Hodgdon just announced three new extruded IMR powders that are temperature resistant and contain a decoppering agent. The three powders (IMR 4166, 4451 and 7977) are roughly in the IMR4064, IMR4350 and Retumbo burn-rate ranges, and are made in Canada at the plant that makes other IMR powders.

I got to thoroughly test IMR4166 this summer, and it worked as advertised in a bunch of rounds from .204 Ruger to .45-70. Data for all three "Enduron" powders is now up on the Hodgdon website.

Don't know about pricing, but assume it will be in the same range as the other IMR powders.

Dang, now I have new numbers to remember.

Sounds great. I wished they would just make a new improved IMR 4350 that is an extreme powder like H4350... I guess I'll have to try to remember another # as well...

I wish they would just focus that energy on catching up on production of existing powders...

True!!! They need to get on the ball and start putting out more H4350!!!!!

+1

Faster I go, the behinder I get. Dang it, there's already 3-4 dozen powders out there I never tried.

I'm not as looney as I want to be.

Dan, I'd be happy for the rest of my life just running RL 15 and H4350 in all of my rifles. I don't really need to have to remember more powder #'s..

Appreciate the heads up. Didn't see anything in the 338 Fed data to change what I'm already using, but interesting anyway.

Wondering when if ever I will see a good selection of any powder, let alone new powders.. Thanks for the update one never knows.

JB, thanks for the news. Did you find any really sweet loads as you played with it this summer? 4166 looks promising for my 7-08, and 7977 in a 270win may be good too.

Thanks for the heads up. I too wish they would just make more of the stuff. A year ago I could barely find any powder but was still able to snag some at $32/lb. Now it is up to $40/lb and we are lucky to find a choice of one or two powders - IMR3031 and IMR4064 these days.

Yeah, few weeks back I bought some H-4350, cost me $40.00 for one pound.

I've been seeing a lot of H414 as well..

Pistol powders seem to be really rare around my parts. Just about out of Bullseye... Rifle seem to be hit and miss. Available but not the exact recipe. Prices are up as well still under $40 per pound but who knows..

Quite a bit of rifle powder at the tanner show this weekend, all for $28-$32 a pound.

Not a single can of pistol powder in the entire place.

I think John just said that.....




165 GR. SIE SPBT


Starting Loads

Maximum Loads



Manufacturer

Powder

Bullet Diam.


C.O.L.


Grs.


Vel. (ft/s)


Pressure



Grs.


Vel. (ft/s)


Pressure




IMR

IMR 4451

.308"

3.300"



53.3

2,658

49,100 PSI



57.4

2,858

59,200 PSI

4756 is the one I am worried about.

Betcha we could get drunk sometime whilst extolling the virtues of such.

Powder Valley has H-4350 in stock, $22.45/pound, ready to ship.

DF

3rdGen has IMR4350 & several other IMR's in stock for a couple of dollars more. Nothing I noticed for pistols though.

Key point that was missed in the above is availability date(s). . . "Early 2015 . . . " which is about as generic as it gets. I wouldn't be running to my LGS asking for it the day after New Years.

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1413848877yn6a7rhwm83

Just looking at some 7-08 loads and it looks like 4166 has the same max charge and velocity as Varget...but pressure at max was lower. Could it be the one to replace Varget!? What....there's a target on my back? LOL!

It says 4166 will be first and they're saying November '14 here: http://www.lohmanarms.com/product_p/imr41661.htm

After reading the posts, here are some other observations. Aside from Pyrodex and some of the other black-powder substitute-type products, Hodgdon doesn't "make" rifle powders.

Instead they contract with other companies to produce them. H4350 and the other Extremes are made in Australia, and there have been some bottlenecks in supply from there, not caused in any way by Hodgdon. Among the bottlenecks is that, due to increased demand, more ships full of powder have been leaving Oz for the U.S. They normally refuel and resupply at Auckland, New Zealand, but the Kiwis got nervous about more than one ship loaded with powder being in their harbor, so ruled that only one powder ship would be allowed at one time. This naturally slows down shipments.

Two, the Australians can only make so much powder, and demand is still well above average. The old law of supply and demand definitely applies, even though many handloaders apparently can't understand such a basic economic principle. That's one reason the price has gone up.

In fact, apparently shooters in general can't understand why there are still "shortages" of rimfire ammo and some loading components. These are the same shooters who, two years after Obama's reelection, are often buying all the rimfire ammo they can find at inflated prices, anytime they can find it, or buying several 8-pound jugs of powder, where they used to buy a couple pounds. Factories can only produce so much, and they are NOT going to increase their capacity 10 times just to satisfy the panicky desires of shooters in the U.S., who may suddenly decide after next month's election there's no need to hoard .22 shells or powder anymore, or may finally fill their garages so full there's no more room for either.

I suspect (but don't know) that among the reasons for Hodgdon contracting with the factory in Canada for the Enduron powders is that shipping powder from Canada to Kansas is much easier (and cheaper) than shipping powder from Australia. The ability to make temperature-resistant powders isn't unique to Oz, and if Hodgdon can supply other powders that do the same things (actually more, with the decoppering agent) without the hassles and expenses of overseas importing, why wouldn't they?

I also suspect the reason IMR4451 isn't called some version of 4350 (HMR4350, or 4350.2?) is that there are already THREE versions of 4350 on the market. But 4451 fills basically the same niche, and may be the best version of all.

Nah, it's really a government conspiracy.......

So how much is there to the "decoppering" agent claims, John? Marketing or truth? I haven't played with the others that have it to know myself, yet.

Decoppering agents have been around for a long time, but not in many handloading powders. They're really pretty simple, a slight amount of some soft metal that combines with the copper, making it brittle, whereupon most of the copper's blown out of the bore with the next round.

The oldest decoppering agent is lead. It doesn't even have to be combined with the powder; artillery shells often had a coil or piece of lead foil placed on top of the powder charge, under the projectile. (As you might imagine, it's a PITA to clean copper-fouling out of a cannon barrel.)

But decoppering agents have been in a lot of military small-arms powders for years, mostly due to automatic rifles, and when those same powders are sold to handloaders they work well. Ramshot TAC, for instance, is a Belgian powder originally designed for NATO military rounds, the reason it contains a decoppering agent and the other Ramshot rifle powders don't, even though they're made by the same factory and use the rest of the same basic technology. Some of the older ball powders sold by Hodgdon also have long had decoppering agents.

These days lead pollution is unpopular, of course, so other decoppering agents are used. Bismuth is a good one, for instance.

I tested the decoppering of IMR4166 by shooting my Thompson/Center Icon .223 for 100 rounds without cleaning, while making other tests with the powder. The Icon's barrel doesn't foul a lot, but it does end up with enough copper inside after 100 rounds to show up plainly in a bore-scope, and to turn a solvent-soaked patch a definite blue. After cleaning out the slight amount of powder fouling with some alcohol-soaked patches, there was only a hint of any copper in a few places inside the bore, and a patch soaked in Montana X-Treme Copper Killer showed only a very faint hint of blue.

Great info, John. Thanks!

Looking at 7977 for my 270. A 150 bullet cruising at 2940fps out of the lowly (aka "gay") 270 is nothing to sneeze at.

JB, you wouldn't be scheduled to do a magazine article on the new powders by chance?

I got acquainted with IMR4166 while doing an article for the upcoming Hodgdon Annual Manual.

Mule Deer,

Thanks for the updates, and the updates to the updates.


Whatdoyaknow, thought it was tin.

Thanks for the update. I understand now why I saw IMR4350 on shelves before H4350.

Hodgdon has their online "Reloading Data Center" updated with the new powders. Performance with IMR 4451 and 180s in the 30-06 appears to be similar to H4350 and IMR4350, for velocity. They say 55.5 grains should give about 2750 fps out of a 24-inch barrel, at under 60K PSI (SAAMI standard). Not that I would load above a manufacturer's recommendation for the old war horse...

So, why the heck is Australia our powder stash? Law? Raw materials? Labor? Fosters lager?

And dang, I just bought two 8lb jugs of H4831.........


Casey

JB, Any hints as to whether the 4451 is a good candidate for the 338-06? No load data with hodgdon, but H4350 has shown to be quite good for 210-225gn bullets. I've found that powders, even of very similar burn rate, as shown in charts, can have quite different results in actual application.

My guess is 4451 probably would be very good in the .338-06. As you note, it's sometimes hard to tell exactly what will happen even when powders supposedly have similar burn rates, but single-based extruded powders like the Enduron line tend to perform most predictably.

Thanks. I'll keep an eye out, and if I find some I'll give it a go with 225 Partitions. I have a few hundred of those I need to find a use for.

I just wished the ship with the Trail Boss would get here.

Why do you say that, John?

Pretty significant statement, considering the competition...

Temperature resistance AND a decoppering agent.

In just my shooting life time,when I really started loading my own ammo in 68 and what we have for choices today is mind boggling to say the least, I started with surplus WW-II 20mm Cannon Power call 4831 and IMR-4350 now gee you could no nuts or broke trying all the stuff we have available today, panic buying not with standing! IMR-4151 just may become my new favorite powder for loading my 7 x 57! Time will tell.

Slight topic change. Mule Deer, have you heard about availability of any of the RamShot powders? I don't get to the gun stores very often, but I haven't seen anything from them in a LONG time.

Ramshot powders around here have dried up !

The big problem with Ramshot rifle powders was a fire at the factory in Belgium more than a year ago. Everything's fixed now, but they're still catching up with orders. Their most popular rifle powder is TAC, so that's what's showing up first; the others will be coming along ASAP.

Of course, the panic buying since Obama's reelection hasn't helped any.

If any of you guys see True Blue on the shelf just leave it there. It sucks ass.



Travis

"Some of the older ball powders sold by Hodgdon also have long had decoppering agents". JB

Is H414 one of the powders with the de-coppering agent? Would you list which powders have it, please?

For Mule Deer
If what you have said then 4451 should be the better powder for my loading of the 358NM with 250 gr. bullets! Am I correct?
Thanks for your time. Cheers NC

Thanks MD!

It belongs there, right next to Competition.

It blows......

Now I'm curious: What are the specifics about why you and Travis don't like True Blue and Competition?

I'm not going to argue with you, but one of the things I do when writing articles about handloading various cartridges is try everything that seems, from published data, that it might be worth trying. While True Blue and Competition haven't stood out anymore than most powders, I've also gotten good results in several handgun loads with both, though I use Competition more for shotshell loading.

I should also probably point out that while both are Ramshot "brands," neither is made in the same factory (or even on the same continent) as the Ramshot rifle powders.

MD,

I think if you were to see Travis and Dutch say in person what they wrote about those powders you would suspect they had ulterior motives for those statements.

At least that's my impression, but nuanced communication such as sarcasm certainly isn't as easily discerned from forum posts as it is in person - the reason emoticons are sometimes useful.

Are you insinuating I could be selfish?



Travis

Ah, yes, "suck"ered again by Campfire goblins--and it's still a week to Halloween....

Never, Travis!

Who's to say where the line is drawn between self preservation and selfishness?

I'm looking forward to a day when powders are on shelves in abundance and we can point to these as the bad old days of scarcity.

True Blue is some good stuff. But please don't publish that in any articles.




Travis

At the local shop I like to explain which powders produce the worse accuracy and why.


Travis

Darn! I just dumped 6lbs of True Blue on the flower bed on Travis's recommendation.

Mule Deer, I shot up a couple of 4 (?) lb cans of Competition in 12 gauge target loads (pretty sure they were 1 oz loads). Of all the powders I have used for target loads over the years (Red Dot, Clays, Promo, Tightwad, American Select come to mind) it was my least favorite. Very dirty, inconsistent reports, that sort of thing.

Never used it in hand guns, and YMMV.

Listen you blokes, leave the new stuff alone and keep burning through the Extreme line.

If demand for it drops there, they'll start making less of it here and all I can see that doing is driving prices higher than the FIFTY FIVE DOLLARS per 500 grams I am paying now!!!

Bingo. I do not chase RCH's. Any appropriate powder will get me withing 50 fps of optimum. That said, some folks do have to make a living on such "news", that I do understand.

The downside of Australia that is so unknown to the outside.....Aussies get stolen from every time they buy anything.
I filled up last night @ $2.87 a gallon or about half what Aussie's pay and they have their own oil from Bass Strait. The Oz Govt will never disclose what it costs per barrel to extract. The Greiner 3+3 tax per litre (That is $0.03 per litre for 3 years to fund roadworks) added in 1987 was never lifted, they just stopped advertising the tax.

The Aussie designed and made Holden Monaro was imported to the US and sold as the Pontiac GTO. I saw them for as little as $26,000 new where by Aussies paid 2-3 times that for the same car and that is just 2 examples of thousands.

Cold beer and sunshine ain't everything.

Indeed John.

I used to think decoppering agents in powder was just a farce or a new marketing tactic etc.

I found out I was wrong, some powders with decoppering agents work and work amazingly well.

Recently I was doing load development on a new 6ppc barrel, I used the same cases,primers, bullets on all loads so the only difference was the powder. I used the tried and true VVN133,the new Accurate LT-32 and IMR8208XBR.

To make a long story short VVN133 and Accurate LT-32 would leave a trace of copper with a single shot down the barrel and with as many as 30 shots down the barrel the IMR8208XBR left absolutely zero copper !!!!!! amazing

N133 has been around forever but it makes me wonder why Accurate did not use a decoppering agent in the LT-32

Probably because LT-32 was primarily intended for benchrest shooting, and benchrest shooters are going to scrub the hell out of their bores after every few shots anyway!

Are there current available powders with a de-coppering agent suitable for the 300 win mag w/165 and 180 grain bullets?
I've got a barrel that's a terrible fouler. It doesn't get used much because of that.

The new IMR powders that started this thread are supposedly available right now. 4451 and 7977 would be the two to try in the .300.

Or you could also install Dyna Bore Coat.

This one would be a good candidate for DBC, I'll try that first as I'm in the process of super cleaning the bore right now.

Yeah, super clean bore is key to successful DBC application.

I think some of the DBC "failures" we read about are from not fully cleaning the bore, pre-application.

I'm biased towards the Hawkeye to check it out. A clean patch doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.

DF

Up again.

It's been a while since I've seen the list, but I believe it includes 748 and maybe some of the others, perhaps H335.

The problem with many older spherical powders is they burn (or burned) so dirty the resulting powder fouling (which is pretty abrasive) tended to negate the value of the decoppering agent. While newer versions of those older powders tend to burn somewhat cleaner, decoppering agents are most effective in cleaner-burning powders. There are also some other extruded powders that supposedly contain decoppering agents, I believe some of the Reloder series, but I've never seen much reduction in copper-fouling when using them--and as with many other things such as primers and bullets, companies will vary the formula from year to year. Probably the best thing to do is ask powder companies themselves for the latest info.

Considering the total lack of Ramshot Big Game, will any of these new powders work their magic in the 9.3x62?

I called Alliant Powder Co and they said they did not have any de-coppering agent in their powders. I talked to a guy that I think answered the phone after I had to go through a contract service co to get to him.

I'd guess 4416 would work with both 250's and 286's, since it's in the same approximate burn-rate range as Varget and RL-15. 4451 might be about right for 286's, but Hodgdon doesn't have them listed on their data for the 9.3x62 yet.

The problem I had calling them once before was they didn't want to acknowledge that the round can be safely loaded to modern pressures.

You're going to find that with older classic rounds, like 6.5x55, 7x57, etc.

Some providers will give loads for modern actions, some stick to vintage gun limits.

I like to research on line for that type data. Load Data is a good source, but you have to subscribe. To me, it's a good deal, as they have most proprietary loading manual data and you won't have to buy a stack of those to have the info.

DF

Good to know. I'll be doing some 4166/8x57 loading over the winter.

FYI, Lohman arms claims to have all 3 in stock. Graf's and powder valley have 4166.

Saw all of those at the LGS yesterday, 29.00 a pound. Saw something else, Hodgdon killed off the IMR 800X. Its now Hodgdon HI-Skor 800X. Whats up with that?

Was limited to 2 lbs per day, picked these up yesterday, going back today for 2 more.

In 1919 IMR # 15� added 2% tin to IMR # 15 to reduce metal fouling from jacketed bullets. (this powder is commonly known as IMR 4064

In 1923 IMR # 17� added 2% tin to IMR # 16 to reduce metal fouling from jacketed bullets. (Commonly known as IMR 3031)

Dupont patented adding Tin dioxide to rifle powder in 1912 or 1913 as a decoppering agent in rifle barrels for the military.

Hatcher or Whelen talked about cutting up Tin foil and putting it in 30.06 cases which decreased the copper fouling in the early rifles designed for the new High pressure 30 cal.

Powder valley had 4166 and has 4451. Tempting.

FYI, new burn rate chart with the powders: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202014-2015.pdf

Sorta +1; mine would be RL15 & Hunter, though.

IMR 7977 looks like it would be great in four of the cartridges I run. 243 Win, .257 Roy, 6.5x55, and .300 Win Mag.

Anyone done some loads with these yet?

Just picked up some 4451 at the LGS to try in my 338WM when conditions improve.

Used to try to find the perfect powder for my load. After the first Obama powder shortage I bought quantities of Varget and H4831. Am giving up some performance but will never be hurt by it.

+10000, and Alliant as well.

I may have already pointed the following out on this thread, and have on other threads, but will do so again:

Most rifle powders aren't "produced" by the companies that sell them. Instead they're made by various factories around the world, per contracts with the powder companies we know, such as Alliant and Hodgdon. Essentially our familiar powder companies are contractors and distributors, often ordering and selling powders from several different factories in different countries.

These factories are producing as much as they can. There have been problems with some supply lines, whether due to accidents at factories or bottlenecks in shipping, but the big problem isn't in producing tons of powder.

Instead it's much like the "shortage" of .22 rimfire ammo that's being going on ever since Obama was reelected in November of 2012: Shooters are buying far more of everything than they did before then, including all the powder of a certain type whenever they find it.

The .22 "shortage" is worse, because apparently some people are still buying rimfire ammo to resell. But U.S. handloaders have become hoarders, buying more than we used to (which often means everything on the shelf, or we're allowed to by a mail-order company) any time we find powder, bullets, cases or whatever else we often use.

Various companies have recently told me that they've seen demand slacken a little, though not much, and certainly not like what firearms companies have seen in the past year. But we're still buying far more components than we used to--and far more than we probably will in a year or two, especially since the recent American election went so well for Republicans.

Some companies have added a manufacturing capacity, but not much, especially the foreign companies that make powder for U.S. distributors. Why should they? They're selling everything they can make, and in fact most are growing a little weary over the insatiable demand of America. I know American .22 rimfire makers are tired of it, because many are located in areas with limited numbers of available workers. While many workers at first appreciated the overtime involved in 24/7 manufacturing, many also grew tired of working all the time and found some other job.

Most of the shooters who like to complain about companies not producing all the stuff they used to find on store shelves should take a look in the mirror. They'll find the main culprit looking back.

John,

You certainly have far more access to far more sources of information than I, but the cause of the problem might be more multi-faceted than your note above suggests.

In speaking with sales reps at Powder Valley, Midway, and Graf's over the last few years, they all say that while they have abnormally high numbers of orders in recent years, they are not receiving product to fill orders. One rep a couple of years ago at Powder Valley noted that they were actually shipping far fewer powder orders than they had just a few years beforehand and their actual number of completed transactions for powder was down due to the inability to fill orders. That was a couple of years ago, maybe it is better now.

I've read a few times that with respect to powder coming from ADI, the US and New Zealand imposed new transportation regulations, which restricted (i.e. reduced) the movement of powder by sea compared to prior practices. That is just one example of one cause other than the man in the mirror.

Also, is it not coincidental that just before hunting season/elections, all of the sudden powder and ammo again appeared on shelves?

Additionally as part of the problem, as part of the military base downsizing policies over the last decades, which began decades ago, some government run ammo plants that produced ammo, powder and powder related products exclusively for the military were shut down in order to "privatize" production. I know of one very large plant in East Texas that was shut down in the early 1990's, which had produced ammo and other powder related products such as solid rocket fuel since WW2. I believe there was another similar plant in Alabama or somewhere in the South that produced powder and related products exclusively for the military that was shut. Thus, production capacity to fill government orders decreased, just before a major war effort ramped up.

That last point is one that seems to be lost or forgotten - we have been in a major war effort for over a decade now. The coverage on the evening news now is a fraction of what I remember from watching Walter Cronkite report every night on the Vietnam war. Today, watching TV at night or listening to the news, it is easy to not notice that there are 10's of 1,000's of men and women fighting, and we as a country are at war. That we can even buy ammo and reloading components in the midst of a war would amaze our parents who lived with food rationing during WW2.

fwiw for consideration and discussion.

One silver lining in this ongoing shortage, I was "forced" to try IMR and Accurate powders and some other powders such as the spherical/ball powders for the first time in a long time. In doing so, I found there are some nice products and I'll keep using them even when my prior favorites are available again. The shortage actually has made me willing to try lots of alternatives, and as a result, I've developed a broader base of reloading knowledge. So, there is one modest positive.

The reason distributors are getting less powder (and .22 ammo, and everything else) to ship is NOT because companies are making less, but because more distributors and store chains are ordering more. Orders exceed production by so much that manufacturers have to allocate shipments so that everybody gets some of what they ordered, but not everything.

I also know for a fact, however, that a few distributors and stores aren't getting what they used to get because they blame it all on the manufacturers. An example is a big sporting goods store in the Midwest that ordered a bunch if rimfire ammo. The company sent them their complete order, but the store allowed anybody to buy however much they wanted, so was out in a week, with a supply that normally lasted three months. The store immediately put in another order for the same amount of ammo, and when they didn't get it immediately started telling their customers the manufacturer wasn't filling orders. The manufacturer knew this because they started getting calls and e-mails from the store's irate customers. As a result they quit selling to that store.

I have mentioned the New Zealand problem with ADI and Hodgdon in previous posts, so only alluded to "bottlenecks" in this one. It's no big secret. The big problem, in fact the source of all the trouble, is exactly as I stated, shooters buying far more than they usually do, or they even need.

John,
My apologies, no offense intended and not trying to put you on the defensive, just trying to have a discussion to better understand the root causes.

Let's not conflate 22LR with smokeless powder shortages. I am really just interested in the powder shortage cause for purposes of this discussion.

Trying to sort through your answer, do you believe that the supply of Varget actually available to complete retail transaction in the US has been constant for the last 10 years? This seems inconsistent with the anecdotal reports of the vendors, and my own personal experience, as just one example.

What I see is that one particular powder will appear in lots of stores at once. Then months later all stores have a different powder, but they all have it.

The ADI (supplier of Varget) "bottleneck" equals a supply side problem. The problem is not with the powder manufacturer, and not the retail customers, but a change in government policy, which is restricting delivery, and thus reducing the supply in the US to fill retail orders.

Powder Valley customers cannot be hoarding that which is not even in the warehouse to fill an order, unless reading your example above you believe Hodgdon has cut off Powder Valley, Midway, Graf's and their colleagues, which would seem to be an odd policy.

Thoughts?

I'm not getting defensive, but now I am getting a little pissed. DO NOT assume anything about Hodgdon and Powder Valley because of the story I told about the .22 ammo. That was merely an example of how SOME people have tried to put all the blame on manufacturers, when the real problem was, again, much higher demand.

Let me state it again, a little differently, and maybe you'll grasp the problem: There's so much demand, more distributors are ordering more. There isn't enough powder to fill all the orders, so each gets a prorated part of what they ordered when powder does show up. The companies with the longest-standing orders get the first supplies.
I know this through talking to several different powder companies.

The reason Hodgdon powders tend to show up in batches is they come from Australia in ships. When a ship full of powder shows up, a bunch of Hodgdon powder shows up.

Every serious handloader I know has been buying as much powder as possible whenever it shows up anywhere. Prior to Obama's reelection, most started looking for powder when their started getting low, because they assumed they could always buy more--maybe not today, but within a couple weeks or a couple months.

Now every serious reloader (and even some that weren't so serious) is buying as much powder as they can whenever they find it. Last summer one of the local stores got in a big batch of jugs of Hodgdon Extremes. They were gone in a few days, for exactly that reason. The same amount of powder used to last the store 6-8 months. That is happening all over the country, whether at retail stores or places like Midway.

Every time somebody on the Campfire finds powder in a store or on an Internet site they post where to buy it. And then everybody does, and it's gone, sometimes within hours, instead of the supply lasting weeks or months.

So the store or distributor orders more, when they just sold what would normally be several months worth of powder, but the powder company doesn't have any more, and won't for several months--and when they do, it has to be divvied up among more orders for even more powder, so nobody gets all they ordered, and some don't get any until the next batch shows up.

When customers complain about the lack of powder the store or distributor blames the powder company. It's that simple.

I'd love to look in the mirror and see that I'm part of the problem, but I haven't bought powder in several years. I figured the nonsense would run it's course in time and I should have enough to tide me over. Now I find myself in the position where not only can I not find the powder I ran out of anywhere, Bullseye, I can't find a single pound of any handgun powder.

As to the assertion that some people are buying more powder than they can possibly use, perhaps, but if you've seen powder availability dry up for a period of years, you're likely to buy a few years supply vs. a pound or two at a time.

I do know that if I happen to check powder valleys website on the day they show they've received a shipment of Alliant Handgun powders, I'll be ordering 48 pounds of powder.

Maybe you consider that hoarding, I consider it prudent to keep myself out of the situation of guns with now powder to feed em.

No, I wouldn't blame you at all, and in fact I finally started doing the same thing in the past six months or so, because often even the powder companies didn't have any of some powders--especially handgun powders.

That still doesn't change the fact that the problem is primarily due to far more demand than normal. I started buying some kinds of powder wherever I could, because so many other shooters continued to, for so long, that I had no choice. But I have had to plainly state in some magazine articles that XYZ powder wasnt tried because none was available.

On the up side I have more primers on hand than I've ever had and Mrs. Claus took a not so subtle hint and got me a Dillon 550. So I figure by the time handgun powders become available I'll have my new loading bench all set up and better organized than I'd ever normally achieve and should have a cast a large pile of handgun bullets.

Either that or I guess I'll have to do more rifle shooting in the near time as I did stock up on H-335 and RL15 after the 2008 election.

Great points Mule Deer. When the rush hit at its worst I swore I felt tectonic shifts when all that lead and powder were shifting back and forth across the country. Amazing we're able to get what we can considering the numbers.

Hate to see what would happen if there was a national run on toilet paper. With hard copy newspapers disappearing across the country it'd be a bit awkward wiping your a$$ with a computer screen.

MD - thank you for your insight into all of this. I have caught myself doing exactly as you said - buying powder and primers when I see them, even if I don't really "need" them.

I looked in my cabinet the other day, and I have probably way too much powder and primers for one person (at least my homeowners insurance would think so), so I'll probably slow down the purchases for a while.

I was late to the 22LR hoarding, so I'm not too guilty there.

Now I believe we are seeing another type of shortage - brass. It's hard to find brass for some of the less popular cartridges (257 Bob, 35 Rem, etc.) no doubt to the manufacturers turning out all they can of the popular stuff (223, 270, 30/06, etc.). I understand these "oddball" cartridges are usually seasonal runs, and these runs have been delayed with the production of more mainstream cartridges.

On the upside of all this - I see a lot more people out at the shooting ranges, enjoying our shooting sports, so that can't be a bad thing!

No, it's not!

One of the reasons for the brass shortage, aside from companies mostly making more popular cases, is a lot is being used for factory ammo. Believe it or not, most shooters don't handload, and ammo manufacturers need to fill their needs too. Plus, if a handloader really needs brass, he can always buy some factory ammo. It's not what we're used to doing, but if we really need the brass....

John, I understand your point about semi-panic buying being among the reasons you mention for causing the shortages, but you have to admit, or at least I think there is at least a mustard seed worth of rational reason for this.

Given the [/i]general[i]direction of anti-gun liberal-think, this administration, and the general mental climate of popular culture, the ever proliferating of rules, regulations, and laws, it's a natural reaction. And not a completely irrational one.

I agree with Mule Deer. The shortage has been caused by us. And I, for one, am part of the problem. I tried not to be, but when I had to go without certain components for a while, I stocked up the next time it was possible.

The cycle is feeding on itself now.

George,

To a certain extent I agree with you, and the problem was exacerbated not long after Obama's reelection by the school shooting, which stirred up the entire anti-gun community, and really cleaned out a lot of gun stores.

But by the next summer the threat of new federal anti-gun legislation had died, thanks to the Republican-controlled house. A few laws were passed in ultra-liberal states, but the big threat was gone.

Unfortunately, by that time some people had figured out how to profit from the .22 ammo shortage, something that's apparently continuing. This fed into our anxieties about loading components, and as TheBlueMountainApe pointed out, the panic buying started to feed on itself.

Every previous such panic, like the one during the Clinton years fueled by the "assault rifle ban," and then Obama's first election, started to ease up within a year. I suspect this one's been going on longer both because so many shooters thought there was no way Obama would get reelected, and because of cell phones and the Internet. Nowadays, every time some .22 ammo or hard-to-find powder or bullets appear anywhere, there's a feeding frenzy and they're gone. That wasn't happening nearly as much during the previous two panics. So this one's at least partially information-driven.

It's interesting how many people post here (and no doubt on other sites) when stuff appears in stores or on websites. Apparently they think they're doing everybody a favor, but it feeds the buying frenzy, and thus prolongs the shortages.

I even know of one old sporting goods store here in Montana, where I did most of my component shopping when living in that area 25 years ago, that got out of the reloading business. The owner simply grew tired of shooters hounding him about not finding stuff on the shelves--and then buying it all in a day or two when it did appear. So he said screw it and sold what was left to another store.

John, I witnessed what you referred to myself here in our local Walmart. After two years of unsuccessfully walking in to buy 22's when convenient for me, I finally went to the store assistant manager for the scoop.

Apparently there was a group of guys who knew the delivery truck schedules and one of these guys would show up at 7:30 AM or so right after the truck arrival and buy his allowed allotment (two bricks); next, he would text or call his buddies and they would buy out 3-5k worth of .22 ammo by 8:30 or nine that morning.

Hate to admit but I too recently bought some Unique just because I could. Only one jug and I left several, but when i saw they had it, it went home. As soon as 22 becomes available and reasonable I wont leave wally's without a brick.

MD - yes, completely understand about the factory ammo, however, anyone seen any 257 Roberts or 35 Remington ammo lately? I see quite a bit of other rounds (6.5x55, 7x57, 280 etc.) but I haven't seen any 257 factory ammo in quite a while. I'm sure the factories are doing all they can just keep up with the requests for the more popular stuff (243, 270, 30/06, etc.), same as components - once the rush ever stops on everything, maybe they will have a chance to produce other, less popular rounds.

I think the industry missed the boat on the effect of Concealed Carry laws that swept the nation.

There are a lot more shooters now and the industry just wasn't prepared to handle the demand.

I'm beginning to regret some of my own purchases as these new and presumably improved powders come on the market.

I expect to find it hard to use up what I have and I'm already open to swapping off some of what I have locally as the shortage eases up. FREX I've got some BallC(2) and 748 I'll probably never open but use a newer cleaner burning less temperature sensitive powder instead

I didn't buy vast quantities but I did buy enough to spread the hazmat charges - typically an 8 pound jug and an additional 2 of the one pound bottles to make the vendor's limit for a given powder.

I bought some powders that very much overlap each other in their applications - first I stocked up on H4895 because it would work with many of my rifles then I bought some Reloader 15 because I could and it might or might not do better in a 9.3x62 and so it goes with Varget and Tac and the rest of the Ramshot line because it's there. I suspect Accurate 2700/H414/760 which I bought because Swifty said it was good for the Swift would do for most of the same applications. I suspect I'll notice differences between the powders in my use and equally that the differences I notice won't be real in the sense that on another day with a different rifle results would be different.

But I suspect a large part of the impact on me and my own binge buying is indeed the result of a flattening in the distribution system. Time was I bought powder in small quantities at my friendly local gun shop where the owner knew me and I knew the owner and instead of stocking up I could make do with what they had If no Bullseye I could wait a little while or make do with 230 later with 231 or use the 452 I had in bulk for AA shotgun hulls. When the crisis hit my local gun shop was mostly gone and certainly was at the end of the line for shipments - properly so if the supply was based on the size of last year's orders/sales - compared to the big boxes and online sources. So to buy anything at all I had to buy more to cover the HAZMAT and to be in line to buy anything at all. My LGS might once have put aside some .22 rim fire for regulars WalMart won't.

Bottom line I expect to be spreading some of my own current stocks around the neighborhood - increasing the local supply of traditional powders - to make room for some of the new and presumably improved powders - so I expect a more selective rush to buy and a shortage of the newish powders - and I will buy jugs instead of pounds - the more things change the more things can stay the same.

I agree with all of that and I feel there is an additional reason for the continual frenzy. We all know the hatred that the Obummer team has for the 2nd Amendment & the American way/Constitution & many fear Executive orders on lead, Powder/explosives, firearms in general, at least the mere possibility of such an attempt keeps all of this alive.

Yep, especially when Obama is so fond of executive orders. He hasn't been able to get any major anti-gun laws passed, but he can sure create hassles in other ways.

All excellent points.

I remember just a few years back when I would go down to the LGS and buy just a little smidgen of powder in a plastic container, say enough to load 20 rounds of some oddball loading I wanted to try. He would have everything in stock and would sell as little or as much as I wanted straight out of the jug.

Now, there's none there, and he will only sell in full bottles/jugs. No more experimenting for me.

My LGS has a bunch of all the new Enduron powders on the shelf now. They're priced at $32 a pound instead of the $27 a pound they get for everything else. I'm just wondering if there's anything about these powders that warrants the extra $5 a pound. The Hodgdon extreme series is already pretty temperature stable and the rifles I shoot the most have custom barrels that hardly copper foul anyway so the anti-fouling stuff is mostly moot for my purposes.

Your LGS appears to be hiking the price. I just had some shipped to me from an Internet site and paid less per pound even with the hazmat fee and shipping.

I read your article in "Handloader" and found it very interesting. I am a smart guy, but didn't know all that about powders. It sounds like the new powders are very good in temperature variations and bore cleaning capabilities.

The only problem I see, is that I have a ton of H-335 and other powders that blow up guns and I don't see myself running out soon. I guess I will have to borrow some of the new stuff from you when I need it.

Thanks John...

I'll be happy to give you 2-3 ounces of any of the new powders anytime you can catch me at home!

I used up all my H335 over a dozen years ago, not too long after TAC appeared. Did buy a pound a couple years ago, just so I could include it in magazine articles for the shooters who still have a bunch on hand.

Am I'm the only "wannabe" neighbor of John's?

I'm afraid, I've got more H-335 than you have TAC...

Keep using that 335 and you will be shrapnel....

But the way things are going, you might get through that 335 before TAC in an eight pounder ever materializes at the retail level.

I can't get excited about new powders when I haven't seen any H-4895 anywhere for over three years.

Oh man, there were 8 lb. jugs of H-4895 stacked about 5 deep at the LGS a couple of days ago.

In before anyone else says "Just send all that DANGEROUS H-335 to me for proper disposal".