So, in the past weeks ive seen several posts where primers have pin holed and really cut up some bolt faces.
What I don't get is how come with a partial case head separation or even just plain normal shooting doesn't absolutely cut up the chamber walls? Obviously gotta be the amount of heat or time of burn but I just don't get the big damage on one hand and not the other? So...what forces are at play for the big diff?
Dunno. Have experience several of each and wondered that myself.
WAG: Case head separation is usually a longish crack whereas a when a primer blows through a pin hole, it creates an intense cutting gas jet that puts a nice little divot in the once pristine bolt face. The case head separation crack diffuses the escaping gas over more real estate so little to no gas cutting is done to the chamber wall.
Further, the primer does not "seal" around that area like the case around vents typically does during the brief highest pressure moment. Couple that with the fact that the primer's escaping gas has a relatively short path to follow to vent (firing pin) and it makes sense that a primer leak shows up in bolt face erosion.
Kraky, I've had some Winchester WLR primers develop pinholes in my Garand, eroding a brand-new 65-series bolt. The load was a typical Garand load, which is to say the pressure is reasonable.
I've sent two emails to Winchester, haven't heard a word back.
Winchester primers are soft. If you want to avoid punctures switch to CCI, they have a much harder cup.
My two experiences with primer pinholeing have been with WLRM. The first I assumed was a chance occurrence. The second was my fault for not discontinuing using WLRM primers, albeit from different lots.
An Internet search seem to indicate that WLR/WLRM primers tend to populate the tales of woe more than others.
I've only had this happen with Winchester primers. I don't use them anymore. I used CCI's for 30 years and never had this happen.
Your best friend in this situation is a gap. It works the same as a cutting torch. I had some leaking on my 6mm and pin sized marks showed up on the bolt face. I had Dennis Olson mill a tiny groove around the affected area on the bolt face and that stopped any further damage.
Changing the primers, finding the cause is necessary too, but the small circle around the primer area is better than the pock marks...
If left alone, and no more primers pinhole, what will happen? I had 3 winchester primers pinhole out of 30 243 shells I loaded at one time. After reading this thread, I looked at the boltface. Sure enough, there are 3 tiny pits around where the edge of the primer sits. They don't look like much, should I take it to a gunsmith or something, or just shoot it and keep an eye on it. I already have some CCI primers. I put the winchesters at the back of the shelf. Are they good for anything now (low pressure loads or something) or should I throw them away?
If left alone, and no more primers pinhole, what will happen? I had 3 winchester primers pinhole out of 30 243 shells I loaded at one time. After reading this thread, I looked at the boltface. Sure enough, there are 3 tiny pits around where the edge of the primer sits. They don't look like much, should I take it to a gunsmith or something, or just shoot it and keep an eye on it. I already have some CCI primers. I put the winchesters at the back of the shelf. Are they good for anything now (low pressure loads or something) or should I throw them away?
WIWD. Red flag the Win primers to be used only under hopeless desperation measures.
Advice from several gunsmiths and very experienced HP shooters at my club is that the bolt face pitting is cosmetic.
If you want to fix it, Do as Shrapnel suggest and have a
very shallow groove milled to clean up the pitting. Alternatively, send the bolt to Gre-Tan to have the bolt face bushed.
Another thread on bolt face pitting:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/6562776/How_to_repair_pitted_bolt_face
Oddly enough I have never had a problem with Win Primers...
Go Figure
Snake
Only time I ever saw this was with a particular batch of Remington 9 1/2's in a .270. Two primers from one box had pin prick leaks right at the outer circumference and gouged divots in a very nice LH Model 70 bolt face.
If nothing else it gave me a new respect for the power of a directed stream of very hot gas under very high pressure.
BTW, I threw away that batch of primers.
[quote=fldoghunter]If left alone, and no more primers pinhole, what will happen? I had 3 winchester primers pinhole out of 30 243 shells I loaded at one time. After reading this thread, I looked at the boltface. Sure enough, there are 3 tiny pits around where the edge of the primer sits. They don't look like much, should I take it to a gunsmith or something, or just shoot it and keep an eye on it. I already have some CCI primers. I put the winchesters at the back of the shelf. Are they good for anything now (low pressure loads or something) or should I throw them away?
WIWD. Red flag the Win primers to be used only under hopeless desperation measures.
Advice from several gunsmiths and very experienced HP shooters at my club is that the bolt face pitting is cosmetic.
If you want to fix it, Do as Shrapnel suggest and have a
very shallow groove milled to clean up the pitting. Alternatively, send the bolt to Gre-Tan to have the bolt face bushed.
Another thread on bolt face pitting:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...s/6562776/How_to_repair_pitted_bolt_face Thanks for the reply. I will quit using win primers. If it's not going to hurt anything, it doesn't bother me. I had to really look to see it anyway
CCI 400s were the culprit when my 17 Rem had problems with pierced primers. Never had a large or small rifle or pistol primer let go.
almost always use win primers and never had an issue
go figure indeed
Same here, never had a problem with them.
Get some with the right lot number.
almost always use win primers and never had an issue
go figure indeed
I have used about every primer there is and quite a few WLR primer and some of the WLRM primers. Never had a visible pit from a primer. There must be a common denominator here somewhere.
I have never had boltface pitting from Winchester primers but have had the issue with both small and large rifle primers by Federal. No! they were not high-pressure loads either just good middle of the road accuracy loads.
Anyone can turn out a bad batch of primers occasionally. Relegate the offending primers to low pressure loads or give them to someone you don't like.
drover
I've been using Winchester primers for years, the only problem I ever had was a pierced primer in my 17 Rem, it is still unknown what caused it, no other cartridge with the same load and primer lot ever did it. A hunting buddy suggested a piece of cleaning cloth probably caused it, I had just cleaned the bore and it was the first shot afterwards.
I can tell you for sure, the Winchester magnum primers are hotter than any other brand I've tested. I found Federal primers softer than Winchester primers.
Cheers.
almost always use win primers and never had an issue
go figure indeed
I have used about every primer there is and quite a few WLR primer and some of the WLRM primers. Never had a visible pit from a primer. There must be a common denominator here somewhere.
Bad lot.
It's all over the internet if you look.
I have about 800 rounds of Garand ammo loaded with another lot number, 200 or so rounds into that, plus about 100 rounds of high(er) pressure .45-70 loads, no problem.
I keep all of my ammo stored with pertinent data on it, and if I see an anomaly, I will refer to my notes.
Common lot number to the problem.
Guess I have been lucky then
I recently had this problem too. A mate gave me a few hundred WLR primers he no longer needed, and I loaded some to try in my .338 Federal with proven ( mild) load of Win 748 reduced by half a grain. At the same time I loaded up a few test rounds for my 06. While they seem to give a slight improvement in accuracy over The Rem 9 1/2 I've used without a hitch for 40 years, in both rifles I had gas leaks at the edge of primers and gas cutting of the bolt-face.
Once upon-a-time Winchester primers were nickel-plated, these looked like pure copper and had varying degrees of discolouration and seemed to flatten heaps more than the Remington primers. I won't use them again! As one other poster said, it gives you a new respect for the power of high-pressure powder gases.
Winchester had some bad lots of primers a while back that really caused some problems. A good friend had 3 rifle bolts affected from the same lot. After about 6 months Winchester and my friend finally agreed on a settlement. You will have to contact Win for the lot #'s. I never heard anything about the problem from Winchester, but I don't buy Win primers anymore.
I had this happen a couple years ago with starting loads for a .270. Little pinholes at the radius between the sides and primer face. I was wracking my brain to try to figure out what I had done wrong until I starting to see reports on some different forums with pictures that looked exactly like what I was experiencing.
I've seen about ten different lot numbers mentioned.
Guess I have been lucky then
Yea, it's just been some recent lots. The WLRs that I have that are older stock are fine.
Well, I heard from Winchester today.
They are going to reimburse me for the bolt in my M1.
Vic in Va, what lot number were yours from?
Lot# is DNL 837G. I only got about 200 rounds into a 4000 primer stash, but suffered about 10 to 12 primer leaks. What I hadn't fired got broke down, primers pushed out, and that bunch of primers are out of circulation.
I have, so far, had great luck with Lot# DKL 8020, But all of those have been loaded. Not one primer has leaked.
I'm using the hell out of CCI 200 and #34s now.
Thanks for the info. I just did a Google search and also found the following lot #'s of WLR's other people have had leakage problems with in the last year or two:
DHL766G
CLL555G
DFL717G
GEL 250G
GDL 225G
I'm working on the tail end of a 2010 batch that has been fine, but have a couple of 2013 bricks that will be needed soon. Neither matches your serial# or any of the above.
You're welcome.
I hope you don't have any problems.
Seems like Olin had a "Marlin Moment". I understand that they, too, had new equipment/people problems. Working in manufacturing myself, I can relate the problems with shaking down a process that is being restarted after upgrades or a newly hired/expanded workforce.
Add WLRM lot # EAL234G to the list.
I hate to think what lot number GFY666 will be like.
Never had a primer leak issue until recent. Using all Winchester WLR primers. They eat a bolt face quick like an acetylene torch. I have heard a few reasons why but do not know for sure.
1. Loose primer pocket
2. Primer was damaged as it was "seated" into the case
3. Dirty primer pocket didn't allow primer to be seated correctly.
I have had this happen in 3 firearms. I contacted Winchester and each time they offer a rebate to purchase new primers but never have covered the damage to the bolt as of yet? I will never use Winchester Primers once I run out of these.
The only primer leaks I have experienced is with Remington nine and a half's. My shooting partner and I purchased a large quantity of these for our silhouette rifles in the 80's. Remington replaced all of them. At the time they noted that it was caused by a bad lot of material used to make the cups. IIRC they even did a recall on several lots and replaced same.
I use every brand and type of primer out there and will watch for Winchester leaks and report back if problems are found.
DHL765G is another problem lot. Talked to Olin/Winchester this morning. They are sending me a container to return my unused primers, sending me a check for new primers, and offered to pay for the repair to my Venezuelan mauser bolt face or a replacement bolt (rifle was a pristine example). So, do I have the serial numbered bolt micro tig welded or get another bolt (if I send the rifle to Sarco they will headspace a brand new FN bolt) or simply not worry about it? I popped 2 primers that eroded the bolt face. There must be an issue with the primers as the Win. Customer Service rep didn't even question me, they just offered to pay.
Maybe this has something to do with it:
"Old" Winchester primers, at least small rifle primers, were nickel plated. The new ones are just brass. The old ones are slightly larger in diameter than the new ones.
For example, using .223 WW brass, Remington 7-1/2 (brass) develop loose pockets with about 5 reloads. Old Winchesters are good for at least 10 reloads, after which neck splitting starts to occur. This with 24 grains of Varget and 69 grain SMKs, a load that is not particularly hot.