While most hunters on the Campfire don't recover many TSX's, we've recovered a fair collection over the years--including the last two Eileen fired into big game with her NULA .257 Roberts. The first was the cow elk she got in early September, which was quartering away at 123 yards. The bullet hit the middle of the ribs on the right side, and since the elk was slanting slightly uphill as well, it hit the very bottom of the spinal column before ending up under the hide just in front of the left shoulder. Retained weight was 78.6 grains, with three of the four petals missing. The elk dropped right there, no doubt due to the "tap" of the spine, but the bullet going through both lungs was the fatal wound.

This afternoon we butchered the doe pronghorn taken by Eileen last week. It stood almost directly facing her at 163 yards, and the bullet landed just inside the left shoulder. We found it today just inside the meat of the front side of the right ham. This one had all its petals and weighed 99.4 grains. No doubt the "missing" .6 grain was the plastic tip.

Funny you post this John. I have not hunted much with any x bullet I have only shot two deer with them. Recovered the bullet on both deer. Both with 130 grain tax out of a 6.5x284

It didn't happen without a picture.

I got three of 'em laying around here somewhere.




Travis

The dreaded broken petal and all the long one was 750 yards on a mule deer the short one was at about 20 yards frontal shot also a mule deer.

How far did they run? Not a tremendous amount of difference in those two..

Mike

THEY ARE FAILING!!! YOU HAVE TO GET COMPLETE PENETRATION!!!


Find another bullet and henceforth trash TTSX on the internet every chance you get...

First one went down hill about 100-150 yards and piled up, second one dropped on the spot.

heavywalker,

Yeah, a lot of people make a big deal out of TSX's losing petals, but I haven't noticed it making any difference. One shot a pre-TSX Barnes into the shoulder of a big axis deer and it lost ALL its petals, but the buck ran 38 yards and keeled over anyway. The bullet was a 120 6.5 and the petal-less front end had bulged to .41 inch in diameter, which apparently didn't do the deer any good at all.

It was found under the hide at the rear edge of the ribcage on the other side. In fact it was one of those found before skinning; when I saw it hadn't exited I felt in the area where it might be and located the lump.

The heaviest X-bullet I've recovered was a 168 TSX from a .300 Winchester Magnum that hit a big Sonora mule deer just in front of the left hip as it was running away at about 200 yards. Found it under the hide on the front of the chest, weighing 168 grains.

I do think it is funny how big of a deal people make over the broken petals, hence the dreaded petal remark. Both bullets performed just fine IMO. I was surprised to find them both after all the talk about way over penetration.

750 yards is pushing the limits of what that bullet should be used for in that cartridge. Wouldn't be my first choice for shots that long that is for sure

I'm impressed with how little real difference there is for such a drastic difference in impact velocity.

Mike

Actually, Randy Brooks was also surprised at the big deal people made about broken petals after the original X was out a while, partly because there's some evidence broken-off petals help the bullet do more damage. in fact there are some monolithics designed so the petals break off, such as the Cutting Edge Raptor, and they work very well on game.

But since "the customer is always right," Randy tweaked the design to give people what they wanted. TSX's still lose petals now and then, especially when they hit bone, but so what?

Its just the "old school" thinking that in order to be a "good bullet", it must stay intact. The Barnes are going to perform differently because they are a mono. The learning curve can be long.

I have never recovered a bullet, but I have shot 6 deer with the TSX. One of the better bullets IMHO. They shoot very well in my 338 Federal. I will continue to use them. In my 9.3X62 the TSX also works well. As we march towards no lead, it is something I look at..

Exactly!

I've found several TSXs in the last few critters....all large bull moose

375 h&h x 300 gr @100+ broadside double lung.
9.3x62 x 250 gr @ 380 broadside double lung.
2 ea 300wsm x 180 gr broadside neck shot.....toughest spot on a moose.
1 ea 300 wsm x 180 frontal neck downhill....hit heart

None lost petals and no double digit weight loss.

There is some irony, I think, in the apparent detail that the TT versions of the X seem to be coming back around to what the old XFB was designed to do - and generally worked well doing. There seemed to be great resistance to them, yet as soon as they were shooting well everyone forgot about the complaints of penciling and/or lost petals. The TSX actually seemed to be worse overall in terms of terminal performance (owing to the fact that the generally tighter expansion of the petals meant less chance of losing petals while creating more of a penciling effect). The TT versions seem to resolve much of the expansion problem that hard alloy bullets seem prone toward. The best-looking expansions I've seen recovered have nearly always also had some missing copper - and no complaints on their killing quickly either. Non-expansion has always been the worst problem I've experienced. (Even the old 2 in < 1 MOA and 3 in 2 MOA were never a problem for me when it came to bringing meat home.)

John,

Have you and Eileen switched over to the TTSX exclusively or do you still shoot both versions?

Elk Country

This is a 180 gr TTSX from my .300 WSM that I found laying against the skin on the offside of a bull elk after a broadside double lung shot.





donsm70

I think I'd shoot for bone with an X of any kind!

Shed that big front end and push on through.

Mike

elkcountry,

Yes, we switched over to TTSX's or E-Tips a few years ago when shooting monos, since we've never had any failures to expand with either, unlike the original TSX's. I've also been happy with my limited experience with Hornady GMX's and Curtting Edge Raptors.

As Klikitarik pointed out in his post, the biggest problem you're going to run into with the monolithic bullets is failure to expand. The plastic tipped versions seem to have solved that problem.

Catching the tsx/ttsx is a notable event as shown here in this thread. Some have caught two, some six, and me? I've shot several game and never caught one. It's quite a testament to the bullet when it's news that one has been caught. This ole guy sure likes them. Moose to whitetail. Oh, and a crow with a 180TSX 300WSM. Didn't catch that one either.

Jim

It seems the TTSX defines bullet performance these days. I'm really surprised that a moose shot through the lungs caught a 300gr 375! They must be real tough sumbiches!

Not necessariy tough -- just big!

A 200 gr TTSX from a 358 Win after running the diagonal length of a warthog. The only one recovered from a fair load of critters up to gemsbuck and blue wildebeest.

The learning curve with barnes is actually very short. You realize you can take about any shot, if you have the horsepower, and the bullet will work.

It doesn't get any shorter than that IMHO.

Myself and the two or three guys I hunt with have recovered many TSX/TTSX's.

C'mon, the most important aspect of a successful hunt is showing off the perfectly mushroomed or, in this case, clovered X bullet

Indeed it is. Having killed 20 or so head of game with them I have recovered a grand total of ONE. Almost all of mine have been 165s in a 300 Wby.

I have some 458s that I would like to try but not sure what to use them on!

I'll play!

.375 (moose) on the left, the three on the right = dirt berm



.375 (elk)



.375 (another elk)



7mm (yet another elk) this one was a bit disconcerting.....

Not sure why disconcerting... had a cup and core hit like that, it likely would have seperated...
A bit of bend, and opened petals.. from a dead animal.

examining the wound channel (cow elk), it very clearly tumbled after hitting the onside rib and didn't make it through the second lung

Nothing is infallible. Nice thing about an X under those circumstances is there's enough bullet left to inflict a serious wound.....one of those "it still kills when everything did not turn out right" kind of situations.

I'm not totally sold on TSX's (or monolithics in general) as THE only bullet to use on big game. Yeah, they penetrate great, but have seen some fail to open, which as Klik said is their biggest problem.

It also beats the hell out of not penetrating enough, but have also spent considerable time looking for animals (not all mine) that wouldn't have gone nearly as far if they'd hit with certain other bullets. Also, I haven't found monolithics to kill as quickly as lead-cored bullets with typical lung-shots, unless driven really fast, or of pretty big caliber.

I also haven't found them to penetrate any deeper than some load-cored bullets. As an example, have seen similar penetration to the 100 TSX from various .25's with both the 6mm and .25 caliber Nosler Partitions, not just once or twice but a number of times. And have yet to notice any practical difference in penetration between the 250 and 286 TSX in the 9.3x62 and the 286 Partition, and the Partition has, overall, killed quicker. And no bullet I've used has killed any quicker than the Berger VLD hunting bullets, which in my experience shoot up even less meat than monolithics if placed correctly.

But I do like the Tipped TSX's very much for specific applications.

Spot on JB, they are a great bullet and have their uses and do certain jobs extremely well but they are not the end all be all of bullets or performance and in many cases are not the best choice.

As with most things they have their good and not so good attributes and people should take those into consideration when choosing which bullet to use for a specific hunt/task.

A cup and core would have likely expanded properly and not tumbled as that example did... It would probaly also have killed quicker.

I agree with your comments, John. I use Monos outta my 25-06 when I may encounter game bigger than deer. Also have used them in 30 cal magnums.
I have had good luck with the 30 cals, but the 100gr TSX outta the 25-06 has a mixed track record. They either work very well, or the animals run off much farther than I would like. I havent w=switched over to the TTSX version in 25 cal yet, because I bought a stash of them, that I haven't burnt up yet. Maybe the 100gr TTSX is a better bullet?

I have used various Barnes X bullets since 1999. Last critter I shot was a decent sized boar black bear with my 300 Win Mag and the 200 LRX. Range was about 50 yards. Bear was mostly facing me (I called it in). The bullet entered where the neck joins the body but on the side then penetrated through the chest, broke the offside front leg bone, exited and then entered the rear leg. I dug it out and cleaned off the perfectly mushroomed 199 grain bullet. I am a big fan.

Yes, moose make good bullet catchers. All my recovered Barnes (3 of them) came from moose. 160gr TSX from a 7mm Rem Mag, 225gr TSX from a .35 Whelen and a 175gr LRX from a .300 WSM. This year small bull took a 250gr TTSX from my .375 Ruger in the neck and it blew right through.

I've recovered one TSX to date - 130 gr out of a 270 Wby that went diagonally through an elk from the back of the ribcage to just under the hide in front of the off shoulder.

What weight TSX .375 bullet?

Damn. I keep putting those things into deer and I've got zero return on the investment.

I have gone so far as to drag a metal detector out to where I thought I might get one back out of the dirt. I found where one hit the dirt about fifty yards beyond where Bambi stood, but that one bounced. The only one I've got back like that was out of the dirt where another guy shot the deer. The best I have done was a petal out of one that my 300 WM put into Bambi's teeth at 25 feet. That petal lodged into the spinal process above the hips.

I am doubtful I have enough years left to get one back before I die.

Matt,

Are you certain it didn't hit something first and then hit the rib already tumbling? How'd it get bent inside the chest, how'd it get a dented base if it hit the rib first?

On my range I use a half a mile of aspen cutting for backstop and I find a hugely disproportionate number of Barnes butt first into the trees. I am pretty sure they open a little and the the partially opened end acts like a drag and they keep moving butt first and still rotating so they are more inclined to stay butt first.

all the .375s are 300 grains.

the one that tumbled was a 160gr out of a 280ai

I don't think so, but you never know. the entry wound in the skin was round and the near rib was hit just on the edge.

Many hunters like to believe some expanding bullets will tumble, and some won't. The truth is they all will, given the right (or wrong) circumstances. And sometimes they'll tumble and end up as a perfect mushroom.

But, when a bullet tumbles it oftens vectors off on some new direction other than the intended one.

Not sure how Matt's bullet ended up with the posterior all dented up but it sure didn't behave like we would like to believe they should.

I think if you want to stop an X type bullet you need to wait until your bull walks in front of a tree so the tree can catch it!

Let's just say bullets that tumble sometimes veer off. Most that I've recovered that weren't pointed forward still stayed pretty much on course.

I just ran a 55 gr TTSX through a dink this morning...didnt 'catch' it....

The mono bullet fellas better continue to "tune" their offerings as we have a little issue with "no lead" bullets heading our way at some point.

Ah. But thats not related to the bullet being a barnes, just the way the cookie crumbles... arrows even do the same exact things... some things you cannot control.

Looks like those TTSX's are slippin. powdr

When spitzer bullets don't expand they immediately tumble. Bet that's what happened here.

Interesting theory.

I"ve had 2 that never expanded. One I knew would not, holes were punched on a line basically.

The other we expected to expand. Hit a rib in and rib out in a basic straight line. never saw an example of tumbling.

I have seen them bend and tumble when hitting hard stuff at hard angles though.

I have some bullets loaded for my 300/221 that are supposed to tumble and no way they will open, one of these days I will be brave enough to simply see... not yet though.

IMHO & E the 300's in 375 have too long if a shank and need a faster twist to remain 100% stabile after impact. The same with the 200 grainers in 30 caliber. I shooter nothing in mono metals heavier than 180 in 30 caliber, 225 in 338 caliber and 270 in 375 caliber.

i *THINK* it was Finn Aagaard, possibly Gayana, that liked using a certain type of FMJ 303 Brit military load on game up to the size of zebra because it tumbled after impact making for as devastating a wound as a expanding bullet.....even tumbling they staid on course well enough to be reliable on animals weighting 600 pounds or better....

I sure want to see about tumbling in the 300/221, but I"m a bit scared.. I wished I had a way to test the things before I do on a deer.... if they tumble, they will do good damage and be a good hunting bullet, but if they don't.... it would suck a bit.

Given enough medium all bullets will tumble. The all want to travel base first as the center of gravity is reawrd. Expansion and twist help keep things point forward. A bullet that consistently tumbles can be very devastating in tissue.



Rost,


What bullet are you talking about in your 300/221?

Well Barnes lost my business due to constant tuning and inconsistant results with the earlier designs. Went back to partitions and never looked back.

Those fuggers, why do they continue to try to improve a product. I quite buying cars after the changes between a 67 Chevy and a 81 Chevy.

Exactly, steelhead is spot on. Of course lost is Palidun' ability to realize that the Partion has undergone several changes in its time as well.

I'm with you on the concept but disagree about the 300gr .375s or 250gr .338s (although I do use 225s now instead). I've had nary a problem in 15 or so elk/moose.

I have had weird stuff happen with:

150gr .270
180gr .30
160gr .284

The depth of the hollow point is the same the difference is in the shank length meaning a faster twist us needed to remain stabile after impact. The added velocity is also a plus.

There is no such thing as a stable bullet after impact.

But does an 81 expand more reliably than a 67? (I would assume they are more accurate. )


No one else has made the frequent and significant changes that Barnes has. That's not saying they shouldn't seek to improve, but they've changed so often that it's been a challenge to chase the version you like when you find one. I suspect the TTSX is probably helping them achieve the reliability they've been seeking so that they can focus on consistency�..hopefully.

I found the 180 gr TTSX to be too long for the mag box on my Savage .300 wsm. Anyone else have this issue? I keep meaning to try them in one of the '06s but haven't got around to it yet.

Really? I saw a test with a flat point solid shot down an oversize bore with no rifling at all viable on the recovered bullets penetrate dead straight, every time tested. It has been demonstrated that higher twist aids in stability after impact and that the bullets continue to spin as they penetrate. A stability factor of 2 or more is needed to maintain stabilization after impact. The cartridge was the 470 Capstick

A mono metal solid of 400 grains in 416 with a 16" twist has penchant to tumble, not evry time but a good bit of the time, also with a 14 twist it happens time to time, but increase the twist to 12 and they rarely if ever tumble.

Really.

Straight doesn't mean stable, just because it doesn't tumble doesn't mean it is 'stable'.

True twist helps them not tumble on impact but they are still far from stable, coming out the other end they almost all tumble, i.e. not stable.

There are a lot of high speed videos of bullets exiting test media that do no tumble and straight line penetration is a good indication of stability.

A lot also depends on what they hit. Shooting either expanding bullets or solids into uniform media, whether ballistics gelatin or wet newspapers or whatever, isn't like shooting them into big animals made out of bone, muscle and various internal organs.

Flat-tipped solids, however, are pretty damn good. Though I've also seen old-fashioned round-nose solids penetrate a long ways and leave a nice, round exit hole on the other side of a buffalo, just where the hole should have been.

The 320 grain 9.3 Woodliegh solid is a very good straight line penetrator.

I have not recovered any TSX/TTSX our of my 270 or 30-06.
Here is a heart from this years Mulie at 110 yards. 270, 130 gr, TTSX. Thing still ran 40 yards, So I wouldn't always blame the bullet if thing don't drop right there..

The problem with the heart shot shown is the entire pump was removed, especially the suction side. Leave that heart pumping while just removing the power side and an average animal will be down in less than 7 heartbeats.

I have seen essentially the same thing many, many times and some critters go a long way with no functional heart, living seconds longer on the O2 stored in the stagnant blood. They can cover a lot of ground in seconds.

I finally caught a couple TSX bullets in June while in South Africa. These two bullets were the first I've ever collected and I've used from the 80 gr TTSX in a 243 Win to a 300 gr TSX in a 375 H&H. The interesting thing is they were both collected on the same day. I never caught another on throughout the trip.

I've shot somewhere around 30-35 animals from duiker to zebra and bull elk with TSX/TTSX bullets and finally recovered a bullet.

You'll notice the petals sheared off on both bullets with the exception of one petal on the blesbok, which was at 326 yards when shot, yet that bullet still traveled the entire length of the animal being found in the opposite rear hing quarter.

I've just about switched all of my rifles over to either a TSX or TTSX.

Funny Steelhead. The problems the early X's had cost me a lot of money and it appeared that Barnes was having us pay to test and evaluate their bullets. Barnes should have done their own homework.

Has twist even been considered a factor in getting monos to expand?

When I started shooting the 40gr vmax in a 1x7 twist AR vs 1-12 twist things seemed more explosive. I know SW also changed the twist on the M&P in the .40 because a faster twist kept bullet deflected less in the FBI protocols than the slower twist. In particular they tracked straighter through the angled windshield and steel panel test.

^^^^^^^^


Dats interesting. Thanks for that tidbit....

Yes, some people have noticed that monolithics do expand more reliably and, probably, wider when fired in a faster twist. Our friend Dwayne (BC30cal) from British Columbia has noticed the difference in how TSX's act from the fast twist in the 6.5x55 versus the slower twist in the .270 Winchester. In fact, partly because of this he discovered his .270 has a slightly slower twist than the standard 1-10. (This isn't all that unusual, especially in older rifles. Before button-rifling and hammer-forging became the industry standards, sine-bar cut-rifling machines were the primary method used by factories. The rifling they cut is adjustable, and quite a few barrels had somewhat oddball twists. One of the several older .250-3000 Savage 99's I've owned had a 1-15 twist, as I discovered after failing to get 100-grain Speer Hot-Cors to shoot in the rifle, a bullet that normally shoots fine in a 1-14 twist.)

Twist has an even more noticeable effect on lead-cored bullet expansion. The most extreme example I've seen occurred a couple years ago, when Nosler first introduced the Varmageddon bullets. I was shooting prairie dogs with the head of their rifle division, and he was shooting their new AR-15, made by the late John Noveske, with a 1-8 twist barrel, using the Nosler factory load with the 55-grain tipped Varmageddon at 3100 fps.

I brought several rifles to the shoot, but started with a tang-safety Ruger 77 in .220 Swift, which of course had the standard 1-14 twist. I'd handloaded the same tipped 55-grain bullet to 3800 fps.

Guess what? The .223 "sploded" (a West Virginia term) PD's noticeably more violently than the Swift. This didn't happen just once, but consistently, on many dogs, throughout the day, out to 300+ yards.

It seems to me that in order to prove a "bullet failure" one has to dig one out of an animal that you have on the ground! I think we ask a lot of of the bullets we shoot, we want perfect expansion every time regardless of what the bullet launcher is, regardless the range of the hit, regardless of the size of the game shot! And of course they have to group 1/2 inch or less out of our rifles. Out side of boards like this dose anybody really care all that much? Seems to me the Barnes TSX's in what ever flavor, dose the job in a ho hum manner, it puts game on the ground and meat in the freezer!

Ok boys. You all concede that twist rate has an obvious effect on bullet expansion (terminal performance). We know there is hardly any decrease in rpm's during a bullets flight time. Therefore you must concede that the bullet tests done by reducing the muzzle velocity, and therefore the rotational velocity, and then shooting into a test medium at close range DO NOT TRANSLATE into valid comparisons of the same bullet at full muzzle velocity shot into test mediums at long ranges.

True.

OK...I haven't had my coffee yet...but why not?

Seems to me a bullet going 3000fps at a 12 twist rate on impact wouldn't matter if it was a foot or a five hundred yards from the muzzle....



I'll check back when I wake up....

Because bullet spin slows down VERY slowly, while velocity slows down pretty rapidly.

A bullet started at 2000 fps from a 1-12 twist is spinning at 120,000 rpm when it hits something near to the muzzle, say some test media meant to see how much the bullet will expand downrange.

A bullet started at 3000 fps from a 1-12 twist starts at 180,000 rpm, and is still spinning almost that fast when it hits something out where velocity has dropped to 2000 fps.

OK.

Thanks, Im glad you were the one to clarify for me, cause not everyone has your ability to uh....clarify.



So why doesn't rotational spin slow down as fast?



And how do we know this? Who measured it?

Not being contentious....just wondering what kind of degree/job you'd need to be 'that guy'....

What John said.

Tom,

I dunno who first measured it, but you can actually see the difference in spin-rate in bullet test material. In clear gel the rotations can be seen in slow-motion video.

The reason rotation slows down far more slowly than velocity is there's far less air friction around the entire bullet than there is on the front of the bullet.

I was told there'd be no math...

There's always math, especially when you least expect it....

I was looking for a new signature line. Thanks JB

Also that the bullet's forward motion displaces air, while its rotational motion does not.

It's often easier to picture projectile motion in water than air. Imagine the resistance you'd feel trying to push a cylinder through water as opposed to simply spinning it about its axis in water.

It has been a few years but Winchester pushed the "buzz saw" effect of the earlier black talon and SXT rounds as "terminal ballistic advantages". I do recall seeing the clear gel shots and it was obvious there was something going on. But as I am sure someone will point out, how much spinning is going to go on as a bullet passes through an animal?

I believe the MP went from a 1-16 to a 1-12 twist but could not confirm it anywhere. I do know the added twist kept bullets much straighter going through glass. With the slower twist there will be a distinctive square edge on the lower side of the glass indicating the bullet tipped at impact. Going to a faster twist kept a much better wound track with less deflection.

Some years ago several of us were doing a lot of bullet testing in the wax of The Test Tube, a fine product that failed on the market due to underfunding by the major backer. Bullets left a permanent "wound cavity" inside the tube, and the spin of the bullet was obvious in the cavity.

The most curious aspect was with TSX's the rate of spin in the cavity increased as the bullet penetrated deeper, but in the cavity from standard bullets the rate of spin remained the same throughout. In fact, with most bullets you could measure a complete turn in the cavity, and it would perfectly match the rifling twist of the barrel it was fired from: If the barrel's twist was 1-10, then the bullet would spin one turn in 10" inside the wax. But if the bullet was a TSX (or any other "petal" type bullet) the rate of spin increased throughout the wound channel.

One of us thought this might be due to the "propeller" effect of the petals, since in an expanded TSX they're typically slightly tilted like the blades of a propeller.

Most interesting! So theoretically, game shot at longer ranges would experience more twist per distance penetrated as the bullet sheds velocity, but maintains twist?

David

That IS interesting and may help explain a little why Im getting excellent accuracy out of the 55TTSX in a 1 in 12...which they don't recommend.....

Or it could just be magic.

I can't help but wonder if it's because the Barnes maintains its weight and velocity better as it travels through the medium,maintains a consistent expanded frontal area,while conventional bullets lose weight and momentum as they are torn apart.

Good thought Bob.....

Mike378 proposed a theory to me 25+ years ago that the speed of penetration had a bearing on the frequency of speed kills. I saw that after he proposed it in the earlier X bullets which I started using in 1990.

I also saw it in very light for caliber bullet weights such as the 100gn in .270 and also at longer ranges of say 600 yards with 53gn .224's fired from the .223 Remington.

The face of an expanded petal has a ridge line that provides an additional cutting platform as well as the propeller effect JB raised.
I have never seen or used synthetic testing medium but was fortunate to learn from flesh and bone which was a help also in the unlimited volume of culling which helped to learn this.
John

Not a lot of experience with the original X, or TSX, but enough to cause some doubts. I shoot more black bears than any other big game.

Perhaps 20 years ago, I shot a big blackie (app.400 lbs) behind the left shoulder at 95 yards (over bait in dense forest) with a 200gr X in .35-cal/Whelen. MV = 2800 fps. It was edge of dark. The bear took off and was never seen again. Next day 3 of us spent most of the day searching. I found a blood splattered area in dense underbrush about 75 yards from bait. The bear evidently spent night there. It left when we arrived at about 7am next morning. After that, only pin prick droplets for a couple of hours that led us into an endless swamp. Then nothing.

5 years ago, at the same bait location, I shot a medium bear frontally, under the chin as the bear was facing me at 93 yards. The rifle was my CZ550 in .458 Win Mag loaded with the 350 TSX (a moose load) at 2750 fps MV. The bullet impacted center front chest and made exit in flank of right side just in front of hip. That bear was found 40 yards from bait, but it had made a rather wide semi-circle on its escape route. In evaluating matters after the fact, and in the gutting process, I believe that bullet never expanded.

Why? Because I've shot too many bears with a .45-70 in the same location, and elsewhere, to know without any doubts that a flat tip, heavy cast or cup and core bullet will drop them on the spot, even without any major breakage of bones or CNS hits!

Just one "For example": Rifle: NEF Handi Rifle; bullet = 465gr hardcast with a 1/4" meplat. MV = 1900 fps. Range = 70 yards. Conditions: 3-foot tall grass and wooded area. Bait on edge of woods. I was in a treestand. Bear came to bait and I could only see head and neck in the tall undergrowth. Another frontal chest hit. The "trophy quality" bear disappears in the tall weeds and grass. He was literally flattened on the spot. The "thawak" was heard by a neighbor 350 yards away, and he said to himself:"Either he hit a large tree or the bear".

The bullet was never found, never expanded, and buried itself somewhere under the bear as it made exit at the bottom of the sternum. But -- there was massive blood loss internally. Not much show on the outside though. I've had the same and similar experiences with plain jane cup and core flat tips from a .458 Win Mag and other .45-70's.

I've never had a bear disappear after being wacked by cheap cast or cup-n-core bullets from any .45-70 or .458 WM. I've never lost an animal to anything that shoots bullets in .458".

I can't say that about the X though.

Yet, this past bear season (Sept - Oct), my Ruger No.1 .45-70 Improved was loaded with the 300 TSX in hopes of better performance. But I never got a chance to try that combo as the bears didn't cooperate.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Well that seems to kill the RPM theory mentioned above.

If a bullet started out at X RPM, but then lost velocity much faster than it lost RPMs, shouldn't a 1-10 twist rifle look like a faster twisted gun at impact?

What you're telling me is what Ingwe initially thought: a bullet fired out of a 1-10 twist gun makes a complete revolution once for every 10 inches it travels the entire length of its trajectory, losing RPMs at the same rate as velocity.

BTW, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Maybe I don't understand physics very well...

This would theoretically have the opposite effect to what is observed- the mono would travel farther forward while maintaining rotational speed, while the C&C would keep spinning but slow its forward motion, showing an increase in twist as it progresses through the media.

Something else must be at play here. Perhaps the propeller effect John mentioned.

Jordan, whatever....

I understand the bullet maintaining its rate of spin, but have to admit I don't understand at all how the bullet gains RPM's as it meets the resistances of bone and flesh in a BG animal. You would think the increased resistance would work to slow everything down,not speed it up.... But we know it keeps spinning regardless.

The barnes does not have the big frontal area of some expanding bullets and the space between the expanding petals offers less resistance which is another reason I think it maintains forward velocity better.

How does the C&C gain rpm's as it's passing through the medium? It's losing weight and tearing itself apart...I have to admit I don't get it.

I would guess it appears to speed up RPMs because theoretically, as with air, the bullet is slowing up faster in flesh than it is losing RPMs.

Hi Bob,

Both forward velocity and rotational velocity start to slow down as soon as the bullet leaves the muzzle, it's just that the forward velocity decelerates at a much higher rate than the rotational velocity, especially once the bullet impacts the animal or media.

We're also adding some confusion to the mix by interchanging the term RPM (revolutions per minute, which starts to decrease slowly as soon as the bullet leaves the muzzle), and revolutions per inch, which starts to increase as soon as the bullet leaves the muzzle. Even if the bullet's rate of rotation stayed completely constant as the bullet penetrated, we would see the RPI increase as the bullet moves forward, since the forward motion is decelerating, meaning that the bullet continues to spin at the same rate, but it isn't travelling forward as fast.

Reading the propeller theory line made me frown and shake my head... Then I grabbed a few expended X bullets and looked carefully... Several things surprised me.

The bullets mostly came from a jug at the Barnes booth at SHOT, BTW.

First, the petals at final resting position are actually riding with the leading edge slightly forward on almost all of them! I would have expected the opposite due to the way they are bent back to trail both forward and rotational motion.

Second, the combination of large frontal area and the petals sticking out probably develops significant lift due to the reduced area on the back sides of the petals.

Third, the petals flatten on the former outside surface creating a ridge or hump on almost all of the petals, again, increasing the surface area of the top of the produced propeller compared to the lower surface.

It seems doable...

All I know is that when you track a bullet out across the frozen expanse of parts of the Bering Sea, the initial skip marks will be in a relatively straight line, but arc toward the right the farther you go, the arc becoming more pronounced as you approach the final resting place of the bullet.

This is a very interesting thread.

When selecting boolits for my recent elk hunt I switched midstream from the 160 gr TTSX to the 160 partition. Rifle is a 7x57. I polled some people who know what they are talking about and they mentioned the lower velocity of the 7 mauser possibly not expanding the TTSX when shooting heavy for caliber slugs. The partition sure did the trick traveling through a cow at 120 yards and blowing the heart up. Left a nice hole on it's way out as well.

That said, I live in California so I will need to find a good mono copper boolit for my rifle to hunt in state. Its been suggested that dropping to a 140 grain is the ticket when shooting the TTSX.

Would I have less concern about shooting the 160s (which my rifle likes) if I used the new plastic tip TTSX?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Also - knowing a fair bit about airplanes and propellers I'm not sure I can see a bullet mushrooming into a reliable airfoil after impact. There must be something else going on. There - now I've stirred the pot a little.

Jeff

Jordan I think I get it. I understand the benefits of the fast twist and have bullets here recovered from game that show it up pretty clearly. But the nuances of what goes on exactly(like this), is let on me....

Is this anything like a figure skater who builds momentum and then spins faster as she(he) tucks the arms closer to the body? I know it's different but maybe the analogy is helpful in trying to understand.

I always thought there must be an awful lot of pent up force in anything spinning at 200-250,000 rpm...it would pop your brains out your ears .

I don't understand it either. How about this BobinNH?

Shoot $hit and it falls over...

When all else fails....

belly deep yeah drive them fast and twist them hard and everything works out!


Tough to prove a negative and no sense worrying about what might have happened if you didn't, right?

Paradiddle:

I used to shoot 160 partitions in my .280, switched 2 years ago to 140 grain TTSX, couldn't be happier with change, four shots 4 deer, 2 dropped right there, 2 ran maybe 10m. Very little bloodshot meat. I liked the result so much that this year I have dropped down to 120 grain TTSX, haven't shot anything with this load yet but I am sure it is going to perform well.

Good to hear. Are you using the plastic tip TTSXs?

I have a couple 7x57s and a 7-08 with a lot of experience with the 120gr X, XBC, and TTSX. I do not go heavier even for big bull moose, caribou, or bears.

That is what he posted.

I've used the TSX for the last 7-8 years. I've yet to find one in a deer/antelope yet. Shots ranging from 20yds to 325yds on mule deer. No complaints. Just dead deer. Small hole in, small hole out, devastation in between. All shots from varying angles.

Is my thinking askew? I see the bullet not spinning stationary around an axis as much as an incline around an axis eg: a screw. So, if an animal is 18" thick a 12" twist rate bullet will rotate 1.5 revolutions passing through. If my thinking is anywhere correct the rotation will have only a small impact on tissue damage.

Seemingly. But perhaps the energy given off by the higher RPMs creates more of the effect than the bullet actually twisting?

Even 1.5 revolutions at 240,000 RPM would, as Bob pointed out, squeeze your brain out through your ears

Bob,

It's not that the bullet spins faster as it penetrates, but that the spinning continues as the forward motion slows down. Similar to the propeller on a boat. Picture the 'wound channel' in the water if a boat sat stationary with the propeller spinning. As the boat accelerates, the propeller starts out by spinning hundreds of times in the same place, to spinning 1 revolution every 1 foot of movement of the boat, and finally at top speed the boat travels 10 feet for every revolution of the prop. The wound channel in media would be a similar idea, only in reverse. The boat begins at top speed, and slowly comes to a stop while the propeller keeps spinning.

cavitation!

I killed lots of critters with the 140 XFB and never recovered one, but had plenty of instant tip-overs.



First time out with 120 TSX and TTSX and I wasn't so impressed. TTs seemed to work alright and expand well; not so with the T. (140s and 120s were all shot from the same rifle: 7mm-08.)

More to the point of this thread,



the first TTSX I ever fired was the 168 in 30-06 at over 200 yards. The chunk of spruce was the catch 'vehicle', assuming I hit the water-filled spaghetti bottle - which I did. Obviously, the 4-5" thickness of water affected the balance of the bullet as can be seen in the imprint it left on the wood.

Jordan I understand what you are saying.

Everyone likes to say the bullet only turns over 1-1.5 times in traveling through an animal, but expansion in that time is the same thing...it's only in an animal for a short period of time, too and look what happens...I mean looking at film of expanding bullets in medium...in that short distance and span of time the bullet is causing a great deal of damage and expands very rapidly.

It's been proven countless times and observed by lots of knowledgeable people over the years that rapid twist helps bullet expansion (no it's not solely responsible but contributes),and manifests itself with larger wound channel, or more "lift" on varmints....first mention I ever heard of any of this stuff was from John Jobson years ago...he wrote of his observations but never got into "why".

Like Varmints posted above,Bill Steigers used to tell me the faster twist also contributes to keeping the bullet point on in the animal after impact.This helps penetration...so I am hearing the same things here, today, that Bill was telling us in the 70's and 80's. of course he did a lot of testing on the matter as well.

Three 35 Whelen TSXs recovered from deer, moose and elk. All quartering away.
Hit behind paunches. Bullets found in necks, Saw/heard all three hit the ground.



The heavier the bullet and the lower the velocity, the less chance for petal loss.

Larry....





you need to disappear again ass wipe.

Yes

Translation - gut shot.

Why do you continue to insist on shooting animals in the gut and butt? You are not doing the animal or your dinner guests any favors.

120 TTSX via a 260 Rem from last week. Through and through wound. Somehow, the pig miraculously fell over DRT without a gut shot, and the meat is clean and pristine. Shot placement matters.

Gee banned again by the cowards. That only leaves about 30 user IDs left.

What a bunch of sad sacks who can never win, only annoy.

Here's my post. Count on as many more as I wish to make. LMAO

Ingwe, who would never take a shot except when the animal was standing still 100% broadside. jeffbird brags about shooting piggies in the head. I have yet to meet or read of any respected big game hunter who advocates shooting anything except Elephants in the head.

Translation is not "gut shot" it's a quartering away shot which is pretty common when still hunting in the black timber. All bullets penetrated far enough to take out vital organs and kill the animal quickly. Many bullets like match bullets or Bergers used by some uninformed folks would not have made it through a paunch.

Ingwe and the piggy shooter are engaging in childish troll slander which is no surprise.

All three animals ended up in the freezer with no damage to edible meat. Anyone who thinks a rear quartering shot or even one between the rear hams damages edible meat really doesn't know much about animal anatomy. While I could be wrong, I think the is the primary objective is making a clean one shot kill.

Another example of a shot Ingwe would no doubt pass is this speed goat taken quartering away at a trot, 230 yards, 80 gr TTSX, exiting my 30" 1885 25-06 Browning high wall at 4000 fps. Entered behind last rib, went end to end, exiting through right shoulder. He fell on his face and that was that.



An ethical hunter takes shots he knows he can make. In 54 years of hunting I have never lost a firearm shot big game animal animal. Of over 200 only 2 were shot more than once. I did lose one bow shot deer of 57 taken. Shooting birds/clay birds and 4 position rifle shooting are far better training for real hunting than sitting at a benchrest. Amusing that most hunters today think a sling is only for carrying the long gun. Some of us who served know better.

http://www.reedstargetshootingclub.co.uk/drupal/sites/default/files/images/full/riflelhs_col.jpg

I've never shot a Puma run up a tree by dogs, a baited leopard from a blind, a bear brought to bay by a dog pack or an Elk at 700 yards from a truck mounted benchrest. IMHO hunting ethics, along with ethics in general are pretty well out of style. "Men" with no balls have spoiled this site while hiding under their desks.

It seems the less "general" a site is, the better the members. Subjects are stuck to, personal attacks are dealt with and nobody posts silly pictures to degrade other members. Too bad Sgt Friday is not the site moderator here.

No bragging involved, just sharing some facts. While it may not be in your magazine subscriptions, spend time with those doing some culling and you will see that head shots are common. You remain the only "hunter" that I've encountered that intentionally and consistently goes for the butt and gut. Is there anyone other than you that advocates that?



I agree. And so you go for butt and gut shots, and this is our meat, so I prefer shot placement elsewhere. He never heard this one coming.






Wow, here we go again, you intentionally butt shoot animals, and you think you are the paragon of hunting ethics? Wow!


Maybe everyone else is aiming somewhere other than the butt or guts?

Like this?






Hmm�. I shot a few clays back in the day.

That sure didn't take long to log in on another username Larry...

Romney2016, I shoot Berger bullets at game. I agree with you: shooting something in the guts with a Berger is not a good idea. How many deer/elk/antelope/pigs have you shot with match bullets/Bergers?

I'm glad John said this. While I don't have near as much experience shooting game as John I have quite a bit and this is my experience as well.

Larry now as "Romney 2016"

Is that a loser picking a loser?

Just a thought.

DF

I thought the loser got elected.

I think you'er right.

I think the winner got elected. All the rest of us are the losers.

...that's a nice one Larry. You get him this year ?

If you're genuinely bothered by the goings on here, then why don't you stay away and avoid the hassle?

Yep, but switch your Swift to a 1 in 10 and see what happens!

Regarding the TTSX and TSX, I have shot a lot of game with them, using them almost exclusively for a while. The vast majority were in a 7x57, next a .338 WM. I haven't recovered one, three or four years ago, I shot a big whitetail at about 50 yards running almost straight away, hit him in the left hip, the 140 TTSX exited his forehead. I don't have an exact count of the numbers of game killed, but I have shot exactly one twice, the rest were killed with one shot.

Holy chit...150 yards in my world puts him on an interstate, another hunting property of in the middle of someone's backyard birthday party.
Thanks for saving me the money, I'll stick with nonpremium. Cup and core.

I had my first Barnes experience a few days ago. My load was a 338 federal, 185 gr TTSX, 48 gr 8208, CCI #200. The bullet was set .03 from the lands and went 2770 fps. The six point buck stood facing me at about 30 yards. The bullet entered the base of the neck and traveled almost the entire length of the deer. He dropped like a rock where he stood. I recovered the bullet in the bottom round while butchering him up. Here's a few photos of the bullet. It looks like it worked as advertised.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s106.photobucket.com/user/intense55/embed/story"></iframe>

Every thread on TSX's and other monolithics ends up with more than one example of a bullet entering one end of an animal and either exiting or being recovered from the other end. This is usually given as an example of their incredible penetration.

Yet I have seen this happen several times with other bullets, some that most hunters wouldn't expect to penetrate a big game animal lengthwise. Probably that one that surprises most people is the 200-grain, .338 caliber Nosler Ballistic Tip I put into the near shoulder of a bull gemsbok (a 400+ pound animal) that was almost directly facing me at about 150-175 yards. The rifle was a .338 Winchester Magnum but the bullet wasn't loaded all that hot, getting around 2900 fps at the muzzle. The bullet broke the right shoulder above the big joint, and also went through the bottom of the spine. It was recovered from under the hide on the left ham.

Have shot lengthwise through two deer, one a good-sized muley buck, with the 200-grain .30 caliber Nosler Partition from a .30-06, but have also had much smaller Partitions penetrate to the opposite end of animals. One was a 140-grain from a 7x57 that took a facing mule deer buck at the base of the throat; it was recovered from one of the hindquarters.

The other was an accidental rear-end shot on a big pronghorn buck, who happened to whirl just as I shot him with a 100-grain Partition from a .257 Roberts. The bullet broke his right hip, then went on through the body and broke his left shoulder. I found it under the hide next to the broken shoulder.

This is all fine and good, but I have shot game with Ballistic Tips that I felt were lucky to have penetrated the rib cage. In fact one of them we had to look close to see where a fragment had made it in. One a 140 gr BT shot from a 280 Remington (Broadside) and another a 150 gr BT from a 7mm MSM (steep quartering towards me). In both cases I recovered bits and pieces of bullet. None of which would have weighed much. Now I have never seen that with a TSX/TTSX. I have seen them fail to open first hand though and I've held three of those bullets in my hand. I don't like that, but I'll take the latter over the former any day. In fact, my hunting partner shot a 370 class bull elk on public land with a 140 TSX and during butchering found a C&C bullet nestled (and long since healed) against the knuckle of one of his shoulders.

I'm not a "have to use TSX's/TTSX's" person. But after using most of the others available (including boutique bullets) I keep coming back to them.

Have seen the same thing, I shot a antelope at 35 yds with a 130 interlock from a 270 win around 3100 fps. bullet shattered left front shoulder, transversed the body and shattered the right rear hip socket and was found partially through the hide tangled in the hair. Instant kill. On the other hand a friend shot a calf moose in the neck with a 120 tsx from a 7-08 at 3000 + fps from about 70 yds, broadside in the neck, it penetrated about 4 inches and smashed the spine, stopping right there in the smashed neck bones. Instant kill but was surprised it didn't go clean through. Bullets do weird things

JB: I know a dude who broke a hip on a quartering away Zebra with a 175 NPT out of a 7x57.

Bullet went the whole way through the vitals.....about 5 feet of Zebra....




Sure am glad they make TSXs now though.....

pathfinder,

Ballistic Tips are made in different jacket thicknesses, depending on the intended use of that particular bullet, and some models have even changed over the years. I didn't include the example as any sort of claim that ALL Ballistic Tips will do the same thing--but the 200-grain .338 has been made the same way ever since it was introduced in the early 1990's (though now it's only available as the 200-grain Ballistic Silvertip).

The reason it acts that was is the jacket is about 2/3 of the bullet's weight. The same contruction is also used in more recent 165-180 grain .30 caliber BT's, yet people keep saying, "Oh, no, you can use those on elk, because they blow up on deer." You might ask Shrapnel about using the 180 BT on elk from his .300 Weatherby.

Tom,

Oh, yeah, I'm also glad they make TSX's--and Hornady GMX's, and Nosler E-Tips, and several other monolithic bullets. We hunt with one or another every year.

But my experience is that there isn't a quantum leap in penetration between those bullets and some others, even lead-cores. And often the lead cores kill quicker, especially on broadside lung shots.

I've never seen a Barnes fail to penetrate. I have seen other bullets penetrate just as well, but not always. Barnes always penetrate, and I know absolutes freak people out, but I'd bet on a Barnes making it over anything else I've seen.

Mirrors my experience.

Of the bullets I've seen used considerably, the Hornady GMX and Nosler E-Tip will penetrate just as deeply, which isn't surprising since they're very similar in consttruction to Tipped TSX's. But there are several other specific bullets I've seen that will match them.

I have also seen TSX's and similar bullets fail to expand a few times, in fact I've seen them fail to expand more times than all other expanding bullets I've seen used over the decades. That doesn't happen often, but it does happen, and when it does the result can be a real PITA. They do still kill, but not nearly as quickly, and on three occasions the animal wasn't found until several days or even weeks afterward.

A bullet that doesn't penetrate enough can result in the same thing, but I have yet to see an expanding bullet that didn't penetrate sufficiently leave as little blood trail as a monolithic that didn't expand.

It's also been quite a while since I've seen a bullet of any kind fail to penetrate sufficiently, because neither I or my companions used the wrong bullet for the job. The last one, in fact, actually stayed pretty much together. That was a 220-grain Power Point from a .325 WSM that failed to get to the far lung on a zebra. The bullet retained 72% of its weight, but opened so widely penetration was reduced. The hunter was one of my partners on the safari, and he'd also brought a .375 H&H and 300-grain Trophy Bondeds for buffalo. The PH told him to put the .325 away and use the .375 from then on.

But it has been a long time since I've seen a cup-and-core fail to penetrate a deer-sized animal sufficiently, even when hit in the shoulder joint. And the animals always died pretty promptly, unlike some other animals hit with monolithics that failed to expand.

JB: Have you seen any fail-to-expand with Tipped TSXs ( TTSX)? Everyone else says this cleared the problem up....I never had a problem but switched to Tipped anyway, and damn sure haven't had a problem with them.
Your experience?

No, haven't had any problems with Tipped TSX's not expanding--or GMX's or E-Tips either.

But this year have had two reports of tips from TSX's falling out or breaking off. In one instance the fallen-out tip jammed the rifle's action. Maybe there was some manufacturing glitch, either with the tips or the bullet. That's happened with other tipped bullets in the past.

You guys that shoot animals that weigh less than you and go ga ga over the penetration of TSX's crack me up. Come on Scott.

Interesting point.

Usually Sierras get bashed here as the poster child of poor penetration. I've shot a pile of deer-sized game with Sierras over the decades, and none of the bullets weighed over 160 grains, with most in the 120-130 grain class. Have recovered two, both from deer that died very quickly after impact.

These are the only Barnes TSX/TTSX bullets I have ever recovered from game- the first pic is a 250 gr. .375 cal. TTSX recovered from a Sable antelope shot at 200 yds with a .375 Ruger, the second a 270 gr. TSX recovered from a 193 yd. shot at a Nilgai antelope- both dropped in their tracks. Both bullets were under the hide on the far side.
If there is more perfect bullet performance, I don't know what it is.

Glad you're happy, but I've seen several kinds of bullets drop 500-pound animals "in their tracks," and many of the bullets were far less than .375 in diameter and 250-270 grains in weight. In my experience dropping them right there depends more on bullet placement than the caliber, weight or make of bullet.

So here's a question: What's your definition of perfect bullet performance?

Recovered my first TTSX yesterday.

200gr .358 from a 358 WSSM launched at 2575fps.

If you believe JBM, impact velocity was just shy of 2000fps.



CR

Definition? Maybe, more of an opinion, but any bullet that kills with boring regularity when well placed certainly qualifies. Add to that a bullet that is easy to get to shoot accurately, in (for me, at least) any caliber I have loaded it for, and the Barnes TSX/TTSX certainly qualifies.
As far as performance goes, the Barnes either expands and fully penetrates, or expands and ends up under the hide on the far side. Either way, expansion and penetration, in the same bullet, seems to me to be a good thing. Are there other bullets that qualify? Certainly. But, you started this thread re: recovery of TTSX bullets- I was just contributing.

Thanks for your reply. I was just wondering, because people tend to define perfect bullet performance is various ways, some not having much to do with how well the bullets kill.

I've also had excellent luck with TSX accuracy, but also generally found the X-Bullets made in the last few years before the TSX appeared to shoot very well, which wasn't always the case with the original design. But the TSX grooves certainly solved the copper-fouling problem of the original bullets!

Good point! I forgot that I've shot less than you, know less than Mule Deer and haven't seen/shot stuff with Barnes over 200 pounds.

Please continue to impress

So following pathfucker69 and JB, if a bullet fails to penetrate a 100 pound deer that's not a good indication of how it would perform on a 1000 pound moose.

I'll remember that for my next moose hunt.

Some "old fashioned" Nosler Partition bullet performance. Is this OK or just a couple of freak accidents?

The deer was a very large muley....250ish on the hoof.

The elk was 5x6 bull.

For Bighorn, please read the captions..........I like Barnes bullets, but a few other designs work too.

And 100-125 lb deer don't require premium bullets either, just sayin'.

[bleep], 100 pound deer don't require $1000 dollar scopes either.

I'll stick with the 'premiums' on deer thank you, most especially with 22's.

Where is Savage99? All we need is for him to remind us that JB says that monumental bullets don't kill animals as quickly.

Holy balls.

True on the scopes.......don't have any in that price range anyway. Most expensive I own are VX3 Leupolds.

Agree if I were using a 22 cal for deer, which I don't, but have seen plenty taken with no-premium 22's by others.

MM

I'm not the guy that works up 15 different loads for a rifle.

One load for deer under 125 pounds shot in eastern woodlots

One load for deer shot in Montana at higher elevations, not to exceed 250 pounds

One load for Key deer, should the season ever open.


When it doubt I'll ALWAYS go on the side of penetration. I also made the switch to Barnes bullets in Alaska. Sure I don't need a premium bullet to kill 180 pound blacktails, but it don't hurt to have when you're hunting around 500 pound animals that can eat you.

Never felt the need to switch, have yet to see little deer die slowly because of Barnes bullets. I haven't shot a deer with a Barnes the previous 2 years but have killed 2 with Barnes this year. As always, the deer died quicker and there wasn't much wasted meat in the shoulder when shot with one.

I know, don't shoot them in the shoulder, only shoot them in the ribs, with the sun at your back.


Again, the cost of premium bullets MIGHT be a consideration if I was shooting 650 animals a year, but I ain't.

Hell, to read this thread you'd think I was the one the maker was continually supplying free samples too.

Or maybe that's the problem..

Nothing wrong with that philosophy if it makes you happy, & having any dangerous critters around as real possibility of running into certainly warrants bullet & caliber upgrades.

Today, & for the last 4-5 years, I've loaded more Barnes than anything else........this year I carried a 7-08 with 120 TSX's; except for the use of an occasional 120 BT in the 7-08 for WT deer, I have not loaded a non-premium bullet for hunting in 25 years or so. 270's, 280's & the 7-08 make up almost 100% of the cartridges I use.

But where no mean stuff lives & the game is smallish deer or antelope, for example, in calibers from .24 or so up, C&C bullets will suffice & in those circumstances I won't fault anyone for using them.

MM

And when exactly will this next Moose hunt be Scotty? Or wait, to have a next you need to have a first. Or are we counting tag alongs?

Scott, didn't you tell me you were looking at a Newfoundland moose hunt this year or next?

No tag alongs, but whilst we are at it sheit head, what is your name

Next year Tom.

You have to be a Canuck, can't be that much dumbphuck wrapped up in Yank.

Scott and I don't always agree, but this post hits home pretty good in regards to my views also.

TTSX have given a friend of mine thats shot quite a few different bullets, his fastest kills and shortest trails ever. At least for the last 3 or so years now.

I've yet to see one kill slowly.

They are hard to recover. Sufficiently accurate. Generally leave 2 holes(not 4 or 5....) and generally weigh pretty much what they started out as.

How thats not about the best you can ask for is beyond me.

I'm about done with Sierra game kings. Most deer shot with them have been dead. But the performance from one to another has been too erratic for me. Their SMKs perform much more consistent than their game kinds fwiw.

There are others but when you find one that works why look further typically.

And for those that think Barnes are to expensive.... I run Lehigh in my 300/221 same reason as barnes.. they work... who cares they are 80 per 50 for bullets only... By far cheap enough.

When it comes to cost... those that worry evidently have never slung 20,000 Sierra Match Kings down range mixed with a bunch of berger and jlks too in a year... year after year.... including quite a few cheaper sierras for practice....

Now if I was shooting 4-5 cases of duck loads a year at the same cost per round, then it might become significant.

Just recrunched my hunting notes from the past 20-some years of using Barnes X's and similar bullets, such as the Fail Safe, Hornady GMX and Nosler E-Tip. I included the other bullets because they have always seemed to work about the same, and crunching the numbers bears that out, but also separated the Tipped TSX's, and the E-Tips and GMX's. The animals weren't shot by just me, but were killed by hunting companions. Around 40% were taken by me and my wife.

I didn't include any animals that were hit through the spine, just animals hit through the ribs with typical heart-lung shots. The distance they went before falling was paced off to the best of our abilities.

Here are the results:

Total: 164 bullets (57% Barnes)

17 Cartridges:.22-250, .240 Weatherby, .257 Roberts, .257 AI, .25-06, .257 Wby., 6.5x55, .270 Win., .270 WSM, 7x57, 7mm Rem. Mag, .308 Win., .30-06, .300 Win. Mag, .338 Win. Mag and two wildcats, .338 WSM and 9.3 BS

17 species: whitetail, mule, fallow and axis deer; pronghorn, elk, moose, feral pigs, nilgai, hartebeest, gemsbok, blue wildebeest, zebra, springbok, Cape buffalo, blesbok and warthog

Average distance lung-shot animals went after shot:
Barnes X�s overall: 47.0 yards
TTSX only: 40.7
Fail Safe, E-Tip, GMX: 55.7
E-Tip, GMX only: 44.0 yards

The "tipped" bullets do seem to kill quicker than the hollow-point bullets, whether the original X or Fail Safes, but my notes on other bullets show lung-shot animals falling quicker, on average. The quickest-killing bullet among my notes is the Berger VLD, which so far has averaged 18 yards with heart-lung shots.

If I have time soon, may break out the numbers on deer-sized game from the rest.

That's impressive record keeping.

Do you have Nosler Partition data that you could include too?

MM

This is pretty close to where we are with today's bullets:



I have had around 10% of the moose I've killed tip over immediately up impact; one with a 190 Interlock out of the 30-06, one with a 225 XFB w/ 340 Weatherby -(he obviously wasn't going to stand only on his two hinds since both fronts were taken out), one with a 250 GameKing and the 340, and one with a 220 Core-lokt an the 30-06. All the rest taken with Core-lokts, Interlocks, Partitions, A-Frames, Grand Slams, TSXs, XFBs, Hot-Cors, NBTs, etc all stood there for awhile or went a short distance before keeling over.

I'd prefer to update it, as I did this data, but right now don't have the time. May do it in the next few days. What I remember is animal lung-shot with Partitions averaged about 35 yards before falling.

The basic indication of the data is that the more weight bullets lose the quicker they kill, assuming penetration to the other side of the chest. This correlates with what many (but not all) forensic ballisticians believe, because more weight-loss results in more destruction to the vitals.

It also correlates with extensive field-testing from several bullet companies, including those in Europe, where a lot of hunting is done on small properties. An animal that dies on a neighbor's property belongs to the neighbor.

One well-known company over there once killed over 500 animals in testing new bullets, and the one they decided to sell as their "stopper" of smaller game such as roe and fallow deer, or mouflon sheep, was a semi-fragmenting type.

This doesn't mean bullets that don't lose weigh won't kill well, but as many of us have noted, they often kill quickest when shot into shoulders, partly because shattered bone then acts as secondary fragments, damaging more tissue.

Thanks..........looking forward to seeing it when you get around to it.

MM

John

Can you refresh my memory on shot placement with bergers.

As you know I thought I was hunting wiht the target ones... and evidently mine were so old I was hunting with the hunting ones before they were...

I"ve not seen any deer shot in the ribs, no shoulders, but lungs, from 308/185s go short like 20 steps. Only thing I"ve seen do that is 257 wtby and ttsx.

Though I rarely have seen anything with bergers go further than wiht barnes. usually its about the same, sans the 257 examples.... More or less 50 steps give or take.

Jeff,

Of course other factors have an effect as well, such as velocity. My guess would be that 185 VLD's at a typical .308 muzzle velocity just aren't going to do the amount of damage as when started at higher velocity.

The Berger kills in my notes are with bullets at higher muzzle velocities. Many are with the 185 .30 but only from the .30-06 at 2800 and the .300 Winchester at around 3050. The other Bergers have been started at velocities in the 2900-3000 fps range, whether 115's from the .257 Roberts, 140's from the 6.5-06, or 168's from the .30-06.

I've found Tipped TSX's (or other monos) to kill quickest when relatively light small-diameter bullets are started fast, and I don't mean 3000 fps but as much over that as possible. Eileen and I have had very good luck, for instance, with the 90 E-Tip at 3400 out of the .240 Weatherby and the 100 TTSX out of the .25-06 at 3350 or the .257 Weatherby at 3550.

At moderate velocities have also had good luck with big, heavy TSX's of at least .33 caliber, again probably because they make bigger holes. Even then, however, have had quicker lung-shot kills, on average, with bullets that lose some weight, say up to 20%. But 20% fragmentation from a bullet of 250 grains amounts to as much shrapnel as a 40% loss from a 125-grain bullet. Of course, big bullets are probably going to be used on game bigger than deer, too.

I need to emphasize that I LIKE Tipped TSX's, and have since they came out. A big percentage of the animals Eileen and I have taken this year were taken with them, though I've also used some Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Partitions. May use something else next month in South Texas. Dunno what it will be yet, but there's always something to learn.

What cartridge?

Can't say that I have had any slow kills with TSX bullets, pull the trigger and that's that.

I don't know about JB's data, but my data just isn't telling me a damn thing useful about how far a deer goes after it's hit.

For example, the last five killed with Barnes T-EZ muzzle loader bullets. Four hit the ground where they stood. No CNS hits. The one that made it fifty yards or so was hit through the lower part of each scapula and from the wound evidence is the one I would have bet the most money on being dead in it's tracks. All five had completely wrecked chest contents, hearts loose in the chest and lungs turned into red soup.

I killed three with Barnes CF rounds last year. Two were .223 53 grain TSXs one was a .270 110 TTSX. All three had hearts loose in the chest and wrecked lungs. The two with the .223 went 100 feet. The .270 deer went about 70 yards. Where the .270 deer stood was a handful of heart, lung, rib and muscle tissue.

I generally shoot them the same way and the results vary. About half drop into their shadow. The rest run some, but it's usually not far. The wounds all look about the same to me, and from looking at the holes in Bambi I wouldn't begin to try to guess what it was shot with. Sometimes little bullets make big holes, sometimes big bullets make little holes.

The deer I clip the brain stem on invariably drop right there. The deer I shoot through/behind the shoulders have no respect for caliber or velocity and do what they do despite my intent or wishes. I haven't shot a seer with anything but a Barnes, GMX or E-Tip in a long time. The only difference I can say for certain exists between monos and C&C bullets is that monos tend to make smaller holes in the hide and tallow layers and I am pretty sure that makes for lesser blood trails.

I agree. The internal destruction with TSX/TTSX is massive and IME kills as quickly as any bullet out there on average. Between myself and friends and family that I hunt with, we are near or over hundred animals

Monos kill quickly with boring regularity in my experience.

They do in mine too. It just sometimes takes longer. And the average distance the 3 lung-shot deer went that Miles mentions comes out to 45.3 yards, which just about exactly matches my statistics.

As for massive internal damage, I have seen quite a bit from TSX's and other monos in SOME instances, and in other instances not so much. As noted above, a lot depends on muzzle velocity. And I have yet to see the internal damage from ANY mono come anywhere near to what happens with a Berger VLD started at 2800-3100 fps at typical hunting ranges. Everything is relative.

The last animal my wife killed this fall with the 100 TTSX at 3150 fps from her NULA .257 Roberts (the same rifle and load she used on all the others, including a cow elk) was a 3-year-old mule deer buck. She talked to within slightly less than 100 yards, and put the bullet about a third of the way up the body, tight behind the shoulder, with the buck standing as near perfectly broadside as they get.

At the shot the buck just started walking off through the sagebrush, in no hurry. There wasn't any indication he was hit, no jump or twitch or anything else, and while Eileen was very sure of her hold, decided to shoot again, with the deer now quartering away along the hillside. Apparently that bullet deflected on some sagebrush, because when he dropped (just about 50 yards from where he was shot) there was only one hole directly through the chest, broadside, exactly where she'd aimed the first time.

There was a little blood where the buck was hit, but no spray of lungs or other tissue. While the lungs were collapsed from a good-sized hole, and the blood vessels on the top of the heart messed up, the damage wasn't exceptional. I have seen more from TSX's, but this looked typical--and I've seen a hell of lot more not just from VLD's but many lead-cored bullets, including Sierras, Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Ballistic Tips--as well as quicker kills.

If you guys can explain the physics of why a bullet that doesn't shed any weight destroys more tissue than those that spin off multiple shards, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

My experience with TSX bullets have been that they kill extremely well, as well as any that I have used or seen used. I have been hunting since I was in grade school and will soon be 64. I don't doubt your experience at all, but it does not mirror mine. With the people that I have hunted with and my own kills we must be at 100 or more and all agree that they kill extremely fast. I hit a doe very far back several years ago and she was down in less than 10 steps from where she was hit. No bone was hit, blood every where.

In my expereince once the wound channel is large enough, a larger one will not be fatal any faster. In other words if a quarter size hole through the heart brings the blood pressure to zero quickly, then a silver dollar size hole will not be fatal any faster.

I personally don't think they do produce more damage than anything else. When I used to shoot C&Cs sometimes I did produce really nasty holes.

But... I am not at all sure that they do not produce pretty well equal damage over the longer run.

Of the four that dropped in their tracks last week, the one am butchering today had all but an inch of about 1/2 the diameter of the onside humerus just plain gone, and the remnants of the bone were pretty well reduced to BB sized gravel throughout the wound channel of that leg. I am sure some of that bone was lost in the chest, but the off side hole only had a few chips. All four of these were hit ahead of the crease. All four the lungs were just red soup, and the remnants of the heart were loose.

I will grant this regarding them, This was just plain killing to get rid of some of the overpopulation in my neighborhood. As such I wanted them down now instead of ending in front of one or another of my neighbor's dining room windows at supper time. And, there is some difference between a T-EZ and a TSX or TTSX. But, the holes were absolutely consistent with a whole bunch of them I have killed with X, TSX and TTSX bullets.

If you take all 8 deer I described above, the average distance traveled after the hit is 70 feet or 23.33 yards if I added them all correctly in my head. Still not a number that means anything to me. The three that I shot with the CF guns I was killing but conserving meat The five I shot with the ML rifle I wanted them all on the ground ASAP. The CF rifle kills were pretty typical of my experience with monos and deer shot with the intent to conserve meat excepting those I clip the brain stem on. Almost without exception The heart(remnants)is loose in the chest and the lungs are red soup. That, from any angle I put the bullet in. The deer I have done that to with C&Cs in the past were about as variable in the distance they ran.

Off hand, I cannot think of a deer I wanted on the ground right now with a mono that didn't comply. I do not shoot real long range, but my average runs about 130ish, which for Minnesota is probably more than twice the average. I do not think my experience is representative of many deer hunters. I have not had to be concerned about GETTING a deer. I have been able to pick and choose for a long time. I frequently watch a deer for an hour or more before I decide it looks tasty enough. I prefer shooting nice fat fawns or yearlings because I only shoot for my table. That more than likely skews what happens because the deer tend to be smaller.

My experience may well be distorted too, because I have seen a lot of deer hit with C&C bullets run a long ways. That includes deer where the bullets deflected of a rib and the deer went a hell of a distance before I stopped it. Something think should be considered as part of the C&C experience. Something which I have never seen a mono do which is part of that experience.

JB,I witnessed almost the same thing on a WT buck last week.

My brother shooting a 243 with 85 grain TSX's that I load for him, shot a buck at a ranged 270 yards. At the shot, the buck showed zero reaction. It sprinted 150 yards, up a slight hill and into the timber and out of sight.

My initial thought was it was a clean miss. My brother said the shot felt good except for the fact that the buck had just started to step forward when the trigger broke.

We had perfect snow for tracking and went over to take a look. Zero sign of any hit and anything at all would have been easy to see. We followed the tracks into the timber 75 yards and still nothing. By now we had probably gone close to 250 yards and saw nothing to indicate a hit.

We went on another 20 yards in the heavy timber and there lay a very dead buck. The bullet had just knicked the very back of the lungs a bit above center chest and exited.

I fairly new with using the 85 TSX and have never seen a deer make it this far with lung damage. Part of me wonders if using a bullet that fragmented more would have done more damage on this fringe hit and shortened the trailing. On dry ground, with no snow, I'm afraid this buck would have been a tough recovery.

Lonny,

My experience is bullets that fragment more do kill quicker when placed further back in the lungs. In fact when using Berger VLD's I normally aim a little further from the shoulder, say a hand's width, on deer-sized game, because they do so much more damage to the vital organs.

The last animal I shot with them is a good example, a pronghorn buck that was angling a little toward me at 162 yards. I put the 140 6.5 that hand's width behind the shoulder, and it exited the rear of the ribs on the far side. The buck went 10 paces. I've seen a few deer-sized animals lung-shot with VLD's go farther, but 25 yards is normally about the limit.

jwp,

I would agree, but only IF the bullet hits the middle of both lungs and the area around the top of the heart. If the shot isn't so perfectly placed, then a larger wound channel usually makes a noticeable difference.

One of the most astonishing kills I've seen with Berger VLD's was a big red stag shot with a 115-grain .25 at about 200 yards. The stag (as in Lonny's example) moved just at the shot, and the bullet landed at the rear of the rib cage. The stag started walking off and I was just about to try to help out the hunter with my own rifle, when the stag keeled over dead, after going around 15 yards. The bullet hit the front edge of the liver and the very rear edge of the right lung.

I hit that doe very far back and fully expected a long tracking job. Blood blown out the exit was less than 10 steps to the doe. The monos have killed exceptionally well for us.



The 7RM is the smallest we shoot. I use either a 300 win or a 30-06. Want to take one with the 6.8 soon.

Miles,

Generally, I have seen monos of whatever type kill similarly to other bullets, but there have been a number of exceptions, even with bullets that centered the top of the heart and both lungs. While there has been some overlap in damage from various bullets, the average internal damage from monos hasn't been nearly as much as from Berger VLD's. In fact every hunter who'd never seen them used before commented on the amount of damage.

I also can't recall a C&C bullet being deflected noticeably on deer, whether from a rib or anything else, but have seen some come apart completely on shoulders. In fact, the very few bullets I've seen deflected noticeably on big game were "premiums", and all hit heavy bone animals from cow elk size up.

I also don't rely only on my experience when making these comments. As noted earlier, some bullet companies do extensive testing of bullets on animals, and every test I've seen came to the conclusion that fragmenting bullets killed measurably quicker on shots not involving shoulder or CNS placement.

I also know a lot of outfitters. One here in Montana primarily guides for deer, including a lot of whitetails on riverbottoms. His hunters take dozens every year, and he's been outfitting for over 30 years. He absolutely hates monolithic bullets, as well as most other premiums, though does grudgingly admit Partitions and AccuBonds work "okay." this is because e's had to chase down so many deer hit with bullets that don't do much damage. Now, no doubt his hunters don't always hit deer nearly as perfectly as you do, but even for his own hunting this guy prefers Sierra GameKings of at least moderate weight for the caliber, and suggests them in his brochure.

I know I shouldn't care all that much, but I get into these bullet threads. I've paid close attention the last couple years, and I've noticed that when hunting, the bullet is barely an afterthought when looking at downed animals. Other than at that moment, there are 1000 other things that have my attention. I know that it all comes down to confidence, but I also remember when I didn't know and didn't care about differences in bullets, and I still killed game. Taking out a youngster for his first deer the last 2 years, I was reminded of that. Neither knowing nor caring, these boys still made good shots after doing everything else right.

Bullet performance takes up about 25% of my hunt thinking while in the 11 months of not big-game hunting, and less than 1% in that month of season. I've still not seen enough difference in how the various bullets perform terminally to say that one is ideal while another is poor. Not in 30 years. I've not carried a boomer though, and maybe that makes a difference. I've aimed for heart/lungs always, and maybe that makes a difference. I haven't taken questionable(for me) shots, and maybe that makes a difference.

Yeah, I know what you mean... Riley only weighs about 160 and uses 80gr TTSX for most stuff. He likes the penetration...



This moose actually caught one of those 80grainers...




Same caribou's heart at about 340 yards.


Some times he shoots heavier bullets, too.


I use them too, but I outweigh most of what I shoot, too.


[img]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/24quarts/Jeffs%20Bear%202012/jeffandbear.jpg[/img]

Both of the last two brown bears had complete pass-throughs with TSXs, end-to-end.

What caliber did you use, Art?

I used the 270gr TSX in the 375AI. On the second bear from the end I shot once lengthwise and it was then shot by Paul 4 times broadside at less range with the 375 and 300gr Accubonds, and only the lengthwise TTSX made it all the way through. All four Accubonds stayed in the bear.

On the last bear I had 4 complete end-to-end pass throughs on an unhappy bear. He also got 3 equal shot with the 338 and 210gr TTSXs.

For bears especially I want large gaping wounds!

Sweet Eileen--the Buck Whisperer! The secret's out now.

She's killed some animals at 400+ yards, but prefers getting as close as possible!

Gee, did you think I was talking to you? And did I say somewhere that I don't like TSX's? I'm talking to people who shoot 150lb whitetails and are venomously adamant that you need a TSX or you might as well stay home.

It was a comment on a public forum, Dude... Both ways...

And having seen Steelhead posting for over a decade, going back to his time spent living in AK, I think his views are quite worthy.

I also see a huge difference in how much meat gets ruined with C&C bullets compared to the X iterations and have seen it first hand on a pretty big pile of very varied, very dead critters. And Steelhead has mentioned that more than once.

Pretty much this.

I've yet to go over to TTSX/TSX in my rifles due to the pile of other bullets I have now.

Son shot a decent 7 point last week. 80 yards, 243 Interlock. Killed the deer dead. Went 20 yards with its heart in 2 pieces. ZERO blood trail. Same load last year, deer went 90 yards with a goo for lungs - same song and verse. Literally zero blood trail. Caught neither one.

I don't have it figured out just yet.

There are oodles of people who have watched his posts throughout the years. That is why we've come to the realization that post count doesn't necessarily equate to anything worthy of listening to. If you go back and read, we are talking about penetration. Not meat wastage.

I'm not saying don't shoot deer with them. I'm saying don't tell me that it is necessary for proper penetration.

Did not take much of a look through your posting history to find you really only want to be a prick to a bunch of folks. Obviously trying to pretend your way into some sort of internet clique respect.

There goes the image of the Canadian Nice Guy...

And again, what is your name ace? Did I stick my dick in your wife/mother/sister more than once whilst traveling through Canada?

Sorry bout that, but it's pretty obvious someone needs to breed the stupid out of you folks.

I've read this thread and have a couple thoughts to add.

I come from the camp that believes deer may travel a little farther after being hit by a TSX -- the TTSX may fair a little better from what I've seen.

With that being said, I primarily hunt with TTSX's (actually exclusively this year). I use other bullets too, simply because I like trying other stuff.

I also come from the camp that believes speed kills -- or the trauma from speed accelerates the kill. I like driving mono's fast, from fast twist barrels. I think twist helps in the killing process, buts that's another topic.

I've killed deer with about every bullet imaginable and I can honestly say no bullet compares to the mono's when talking lack of meat trauma.

My son killed a small doe late yesterday afternoon. He was using a RAR 223 and a 50 TTSX. The range was about 75 yards. He hit the doe on the on shoulder and the bullet exited just behind the opposite shoulder, blowing through a rib, then hide. The deer made a 30 yard death run and collapsed.



The heart/lung area was jello. There was trama at the exit, but a lot of bone was being pushed as well. It was to get warm today, so I skinned it early and got it on ice.

This is the entrance wound....



The deer was hanging when I took the picture -- that's why the hole looks oblong. When the leg is picked up to mimic the standing position, the hole looks round....and it's round all the way through the shoulder. The back side of the shoulder had the "jello" under the membrane, but it came clean after pulling the membrane then washing.

I see examples like above quite often with mono's and that's why I continue to use them. They may run a little farther than they would have with a cup and core bullet, but I've yet to loose one. I've never worried about blood trails when I can see them fall...

There he is! You've had about every type of weather you can have for a season..

60 here right now. Last week didn't get above freezing. It's been a crazy November and these kids have worn me out!

I hate hypocrites worse than anything else............

John, you never have to justify liking or disliking any bullet for me.

We all get to liking what we like. Long as it works for us thats all that matters.

I had forgotten about how slow the 308 is... you are probably dead on there in regards to damage. I forgot that I looked at those wounds and thought how much perfect they were to me and hence would not use them in my 300s.. unless I went up and I don't think they make any over 210 and that might not be stout enough for my tastes.

In regards to damage, I have NO clue on how a bullet that stays in one piece mostly, can do more damage than ones that come apart but we've seen that quite often too, and to top it off, its internal to teh organs... it rarely does anything to the meat... that one baffles the hell out of me. But it happens and I'm not unhappy about it.

In fact am going to see how light I can find barnes in .277 for my buddies dad... his shot placement approaching 90 isn't all that great.... 130 interlocks have been ok but if i can find say a 90 ttsx and run it a bit faster than 3000 somehow of course... we may have to experiment...
If he wasn't so stubborn I'd buy him a 257 wtby....

Try the 85 TSX at 38-3900 from the 270. I'd planned to use one this year but didn't. It's still high on my "try" list....

That's crazy talk. Try killing something bigger than you....

Jeff,

A good friend of mine here in Montana is using the 85 TSX at warp speed with Reloder 17 in his .270 Winchester, and likes it a lot. I believe he started using it at 3400 but now it's started at 3900.

This summer I worked up some .270 loads with the 95 TTSX and RL-17 that gets 3400 from the 22" barrel of my Model 70. This fall I went traditional with a 130 Hornady and H4831, mostly because I hadn't shot anything with a .270 for a while, but will probably use the 95 TTSX next year for something.

I'd have to go east and get I to the elk herd for that to happen....but I wouldn't be scared!

Your self-loathing must hurt... Just sayin'.

I'm like most of y'all in as much I have shot and killed more stuff than I can count or even remember. I've shot and not found only 2
Specimens. It's something far less than 1% of critters shot not put In a pot

It's been a while since I shot anything with anything other than a tsx, but last week I shot a deer with a 120 fusion @ about 2900fps from my 7mm08 and when I started to skin itI out I got a little sad about the obvious waste. The bullet went through ribs on each side no worries, but the doe took a step forward, on the offside- pullin the onside shoulder into "impac area". Anyway it's shoulders were an absolute mess, and it made me feel bad. I can't get 120 tsx going as fast as some claim to in a 7mm08, which is why I didn't use them this time.

Well- I'm back on the wagon. I don't think ill ever choose a projectile for hunting based on whether or not it'll kill something where I can fin and pack it out. In that regard bullets are like steelhead flies. They all work. To me it's all about table quality. Anything I can do to improve table quality ima fan of and that includes shot placement (please, no guts or buttts) and bullet selection- and mono's can't Be beat when it comes to not screwing up meat

They might not be tough on meat but they sure work wonders on mountain goat brains, don't they?

Hahaha. "Skull shuckers. Effortlessly Strip that skull of eyes, brains and horns in moments." I thanked him again the other day for saving me all that cape and skull weight on the pack out. Alot of guys are just totally self serving and would want to preserve all the trophy they could knowing they'd be carrying the same load down the hill either way- but not Riley.... If I'd known he was gonna give it that treatment I wouldn't have carried anything but a daypack. Thrown a quarter in it and put each horn in one of the little pockets on my carharrts and called it good.


Do you know offhand how fast your 7/08 and 7x57 120 ttsxs are going? If I felt like I was able to start them @ 3k I'd be pretty happy- but I don't think I'm there and I don't have any chrony access down here.

This is the conundrum- I hate trying to milk fps from a short rifle and a common sense cartridge but legitimately- if I can't start one @ 3k fps or more- I'm less enthralled by mono's. I'm comfortable with 130's in a 308, 150's no so much. And 100s in a bob are tits and I have *reason to believe* I could do with 80s or 85s whichever it is in that same cartridge though I see no reason to go smaller than 100.

7mm08 doesn't quite have a tsx that I can get completely onboard with. Though I know it's going to all work out fine- and ill be happy with the 120's... I just need to shut up and shoot them.

H4350 and 120 TTSXs give me 3k on the button from a 22" 7-08 tube...and accounted for an elk and three deer this year ranging from 80-340 yards. Performance was awesome on all accounts and nothing made it further than about 40 yards.

Dave

While assisting process a Cow Elk yesterday. I dug a 130gr .270 Tipped TSX out of a Leg Joint. It had become a Wad cutter Shape Solid at 87.5gr. Stripped the complete front off bullet.

Re meat damage. I shot a nice size cow elk the other day at under 100 yards with a 180 gr TTSX going 3400fps. There was a fair amount of bloodshot; comparable with a lead and copper bullet, but the blood cleaned up just fine. And a minimal amount of meat was lost. Bullet entered into the meat of the onside shoulder and broke the off side shoulder on exit. Cow ran for 25 yards with no blood, then after that Ray Charles could have tracked her the remaining 25 yards.

I shot a large bodied whitetail buck last week using a 120 TTSX out of my 7-08 at around 2950 fps MV. The buck was feeding in a wheat field at roughly 250 yards and ever so slightly quartering towards. As the shot broke, he took an additional step towards me making it even more of a quartering shot. He bolted with tail down and I heard the audible thump of a hit. As I worked the bolt, I was preparing to shoot again while he was running. As I got him back in the scope, he took the fatal nose dive and did a big summersault just at the edge of the field. He had probably ran about 100 yards. Once I stepped up to him, I was surprised to see the shot was much further back than anticipated. The bullet clipped the right lung and absolutely blew apart his liver exiting out the other side. I was very happy with him dropping so quickly with a marginal shot.

I killed two cow elk earlier this year with this same combination. One cow staggered maybe 5 yards and the other made it 20-25 yards, both shot perfectly thru the lungs.

If you like massive internal damage, take a look at the CEB bullets in the Raptor lines. I shot a few whitetails and a blue wildebeest over the past few years out of my 300 Win Mag and the 145 gr ESP Raptor. If you like soup for internal organs, this is the bullet for you. I had one doe make it maybe 50 yards before piling up with a shot too low and the rest were DRT or within 10 yards of the shot. The wildebeest made it probably 30 yards from the shot before piling up to a quartering away shot placed on the crease 1/3rd the way up. The skinner commented that the bullet was too messy. I asked him why and he said too much blood when gutting. I wasn't present when the skinning and gutting took place.