for SKB, I just want to caution buyers to pattern the barrels before you go hunting with it. The barrels did not hit near the same place out of my SKB that I bought new in 1972. Of course it could have just been a lemon and they have had a lot of time for quality control since then.

I have not priced used SS shotguns in a long time, can you still find a Beretta for a reasonable price?

Depends on ones definition of reasonable and compared to what.

Beretta semi-autos are going for $1400 these days.

An old Dr. buddy of mine has a 26" S/S 20ga Ithaca that he bought new in the early 70's when he was a big Quail Hunter. It's choked Imp. & Mod. He let me hunt with it quite a bit when I was in High School & I could always hit pretty much anything that flies with it.
I've been trying to buy it from him for 35 years & he still won't sell, even though he hasn't hunted with it for 25 years. I just love that little S/S 20 ga Double! Maybe someday he will sell it. I keep hoping....

I'm just too cheap to buy a new Merkel, but I'd love to have one of their little 20 or 28ga SxS. I don't bird hunt much any more except for the opening week of Dove Season, here in TX, so it's just hard for me to justify spending a lot of cash on a shotgun that will just set in my safe 95% of the year.

I've got an old Savage 311 12ga SxS that I had cut down to 20 inches for a house gun for the ranch house. I hate the double triggers, and it kicks like a frickin Mule!
I use it about once a year when one of my Nephews wants to go Duck or Geese Hunting. 3" steel shot doesn't seem to have done any damage to the barrels after all these years. It's a shooter, and works well, but damn it's ugly

Most readily found would be the skb mention here several times. I have had a couple and found them to be very nice guns. For upland the lighter 100 and200 models are the choice. For SC I liked the heavier magnum model I had. Tried a fox model B and an earlier 311 and both as mentioned were stout but clubby. Recently bought an older ugartechea model 30. A pretty nice light 12ga upland gun with nice handling properties. Of current guns my buddy bought a 20 ga CZ bobwhite and it shoots and handles well. He's had it about 5-6 years and hunts and shoots casual SC and hasn't had any issues. Just my .02

Several folks have mentioned the SKB doubles, and I've shot a couple of M100s - a 20 and a 12. In fact, I probably have fired over a thousand rounds thought my wife's 20ga which was originally choked M&F. Soon after she got it, I had the chokes opened up to IC & Mod. This double has held up extremely well and seems to be very well built - my main complaint with the SKBs is that they're missing the second trigger. Another thing to consider, IIRC, is the bores are chrome lined and some 'smiths may not want to work on chromed bores.

Others have mentioned some of the older, less prestigious European doubles and IMO they can be good deals if you shop around. Besides the ones mentioned, I suggest you keep an eye out for one of the Husqvarna 310 doubles, either the A version or the slightly fancier AS model. These doubles were very well made, especially those from the earlier 1900s up until WWII. I have a 16ga 310AS that still locks up like a bank vault and it was made in 1914! Yes, they were built choked tight and tighter with the short & steep forcing cones typical of that era, but a competent shotgun smith, like Mike Orlen, can open up the chokes or install tubes, plus lengthen/polish the forcing cones so it patterns better with modern shotshells. That's what was done to my 16ga 310AS and it works great! Here's a pic of my Husky taken on a pheasant hunt last year:


BTW, there is a 12ga Husqvarna 310AS currently for sale on GunBroker. It seems to meet several of your criteria. Disclaimer: it's NOT my sale, nor do I know anything about the seller or the particular gun, but if you want to check it out, here's the link:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=369446183

Good luck with your search!

The SKB's are nice, and stout too, but I prefer twin triggers. My boys use the two SKB's I own.

Another somewhat obscure American made double that can be had relatively cheap is the Iver Johnson Hercules. It was Iver Johnson's attempt to break into a higher grade of gun than what they were known for. Nicely fitted and finished wood with 'modern' dimensions, color case hardened boxlock receiver, a simple mechanism that guaranteed reliability, and pretty good balance. Unfortunately the gun buying public never got past the Iver Johnson name and sales lagged until it was discontinued during the Depression. Nowadays one finds them either "rode pretty hard and put away wet", or in pristine condition. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground. Nice ones can be had for $4-500, and are IMO a great value for the money. The one I have is a delightful shooter, and I find myself sneaking it out of the house often even though I have a bunch of more 'prestigious' shotguns. Don't ignore it if you spy one for sale.

CZ Bob White and the Best is the Ringneck and can be had for under a grand

Reading through this thread makes me think I should dig out some 16 gauge shells and my Merkel or Fox Sterlingworth, put the dog in the truck and head out to the farm.... I'll bet if I called my brother he'd close the office and grab his Elsie or Ithaca and his dog, and meet me there.

I am a huge fan of SxS doubles and have shot them since I began hunting (some 50 years ago). I believe you will be best served in the used gun market.

My first choices would be the L.C.Smith or A.H.Fox guns, but I am a real admirer of the Spanish doubles. AYA is probably the best known and top quality, but many of the less expensive and lesser known guns are a great value as well (and can be had for a song). The down-side to the Spanish guns (for me at least) is that they typically come with an exaggerated "beavertail" forearm. I much prefer the traditional "slinter" forearms or at least a milder form of the beavertail (I know they call it a "beavertail", but does it have to look like it was just cut off the beaver).

This may come as a surprise, but I really like the "brand name" guns made by Crescent Arms. Best known is the American Arms Knickerbocker, but you will find them with lots of different brand names. These were very well made, but inexpensive guns when originally made. The "trick" is that most have been used very hard. If you can find the rare, less used Crescent....you will have a true prize.....for very little money.

My own upland game gun is a super clean Crescent in 16 gauge. Nice checkering, sidelock action and light weight. In fact, for your intended purpose the 16 gauge might be something you should consider. Ammo is harder to find and often a little pricey, but the cost of 16 gauges is likely much less than a similar 12 gauge.

The Crescents were pretty darn good guns! My wife has a 16-gauge sidelock that's a "genuine" Crescent, marked that way.

I'm also an admirer of Spanish side-by-sides, but AyA's have gone up considerably in price, even used boxlocks, having been "discovered" by shotgun loonies in the past couple decades. Better bargains these days are the less-known makers, especially those who went out of business due to the Diarm deal. My 10-gauge is a very nice Armas Erbi I picked up for such a low price I was almost (though not quite) embarrassed about the deal.

My wife loves her CZ Canvasback OU 20Ga.
If the Side by sides are anything like their Over-unders then they would be a great buy for the money.
One nice thing about CZ is they use a receiver properly scaled for the cartridge.

Too many people turn their noses up on guns like the Crescent's and lesser known Spanish guns because they don't impress like the better known guns. That's good foe those like me.....and I can buy a great gun for less money than their quality should bring.

I have two Crescent's at present. A really lightly used 16 gauge that weighs maybe 5 1/2 pounds and carries and kills like a gun worth twice it's purchase cost.

The second is a .410 in 90% plus condition. This gun is sweet as Crescent built their guns on properly sized frames for each gauge.....something even high priced gunmakers don't always do. It is chambered for the older 2 1/2" shells instead of the 3" guns most often seen today, but that is OK with me. The shorter shells kill just as well at the ranges that are proper for the .410 bore.

My 12 gauge field gun is a high grade AYA that has the unusual combination of ejectors and a single non-selective trigger. Was told that these guns were set up that way for live pigeon competition. Don't know, but it is deadly in the field for anything that flies.

My 20 gauge is a Spanish made gun marked Marixa Eibar. Have no idea who the real maker was but it looks a lot like the Sarasqueta's I've owned. Great balance and light weight (proper size frame) but is cursed with one of those oversize beavertail forearms. Been meaning to correct this "flaw" by carving it down to a splinter style and recheckering.....but keep putting it off.

My only Upper and lower shotgun at present is a cool Sarasqueta 12 gauge that has an aluminum frame and trim stock. It weighs just under 6 pounds and is a joy to carry and shoot with 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. loads that are perfect for upland game. I did try it with 2 3/4" Short Magnum loads and it "bucked up a might" as my daughter used to say. That's OK as these loads are a bit too much for the lightweight frame (in my opinion) and I have better suited guns for the duck blind anyway.

Yes, I am a real fan of the lesser known guns from Spain as well as the American made Crescents. Can't find more value for the money in my opinion.

As I mentioned earlier I have had a couple of skbs in the past but currently have a ugartechea 12ga that I bought here on the fire. I had the pad replaced and the lop lengthened and the chokes opened to IC & M so it fits pretty well. A couple of months ago I found a 20 ga skb model 100 at a LGS and took my 12ga up to investigate a possible trade. As Battue mentions the plain ugartechea box lock is a pretty nice gun and once I got them together and could handle them together I decided I liked the 12ga with the double triggers and extractor better and abandoned the idea of a trade. So far I am happy but I hope I'm not kicking myself someday as those skbs are pretty cool little guns.

Good choice! That's what I've been shooting since 1987 and I've killed more than a few birds with it(1961 20Ga, 26", double triggers).

I bought a very nice 20 bore Armas Erbi whilst living in Kansas in 2000 for a song. A nice, proper piece.

EdM,

That sounds like a sweet little shotgun! Would love to find one myself.

You might check this site out.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=3&page=1

Early Stevens guns (pre-Savage take over) can be very good values too. The only downside to them is generally poor stock dimensions by 'modern' standards.

In the end, if I were limited to but one shotgun it would be an L.C.Smith 12 or 16 gauge, 28-30" barrels choked M/F, with a sack full of spreader loads to provide 'choke versatility' when needed. Late 20'-1930's vintage to take advantage of by then better stock dimensions.

At the end of the day, with the plethora of classic American field grade doubles, and European, Italian, Spanish, and Japanese guns, there are a lot of choices- and all are more-or-less good. Thinking about it, it would be fun to be a newbie with $1000 in my pocket and embarking on a quest for a SxS shotgun. More fun, say, than shopping for a new sofa.

Check out this Crescent double. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../1/WTS_Double_Ended_Crescent_Wren#UNREAD

Now that's versatile! You wouldn't even be limited to one gauge....

I favor SxS shotguns for my hunting. For my CT hunting of pheasants and woods walking I like 20 ga. It has been enough for me.

The Bernardlelli Gamecock on the left has been easy to hit with. The Ugartechea next to it is new to me and it's neat. Each of them are light at 5.75# however the shorter barreled Ugar. make it easier to swing. Both have straight grips, double triggers and tang safeties.

Neither were easy to find once I made my mind up what I wanted.

I had an Armas Erbi 20 gauge boxlock for a while. Pistol grip, single trigger and tightly choked. Decent, light weight gun but don't like single triggers or pistol grips on my "carrying" shotguns. I bought it for $250 and traded it on a Grulla 20 ga sidelock that cost 12X as much. I still have the Grulla.

28" barrels, minimum, for me.

My favorite upland game gun is my Sauer drilling with it's 24" barrels!

The 20 ga Ugar. has 24" bbls. The Bernadelli's are long at 27.5".

I like them all.

What is the best type of non-toxic shot available to run through an older double? I have an Elsie and am looking at maybe a Sauer drilling to use at the lease. We always have a few ducks in on our tanks late in the season.

Every Crescent I've seen around has been shot loose. They certainly do wear out. Same for the Savage 311s that I've come across recently.

I'd vote the newer CZ models with the crossbolt for a well-proportioned gun that will stay tight for a lot of shooting.

If you handload, Ballistic Products ITX Original shot is excellent non-toxic shot for older doubles. If not, Kent Tungsten Matrix is good but really pricey--and Bismuth shot is back again in ammo made by the Spanish company Rio. It's also pretty pricey.

I bought a very nice Miroku 20ga side by side (not Charles Daly marked) with dual triggers choked full and improved cylinder for $300 a few years back. Deals are out there to be had. The store had it marked low because, according to them, nobody wanted a shotgun with two triggers and extractors.

Which is one reason that combination is my favorite. Though I also find two triggers and extractors generally more desirable in the field. Two triggers provide an instantaneous choice of barrel/choke, which can be handy in some hunting, and extractors are somewhat handier for those of us who bring back all our empties, for whatever reason.

I appreciate the utility of ejectors on a double, but I doubt I'll ever own one so equipped unless I get a ridiculous deal on a desirable gun. For hunting, I'm going to be taking my empties home with me so less time hunched over looking in the tall-grass for the hulls is a good thing. For high volume shooting (if I ever get a chance to do so; haven't yet) where speed of reloading is a factor, I'd likely get a Benelli semi-auto and call it good.

I have one of the same Miroku Double SXS shotguns , like new, but in 12 ga.

bought a 12 ga model off of the fire here just a couple months ago to be used as a gift for my son who is finishing up his Eagle Scout rank. made a dandy gift!

Exactly.

Passed an SKB in a rack about 10 years back. Price was right but I already had an early Fox w 30 inch tubes that I liked very much.
Bought a Churchill 10 ga 32 inch after not buying a Stoger Zypher I looked at about 9 times. No comparing the two. But I do love wacking a goose with that blaster now and then in the corn. I read way too many Sherman Bell articles on the big ten and just feel the need to load for one cause I can.
Close friend has his grandfathers Stevens. It came down thru the inlaws side of his family. We call it the cloud duster after his granddad and it gets an annual hunt for the memories.
Taking out any of these and breaking a clay target or twenty always gets a conversation going. Much more so than any OU I own.
Enjoy your choice.