Seems like the number one thing that people do when rebarreling or accurizing a gun is to have the action trued to some degree of another.

My understanding is basically you are trying to get the action, bolt face, and barrel all square to one another, and lap the lugs.

Why couldn't the factory send out a squared up action/rifle? Seems to me it wouldn't cost anymore, just adjust all the machinery correctly before you slap it all together. Of course I am not a machinist, so I probably don't know what I am talking about, but it would seem adjusting machines to a certain tolerance would make everything squared up from the get go.

Input?

The nice thing about modern manufacturing is every part fits every other part. there tolerance built in them that allows this, but is the same slop that leaves something to be desired in the final fit.
There is also tool wear. The cutters and grinders used on CNC tooling will hold very good tolerance for a while then wear sets in. The manufactures will resharpen them and keep useing the same cutters until they no longer produce parts within spec. Just good manufacturing policy, keeps costs down. The problem is, one part could then be at min tolerance and the next at max. They no longer fit as precisely as they could.
I would imagine the makers could produce true actions, but a lot of hand picking and fitting would be involved which is just what they are tring to avoid.

The cost of truing an action is additional to mass produced specification and that is why it is not a factory standard.

That is also why the custom and semi custom vendors exist, to cater to that market segment.

If you know a lot about barrels and can afford to test or modify them and throw them away, you will find that some shooters like to have a firm tolllerance fit with threading and others like a loose thread fit that only binds tight on the final torquing.

Barrels can be ordered based on length, profile, taper, lead length, chambering, threading, headspacing tollerance, etched for barrel changing to predetermine lock up position, fluting, lapping, finish, crowning, twist and anything else you can think of.

The factorys make sausages. You can turn your sausage into something specific to your liking by modifying sections or parts of the rifle from stock to barrel making it very difficult for sausage makers to cater to all levels of appreciation and check book flexibility.

The action truing you speak of is actually one of the cheaper alterations you can have performed but I would suggest that it be a standard request every time a barrel is changed.

AGW

Good input guys, thanks!

I guess that is one thing I forgot, how liberal their tolerances are. Within spec could mean a lot of things.

I have heard it said that $100 spent at the manufacturer becomes an additional $300 in final cost once all of the distributors/wholesalers along the way add their markup. So if we want the kind of accuracy that comes from truing, we may be money ahead by doing it at the end of the supply chain.

Think of the Remington 40X as an example of trued gun. Current retail is nearing $2000, IIRC. I can get a trued Remington slapped in a Mickey for less (and probably have more).

The best thing you can do for yourself if you are into accuracy, is to learn how to free float a barrel, bed the action, fine tune or change the trigger and glue and lapp the scope bases and rings.

These few things can be done in a couple of hours depending on the compounds you use and the weather for drying and you can even fudge that with a heater, but it will contribute to accuracy or to be more "accurate" (sorry) in my statement, contribute to consistency in accuracy than any other goup of activities, often case, that also can mean changing the barrel.

The reality of many factory barrels, is that they are much better than they have ever been and the gains a hand lapped match grade custom barrel will never be realized by teh average rifleman especially under field conditions.

(I just made a little bet with myself, I hope I don't win)

AGW

There you have it. Why should everybody pay for something that maybe 1% of the gun buying public has a need for and would derive benefit from? Even the "untrued" rifles coming out of the factories today are accurate beyond the capability of most of us, but if having the action trued is what floats our boat, there are any number of people willing to take our money to do the job.

Simply put, purchase price is more important to the buying public than quality. How many average Joe's are willing to pay $1000 for a 1/2" rifle when they can get a 1" rifle for $500? Not enough for the big three to increase their quality, but enough to keep gunsmiths employed.

I am familiar with machining and manufacturing, and to tighten up tollerances costs more. In reality what happens is that when you tighten up your tollerances, there will be a bunh of rifles that previously would have gone out the door that go into a re-work or scrap pile. Odds are it is cheaper to simple produce another gun than to pull the barrel, run it in a special re-work line, and then run it back through the production q/c and the rest of the line.

I'd also venture to say that for the $ spent, more accuracy will be gained by the care with which the chamber is cut than any other machining opperation.

So writers,

Isn't this a quality issue?

I've seen a half dozen Tikka T3's that group under 1/2", in fact I haven't seen one that was worse.

Spot

Joe-

You hit the nail "mostly" on the head.

Most American manufactures set tolerances so great that one gets a very sloppy product if one part is at max and one part is at min tolerance. The best example is American cars. Only 1 of about seven (+/-) comes out very good or great. This is what has earned Japan its reputation as a great car manufacture since the early '80's. Each year, it has worked to reduce allowable tolerances/variation and therefore increased the 1 out of 7 ratio. Very few American manufactures have followed suit. Their focus is on the short term bottom line instead of making a quality product over the long term.

For more info, see:

Deming

One thing I don't agree on is disregard for quality aftermarket barrels.

Just because a gun shoots good, doesn't mean it has what I would consider a good barrel. I have a Savage that shoots sub MOA, but it fouls and gets copper build up awful.

Now, if you are just a once a year shooter before hunting season, then factory is all you will ever need. But if you are really into shooting and handloading etc, a premium barrel is where it is at.

Especially if you are needing to replace a barrel, why would you skimp and get a factory when you can upgrade? I was at my smiths and he showed me a "custom" build he did for some guy, and the guy used a factory barrel. Now why would someone pay for an action, trigger, and aftermarket stock, and go cheap on the barrel?

I think Joe hit the nail on the head. Over the years I've sent more than a few rifles out to be worked on and a new tube installed. I'd pay a premium fo this kind of quality ( after twickin' with a few Rugers and a couple of 700's ). My problem is this: How would I be sure I was getting what I paid extra for?..........Essex

DG
There was never an attempt to disregard or denegrate the aftermarket barrel as an option. There was however, an attempt not to totally disregard a factory barrel without doing some preliminary work to extract the accuracy potential from that barrel.

The accurizing I alluded to is cheap to do yourself though the knowledge is not commonly available.

One area gun writers fall down badly, is on bedding knowledge as even our most highly profiled writers commonly write about sending a rifle off for bedding.

The most prolific writer I have seen over the last couple of decades who does occasional articles on bedding admits, he has bedded about 50 stocks in his career. I have done more than that in a year and shot every one to ensure that it achieved what it is supposed to and then rebedded anything I wasn't happy with and I still know I am a babe in the woods compared to others who know a lot more than me.

I know a man for example ( my mentor) who has had discussions with both Westley Richards and Holland & Holland about bedding rifles and was told by both companies that he knew more about bedding that anyone they had ever spoken to and more than they could contribute to in discussion.

This is real knowledge and it came from being well healed, buying several rifles every week, bedding and accurizing each one and hammering them at the range over the next week with the best handloads and shooting I have ever witnessed and then trading them again the next week, for another batch.

He usually bought several rifles in the same caliber, make and model and could then determine manufacturing consistency as many rifles were many serial numbers apart and not from consecutive production runs.

All this was done in between custom match grade rebarel jobs in just about everything that has a reamer cut. Knowing people like that can completly shatter your ego if you get too big for your boots.

Writers are usually the most knowledgeable people from their immediate peer group. That is what often inspires confidence to begin having a go at writing in the first place.

It is axiomatic that being a published author, does not qualify anyone as "the" authority on anything. An enthusiastic hobbyist will commonly "shine" compared to a known authority because most "authorities" get their information second hand from the originator, (supplier, manufacturer, marketer) and regurgitate what they have been told in a way that makes it sound first hand and expert in presentation to the readers. (The art of writing I guess)

Sorry guys, that's real life.

Ol Joe and Bend.

I read your comments and I find I must add my two cents.

Joe,

Many CNC machines are capable of adjusting for tool wear. This is something that has been around for quite a while. Many of these manchines con hold tolerances down to "one tenth" ( 1 /10,000 of an inch) if they so desire. The machinery is capable of adjusting the tooling everytime it was called upon to make a cut. It does not mean that our firearms manufacturers are holding tolerances that tight. It does cost a great deal more, as was stated in this tread. I will concede that other tooling like reamers could wear and seeing there is no adjustments possible a gun can go out with a badly cut chamber.

Brad: It is true that the "Big Three" auto manufacturers hit rock bottom in quality in the 80s. This is when the Japanese cars managed to get a large market share. I disagree with you that it is still true with the current crop of American cars. The American auto industry has gone to war against outside manufacturers and they have done quite well. Many believe that today's American car is equal to cars made elsewhere. Of course we have to compare cars of equal cost.

Back to the rifle issue. It IS amazing that so many factory "sloppy tolerance" rifles can be made to shoot with only minor tweaking. Custom and production firearms or other products will always have a performance gap.

no flames intended......Ross

This reminds me of a quote I often heard while going to school,
"Those that can............. do
Those that can't.............teach
those that can't teach....write"

This little bit of wisdom was oft quoted by a popular Chemistry professor.

I do not mean to say that it applies in the case of many gun scribes, but it must be taken into consideration the many and varied talents required to be a writer.

First and foremost he must be literate . He must be able to communicate with the written word. After being in the workforce for thirty years and running crews of up to 33 persons at a time, and having those crews replaced with new workers three times a year. I have come to appreciate how rare this capability actually is, even at some levels of corporate management. Not only must the gun scribe be able to record his thoughts in a coherent manner he must also express them in an entertaining and interesting way.

He must also like to read a bunch so that he can keep up on the musings of his many competitors. It can be tough to sell an article if one of your peers explored the subject at depth just last month in another magazine.

You gotta be able to smooge with the editors and publishers, attend their functions without embarrassing them or yourself, and impress them with your refined intellect.

Many of the most accomplished gunsmiths and those with the most desireable gems of information in the firearms industry just might not have the talent to put their thoughts to paper in a manner that makes them understandable and entertaining to read.

This seperates the field of gunwriting from most other disciplines. The gunwriter is not writing a technical manual for his professional peers. He is writing for John Q. Public, you and I.

I would like to say here that I truly appreciate the informative and intertaining gunscribes. You know who you are!

There's a corollary to that one in the business world:

Those who can...do,

Those who can't...well, they manage.

Helps explain a lot of the boneheaded moves we see on the part of corporations, including many of the gun manufacturers.

savage bolt guns are, in effect, "trued." that's the purpose of the floating bolt head and the barrel nut system for headspace adjustment. what's remerakable is that this so-called cheap method is so effective. no one will tell you that savage barrels are any better than remington or winchester or ruger barrels. but savage's method wrings the best possible out of an efficient manufaturing method.

Out of 20+ rifles of various manufactures, I have had only ONE rifle that I could not get to group 1" at 100 yrds with simply handloading, trgger adustments, and/or freefloating the barrel.

I currently have 3 bone stock Remingtons that will do 3/4 at 100 yards with hand loads and a 3 lb. trigger adjustment.

The only custom rifle I had was completely trued by a reconizable gunsmith. It would shoot 1/2" all day. But with only ONE load. It took me and him a year to find it.

Most factory rifles will shoot better...than the shooter.

I've come to the conclusion that the only reason for a "custom" (true action/rebarrel) is because you want something that is not being produced. Like a STAINLESS 280 REMINGTON 700 with a sportor Barrel Contour in a Remington "Classic" stock. Is that too much to ask BIG GREEN? After all it is a 280 "Remington"!

GB

To answer the question as best as I can.........It's not money, time, effort, machinery, or technology that prevents the factory gun from being trued; it's merely a case of ignorance.

The firearms industry is still living in the WW2 timeframe. Their equipment, mentality, and machining techniques have been obsolete for decades.

The only real excuse for buying a gun that isn't accurate enough to be considered "trued"; is that there is no excuse.

The firearms industry has a mindset that won't allow them to think outside the box. The use of measuring probes, SPC (Statistical Process Control), robotics, pallet changing equipment for CNC machines, and the list goes on; prevents them from reaching the 21st Century.

The equipment that is available today would allow a 20 man shop to compete with the big 3-4 any day of the week. 75% of the work would be done with automation and the finished product would be lightyears ahead of what you can buy now for less money. It's right at their fingertips, but you have to be exposed to this element in order to understand that it's possible.

Will this change in the future??? Not likely, but one can dream as a consumer.

Owning and operating a CNC manufacturing facility for nearly 13 years has opened my eyes to a lot of changes that could be made to our big guys in the top 3-4 manufacturers, but they're doing the way they always have and they seem to be poking along. Average consumers don't know the difference when they pick up their plastic-stocked, bead blasted, plastic bottom metal rifle. Furthermore, they don't give a damn. They're looking for a rifle that goes bang and something they can afford.

The automotive industry, in comparison, is much different....Every couple of years, the public demands the next wizbang gadget or gizmo to aid in their comfort, security, speed, or economic way down the road. If they don't get it from one manufacturer, they'll find one that does have it. They'll pay top dollar for it and think nothing of throwing 2,000-10,000 dollars down the tube each year in depreciation to obtain it.....Why??????? Cause you can finance it.....For how much per month????......Ohh, about the same as you'd spend on your non-trued Remington, Winchester, etc.

What's really a shame is how far along automobiles have come in such a short time, as compared to how long firearms have been around and how they've advanced......UHHH....Let's see.......Mauser did great things in 1893-1898...Run the math on that one for a minute.

The short answer is: $$$$$.

Yeah, but the automobile industry isn't marketing a product that will last a lifetime or two to a shrinking, aging market.

Actually, they'd spend less money doing it right the first time. Less labor, which is the number one expense in any manufacturing facility, would allow them to do the job better for less.

Matt Williams is exactly right. It;s ignorance and lack of imagination, not dollars. With a modest investment in the right equipment, the big gun makers could economically produce trued and more accurate rifles. It's just like the situation with factory pillar bedding. Everyone assumed that factory rifles could not be pillar bedded economically at the factory, until Savage showed that they could. Savage rifles usually have good accuracy out of the box, as a result.

I think the reason is simple. Most people that buy a box gun don't expect much better than what they get already. Until the demand is there and sales drop there is no motivation for the manufacturers to change anything.

Then there's the basic lack of shooting skill of the average Joe Hunter. Most people can't shoot up to the accuracy level of a factory rifle as it is. If a person can't shoot under 1 MOA with a perfect rifle he's not going to be hampered by factory rifle.

Steely, brass, and Trigger,
The answer is still money. You can look at it from either angle. They do not want to invest the money they may not recoop or they feel they can come out the same in the long run without making the change. Big companies are first and foremost in the business of making a profit. If a change in a product that is going to cost them money is not great enough for them to perceive the customer will provide them comensurately more profit in response to the change, they won't make the change.

To answer the original question. They are trued. Within a certain tolerance. Bullets weigh within a tolerance, jackets thickness is within a tolerance, concentricity of loaded rounded is within tolerance.
The average hunter is using a rifle he inherited from his uncle Joe who never cleaned the barrel anyhow. I hunt with my in-laws who don't even check the zero of their rifles before hunting season. They have no clue how to do it anyhow.
A factory rifle is more than good enough for them.
It would be a waste of money to have a 1/2moa thousand yard gun to shoot whitetails at 50 yards anyhow.
GWN

The true waste is a manufacturer who is capapable of producing such a rifle and not doing it.


The whole situation isn't just a matter of making a more trued rifle, with better tolerances.......It's about making a rifle that's as good as can be made within the average joe's pricerange. They're not doing that now. They're not even attempting to.

When you put a man on the floor as a general laborer for about $10.00 per hour.......You just spent enough money to have a CNC vertical mill on the floor. This is based on per month expense. Of course you won't have your CNC showing up late for work, taking breaks, eating lunch, etc., but I'd say it's a pretty fare trade-off.

If someone on the outside wanted to fund a project to bring a new major firearms maker onto the scene with serious technology, the other manufacturers would be scrambling to catch up, but it would be too late.

Look at archery for instance........They're using state-of-the-art technology to produce bows and components....Every year they come out with better, faster, more accurate bows, as well as better sights, stabilizers, and so on.

The archery industry isn't nearly what the gun industry is as far as volume sales, so why can they do it, but our old faithful firearms companies can't???? Back to my original answer......IGNORANCE.

Matt,

Sounds like a campaign speech to me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Do you want to let us know how your barreled-action project is coming? Is that a rifle yet?

I am still looking to source a reliable rifle for the journeyman guide or PH at less than custom prices.

thanks...jim

In a hundred years (hopefully there will still be shooting and hunting in America) when someone rattles off the list of great American firearm entrepeneurs - Eliphalet Remington, Winchester, Sam Colt, John Browning, Matt Williams - can we say that we knew you personally, sort of? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Seriously - good thread here. I know little about machining techniques but I remember Jack Belk used to lament how a $3 gizmo used in a water pump is held to tighter tolerances than the average American firearm.

Matt,
I would like you to PM me and let me know what a CNC Machinist with a gunsmithing background would be worth in your company. I am getting fed up with living in Minneapolis and the long cold winters here. We get to apply for a once in a lifetime moose permit. Lottery drawing for bear tags and the woods is overrun with Yahoos waving Remington 742's every November.
Great White North

"It's about making a rifle that's as good as can be made within the average joe's pricerange. They're not doing that now."

I would agree with that.