After reading "With new super bonded wonder bullets; does Sectional Density still matter?" thread. I started to wonder is there such a thing as Optimum Bullet weight for Caliber anymore? With so many types of bullets out there Barnes, Burger, Nosler PT & AB etc. for the reloader/hunter to choose. For Example does this still stand true?: 270 - 130gr 7mm - 140gr 308 - 150gr Since many feel Sectional Density doesn't matter any longer. How do you select the Optimum Bullet Weight for caliber/cartridge?
No such thing, and bullet construction plays into it as well.
We make some things too hard, the basics are:
1)Find a bullet your rifle shoots accurately. 2)Learn the maximum and minimum impact velocities the bullet will perform reliably at. 3) Use the velocity window to set the rounds maximum range, and minimum if there is one. 4) Place the bullet in the vitals.
Definitely not by caliber. Ex: a 338 Lapua and a 338 Federal would absolutely not be the same, or 300WM and 308 Win, etc. By cartridge I think it depends on bullet construction. I am now firmly a believer that a mono should be run lighter than other designs.
In General, in a hunting rifle, the optimum bullet is the heaviest NBT your rifle will throw at 3k.
This might be, but in the last four elk that I have shot the AccuBonds have made 60*-90* turns shortly after penetration. Perfectly broadside just behind the shoulder hits have resulted in bullets in the rear hams. I'm done with plastic pointed bullets except for varmints. I've had spitzers veer slightly off course after penetration commenced, but these AccuBonds have been ridiculous when fired from my factory barreled 7 mag. PS. 160 gr. AccuBonds loaded to 2900 fps shot from 7mm RM. Impact range varied from 50 yds. to 320 yds.
No such thing, and bullet construction plays into it as well.
We make some things too hard, the basics are:
1)Find a bullet your rifle shoots accurately. 2)Learn the maximum and minimum impact velocities the bullet will perform reliably at. 3) Use the velocity window to set the rounds maximum range, and minimum if there is one. 4) Place the bullet in the vitals.
Sounds simple? But let's look at 30 cal bullets. There's a bunch of them available. And they all shoot quarter minute deer from 110grs to 220grs out of an 06. How do you choose the Optimum Bullet Weight for a caliber that has such a large range of weights to choose from?
Is it animal body size? Is it max distance you intend to encounter? BC? SD? Or is it a mathamatical equation? Bore times Powder Capacity times BC times SD divided by 7000 equals Optimum Bullet Weight?
Of course all of the answers could also be linked to GrandDad, Dad, Uncle, Hunting buddies etc. & what they suggest.
It's jsut a curious question? With such a large selection of good products how can someone choose the optimum bullet weight for their used cartridge?
Pick a bullet that will behave nicely at the expected velocity impact, and that will of course get you there. I'd not pick a RN for slinging at 600 yards.
When in doubt I'll always err on the side of penetration.
Old guys would pick a 180gr or up for hunting deer in NY. I'd sling a 130gr Barnes at 3100fps.
In General, in a hunting rifle, the optimum bullet is the heaviest NBT your rifle will throw at 3k.
This might be, but in the last four elk that I have shot the AccuBonds have made 60*-90* turns shortly after penetration. Perfectly broadside just behind the shoulder hits have resulted in bullets in the rear hams. I'm done with plastic pointed bullets except for varmints. I've had spitzers veer slightly off course after penetration commenced, but these AccuBonds have been ridiculous when fired from my factory barreled 7 mag. PS. 160 gr. AccuBonds loaded to 2900 fps shot from 7mm RM. Impact range varied from 50 yds. to 320 yds.
Try TTSX.... they've penetrated straight line for us since they've come out. From little game and light versions to heavier slugs and larger critters like moose recently.
2muchgun, has a great point.. We have been killing big game for years with cup and core bullets.. Now we have better bullets, but for most hunting, especially deer size game, I am not sure the premium bullets are all that important.. Generally, for that size game I liked the following mostly Nosler BTBT. .25- 100 to 115 grain .270- 130 to 150grain .7mm-120 to 168 grain .30 150 to 165 grain... Those have worked well for over half a century.. Other things work equally well.. Mostly I want a bullet that is fast and still accurate..
No such thing, and bullet construction plays into it as well.
We make some things too hard, the basics are:
1)Find a bullet your rifle shoots accurately. 2)Learn the maximum and minimum impact velocities the bullet will perform reliably at. 3) Use the velocity window to set the rounds maximum range, and minimum if there is one. 4) Place the bullet in the vitals.
Sounds simple? But let's look at 30 cal bullets. There's a bunch of them available. And they all shoot quarter minute deer from 110grs to 220grs out of an 06. How do you choose the Optimum Bullet Weight for a caliber that has such a large range of weights to choose from?
Is it animal body size? Is it max distance you intend to encounter? BC? SD? Or is it a mathamatical equation? Bore times Powder Capacity times BC times SD divided by 7000 equals Optimum Bullet Weight?
Of course all of the answers could also be linked to GrandDad, Dad, Uncle, Hunting buddies etc. & what they suggest.
It's jsut a curious question? With such a large selection of good products how can someone choose the optimum bullet weight for their used cartridge?
I seriously doubt even 1% of hunters have the shooting skills to take advantage of the "optimum" bullet in a given caliber, because most are hard pressed to consistently place a bullet into the vitals past 300 yds shooting in field conditions and the "optimum bullet starts showing it's minor gains past 400 yds, and likely out more towards 600yds.
In a 30 cal, pick a 150-180 gr bullet, and place it where it matters. It really is that simple. Most people seem to ignore the all to important place it where it matters part and get hung up on minutia.
Accourding to Litz by scaling off the 6.5mm 6mm = 115gr 6.5mm = 140gr 7mm = 177gr .30 = 229gr
I am pretty much in this camp. Heavy for caliber bullets minimize wind drift, assuming good form (i.e., not a roundnose.) With rangefinders and turrets, bullet drop has largely been eliminated as a variable, leaving wind as the biggest remaining source of error.
I've always thought a 225 gr is perfect for the 338WM. That said, that's what I don't use. I'm sold on the 250 Nosler Partitions for that and the 210 Nosler Partitions for the smaller .338s I have absolutely no evidence to support my opinions except the few 210s I've dug out of Elk.
1) Multiply the bore area in thousandths of an inch by the approximate powder capacity of the case with a bullet seated, then divide by 266.6. This results in the ideal bullet weight, but in some instance there are additional adjustments:
a) If the case has a neck shorter than the bullet, multiply the result by .85.
b) If the cartridge was developed before 1900, multiply the result by 1.14.
c) Any bottle-necked cartridge over .35 caliber, subtract 50 grains.
Some examples:
.17 Remington--30 grains .223 Remington--43 grains .250 Savage--87 grains 6.5x55--125 grains (This result is with a, the pre-1900 adjustment) 7x57--140 grains (also a) .270 Winchester--140 grains .30-06--173 grains .300 Winchester Magnum--200 grains (with b,the short-neck adjustment) .338 Winchester Magnum--262 grains .375 H&H--302 grains (with c, the -50 adjustment) .416 Remington Magnum--408 grains (also with c) .458 Winchester Magnum--463 grains
If anybody varies from these absolute numbers, they won't get into the Happy Hunting Grounds without being whacked 100 times with a hard-cover copy of P.O. Ackley's book.
1) Multiply the bore area in thousandths of an inch by the approximate powder capacity of the case with a bullet seated, then divide by 266.6. This results in the ideal bullet weight, but in some instance there are additional adjustments:
a) If the case has a neck shorter than the bullet, multiply the result by .85.
b) If the cartridge was developed before 1900, multiply the result by 1.14.
c) Any bottle-necked cartridge over .35 caliber, subtract 50 grains.
Some examples:
.17 Remington--30 grains .223 Remington--43 grains .250 Savage--87 grains 6.5x55--125 grains (This result is with a, the pre-1900 adjustment) 7x57--140 grains (also a)pll .270 Winchester--140 grains .30-06--173 grains .300 Winchester Magnum--200 grains (with b,the short-neck adjustment) .338 Winchester Magnum--262 grains .375 H&H--302 grains (with c, the -50 adjustment) .416 Remington Magnum--408 grains (also with c) .458 Winchester Magnum--463 grains
If anybody varies from these absolute numbers, they won't get into the Happy Hunting Grounds without being whacked 100 times with a hard-cover copy of P.O. Ackley's book.
The optimum bullet weight is generally whatever is on sale at Walmart just before the start of the local popular hunting season. The market has determined the answer by its collective experience.
"Optimum bullet WEIGHT" is the one for each cartridge that gives the flattest trajectory,OR, the LONGEST MPBR. Obviously, this will be different unless you compare apples to apples, for example, if we take the 300 Win Mag and we compare all bullet weights in the Accubond range, the bullet that gives us the longest MPBR is the 200gr bullet, in the 30-06, it's the 165gr bullet. It will be different for each cartridge, and it will be different with different makes of bullets too, because of BC differences alone.
There could be but I could care less. In 1953 I started loading 130 grain bullets I my 270 Winchester case and have killed pronghorn, mule deer and elk with my old rifle. Dident see any reason to change. In the early 60s I started using 165 grain bullets in my 308 Norma Mag and shot pronghorn, mule deer, and elk with the mag rifle but I dident need the mag for pronghorn and deer. Over the years most all of my shots were within 300 yards. I have also used other cartridges for big game. There is one thing I do know . I shot my rifles at 100, 200, and 300 yards so I knew where the bullets would hit a each range. I do the same with my varmint rifles..
For my .300 Weatherby, I think the optimum weight is 180 grains. Here's why:
1. Point blank trajectory past 300 yards on big game.
2. Good wind deflection ability.
3. With Partitions, kills anything up to 1000 pounds like the hammer of Thor.
4. 180 grain partitions almost always leave exit holes.
5. Less recoil and flatter trajectory than 200 grains.
I am skeptical about range finders because you may not have time to use them. I prefer to "guesstimate" what portion of the game's chest height is subtended by the distance from the center of the reticle to where it becomes thicker, assuming I keep the scope at 4X. For elk this means (a) if the chest is more than this, shoot. (b) If the chest is less than this, stalk closer.
1) Multiply the bore area in thousandths of an inch by the approximate powder capacity of the case with a bullet seated, then divide by 266.6. This results in the ideal bullet weight, but in some instance there are additional adjustments:
a) If the case has a neck shorter than the bullet, multiply the result by .85.
b) If the cartridge was developed before 1900, multiply the result by 1.14.
c) Any bottle-necked cartridge over .35 caliber, subtract 50 grains.
Some examples:
.17 Remington--30 grains .223 Remington--43 grains .250 Savage--87 grains 6.5x55--125 grains (This result is with a, the pre-1900 adjustment) 7x57--140 grains (also a) .270 Winchester--140 grains .30-06--173 grains .300 Winchester Magnum--200 grains (with b,the short-neck adjustment) .338 Winchester Magnum--262 grains .375 H&H--302 grains (with c, the -50 adjustment) .416 Remington Magnum--408 grains (also with c) .458 Winchester Magnum--463 grains
If anybody varies from these absolute numbers, they won't get into the Happy Hunting Grounds without being whacked 100 times with a hard-cover copy of P.O. Ackley's book.
Interesting that this formula gives about 235 grains for the .300 Weatherby (no short neck adjustment). On the other hand, 300 grains for the .375 and 450 grains for the .458 are very close to the formula and are the weights I arrived at by other means. For .223, I prefer a heavier weight, around 69 grains.
I forgot to include the Weatherby exception, which is to subtract half the retail price of each piece of brass, in U.S. pennies, from the weight of the bullet.
Also forgot to include the "absence of sense of humor" adjustment. Are you one of the guys who angrily called Wolfe Publishing when they tried to contact the made-up addresses parts and components for B-29 rifles?
John, after I read that article I had two rifles built around the B29. It is everything you claimed and more! Why just this morning before sunrise I shot the moon. It died.
Last night I had some time to kill so I pulled out an old book off the shelf: Any Shot You Want. The chapter Cartridge and Bullet Selection..Light Prey Animals..A Word About Bullets, "Expansion is great, velocity is great, and weight retention is devoutly to be wished. But penetration is the key." TEW
The thing I thought was funny the very next subchapter written by Craig Boddington, Rifles and Cartridges for Medium/Heavy Prey: Reference SD thoughout his chapter going on the say, "Bullet weight is a simple choice too. Don' get wrapped up in a bit of extra velocity possible with a lighter bullet...But when in doubt, keep sectional density in mind."
By Gawd, we got the "Hammer of Thor" in this thread!!! As the old drill sarge used to say "Outstanding, F**kin outstanding!"
Bien s�r!
So what have we learned? The optimum is the heaviest bullet that will stabilize in the barrel. Use it and you're in clover! This old chestnut is the hammor of Thor also (as well, too...)
I think I like heavier bullets than most in the cartridges that I shoot. One trouble regarding weight is the construction and as been said before the cartridge makes a difference.
Even all cup and core bullets vary considerably in penetration and expansion.
I've bad mouthed a certain brand of bullets in the cartridges I shoot, but they are probably perfect in smaller cases. 300 Savage vs. 300 WM.
Some of the premium bullets do better in a wider range of cartridges. Take a Nosler Partition for example (my favorite premium bullet) a 150grain 7mm bullet will work well in a 7x57 and a 7mm Mag.
Trying to determine the optimum weight of bullet per cartridge is like trying to pick the optimum height of a wife. There are many other considerations that have to be melded together to make a sensible choice; how much do they kick, how expensive are they, throating, how stoutly are they constructed, availability, type of tips, how much penetration is desired, and on and on. I can't imagine what kind of cartridge/hunting situation a person could find himself in where there weren't at least a few bullets that would perform better than necessary. People put way too fine a point on bullet selection anyway. You don't know, usually if that deer you are going to shoot weighs 150 or 300 pounds,if you are going to have to shoot him in the shoulder or the neck or the ribs or if he is going to be 30 yards away or 300 yards. The ideal bullet for a shoulder shot on a 300 pound buck at 30 yards is probably not the ideal bullet for a rib shot at 300 yards on a small deer. A good bullet like Nosler Partition, Hornady Interlock will usual do pretty well in all cases, and I am betting there are a few others as well, but those two have great reputations and have worked well for me.
I only shoot deer that are extremely disciplined or have been to Weight Watchers. They must weigh 162 to 188 lb, be no closer than 43 yards or farther than 102 yards from my hiding place near the Burger King. The odd smells confuse them.
Further to that, I do not use copperized bullets because they attract lightning and can ruin your shot. They also conduct radio waves.
I prefer lead for its ductile properties and the fact that radiation cannot penetrate it. Aliens cannot detect lead either.
I do use bullets that feature copper alloy jackets, but only after they have been blessed by either a witchdoctor or a Catholic priest. One can never be too careful.
"Trying to determine the optimum weight of bullet per cartridge is like trying to pick the optimum height of a wife. There are many other considerations that have to be melded together to make a sensible choice; how much do they kick, how expensive are they, throating, how stoutly are they constructed, availability, type of tips, how much penetration is desired, and on and on."
I used to think it was 85gr in 6mm, 100gr in .25, 140gr in .270, 150gr in 7mm, and 165gr in .30 cal. But that was with traditional, cup/core bullets with lead cores. Now, we have the monometal bullets like Barnes and Hornady GMX and we have been shown how lighter bullets can penetrate as well or better than the traditional bullets and the game has been changed forever.
I have to agree with 458 Lott now. No such thing exists.
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