Mule Deer has mentioned using spar varnish as stock finish and I've got a couple stocks to work on soon. I've always used numerous hand rubbed coats of Tru-Oil in past and I've been perfectly happy but I'm also open-minded and respect where the advice about using spar varnish comes from. The question I have is how best to apply it as a stock finish?

The rifles in question are quite different and this might affect the advice. One is an old JC Higgins 45 (Marlin 336) that will be a complete redo. The other is a Cooper 52 Classic. The Cooper is only a year old and it looks great but it kills me that an hour in the rain on Saturday raised the wood grain and took away the smooth feeling. If it takes on water that easily I can't take is seriously. I want to topcoat it and seal the wood so that I can take the rifle afield and enjoy it without worry about rain turning the walnut into a sponge and affecting performance.

Any advice on how to apply spar varnish would be appreciated.

Fraser;
Good evening to you sir, I hope other than needing to refinish a couple stocks this finds you well.

Here's a couple quick links to posts on the subject at hand.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/52631/Sitka_Deer_stock_finish

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._School_me_on_stock_refinish#Post9137494

Hopefully there is sufficient information there to get you going in the right direction sir. Good luck with your projects and all the best to you in your hunts this fall.

Dwayne

I'll always suggest practice pieces of wood..

Thin down the first coat with paint thinner/mineral spirits. Two coats on the inside if your going that way, the third coat leave for the exterior of the stock. Don't be shy about thinning it either. The third coat still needs to be thinned, but not as much as the previous coats. You can go for a 4th coat if you like.

I use 3M 413q wet/dry sandpaper, 360 grit. Different types of sandpaper can affect your choice of grit. Otherwise consider 400 grit. Generally, letting it dry for at LEAST 24 hrs, preferably 48, will allow each coat to sand easier and provide a more smooth finish. High humidity areas may take even more dry time. You want the varnish to "dust up" when you sand it.

Choose satin sheen unless you must have semi-gloss or gloss. Satin hides more sins.

Home Depot sells Minwax spar urethane, it's good stuff.

Casey

I had the same thing happen to a Cooper Model 54 that got rained on. The grain was raised. So, without trying to remove the oil finish, I applied some Wipe On Urethane over the oil. Bad idea. It didn't penetrate the oil uniformly and looks bad. I finally just put a lot of gun stock wax on it and will live with it. Fortunately it's not the nicest piece of wood I ever saw and it's a hunting rifle anyway. Still, I wouldn't pick this rifle for a really rainy hunt if I could predict the weather in advance.

Chem Pak Pro Custom oil and don;t look back. Brownell's is the place.

I used a lot of marine varnish on boat wood, that was mostly out it the weather. In that application, it needs to be re-done periodically. One technique used by those varnishing boat wood is to first coat the wood with a marine epoxy, then sand smooth and varnish - with several coats of vanish and sanding between coats.This produces a very attractive finish, but I don't know if it would be the right finish for a gun stock. I've always oiled my stocks.

What EdM says is it. I've used Pro Custom Oil with great success, & I'm no pro. I'll cut it back to a satin finish with Brownell's Triple 'F' rubbing compound. TruOil is also very good. I'd probably skip the Spar Varnish product.

I re-did the stock of my old M70 about 10 years ago. The original finish was nearly gone and the rifle required re-sighting every season. The bluing was also in terrible shape, but fortunately unpitted. It was a classic gray rat.

I used MinWax matte spar poly. I thinned the first few coats 50-50 to aid penetration and that mix was also what I applied to the checkering to prevent filling the grooves. I also used several coats of the thinned product on the inletted sections. I fine sanded the finish coats between applications to aid adhesion.

Since the re- finish job, the rifle has been remarkably stable. The finish has a very attractive dull sheen that shows off the grain and it is very durable. I had the rifle re-blued about 1985, and that, combined with the spar poly stock finish makes the rifle look better than many much newer ones. When I tell people that the rifle is over 60 years old, they can't believe it.

The spar poly may not be classic or even the absolute most durable, but it's easy, looks great, and really weather-proofs the wood.

A) Don't bother thinning it. It won't penetrate the surface of the wood any better, and just prolongs the building up of coats that are needed for total grain/pore fill.

B) Plan on a lot more than just 4 coats. 8-10 is more like it, sanded with 320x or 400x between coats. Sounds like a lot, but with proper sanding between coats you'll actually end up with a fairly thin finish. Rub out final coat and wax to bring it to a pleasing luster rather than a glossy shine.

C) Ignore the matte/semigloss varnishes. They have silica in them that gives it the dull look. Much better UV protection is afforded by glossy varnish (and that is the main killer of a finish). See above re: final coat.

D) Mikewriter's advice is spot on. Starting with a first coat of epoxy is great.

E) I too am liking Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane pretty good, if I can't use Epifane's or Captains spar varnish.

F) I wouldn't use any type of "oil" finish if I thought there was a chance of subjecting it to foul weather. For a safe queen that sees the rifle range once or twice a year, yeah maybe.

G) Done right, a good spar varnish finish will look not unlike a classic "handrubbed" finish when done. In fact a lot of old guns were done this way and are described as having oil finishes. You'll play hell achieving total pore fill with oil, and end up with something that will shrink over time or actually wash out of the pores in a heavy rain. Best to fill with varnish or epoxy before oiling, and if you are going to that trouble, you might as well just keep going with the varnish. In the end you will have a finish that will actually provide a decent barrier to water fenestration, unlike what you get with an "oil" finish.

H) As far as touch up of boo-boos incurred in the field, I would rather repair a varnish finish than an oil finish.

3dtestify,

Modern spar varnishes and stuff like Brownells Pro-Custom stock finish are all blends of natural oils and urethane. In fact the Brownells catalog says the Pro-Custom is "oil-modified urethanes."

There are differences in quality and the exact ingredients, but the basic composition is the same. I know several well-known (and extremely well-paid) custom stockmakers who use spar varnish of various kinds. The Pro-Custom finish is a very good product, but so are several spar varnishes.

The question of whether or not the thinning aids penetration can probably only be answered with a bandsaw, but it definitely improved the flow of the finish in the inletting and achieved my goal of not gunking up the checkering.

I also don't know exactly how much UV protection the matte poly provides. I do know that it has held up beautifully for ten years, in spite of be used in all kinds of weather without any special care. The matte finish has a good feel to it and doesn't "grab" the skin on my baby soft cheek when I shoot. My method may not be ideal for a canoe paddle or the trim on an old Chris Craft, but it has worked out very well on my rifle.

I'm with you all the way on oil. It's too much trouble for a look that can be accomplished along with better protection with other methods. An oil finish is never done. The only reason I would consider one is for restoring a fine old collectable for reasons of authenticity.

I spent some time formulation and making Spar varnishes and Poly urethane finishes, commercially. I have used all of these finishes in one form of modification or another on the gunstocks that I have done, professionally. Hardness of the finish and durability are the concerning factors that most sportsmen consider. Little has been said about the wood surface that is being coated. Hardness can be achieved with a "softer" finish by making sure the stock is very dry and well sanded before sealing of said stock commences. This is why I have a nice Lane table with nothing other than Tru Oil on it that has lasted for 40 years with nary a scratch. Getting the various finishes to "penetrate is no trick. Thin about 10pts thinner to 1 part varnish and give it a few coats liberally. You can get the polys to penetrate in the same manner and the rest of the process is nothing more than filling grain and building coats for the end result. The solids in the finish dictate what end result you wish to achieve. UV protection goes hand in hand with the reflective properties of the various finishes. A glossy finish reflects sunlight better than satin and flat. A UV inhibitor is added to the exterior polys to better facilitate protection. Spar varnish has historically been less susceptible to UV damage so the inhibiting agents are used sparingly or not at all.-Mike

I use the Minwax urethanes on my cabinetry, so am comfy using it on stocks because I have a good idea of the colorization.
There is nothing really wrong with thinning one or two penetration coats, or mixing some tinter (the Polyshades stuff) if you want some pop in the grain. Tinting? Takes less than you think, so be careful.
However, I haven't really found it necessary to thin the urethanes at all. I am often amazed at how much finish the wood will soak up on initial and second, even third coats. It's also important that you do a nice job of sanding beforehand, down to at least 240 grit, because the urethane is "compliant" and not really a surface filler unless you sand and sand and sand each coat.
But the final result is good, durable and pretty.

I painted houses both interior and exterior for over 20 years and I've found Dalys Seafin Teak Oil to be best for wood stocks.
http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_seafin.html

Easy to use, wipe on with rag, wait a little while, wipe off excess and let dry over night. Then repeat, with multiple layers.

Leaves a beautiful satin finish, seals against water and uv resistant.

In the mid 60s, I made a set of target grips (thumb rest and palm rest [of sorts]) for Dad's Ruger Mark I. I finished them with TruOil and sheen. The pistol rode under the seat of Dad's farm trucks for over forty years. After his death, the pistol came to me. The blue is almost gone now, but the stocks look amazingly almost unscathed.

I'm about to apply finish to new unfinished Marlin 336 stocks. Unless I am convinced that something out there is better, TruOil it is to be. It is a beautiful set of wood and the product will bring out the color and figure.

Jack

SBTCO,

More than one of the top professional stockmakers I know has recommended Daly's Seafin.

This Jon Sondra Boyd sporter was finished with Pro-Custom oil (Tung Oil/Urethane) from Brownells. The finish wears great and is really tough, tougher than Tru-Oil.

Always a sucker for a new product, I may give SeaFin Teak Oil a try. Pro-Custom takes some finesse to apply for optimal results and it's slow dry. SeaFin sounds easier to use.

DF

teak oil doesn't dry fast either but I like it. Don't know any trick to a fast , beautiful, protective finish!

Yeah....emphasis on "fast."

I would be curious what your actual job description was while making finishes...

Solvents are added to finish to make them easier to apply and to extend their shelf life. If anyone suggests it is to enhance penetration they have no idea what they are talking about. A 10:1 ratio of thinner to finish is so far beyond ridiculous words cannot do it justice.

Test it anytime with any commercial finish by coating opposite sides of the same board with thinned and unthinned finish and then cut in two after drying. There is NO increase in penetration after the most modest thinning.

Wood acts as a filter and simply strains the finish, leaving the finish on the surface while the solvents dig deep. The solvents inside cured finish do nothing positive for the wood.

UV protection has a lot more going on then simple reflectance. Suggesting a gloss finish is better than a silica-induced matte finish simply because the gloss has more reflectance is laughable.
art

OK, I'll wade back into this....

Varnishes, urethanes, polyurethanes, form a surface barrier and are waterproof. Urethanes are just a updated and generally improved version of old fashioned varnish.

Oil (and I mean true oils) soak into the wood and repel water.

Oils inherently do not have much UV light resistance and it is difficult to add UV light inhibitors.

Like a lot of so called "oils" Seafins Teak Oil is a is another version of spar urethane--read the specs. In essence it is prethinned for you.......

True oils can do a good job of protecting wood as long as the item is not exposed to much UV light. or other chemicals, or things like salt spray, etc. But oils are very easy to touchup or add another coat when needed.

Polyurethanes are inherently harder than varnish/urethanes, dry faster, bu do not hold up to UV light as well, and can be quite picky as to any other finishes or chemicals in/on the substrate, and because it is very hard, it is more brittle. If poly turns milky, you have something underneath that "burned" it.

Spar urethanes tend to be more flexible than other polys or varnish--a desirable quality for a gunstock. Oils definitely make it easier to iron out dents or scratches than coatings that form a surface barrier.

I would thin spar urethane no more than 1 part thinner to 2 parts urethane for the initial coats. The final coat no more than 1 part thinner to 3 parts urethane.

I've not yet tried this on a gunstock, but flat spar urethane applied as a last coat can give a look and feel that approximates an oil finish. Works on on other woodwork when I have tried it anyway. Flat spar urethane is hard to find on store shelves, most likely will be an internet proposition. There's always a chance an old-timey neighborhood hardware store would have some.

Casey

Casey
Sorry, but you are WAY out of touch...

Oils do not do much at all for water, except turn white to let you know it is there. Bare wood absorbs less water vapor than oil-finished wood.

Finishes seldom produce a waterproof finish and the more solvents added the less waterproof. If finish requires thinning to apply it is likely starting to cure in the container and should be tossed, or at least not used on a quality item.

Salt spray is no harder on wood finish than clear water.

Not all oils are easier to repair than all surface layer finishes.

Please define "urethane," "polyurethane," and "spar urethane" in light of the fact you correctly pointed out they are basically all the same.

NEVER use a flat or matte finish on anything you actually want to use. The flatting agents (usually silica) weaken the finish, create pores for water transport, and obscure the wood beneath... none of those are good things for a stock finish. Flat spar varnish is hard to find, because it should be...

As always, make a sample board and actually look at it before finishing anything that might take as long as a stock.

John
You are exactly correct. To help the understanding for some it might help to note the early difficulties in getting oils and urethane molecules to link up when curing. Once "modified" they linked easily and created a uniform surface...

Polyurethanes just linked up mo beta...
art

Has anyone else used this product and found it to be so easy to use?

Great thread here and I have a couple of amateurish questions. Will spray polyurethane applied over an oil based stain cause the stain to "bleed"? Same question re application over a water based stain.

I have a couple of beaten up birch 10-22 stocks that need to be stripped and refinished.

Stop it Art...

Polyurethanes have different molecule chains than urethanes, some of the same molecules, but some are different. The result I explained above. The difference is Art I know enough to do this for a living for most of my adult life, and it goes far beyond the varnishes/urethanes/polyurethanes we find at Home Depot.

In other words I've applied what I know across a wide spectrum of situations/substrates/climates using a variety of coatings over the past 40 years.

I stand by what what I said and have learned over the decades.




You are right, but it doesn't mean that flats are useless--far from it--just not as good as finishes with higher sheens.

Casey

As long as the stain is entirely dry--regardless if it's oil or water based--it won't bleed.

I have seen spar urethane/varnishes in a spray can. I don't recommend spray poly. It's not easy to get a smooth finish with any of the clear coatings out of a rattle can.

Casey

Good to know. Lot of helpful, knowledgeable people here. Thank you.

Casey
Happy to discuss this at whatever level you care to, but blowing smoke will not work well for you...

My generalization of urethanes versus polys in terms of general use by finishers at virtually all levels is correct... you can mince molecules if you insist.

I am the guy that gets called when the applicators get it wrong...
art

ETA: Why did you not argue any of the multitude of mistakes in your statements and hang it all on one bit of semantics?

Sitka, you sure do spend a lot of time trashing the opinions of knowledgable finishers in order to make yourself seem infallible. I've been finishing for many years, and know that alpine crick knows his business, as do a couple of others that you demeaned. So far, alpine crick has said nothing that I regard as wrong or off base. You, on the other hand, have. It would appear that you've been spouting a few errors so long that you now believe them to be correct. Mostly, you are correct in your beliefs. Mostly...but you spend too much time talking and are no longer listening and learning.

If you believe everything Casey said you make my point about everything you have said. Stick to specifics if you wish to challenge what I have posted and Please! Show me the first error you can find.

"Mostly" correct must mean you have several, no?

What is it with you Alaska guys?

As for correcting your mistakes, if I dreamed for an instant that you might listen to what anyone said that was contrary to your firmly held beliefs, I'd offer up some suggestions.

You just go on doing what you are doing. None of your inaccuracies are major and they won't keep you from having a good finish.

That said, it wouldn't hurt you to allow others to express an opinion that may not mesh perfectly with yours without you resorting to insults.

You made a large cluster of incorrect statements, period. MANY of those incorrect statements would increase the work and compromise the finish if anyone followed them. Those are facts.

While you list your emotions and opinions I will stick to facts. Still waiting for your first claim of an incorrect statement made by me.

Stop it Art....

I buy and apply dang near $100k in paint coatings a year--including clears like polyurethanes, urethanes, lacquers, catalyzed lacquers, catalyzed epoxies, and two component epoxies. I apply them with brush, roller, rags, my fingers, airless, cup gun, HVLP. I'm certified by Dupont, Cook's, and Sherwin Williams for their industrial coatings.

As much as any industry out there, coatings manufacturers and their engineers make claims that don't always bear out in the field. You can talk all you want about "linking modified oils", polymides, polymers, polyesters, amines and amides of every type, but it don't impress me--I've done wore out the t-shirt.

I know you have appointed yourself the official Campfire stock finisher, but keep in mind all the OP wanted to know is what to put on his stock and how to do it.

I'm done with the pissing contest Art, now focus on the original question.

If anybody else wants to ask questions, feel to ask me....or Art....then you guys can pick between the two versions as to what will work for you

Casey

Casey
Thank you for the background...

Now, why not address any of your mentioned absolutely false facts? Most are extremely easy to verify.

I stand by my facts, period.
art

...'cause none of them are false.......


Casey

Casey
Last post for me here...

I cannot accuse you of weak Google-fu because even the most rudimentary search would find you are totally incorrect.

A million a year in finishing products puts your business in the realm of the small autobody shop, congrats... The fact you use a wide range of products explains your lack of understanding of any of them... assuming you actually do use the claimed range.

Please, feel free to point out any errors I made. They will be allowed to stand because I will not address them here in the Gunwriters' Forum.
art

Come back, Sitka, come back. There's a phone call here for you from some guy named Flexner. Says he has a few questions you can help him with.

So,
what is the idea behind the sealer coats. I am understanding that these are a thin product for first few coats. Why?
I have no expertise in this other than putting a lot of spar varnish on teak and mahogany for Boats without the use of sealer. But stock finishers seam to use the sealer quite often.

I don't either, unless a first coat of West System 207 counts as a sealer coat. Perhaps it's the oil finish guys who are trying to get something approximating a a water resistant finish who do it the most.

You want resistant, and are not concerned about pretty?
I have one stock where I stripped it to death, lyed it and everything else I could think of to suck it bone dry. Then I mixed up a nice big batch of slow glass epoxy and heat-gunned it into the starved wood, endgrain and all. I was shocked at how much it soaked up before the cure started.
Sanded it, one more skim coat and sanded to a 200 grit then steel wool, then wipe with a tack rag. Done. Not pretty or showy, but maybe it was just the wood. But I sure got stable.