My friend has nearly 22 preference points for Big Horn Sheep. He is currently building a new custom rifle in 7mm magnum, and is a very experienced hunter. The twist rate of his new rifle is 8.5".

I am on a mission to determine what bullet choices he should consider, should he get drawn in the next few years.

Items to consider.
He is comfortable shooting up to 450yds-500yds
Wind
Elevation
Drop animal in his tracks
Cape damage
Proven

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Sakohunter264;
Good evening to you sir, hopefully this finds you well and you're as ready for Christmas as you'd hoped to be by now.

Rather than suggest a specific bullet, I'll just say that in my personal experience hunting sheep locally and in talking to many successful resident sheep hunters, a whole lot of rams get shot at 100 yards or less.

When I found a legal California Bighorn ram on the mountain behind our house, it was by chasing them in the timber where we hunted whitetails later in fall and the shot was close and fast.

Again my personal experience is limited to a single ram, but in talking to folks there seems to be consensus that sheep aren't that hard to kill - very similar to a mulie or whitetail buck - certainly less "tough" than a mountain goat.

Cape damage can be pretty graphic and still made to disappear by a decent taxidermist and for me wouldn't even be on the radar.

I'd choose the bullet combination that the particular rifle I was going to carry liked the best - and the rifle would be one that I can shoot quickly and efficiently under pressure with.

Lastly, the complaint I've heard the most often from local sheep guides regarding their hunters is that they can't shoot quickly from field positions.

Anyway sir, hopefully that information was somewhat useful to you or someone out there tonight. Good luck to your friend on his sheep hunt and all the best to you this Christmas season.

Dwayne

Ny basic inquiry would be, WHY would anyone want a 1-8 1/2 twist in a 7mag?? that would seem to be for use with a 175 gr or so bullet. Might stabilize lighter ones, but why go for the long heavy bullets when not needed on Sheep. Also, though could just be personal preference, why a 7Mag? why not a 280 Rem or O'Connor's 270. He killed a number of sheep with that round. Warren Page used an (essentially) 7mmRem mag, and one load, with the 175gr bullet. But he was an experienced hunter, so using a perhaps slightly overweight bullet not a big disadvantage (Warren killed over 400 head of game with his rifle, so knew it well). Seems to me some people start looking at a project, and then don't get all the information they need on what will be needed. Like Dwayne noted, a whole lot of sheep shot under 100 yds. So why not a 280 or 06?

Whatever shoots best in his rifle. A few I'd look at are 160gr accubonds, 168gr vld, and 145lrx if he wants copper.

The twist is for long Bullets. My 7mm rem mag with a 1-9" Starts shooting well at 175gr. The Sierra SPBT Game King Is What I found it likes. Sheep Here are in Areas with lots of wind. Long Heavy Bullets Are not a bad thing. My Odds of drawing a Sheep tag are microscopic, But I do hunt Elk Exactly where Sheep live. Last year I watched a 5x5 Bull with no way to sneak into shooting range. I would hate to be sitting on a rim looking at a nice ram, Holding a rifle that could not make a 450yrd shot in a swirling 15mph wind. If I was holding the 7mm with 2900fps 175gr Sierra. I would Kill the sheep with out much self doubt of making the shot.

Why not a 7mm? I'd also twist it similar.I'd like twist for mono's and heavies. Sounds pretty well thought out to me, except having to ask what bullet.

With that twist I'm betting he had heavies in mind. I'd roll with 180 bergers or Scenar-L's. I use the 180 Scenars in my 7.

A Nosler Partition would be my first choice, because I don't think there is a bullet that would be more likely to work at all ranges with all kinds of shot placements (through shoulders, behind the shoulder, raking shot, Texas heart shot).
Bullet would be my last worry or close to it. I'd want a rifle the was DEPENDABLE in all kinds of weather, a bomb proof scope and mounts and I'd spend a few hundred rounds shooting ground squirrels with it. About 7 1/2 pounds would be the right weight, light enough to carry up the mountain but heavy enough to settle down when you are winded.
The three places I have hunted sheep (ewe tags) are also places I hunt mule deer and what works on one will work on the other.

My Remington KS likes the 140 TSX over 66 gr RL-19 3036 fps IIRC. That bullet is fantastic.

Thats not the question he asked.

Take your rants elsewhere azzhat

To the OP:

160 Accubond is about as good of a 7mm bullet that has ever been made for general purpose hunting

If he wants a bonded type bullet the 175LRAB would be a good choice as well.

Not that the 175-180's are needed for 500 yards, but they have great terminal performance along with their great flight characteristics.

I'm also a fan of the 145 LRX.

I adopted the philosophy a long time ago that every shot at a BG animal is the shot of a lifetime because once you pull the trigger, you can never call the shot back. So I don't treat a hard to draw tag any different from a whitetail in the back 40.

Plus I don't like over thinking these things....gives you heartburn and keeps you awake at night.

If I did not plan on shooting any further than 600 yards (that's it for me) my choice in the 7 Rem mag would be a 160 gr Partition in 7mm....on that sized game if I plant it on the shoulder I know he's going to fold like a rag doll and the cape will be in good shape....and if he presents something of a long angling shot the bullet will make it to the boiler room. Few things are as predictable, and reliable when it comes to killing.

A pal who used to post here has taken all species of North American game three times...that's three Grand Slams of sheep so he has more experience on lifetime shots than most of us could imagine.All this was done with Nosler Partitions and Bitterroot bonded cores.

He seems to be working on round #4 and has been doing it the last 4 years with a 7mm Mashburn and 175 gr TBBC,including a record book desert ram in Sonora last January. I'd grab the Partition myself out of long familiarity. A guy should shoot what he knows and has confidence in.

I certainly would not be experimenting. Once in a lifetime shots occur....uh....once in a lifetime.

Load them up and go with the most accurate.

My vote is for the 160 gr. Nosler partition as Bobin suggested. I've also had good luck with the Hornady 162gr. BTSP interlock..

Thank you everybody. Please keep the comments coming, the 160gr partition secretly was at the top of my list however IF by some strange chance they don't shoot well out of his rifle we need a plan B,C,and,E. In addition my experience, which is 15 years of reloading, the partitions sometimes aren't as accurate as some bullets at 200-300yds. I really like the idea of a well constructed boat tail bullet, vs. flat base but maybe my thinking is totally wrong.

A little more about the rifle:
Darcy Echols Stock: Edge Fill
Winchester G stainless Action CRF
Custom Aluminum bottom metal
1-8.5" Twist #2 benchmark Barell
Timney Trigger
Cerekoted Matte Black
Swarovski 3-10 Z3 scope
Talley lightweight lapped rings

Sako what happened to the original trigger (grin)?

Only kidding.

Anyway as far as Partitions not shooting is concerned we know they shoot in some rifles. I have never seen them NOT shoot in a good custom barrel.I have noticed they like to be seated straight meaning I've seen a problem load go from mediocre to very good if runout was kept low.

The other thing is I have seen them start to shoot as "top end" for the cartridge was approached,and often you can watch this happen on the target.

That said a combination I have liked the past few years in the 7 Rem Mag has been the 150 gr NPT and the 150 BT. Pushed to about 3150 both bullets have shown very good accuracy and in my rifles POI has been the same to 500 yards where the BT will hit very slightly higher (maybe the width of my hand).

Obviously the 160 AB would be another great choice.

Personally I'd use the Fed215 primers. Powders are 7828, H4831,and RL25. Have not tried the new RL powders designed to be less ten sensitive.

140 grain TTSX will git r done with ease. The 8.5 twist is good

I have a Grand Slam, a free-range aoudad, and a mountain goat on my wall.

I took the Stone with one shot at 200+ yds with the 7mmRM and the 140 NPT. Same with the aoudad, at 180 yds. The goat was taken at a bit over 100 yards with the 160 NPT.

Sheep are not difficult to kill; I'd say that most are born looking for a place to die. Caribou too. I took my Rocky Mnt ram with a 140 NBT from a .284 ULA, the dall with a 150 NPT from a .30-06, and the desert with a 120 NPT from a .25-06.

To be perfectly honest, all the above bullets worked just fine. I'd let your rifle choose its favorite bullet. Then go hunting.

Brain Leitz dominated his first F-TR match with a 9 twist 308 win

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ever-f-tr-match-with-pierce-built-rifle/

Nothing wrong with the twist choice of 8.5.

Sounds like he'll probably just pick the bullet he likes as that rifle if it is screwed together decently should shoot everything pretty well.

Good luck, I'd be all over a 160 AB or PT. Hard to go wrong with them in a fast 7.

I've got an 8.5 twisted Rock on my 7. Shoots about anything 160 or over very well. I'd try to avoid shooting a ram where a large exit wound could be difficult to repair. The nice thing about the 8.5 7 with heavies is it does reduce the need for exact wind reads.

I like 168 hybrids. Shot a whitetail buck in his bed at 35 yards. Bullet went in right under his chin through the throat patch. Bullet exited out back of his very thick neck with about a silver dollar sized hole. Close or far, I am shooting bergers till out of them, then trying 180 scenars.

The 140s and 160s shot amazingly well in my 7mm RM and also do well in my 280AI. The 7mm RM loved Re22 and IMR7828. I'd give some of the newer more temp resistant powders a try, but not sweat it too much.

Can't go wrong with either weight in 7mm. The rifle will tell you which bullet and powder it likes.

Agree that confident, quick and accurate engagement is key to really any shots on game. That means lots of practice from every field position you can imagine. Get off the bench once you choose the load and never look back.

I'd certainly give the new 150 gr. Nosler Accubond Long Range myself. Will work on the short range shots and might give you a bit more on the longer ranges.

G1 BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT 0.611
G7 BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT 0.309

7mm 150 Grain
AccuBond Long Range Bullet
Part# 58734
Spitzer Point

I use the Sierra 160 gr Gameking hollow point in my STW as well as my 7 ultra mag. it has performed well in the wind and killed DRT on every Deer I have shot . Sierra specs say its a lot harder than most hollow points and is designed for mags. I zero for 300 yards and made a 450 yd shot in a 15 mph wind 90 degrees to my barrel by holding a foot left and a foot high. 250 lb 8 point. Hope that helps to show you drift and drop .

Almost anything from 160-180 grains should do it, or even 140s and up. I would be tempted to throat it for 180 Bergers and 160 Noslers as the Berger can be the more finicky. Just make sure it isn't too much freebore for the other bullets. I just go with what the gunsmith likes after providing a couple dummy rounds.

But lots of other choices too.

Bob's always straight to the point and spot on. I don't think I've ever had a rifle that didn't like partitions. Even the blemished/seconds that SPS sells, have performed flawlessly. The new owner of the 300 wsm I recently sold was tickled chitless when he loaded up some 180gr. blemished partitions (that I gave to him to try out) and he says the rifle shoots into .6" consistently. Back to the 7mm rem mag: I just bought a couple hundred old Hornady 175gr. sp interlocks to try out. I'm hoping my rifle likes those as it seems like they would also be a damn good bullet on critters...

Hornady's 175 grain bc looks like .462? That is something.

On the hunt of a lifetime, I'd be hard pressed to use any other bullet besides a Nosler partition. The standard by which all other hunting bullets have been judged for over 60 years. They work as designed every time.

But a Partition might drift 3" more at 500 yards!

Wow sounds like a well thought out blueprint and an amazing opportunity!

If I were building something like that I'd skip over any of the ping pong balls. Even if he is setting such reasonable limits upon himself as 450-500 it still makes sense to keep drift at an absolute minimum.

175 LRAB if he is against "using target bullets for game" as some are; otherwise a 162 gr AMax, 180 VLD or Hunting Hybrid would be my first choices. As has been pointed out, that thing ought to shoot anything and everything really well so the choice ought to be his.

I hope we can see results of the build and ESPECIALLY the hunt!

dawaba: Yes I have heard sheep are not tough to kill. My guess is all would work well.

Which might save the hunt if you read the wind wrong. :-)

If the Partitions "won't shoot", put one notch faster powder under them and try that. Usually it'll work without having to jack the pressures way up like with a slow powder.

I shot my 9 year old ram with archery tackle at about 32 yards. Wind was not a factor. If the OP is posting about building a custom fast twist 7mm for long range opportunities than it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to not use the best bullets for long range shooting. Doesn't matter to me, my ram is peacefully hanging on the wall.

Or a yeti might attack, in which case the stem to stern penetration of a Barnes will be needed.

Neither of the circumstances above is going to happen, so just load up a Partition. Or a Hornady Interlock. Or whatever. Get in shape. Shoot a sheep. Take lots of pictures.

Saw the aftermath of a 139 hornady from a 7 Rem Mag on a nice desert ram earlier this month. The ram was DRT at 178yards and the cape damage at the exit seemed minimal as we skinned it for a full body mount. I'd go with whatever was most accurate in the rifle if just for the confidence factor...

Get the tag, then worry about the rig.

First hand experience can be rare around here. Only one I saw shot with a rifle dropped with no exit from a 7mm 140 ballistic tip.

I didn't even think about that.......

I shot a Dall with a single 139 gr Hornady out of a 7mm weatherby. Sheep aren't very tough at all.
I would use a 150 gr Nosler BT and be done with it.

I can not be killed with conventional weapons!!!

Or your heart might decide to throw an irregular at you at just the wrong moment and blow it all up!

Thanks for all the comments. What do folks think of Sierra GKs in the 140gr Braket?

Or a foot more, depending on how hard the wind is blowing Most guys shouldn't be shooting if the wind is blowing that hard, but let's think of it this way- if 450-500 yards is the max distance, and we assume that our wind call could be less than perfect so we limit the acceptable wind drift to let's say 6", a slippery bullet will give us a margin of error that allows us to make the shot with zero compensation in a 7-8 mph or less full-value wind, where a less aerodynamic bullet may exceed 6" of drift with anything over 3-4 mph of wind. So a slippery bullet may allow us to shoot in stronger winds than a bullet shaped like a brick, without exceeding our allowable wind drift. Just something to consider in this whole discussion of bullet selection

As far as construction is concerned, it doesn't take much bullet to kill a sheep. After sending a few bullets through a couple of different BH sheep, I've never seen one keep a bullet inside, and we're talking bullets ranging from Sierra MK's to Barnes X bullets, and shot angles from broadside to hard quartering.

Wind-drift at 500 yards with the ballistic program on Berger's website, 10 mph full-value wind, 35 degres at 8000 feet elevation:

160-grain Nosler Partition @ 3077 fps--13.38"
180-grain Berger VLD @2821 fps--10.43"

The velocities are the maximum listed from the Nosler and Berger manuals, though that gives the 180 an edge since Berger's barrel is 26" and Nosler's 24".

This discussion of what to use on a �shot of a lifetime� inspired me to make a list of my open-country game of 400 pounds or less that night be considered shots of a lifetime, since they all required years (and often multiple hunts) to acquire. I came up with 10 animals:

Mule deer, Montana, .280 Remington, 160-grain Nosler Partition.
Mule deer, Sonora, .300 Winchester Magnum, 168 Barnes TSX
Caribou, Nunavut Territory, .30-06 w/180-grain Federal Deep-Shok
Caribou, Northwest Territory, .280 Remington,160-grain Nosler Partition
Coues deer, Sonora, 7x57, 139-grain Hornady BTSP Interlock
Pronghorn buck, Wyoming, .257 Weatherby Magnum,100-grain Barnes TSX
Pronghorn buck, Montana, .257 Roberts, 100-grain Nosler Partition
Red stag, New Zealand, .30-06, 185-grain Berger Hunting VLD
Cape kudu, South Africa, .30-06, 180-grain Nosler Partition

The last is my single wild sheep. I�ve never had much desire to take any wild sheep except a Montana bighorn, and in 35+ years of applying have never drawn a ram tag. At this point it looks like it might never happen, but did draw a ewe tag a few years ago, and used a 7x57 with a 160-grain Sierra GameKing.

Half these animals were taken between 360 and 450 yards, and while three received a second shot, all except one were killed with the first shot. Only two involved much of a �wind call,� the Wyoming pronghorn and Nunavut caribou. The pronghorn was hit correctly, but I missed the caribou on the first shot, because the stalk required a long belly-crawl to within 450 yards, and lying down on the tundra didn�t provide sufficient clues about the considerable wind speed. (They don�t call northern Canada the �barren grounds� for nothing.) The first bullet landed just in front of the bull�s chest, by an inch or two, but the second took out the top of the heart.

The only animals where bullet penetration might have been an issue were the Cape kudu and Sonora mule deer. The kudu was taken with a shot of almost 400 yards at an extreme uphill angle, the bullet hitting the shoulder about halfway up, then breaking the bottom of the spine, due to the angle, ending up under the hide on top of the far shoulder. The Sonora mule deer was running almost directly away at about 200 yards, and the bullet struck just in front of the left hip, ending up under the hide in front of the right shoulder.

Obviously I don�t use deep-penetrating bullets for all my hunting, but do tend to err more that way than high-BC when trophy hunting, having found extra penetration to make a difference more often than a little higher BC. But that�s just me.

Dunno what I�ll use if a Montana bighorn tag ever shows up in the mail.

Mule Deer, you have inspired many followers to become better hunters and "rifle loonies". Fifteen years ago I started really experimenting with various hand loads in all my rifles. I'm still yet to find the "perfect combination" but have killed most of my game with 117gr Hornady SPBT and 117gr sierras out of various .25 caliber rifles. The 7mm is one caliber I don't have much experience with, however I own several .280s, 7mm-08, 7x57. In the past I've owned a .284 and 7mm mag, but have never taken a head of game with a .7mm bullet..just lots of punching paper targets.

My friend has asked me to provide him with my top 5 bullets of choice, so far On the list:
139gr Hornady BTSP
180gr VLD Hybrid
160gr Partition

What are your top five? Also my friend has quite a selection of guns to choose from...would you steer towards another caliber like the .300WSM or 6.5-06, 25-06. Everybody please chime in!

When I draw a Breaks bull tag next year thinking 180 Partition/300 WSM.

I'd run the rifle I was most confident in and had practiced with the most, not a brand new one, and I'd use the load I had the most time and experience with in that rifle.

Thanks for the kind words!

Dunno if I can come up with a list of five bullets, but do have some comments on the ones you list, and an additional bullet to suggest.

I dunno where your friend is hunting, but bighorns can be bigger-bodied than any other North American sheep (unless, of course, they're desert bighorns). The heaviest on record here in Montana went 302, and I am sure there have been quite a few others at least that big. This doesn't require vast penetration, but the size is similar to a big mule deer, and with an angling shot a possibility I'd prefer a little stouter bullet than the Hornady 139 BTSP. I've used that bullet a lot and while it normally works great, I've also seen an occasional Hornady BTSP come apart, especially when pushed fast.

One consideration you listed is cape damage, one area where the Berger VLD might not be the best choice. They can exit on game that size, and when they do the hole is typically pretty large.

In my experience Partitions typically leave fairly small exit holes, because the front core blows off and essentially leaves a wadcutter with a little fringe of peeled-back jacket. I just ran the numbers for a 150 Partition at 3200 fps (easily possible in the 7mm RM) and wind drift at 500 is even a little less than with the 160.

In addition, in my experience the 150 Partition is often easier to get to shoot really accurately than either the 140 or 160 Partitions. The late Chub Eastman suggested that to me years ago, when I was having difficulty getting 140's or 160's to shoot in a very accurate custom .280, and it sure worked in my rifle. Have seen the same thing several times since in cartridges from the 7mm-08 and 7x57 to various 7 mags.

I'd say that 3077fps for a 160 PT is approaching the upper pressure limit, as where 2821fps with the 180 VLD, especially considering the minimal bearing surface of the VLD, is further from the red line. We need to compare the bullets loaded to like pressures. I'm thinking 160 PT versus 168 JLK would be a good illustration.

Addenum- there's not a mountain of difference between the 2 bullets, but small advantages are still advantages, whether in penetration or wind drift.

I think I just heard the angels singing........

How about the 162 AMax for all the inherent advantages? It seems like it would be about perfect for sheeps.

Quite surprised: the 280 got that much use on "important" hunts, and the 270 got kicked to the curb???

Unless it blows up on a shoulder and the sheep runs off into a hellhole to die.

162 Amaxs are too darned unpredictable. Why use them when there are so many better bullets out there?

In case anyone asks, I saw the results of a 162 Amax which came apart on a mule deer shoulder (fired from a 280). Some goodies made it into the nearside lung, and killed the deer eventually. It's still what I call a bullet failure.

Hi Jordan,

I'm curious as to what ranges and what cartridge/bullets you've used on game past 400 yds and what you observed. Thanks.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that'll spend 50K on a 4x4 truck, tens of thousands on hunts, clothing, boots, guns, scopes, etc. to support their hunting hobby then use a cheap ass bullet to save 50 cents when that bullet's the one thing determines whether that hunt is a success or failure.

path,

You'll have to be more specific. Ranges, animals, and cartridges/bullets vary. It doesn't make much sense for me to type and post a big list. What observations are you getting at here?

I'd say the bullet is about the least important "thing" that determines success.

Me, I'd go with a 160 Partition, 160 Accubond, 160 Speer Hot Core, 150 Ballistic Tip, 160 Sierra Game King, 154 Hdy, in that order.

I'd pick the one that shot best and rock on.

Though a sheep nut friend of mine uses a 139 Hdy from his 280 on Dall's year in and year out with boringly predictable results.

DakotaDeer,

That particular .280 was one of my very first custom rifles and my first real lightweight, built by the late Dave Gentry. The only reason it was a .280 instead of a .270 is Dave hated the .270 (don't ask me why) and talked me into the .280. That was back when I started selling a few gun articles, and I thought it might be a good idea to try something different so agreed.

Eventually I found the Ultra Light Arms rifles (now New Ultra Light Arms) by Melvin Forbes balanced better than the Gentry rifle, while weighing even less, so sold the .280. The rifle that replaced it was a NULA Model 24 .30-06, the rifle that took one of the caribou and the red stag on the list. (It has also taken a couple of very good mule deer, though not as big as the two listed, my two biggest.)

When Dave built the .280, I'd taken more big game with the .270 Winchester than any other cartridge, and Eileen continued to use the .270 for the majority of her hunting until about 10 years ago. I feel it's a gun writer's obligation to try a wide variety of stuff, and didn't feel any vast need to use the .270 anymore, since with a bunch of big game from pronghorn to moose taken by both me and Eileen I knew what it would do.

However, I've now experimented enough with various cartridges, bullets and rifles to just start using what I've found to work well for my purposes. Bought another .270 last year, when I "won" a fund-raising auction at the Jack O'Connor Heritage Center in Idaho, for one of the Model 70 Featherweight Commemoratives with fancy wood, engraving, etc. It turned out to be very accurate, and I used it to take a mule deer buck this fall. It worked!

Thanks for the update. Also noticed that there was a lot of 7mm caliber usage on your list.

Sounds like your ULA would be about the last one to give up on.

Yeah, I've used the NULA .30-06 and my Serengeti 7x57 on more big game over the past dozen years than any of my other rifles. But the NULA will continue to get more work, as this year I really started to feel the effects of becoming, uh, "middle-aged." I'm liking lighter-weight everything in my hunting gear these days!

It's the only connection you've got to the animal until it's dead. You can do everything else right, dance spinning on your head and saying voodoo incantations, but if the bullet doesn't perform then you go home empty handed, so yea, it is the one thing that determines whether you succeed or not.

Maybe four that stand out. I'm more curious where you found BC to be really important. My "long range" shots on game are limited to three or four (so I'm looking to learn) but in all cases I found BC to be relatively unimportant. Case in point the longest was with a 270 Win at just over 560 yds with a 130 TSX. Not exactly a slippery bullet.

I just published an article about all this. If you're not going to be shooting much beyond 500 yards, BC is such a minor factor it can be pretty much disregarded, given spitzer bullets. Many of the "low-BC," lighter bullets not favored by long-range hunters will drift as little in the wind as heavier, slower higher-BC favored for shooting beyond 500. The difference is even smaller, of course, at 200-400 yards.

But because of long-range hunting, many hunters have become absolutely fixated on high BC, even when it doesn't make any practical difference in wind drift at the ranges they shoot.

The OP states the guy building the 7mm RM is going to be shooting to a maximum of 450-500 yards. At those ranges 9and less) I'd rather have a bullet that expands and penetrates consistently when it hits stuff than a specialized long-range bullet that MIGHT result slightly less wind-drift, but may or may not perform correctly when it hits game.

The only more dependable than a Nosler Partition is a bigger faster Nosler Partition.

As far as "the ONE thing" that determines success or failure, I still maintain it's likely the least important of many dozens of "things." Your physical shape isn't a thing per se, but that would be at the top of the list followed by every sort of gear imaginable starting with boots, clothing, and optics, down to an ice axe/walking staff, rifle and ibuprofin.

Any old bullet will kill a sheep. Hell, I've seen barbed wire kill a ram.

Putting that "any old bullet" in the right spot is the ticket...

Yep. Go with the rifle you trust the most already, and put the time, effort, and expense into getting fit. That will pay dividends on the sheep hunt and far beyond.

The Campfire Crowd is obsessed with bullets. I get it. We're all rifle and rifle associated minutia nuts or we'd likely not be here. But it can go too far, like obsessing over a bullet to kill a 150lb Whitetail. Reference all the TSX's downing fragile whitetails. Group Think for sure

But we only have ourselves to please, and this is all fun and games anyway.

It isnt all because of LR hunting, in my case anyway.

Its because I shoot Bergers/Scenars/Amaxs far more than any other bullet.So I have those bullets so wrung/doped out its often what I use for hunting anymore,just because of familiarity.Also found they kill pretty damn efficiently too.

I often forget when making an endorsement that guys aint shooting thousands of rounds a year beyond 500 yards and have no need for such bullets.

If I could take back my earlier recommendation I'd say shoot 145LRX's, the velocity of the 7RM combined with the fast twist would make it a killer trio.

And the reason I suggested another Partition is I've never seen them fail in any way, as I have other expanding bullets of almost every sort. Plus, they do very little damage to a cape, which was one of the criteria mentioned by the OP.

Apparently a high BC number makes all bullets perform better at any range.

Shod

Good post Brad. Throw in honing your marksmanship and on game performance in any position and you just about got it covered. An extremely high BC bullet doesn't guarantee any Joe smuck to put a pill in the vitals of a big game animal at 600 yards. A very seasoned rifleman using old nosler partitions and a familiar rifle will do more good than an unpracticed Joe with a high BC bullet. Just sayin...

My friend is already in excellent physical condition. He is adapted to high altitude, and is ready for the task. I'm with you, bullets aren't everything, but can definitely make things interesting if not taking a good hunting bullet into consideration.

Were I spending the kind of money it takes for a sheep hunt, any sheep hunt, I'd certainly not skimp on the bullet. However, I wouldn't go out of my way to use an expensive bullet that doesn't shoot well either!

If you look at my bullet list, the Partition is at the top, Accubond 2nd, Speer Hotcore 3rd.

The Hotcore is the Poor Man's Partition. Great bullet, though they don't always shoot.

At the end of the day, I bet a guy could spend one lifetime shooting sheep with a Ballistic Tip, and another lifetime shooting Partitions, and never see any difference in either lifetime

Yeah, especially the 7mm 150 Ballistic Tip, and I wouldn't limit that to just deer-sized game either.

This years bull fell to exactly that bullet from my 7-08... one shot in the ribs that angled through 32" of elk and was under the scapula on the offside... I think 7 year old bull elk are bigger than any sheep

Nice bull!

Yeah, I've seen performance like that with several of the heavier-jacketed BT's. One reason I suggested the 150 Partition, however, is that I've also seen BT's leave bigger exit holes than Partitions.

And yeah, I still think other gear is more important than a bullet

John, thanks and agreed on the NBT. I really like Partitions, but my first love with Nosler has always been the Ballisitc Tip. I used them for a decade before I ever shot a Partition, and they've only gotten better!

One shot did the bull in. He ran 50 yards and was stone dead when I got to him within a minute of shooting him.

This won't give those joy that like text-book mushrooms, but is perfectly good performance, and exactly what I expected:

Brad, some might consider the jacket core separation a failure, but it worked and you have elk in the freezer. I've seen the same thing with my favorite 250gr sierra gameking launched from my 338's. It puts elk down right now, the core exits and the jackets are found in the offside hide. If I were the OP, I'd let my rifle decide which hunting bullet it likes and practice shots out to (and past) expected/forseen distances. Also practice quick follow up shots. Heaven forbid, you need another shot. Just good practice to rack another one in and be ready. To me, "shot of a lifetime" means you better damn well be prepared to make that shot.

If it meant I would draw a tag, I'd take this:



Shooting these:



Just gimme a damn tag

Should make a darn good all around bullet in that 7-08. Nice bull.

For some people in the ever increasing field of LR "hunting", higher BC's, wind meters, G7 rangefinders, schitthangingoffthereticles, and 3lb riflescopes makes the johnson grow larger as well.

Makes me wonder how we get coyotes killed with bullets that have B.C's under .300 at ranges of around 400-450 yards and scopes set around 6x.

I've shot more game with Ballistic Tips than anything else. But, I have seen a couple of times when they made me second guess my choice. One of them the 150 7mm (new generation) on a little whitetail. The results were dramatic but I don't think any part of that bullet made it more than 8" into that deer.

I'm talking myself into Partitions more and more all the time. :-)

A few instances come to mind, but before I go into detail it's important to point out that any shot taken on game should come only after we've practiced so exhaustively that we will make our shot 9-10 times out of 10, regardless of the cartridge/bullet combo we're using. Having said that, high-BC/velocity combos take less work, practice, and skill to use effectively with, say, a 90% confidence interval. With a bullet that is blown off of the vital zone by a 3 mph wind change, let's just say it takes 2000 rounds of practice shooting in variable winds to be able to call the correction with 90% certainty to within 3 mph. With a higher BC bullet and more speed, maybe it takes a 6 mph wind change to have the same effect. So maybe you can learn to call wind within 6 mph with only 600 rounds of practice at the distance in question.

Having said that, I shot a sheep in the mountains where wind is very difficult to detect as it blows between outcroppings. The shot was at 415 yards and I was using a .25-06 at 100gr MK. I was able to successfully call the wind well enough that 2 shots hit right behind the shoulder. I also shot a coyote at 942 yards using the same bullet, and both of those shots were the result of sending lots and lots of 100 MK downrange, and relatively little wind. If there had been much wind for either of those shots, I would have wished I had a more aerodynamic bullet.

Recently a friend and I were hunting elk in terrain that is also difficult to judge wind in, due to minimal vegetation, and topographical features are the primary source of wind indication. A couple of shots were made with a 7WSM and 162AM that could have turned out badly if I were using something less wind-impervious. The first was at 532 meters and was taken on a cow that was quartering away steeply. The bullet went were I wanted it to go. A minute later my friend fired a 208 AM at another cow in the herd, and a gust of wind came up right at the shot. The bullet entered the liver. As we approached the elk to finish it, she detected us from over 750 meters, then got up and started to run away. A 162 AM hit her in the rear quarters, exiting behind the offside shoulder. There was a significant amount of wind and combined with the lead required to hit her on the run, I was glad to be using the 162 instead of a bullet that may have been blown 6" off course by the wind. Likewise, if a gust of wind had kicked up during the shot on the first cow, the bullet may still have stayed on course, when a lesser bullet may have resulted in a wounding shot.

There have been several others using other chamberings and bullets, and in each case I had to consider the distance of the shot, the shot presentation of the animal, the wind behaviour, as well as the bullet I was shooting and the amount of practice I had done previously with that bullet. If the wind was too much for a given bullet, I had to call it a no shot as where I may have taken the shot with a more resilient bullet. The only way to see how badly a bullet is affected by the wind is to do a lot of shooting at targets in various winds. I can tell you that I would be confident shooting in worse winds using that 7WSM/162AM combo than I would a .308/150SP combo.

I'm not advocating that BC is THE only factor to consider in bullet selection, as I am also a big TTSX user, but when we're talking about shots in the wind beyond 400 yards, BC starts to give a marked advantage. That is easy to see if you take a few chamberings/bullets out on a windy day and compare them on steel side-by-side.

More pictures please.

This is a pretty good thread, fairly informative, and more pics would be great....grin

Jordan Smith....what do you consider "windy'?

Sam;
Good evening to you sir, hopefully this finds you folks all well and as ready for Christmas as you'd hoped to be.

So with the understanding that most of my interaction with sheep is the local California Bighorn variety, I'd say this about that.....

If one is hunting say mid October or later, then it's a completely different animal once the rut kicks in. They'll stand for photos like this all day long.

Ancient scan from the olden times - maybe '85

Sometimes though earlier in the year one can bump them on some bedding rocks and they'll sit long enough for a photo. One can readily see they know EXACTLY where I was taking said photo from though.


Again later in fall, they'll become silly enough that the local mulies will stop to watch them strut their stuff.


Back when we had a general open season however, if one wanted to tag a legal 3/4 curl ram, one would spend a lot of time cruising the old growth Doug Fir and Ponderosa stands on the edges of the ugliest, steepest rocks one could locate.

I had all of a 5 count to ascertain this guy had the required amount of horn before he and another ram began to vacate the general vicinity. It was about 80yds give or take and as he tensed up to run, he looked ahead, showed me how long the curl was and received a 180gr Hornady out of a battered BBR '06 I used back then. My goodness that's a youngster in that photo isn't it?



It was not in any way, shape or form the "classic" sheep hunt where a fellow makes an eyeball sore from looking through the spotter counting the annular rings.

Anyway, again I'd say that if the OP's buddy is hunting an area where the rams get pressured from predators much at all AND the season is earlier in fall then a fast handling rifle will be the primary concern and other items very much incidental afterward.

In looking at Brad's elk photos, I get the impression his elk hunting spots wouldn't be too, too different from where we'd chase rams.

As always Sam, there's many ways to get to a destination and that's only been our experience here with the locals.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Sam.

Dwayne

Dwayne, those are awesome pics my man! Thanks!

Oh yeah, great pics and commentary Dwayne!



Merry Christmas to your family as well.

Dwayne,

You bring up some good points.

Apparently where the guy will be hunting is a VERY limited draw area--which is what we have here in Montana, except for a few unlimited areas. I am pretty familiar with some of our areas and their sheep, due to having scouted many over the years, while hoping to draw a tag, plus hunting one area myself for a ewe, and going along with other people on various hunts.

In general, the sheep in the draw areas are pretty damn tame, because they rarely get hunted. A friend and I used to canoe the Missouri River through the Breaks the first week of the rifle season for mule deer (which is several weeks into the bighorn season), and often ran into sheep. Somewhere I still have a photo of my friend aiming (but not shooting) at a BIG ram standing 60-75 yards away, looking at us as if he was inspecting a likely ewe.

I also accompanied the same friend on a late-season ewe hunt (his tag) in the Rock Creek area, then famous for big rams. We found "his" ewe running around on a steep and snowy mountainside about 2000 feet above us, being chased by more than one ram. We climbed up there and my buddy shot the ewe at maybe 100 yards, and as we field-dressed it a HUGE ram stood on a rock outcropping 30 yards above us, looking down as curiously as the Breaks ram. As we dragged the ewe back down the mountain, we ran across at number of big, mature rams at easy rifle range.

When I drew my ewe tag a few years ago for a local herd near the town we live in, shortly after the season opened in mid-September I found a ewe/lamb herd at the base of some cliffs. On the hike up to the cliffs I passed within less than 300 yards of a herd of six mature rams, bedded down on an open slope. They never even stood up as I passed by.

Could relate a bunch of other stories, but in general the difficulty in getting a ram in our draw areas doesn't involve getting within easy range. Instead it involves finding THE ram (some are so well-known they acquire nicknames until some lucky tag-holder kills them). Sometimes this requires considerable hiking, but sometimes it just involves glassing from roads during the rut.

The unlimited areas are an entirely different story.

John;
Thanks for the clarification sir, it makes all the difference having that information for sure.

When folks see the Bighorns in our national parks and watch the herds in the wintering areas they sometimes get the mistaken idea all sheep are like that year round.

A good friend in Whitehorse chases sheep up there in the alpine and again that's a different set of rules and tactics.

Thanks again for taking the time to supply the very interesting details John, as usual I've learned something from you.

All the best to you and Eileen this Christmas.

Dwayne

Whenever there's wind

IME anything over about 5-6 mph can start to show the difference between slippery and less slippery bullets over 400 yards.

Some redneck several years ago said something like "load partitions, shut up and go hunting". Wouldn't know about that myself.
Charlie

How about 15-25mph and gusty then? I'm not even a great shot and I can crack rocks and gongs out to 900 with a 7RM and 160 AB's under 10mph.

I'm all about taking every advantage I can, personally. I've seen enough critters die with VLD type bullets to know they work very well on game and do better in wind than less sleek bullets.... And that's all I need to know.

Tanner

I agree Charlie.

With bullet selection, as in most things in life, moderation is often the best policy.

Not too quick opening, which occasionally fails to penetrate. Not too deep penetrating, with may fail to open. Sleek enough to reach out just fine to distances further than any hunter has any business shooting at unwounded game. A nice balance. In other words, a Partition.

What I find starkly contrasting today is that we used to judge game bullets by how they performed after the hit animals...today bullet construction is largely ignored and the focus is on how they perform flying through the air,which I can understand for very LR work.

This gives some good information but makes me wonder how I killed anything using Partitions the last 40+ years....Mmmm.

In any event the LR bullets have a very long way to go before they can begin to approach the world wide reputation for trophy game killing of the Partition....I bet they never catch up.

Great stuff BC30cal. Thanks for making the efforts to post pictures. Reminds me of once, not on a hunt, on the edge of a fault block mountain, having a California ram, then on the next break a mule deer buck and off in the background an antelope buck in the binocular view at once. Was much younger then too. In SE Oregon, I've seen sheep spook at what seemed a mile and other times mill around and watch me at 100 yards. I think when they're headed for water they're less likely to flee for the next mountain, or at least more willing to wait a bit and see what you're up to. I don't think the full-curl rams are nearly as cooperative as the little guys where hunted annually. And they'll be wayyy out away from the cliffs too. Mostly been around them in the spring and summer. Not always a long range gig is evidenced by ancient rock blinds, but those folks had less distractions from hunting, liberal seasons, and simpler choices, obsidian tipped arrow vs lance, atalatl or not, lol.

Maybe a LRAB would be a good all-around option, not a brick yet a bonafide hunting bullet?

I'm sorry, but some of this stuff is pretty hard to swallow.

That's a first for you.

Hi Dwayne, Merry Christmas my friend.

That bull was shot fairly high up in the mountains in a tiny meadow surrounded by dense fir, so it would be quite different from the country in your pics.

Love your post and photos. We see the same thing here depending on the month. Like John, I'm still waiting to draw a tag!

Here's a couple rams I snapped a picture of within 50 feet... post breeding, in the hungry time of year:



Part of a group of 30 or so in the summer highcountry:



Walking up on a group in September:





Here's a ram I found... it had been run by wolves into a barbwire fence, and torn itself open. It lived less than 24hrs. I called FWP and they came in on snowmachine and hauled the body out for autopsy. Montana takes its sheep pretty seriously!

Brad;
It's nice to see you posting again sir, hopefully you and yours are doing acceptably well this last Sunday before Christmas.

Thanks for sharing your very crisp photos too, I very much enjoyed them.

For sure the photos I put up were not where we hunted rams back in the '90's though. In going through what I've got on photobucket, this is much closer to what we'd have been in.


We'd see ewes and banana rams in the open side hills adjacent to the thicker old growth sometimes - like this sort of country.


But once they'd made it through a hunting season or two in a bachelor herd they'd be hanging out more on the side with the power line cut up until the rut would pull them back into view.

Anyway thanks again for the photos, congratulations on that buster bull elk and Merry Christmas to you folks Brad.

Dwayne

Brad the first pic is a real classic. Congrats on another dandy bull and thanks for sharing the pics.

Dwayne thanks for sharing your pics too. Very nice.

Royce
I'm in agreement !!!!
Charlie

In his GAP .260 vs .308 thread, Pat's results illustrate what I'm describing. He made a 1 Mil wind call with both rifles, and the .260 gave him a bit more margin of error. The .308 was blown off course, and needed another 0.2 Mil to hit POA. He was shooting at 570 meters, which is farther than we're talking about in this thread, but he was also shooting in only a 10 mph wind. Results would likely be similar if it were 200 yards closer and 5 mph more wind.Here's his post:

Jordan,

That's very illustrative of the differences in two bullets in different cartridges.

But it's also not what we're talking about, because there isn't NEARLY that much difference in wind drift between a 160 Partition and, say, a 168 JLK (which in an earlier post you suggested would be a fairer comparison than a 180 Berger) in the 7mm Remington Magnum.

I ran the number for the two bullets you suggest through Berger's ballistic program, using actual BC data from Bryan Litz's latest book, BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE OF RIFLE BULLETS, an almost 500-page book of the results of his actual range tests of the BC's of various bullets. One of the interesting things about Bryan's tests is how often the listed BC's of various LR bullets are higher than reality, partly because many companies (especially smaller companies) only list a best-case scenario. Well, it turns out the 168 JLK is one of those bullets, and it actually drifts only about 2" less in a 10-mph sidewind at 500 yards than a 160 Partition.

So no, somebody using the same wind hold with both bullets wouldn't hit a wolf in the butt with one and in the chest with the other. Plus, I would hope that anybody who's preparing for a possible 500-yard shot on a bighorn ram will have been practicing with the bullet and load they'll be using, so can make a decent wind hold with that load.

As I stated earlier in this thread, BC doesn't make nearly as much difference as many people think at ranges out to 500 yards, given spitzer bullets. I didn't get this information just from running the numbers through ballistic programs, but because astonishingly enough, I do a lot of longer-range shooting throughout the year. This is partly because i have to test a lot of rifles and loads, but also because I can shoot at anywhere up to mile on some public land only 10 minutes from my house. I don't often shoot at a mile, but often do at 600-1000.

So many shooters are fixated on high BC these days they often forget there are two bullets factors in wind drift, BC and velocity. A couple of local friends who decided to start playing with longer-range shooting were out practicing at 500 yards this summer, up in the local mountains. One was shooting his new .300 magnum with 200-grain AccuBonds at 2900 fps, and the other the .270 Weatherby Magnum he's used to kill a pile of pronghorn, mule deer and elk over the past decade, with 130-grain Partitions at 3500 fps.

After the reading they'd recently done, they assumed the .300 magnum's bullets would drift far less than the .270 Weatherby's. Instead, they were astonished to find that in the same conditions, there wasn't any practical difference, since for practical purposes the bullets all drifted about the same amount, close enough together for killing big game at 500 yards.

Neither one of them had ever used a ballistic program, so I showed them one on the Internet, which showed them the results they got weren't an anomaly, since there was only about 2 inches difference in wind drift.

Now, if either one of them wants to shoot beyond 500 yards, the .300 would definitely have an advantage. But they don't, partly because they saw how many weird things wind does to bullets at 500 yards.

John, Jordan,

I have an example that shows the difference in drift well, but due to vastly different BC (from a 7-08 not a 7RM).

*** With 10 mph full value wind, 1700' elevation, 7mm-08 ***

--- 24" drift with 120gr TTSX, 0.373 G1, 3000 fps ---

--- 16" drift with 162gr AMAX, 0.600 G1, 2600 fps ---

While the 162 AMAX was offline, I was shooting the 120 NBT and 120 TTSX. Once the 162 became available again I started shooting them at 2600 fps.

In a 7RM, I doubt anyone would choose two bullets with such vastly different BC so this is sort of a cherry-picked example. Figure most bullets used in the 7RM are going to be 0.450 G1 or better. These will still do well out to 500y even compared to slicker bullets.

But, its a real example for me with the little 7-08 where the higher BC does come into play. I haven't shot the 162 nearly as much as the 120, but so far I've noticed a higher rate of hits with the 162 at 500y than I ever did with the 120. My 500y target is an 8" hub coupler. Even with 5 mph wind, that is still 4" more drift with the 120 vs the 162. Or 1/2 the size of the target.

I haven't killed any critters with the 162, but per some sources when the 162 is started at 2600-2700 fps it rarely blows up. And still opens nicely at longer distances while giving good penetration at closer ranges. Hope to see this first-hand.

As I get older I am more interested in getting the least drift with the lowest recoil so I can shoot more. Practicing with magnums at 500y doesn't sounds like much fun to me anymore and I used to shoot the 200 NAB at 2900 fps out of a few 300 Mags. That sucked from prone.

Jason

I have no experience with them, but know others shoot the 140gr NAB from the 7-08 at ~2800fps. This drifts ~19" at 500y... only ~3" more than the 162 in the example above. The 140 NAB has a 0.485 G1.

So given two "comparable" spitzers without a huge disparity in BC, they will perform similarly in terms of wind drift given mild/moderate wind values. As wind increases the higher BC bullet advantages will be even more apparent and could make a difference in shot placement but I don't think anyone is advocating shooting game under such conditions.

Its still worth exploring the options though. I know the 120gr is a favorite on the 'Fire for the little 7-08, but a higher BC bullet might be worth a look.

7RM and 160gr NAB would seem like a good option for those who like the NPT. The NAB would offer slightly better BC with comparable terminal ballistics, or so I've heard.

I would hope not.

Only time I hear of Hail Mary shots in the wind are during antelope hunts. From guys who think longrange is unethical

Never gone antelope hunting myself. I'd be spooked by that level of wind.

It can be pretty fierce at times. On the other hand, it's often more consistent than in the mountains. An experienced prairie dog shooter won't have much trouble with "average" winds.

Have also seen it dead calm, plenty of times, when pronghorn hunting, especially early and late in the day when pronghorns themselves tend to be calmer.

I love those times in the morning and evening when the sun is low and the wind is absent.

You reminded me of the last time I drove I-90 thru North Dakota and Minnesota. Wind was really strong and required a lot of correction with the steering wheel. But it was constant... for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles It seemed like we drove for hours with the wheel cranked over hard to the same spot.

That hot wind was so bad my dog didn't want to get out of the air conditioning at rest stops!

Seen the same thing riding motorcyles in OR where there are antelope. Bike cranked over hard for extended periods of time. Until the slipstream from an oncoming rig draws you off course, then spits you out into the wind again.

John how would the LR Accubond's fair against Partitions in the examples you cited above. They are supposed to high significantly higher BC's and then the standard Accubond and those are no slouch.

Given the difficulty I have seen of most people trying to hit things past 300 yards, I wonder how many people there are that are capable of making consistent first shot hits in the vitals, past 400 yards when there is a wind significant enough so that a hold off the vitals of a deer sized animal is necessary.
There are a handful of people on here that I would bet can do it, but a dam small handful.

That makes two of us. The more the wind blows, swirls, gusts, and varies, the smaller that handful becomes, even if your name is David Tubb. The idiots on the LR hunting TV shows don't help things much.

Roy,

Here are the drift numbers I got with the Berger program at 35 degrees F., 8000' above sea level, 500 yards, with a 10-mph wind at right angles to the bore:

160 Partition, 3100 fps: 13.24"
160 AccuBond, 3100 fps: 11.68"
150 ABLR, 3200 fps: 9.59"
168 ABLR, 3000 fps: 9.71"

Just for fun, I also ran these:
175 Partition, 2900 fps: 13.11"
175 ABLR, 2900 fps: 9.83"

Now, we can obviously quibble about muzzle velocities, and rifling twist can also affect BC somewhat.

The guys that can do it, shoot in it and know how....they also intentionally practice in it.

FWIW, 3" more drift can be the difference of putting a bullet in the paunch, instead of the heart/lung cavity....

I've been in on at least 25 wild rams being taken. They are by far least tenacious out of all other big game I've shot, or seen shot. Making a good shot in the correct place is 99% of the battle. Use a bullet that shoots well in your rifle, get out and shoot it as much as possible in all kinds of weather conditions, from field positions, until you know your abilities, then go get your ram.

I again must add that one of the criteria in the OP was "cape damage." I have seen a lot of animals killed with just about all the bullets mentioned so far on this thread, and of them the Barnes TSX and Nosler Partition normally leave the smallest hole on exit, and between those the Partition's is usually smaller, usually about caliber-size.

The bullets that do the most damage are the "target" style bullets, with fist-sized holes common, especially on closer-range shots. AccuBonds are somewhere in between, because their mushroom is typically wider than that of Partitions.

Well, I've about as many pref pts for BH sheep in SD as others have mentioned on this thread and if I ever draw the tag, I still want to hunt the sheep not snipe at him past 400 yds. I'll use the same M700 ADL I've had since 1970 chambered for 7 mm Remington Magnum and a load that has never let me down the 139 gr Hornady BTSP with IMR 4831 in WW brass with Fed 215's sparking it. Probably use some of the same batch of rejects (or factory seconds) that I used on my Rocky Mtn Goat billy at 17 yds. Put the bullets where they belong first then argue technical merits of your bullet choice. Say I suppose the fact that I only paid $6 a hundred would really count the likelihood that they do work Huh? Magnum Man

Think I low how to cut wind drift in half on a 600 yard ram(or anything else).

Get 300 yards closer...

Just saw a 180 scenar from a 7mm go through a nice sized cow elk at 525 yards yesterday. Went in behind the shoulder, screwed up a bunch of stuff and exited with a relatively small hole behind the shoulder.

Doesn't seem like a bad idea to use high bc bullets that work well, but our rigs are built for shooting longer and heavy bullets. In the shot situation yesterday there was a lot of open ground that didn't make sneaking closer an option. No worries, elk steaks in the freezer. And I am sure a lot of other bullets would have been just fine.

Yep...

Bob,

Actually, in the same wind condition, drift will be about 1/4 as much at 300 as at 600.

30338,

Scenars are tougher than some other high-BC bullets, but would you expect the exit hole to be the same "relatively small" size at, say, 175 yards? On an animal half that size?

When I mentioned fist-sized exit holes with high-BC bullets on deer-sized animals, it's because I've seen them on a number of occasions.

Exactly!

I just shot a whitetail deer in the throat patch at 35 yards with a 168 berger going over 3000 at the muzzle. It went in, shattered the neck and left a half dollar sized exit in the back of the neck. Saw a buddy shoot an antelope with a 180 partition and it left a volleyball sized exit in front of the shoulder and ruined the cape. Guess nothing is for sure.

That said I will keep rolling 168 bergers and when they are shot up, will probably switch to 180 scenars. Like I said earlier, lot of bullets will work.

Yes....I've seen it. and not just a few times. I've also seen some big ugly holes from Partitions when large bones are struck.

You're right, nothing is for sure when shooting big game. And a bullet that hits bones adds shattered bone to the damage equation.

But I have sure seen far more Partitions leave small exit holes than Bergers VLD's, and I have seen quite a few animals taken with each. In fact the last animal I shot with a Berger VLD was a pronghorn at about 160 yards with a 140 from a 6.5-06, and on a broadside rib shot it left one of those fist-sized holes.

Wish it was always that easy.

Ok folks, what bullet should he use? (-:

Roger that.

SLM: I know what you mean.

My comment was more TIC; meant to solicit a response. I admit, I was trolling a bit.

I have been in that "try to move in or shoot from here" scenario a time or two.

Put me in this camp.

When you shoot a Mashburn, when you close the door you are in range, right Bob?

The 160 partition

OK, next thread

Shod

30338: Well...I guess the Mashburn has some legs. But I have not been in that situation with it yet....hope I live long enough

But was with a 300 Win Mag a couple of times. (No, I was nowhere near the truck,or the horses). And it were bulls, the kind I went for.

Once, i shot from where I was (good decision),and another, I decided to cross the canyon,which was almost a good idea but did not work,and he got away.

But I was younger, more impetuous,and there were no LRF's or NF scopes, back then. Today, my game plan might be different.

I've had screwy bullet performance with a few brands/bullets, but never with the partition.

If I had that tag in my pocket, you'd be likely to find 160gr Partitions in magazine.

In support of everybody's comments, I am planning to go hunt next weekend with a close friend here in Texas. I've loaded up my .270WBy with 150gr partitions, 140gr accubonds,140gr Hornady SPBT, and 140gr TTSX. Will put these bullets to the test, and report back if successful. My friend is not in support of using a "target" bullet to hunt with, he much prefers a hunting bullet intended for the use of killing game. I tend to also lean more towards hunting bullets, but as of recently the Berger 130gr VLDs are shooting SOBs out of my 6.5 creedmoor. All of your comments are being considered, and are much appreciated.

I shot a Mule deer last season with a 168 VLD at 200 yards, and the exit was about a half-dollar sized as well.

In the last 2 years I've seen 6 critters killed with Scenars or VLDs (not a huge number, I know) and they have all died very quickly when shot in the right place.

"Shut up, load a Scenar or VLD, and go hunting"... How's that work again? grin...

Tanner

Tanner,

Yep, Bergers kill 'em quick! I don't have as much experience with Scenars, but plan to change that.

As several people have said already on this thread, find a bullet your rifle likes and go kill a ram....

The Scenars certainly impressed me, and those 180s are absolutely wicked flyers. I saw the 155s and 180s penetrate a lot of meat and bone this season in particular between Dalls, mulies, and elk.

It should only be about another 15 years before I draw a Bighorn tag here in Colorado, so those Unlimited Units are sounding fairly enticing right about now....

Tanner

And like people have said, practice shooting in hunting type conditions and positions!

Missing a 10 or 12" plate at 500 yards(in breeze or however) tells a guy all he needs to know about his ability or lack thereof.

John,

A lot of that jives with what I've said in this thread. I even mentioned that the difference in wind drift between the 160 PT and 168 JLK in a 10 mph crosswind isn't huge, but there is an advantage there. I also said that a guy needs to practice and be proficient at shooting under given atmospheric conditions on targets before trying on game, regardless of chambering/bullet chosen. The one thing I would point out, is you reference a 10 mph wind. Well the difference between the PT and the 168 VLD (using Litz numbers) at 480 meters, using atmospherics where I shoot, is more like 7" of drift in a 15 mph wind, and 10" in a 20 mph wind. So you'd either have to limit the wind conditions that you'd shoot in more with the 160 PT, or else practice a lot more to be able to accurately call the wind drift.

Sheep are not hard to kill.

You call a breeze something that's close to a hurricane..

Do the Skinners work the same as VLDs- go in a little ways then come apart?

I'll have to check my bullet inventory, but do know there's a BUNCH of 139 6.5 Scenars. Have used them a little in a custom 6.5x55 with a 1-8 Lilja (where they shoot really well) but need to try them in the 26 Nosler.

If I were your age I'd sure be looking at the unlimited areas. A lot can happen in 15 years....

Dude, perfect example is when you had your 6.5 SAUM and I was shooting a 257 Roberts. It was pretty 'breezy' that day and your setup(I forget what bullet?) worked way better(easier) than the 117 Gameking.

160gr accubond 150 ABLR 168 ABLR

Okay, 175 ABLR and if it shoots, call it a day.

No, they penetrate more...Jackets are harder.

Less words more pictures...

Possibly the best advice on this thread.

Unlimited? Like OTC tags?

Toughest hunt on the continent.

Anyone can go. Guaranteed permit, deadline is May 1st.

Seasons are set on a ram quota. seasons can close on 48 hour notice.

Unlimited ram taken in 2006. I spent 9 days before the season opened in there, and found 8 rams.

Envious here.

tempting to give up other hunts for a few years and give that an honest effort.

Pat,

Many grizzle bears roaming the timber?

Jason

Montana is so weird. (Read - I am jealous!)


Might have to quit the job and try it out.... But that, "toughest hunt on the continent," given the source is, uh what's the word, daunting?

'zackly !!

I find this thread somewhat interesting and it kind of got me to thinking.

I don't mind useing bullets of about any sort but this tends to be some of the criteria I go by.

If I know my shots are going to be under 250 yds I don't mind the Barnes.

If my shots are between up really close out to 500 yds I prefer a partition.

If I figure my average shooting will be 300 to 600 I like the accubond or Ballistic Tip.

If I figure I'm shooting at 500- 1000 then its a thin jacket High BC of whatever shoots the best.

One thing I refuse to do however is use a thin jacket bullet up close.

I realize many long range guys use some regular lower BC bullets sometimes.

My question is....at what ranges do you draw your line?

Shod

Cartridge/bullet/rifle/range?? You may have already typed it...but I ain't got the time. LOL.

I'm very envious. Hunt of a lifetime for most.

Typically PBR

Jordan I promise you that Partitions kill further than that.....you can actually hit animals with them,too.

A wise man once said, "I've got bullets older than you sonny!"

A thousand yard shot around here crosses over land owned by 3 or 4 different people, none of which want other people killing "their deer" on their land. I might get a 400 yard shot if I hunt on my FIL's farm, but that would be a rarity. So I suppose 400 yards is a practical limit for me. I tend to choose heavy-for-caliber cup/core bullets for my standard (non-magnum) rifles. The combination of moderate velocity, high mass to feed the mushroom, and higher BC tend to perform consistently near and far. I really like 175gr Hornady Interlock spitzers from my 7x57 at 2400-2500-something fps. They hit like a freight train and perform consistently.

Don't get me wrong, I understand others have their own preferences. That's one advantage of modern bullet technologies - choices. Whatever you like, practice with it and get good. The game deserves it.

Oregon: That's funny! I killed a buck earlier this month with a 130 screw machine NPT from a red box....I suspect that bullet is older than me.

Mike was shooting a .300 Weatherby, handloaded 200gr Accubond. The shot was 320 yards. He told me he put over 500 rounds through the rifle over the summer prior to coming out for the hunt.

Thanks Pat. Do they usually exit? Is the way they work comparable to anything else for reference?

Almost always on broadside shots. I can think of 2 kills I made with that bullet in my 6.5 that stayed inside. One was a black bear that I hit in the center of the chest, facing me at 150 meters. I didn't look for it,(bullet) but that bear died instantly, and never moved. The other was the mule deer buck I shot this past fall. It was only 40 meters. The bullet entered the neck/shoulder junction on his right side, penetrated the cavity, broke the left front shoulder, and was lodged under the hide there. He went down instantly as well and never knew what hit him. I've never had a scenar "grenade" on impact.

I'm not Pat, but:

if that is where I think it is, there are lotsa grizzly bears there

Exactly right Toad! Here's a picture I took less than a mile from where we shot that ram. This was an old sow grizzly that had two, two year old cubs with her.

FWIW, this picture shows the exit of a 139gr Scenar from a 260 at 430yds.

Need to add, that this was the farthest of 4 shot on that trip and it had the biggest exit.

One more FWIW, if you are seriously considering the unlimited hunts I'd go as soon as possible. The recent finding of pneumonia in bighorns in the Park leads me to believe that they'll go the way of the dodo.

kinda weights the bullet decision away from the frail. I carried a .375 last time I was there. (have to justify a .375 somehow)

LOL. I know, Bob! There's absolutely nothing wrong with the PT, and if a guy practices with them enough to hit his POA, they kill way out there. I've seen it myself. I was just giving my rule of thumb for using a relatively lower-BC TTSX. I typically carry with a mag full of TTSX, and load a couple of rounds of AM/VLD/MK in the mag once the shot is getting beyond PBR. That's just me.

I get it...

The largest grizzly I've ever seen was in there in 2004. I was glassing from high above the head of a large drainage and picked up with my binoculars what I thought was at first a moose feeding in a wide band of willow. A closer look with the spotting scope revealed a tremendous boar grizzly working his way across it. My pal and I watched him for over an hour. I finally said,"Look at him, he doesn't have a care in the world." Alan laughed, and said, "He doesn't have to care about anything." Top of the Apex....

I'm glad they're there. They've been there for thousands of years and belong there. That country wouldn't feel right without them being there.

Freaking awesome.....

I agree. the bears belong there. those backcountry bears mind their Ps and Qs but the bears closer to the trailhead can get a little pushy. still, nothing turns a walk in the woods into a treasured memory like brush with a big bear.

Glad that worked out. I have a precious half a yellow box of the same and looking forward to seeing similar results someday. Just imagine how awesome a 270WCF 130NP sheep hunting in grizzly country thread could be!

Well, now that I've been properly educated I sat down and printed me up a chart so as I can start running higher BC bullets for any shot past 10 yds. I'm gonna need wind drift figures from you Jordan for 20-90 yds as my program only gives wind drift in 100 yd increments.

Thanks
Shod

Well, now that I've been properly educated I sat down and printed me up a chart so as I can start running higher BC bullets for any shot past 10 yds. I'm gonna need wind drift figures from you Jordan for 20-90 yds as my program only gives wind drift in 100 yd increments.

Thanks
Shod

No problem. Just hold into the wind about a foot at that distance. Your flinch should pull the shot right into POA.

Thank me later.

JBM Ballistics

you've been led to water...

Toad thanks for the link. I'm going to be playing with a 7 STW and Nosler 168 LRAB's so that helps me out.

Dayum Pat that is a fantastic ram... what an incredible experience! Very cool!

Can someone post a pic of a recovered/mushroomed Scenar so that we can see how they look?

Thank you for the words of experience but I've never heard of that.

I'll just thank you for that one now!

Shod

Scenars Forte isnt mushrooming..Alltho I have seen some.

The 160 Accubond is the most accurate out of my 7 RM that I have tested at 400 yard targets. But, that rifle may like tipped TSX or partitions better, shoot the most accurate from long range targets.

My sample of one bombed inside and didn't leave very big pieces of shrapnel. One very dead deer though, quartering at about 200 yards.

90 grain from a 243 Winchester.

Apologies to the LR diehards, but this is one reason I cannot be 100% sold on using 7mm 168 VLD's when I go into a hunt knowing the shot could come at virtually any distance between 20 and 600 yards.

My hunting pard's N Louisiana whitetail taken a few days ago. Field dressed 155 lbs, 7mmRM HSM ammo featuring 168 VLD hunting bullets. 138 yards. Deer obviously dropped like a rock.

[img:left][/img]

That's pretty nasty, no thanks.

had an SMK do pretty much that exact same thing from a .264. this was in the '80s and I've never used them on game since.

Exit side?

As opposed to this nice quarter sized exit from one of my antelope hunter's 7RM/160 PT loads at 225 yds. Probably 95% of the partition bullet's exits that I've personally seen have looked like this.

[img:left][/img]

That's the type of exits I generally see from Partitions, or even smaller.

I've seen massive exits like that from several Bergers. I like the way they group, fly and kill, but am pretty darn careful of where the exit hole might end up!

I've had this happen with a 140 AB from my 7 WSM moving at 3200. Shot 2 deer with them and started using 160 AB at a more sedate 2975 ft/sec.

If it were me, I'd go 160 AB, 140/150/160 Partition.

That looks familiar.



That VLD shot deer is just a mess. I don't mmd killing them but mutilation is not on the agenda.

Here's the ON-side shoulder of a Mule deer shot at 140 yards with a 110gr Accubond out of a 25/06, started at around 3,000fps. The bullet did not make it to the off-side shoulder.




My only point being, weird things can happen with any bullet. The Berger exits I've seen did not look like JG's, but were actually very small in diameter. Funny schit happens when stuff goes really fast and hits meat and bones.

Tanner

Tanner, I agree even a Partition driven very fast will give the blood shot effect at times but day in and day out what JG showed is typical with that 160.

I seem to see a mess with the Partition at distances under 100 yards and starting speeds of 3200+ fps...that is sort of arbitrary but approximately right and usually involves the lighter weights. I notice the 270-130 is easier on the chops than a 140 from the 7 mag inside 200 yards.

I think it's the faster twist...

But I have never seen the damage shown by that VLD from a Partition. Someone PM'd me a pic of the damage from a Scenar 180 that was about as bad, on an antelope

I have seen 30-some animals shot with Berger VLD's and sometimes there's a bunch of damage and sometimes there isn't. Usually it's on the far-side, in fact I can't remember much damage around any entrance hole, because typically Bergers penetrate a couple inches before starting to expand, while most expanding bullets start as soon as they hit hide. Usually there's just a pinhole at the entrance, so small you often have to part the hair to find it.

I've also seen zero damage on the far side with Bergers--if the animal is big enough for the disintegrated bullet not to get that far. But usually that's on animals of elk-size on broadside shots, though it happens on smaller animals with angling shots. It also depends on range, velocity, etc. of course.

Have seen all sorts of weird stuff happen when shoulders are hit with various bullets. My wife once shot a coyote at about 200 yards with one of the first 140-grain TSX's, started at 3000 fps from a .270 Winchester. (We were hunting elk, but were done for the morning.) The poor coyotes shoulder looked like the .25-06 110 AB shoulder in Tanner's photo.

Eileen also killed a 3-year-old mule deer buck this fall with a 100-grain TTSX at 3150 from a .257 Roberts, range just under 100 yards. The bullet went tight behind the shoulder, halfway up, and out the other side in the same location, yet several POUNDS of meat were lost. That's not supposed to happen with TSX's, and usually doesn't, but it did.

Anytime bullets are started around 3000 fps or more, lots of damage can occur, especially if shoulder bone is hit, no matter what the bullet, especially at shorter ranges. When muzzle velocity is no more than 2500 fps, meat damage is normally considerably less, no matter what the bullet, though even then weird stuff can happen.

If we're interested in less meat and hide damage, all we can do is play the odds. In general the more weight a bullet sheds, the more bone it center-punches, and the closer the range, the more damage will be done both to meat and hide. If the bullet doesn't shed much weight, and is started slower, odds are far better for less meat and hide damage.

But....

Bullets behave differently at different ranges and with different shot placements. If there is the luxury of an unhurried shot at a standing animal you can place the mono metal bullet through bone or the soft bullet through lung tissue at close range to get the desired wound channel and maybe even the desired exit wound.
Sometimes, one hunts of a life time, by the time you have stalked the critter, he has moved, or maybe while you are stalking one animal you jump another even bigger animal. Then, you might have a 50 yard shot at an animal going like hell through timber, and you are doing well to hit him somewhere in the front half, or the animal is a quarter of a mile looking at you for a few seconds and you have a front on shot where you have to drive a bullet through the front shoulder to get to the vitals.
My own very meager experience and all the anecdotal evidence that I have ever heard or seen points to the Partition as being one of the best if not neck and neck with the best bullet to bet on as getting the job done.

Royce

Had a 7mm 180 scenar go in a bull elk at the last rib and exit just shy of the shoulder, I was impressed by it.

Also had a friend dump a big bull with a 180 scenar,hit the onside scapula passed thru..Both bulls had golf ballish exit wounds.

The pronghorn Bob referred to was mine..It was shot thru both shoulders from about 70 yards, 180 scenar started at nearly 3k FPS..I shuldnt have shot him there at that range..I think any bullet would have made a mess in that scenario..maybe not as big of one but who knows.

None of them took a step.

There is a guy that occasionally posts here under the screen name "Scenarshooter", who, strangely enough swears by Scenar bullets. Given his endorsement alone of them I would bet that they are the equal, at the least, of any bullet on the market. I have never laid eyes on a box of Scenars, much less shot anything with them.

Yeah I think I've heard of that guy..

Seems there's always a fantastic trophy, great pictures and no bullchit involved....

That's exactly like the damage I saw last year on a 30 yard dink from a 300 Savage hot loaded with 150 Hornady IL. I was being all cool with a high shoulder shot. Effective but messy. Not for me...

I shot a 200 lb mule deer buck with a berger at about 120 yds 4 years ago that was quartering and lost around 10 lbs of of side shoulder. For someone who likes eating the meat just as much as the hunt it was pretty discouraging.

Lately I've been using a 150 partition in my 270. With my new load Ive killed all game in the last 2 years with one shot and oddly enough I use the combo at distances often mentioned by the fellas shooting the higher BC bullets......such as point blank range and so forth.

The whitetail I shot the year before last at 530 yds sure died fast and the elk that I shot this year at 120 yds and hit off side shoulder sure has been good eating. All but about .6 oz of it.

Shod

Ive killed 30 or so big game animals in the last 5 years with 7mm 168 grain berger. Everything has just died. 50 yards to 776

35 years ago Sierra 7mm 160 gr SPBT's taught me why you don't shoot near side shoulders. When the 1st NBT's came out they reaffirmed what Sierras taught me. I like to eat my game, I know I can kill them and still eat them without blowup bullets with high bc's. Game shot to hell like some pictured in this thread only serves to remind me of the lessons I've already learned. If you have to shoulder shoot something aim for the far one to avoid ruining all your eating. Never ever saw a NPT thoroughly destroy the whole animal with one shot like some pictured on this thread. Flame away. Magnum Man

Folks, how about the 168gr Barnes LRX? BC .550 SD. 298, that gonna work?

That would be bad advice where bergers/scenars are concerned., shoot the onside shoulder with them it'll be fine..offside shoulder you might be able to throw a cat through if it exits..

I'm with you on the NPT tho, i've never seen them do anything too impressive either..Never anything better than a plain jane power point.

rosco1, I have experience with blowup bullets but not Bergers or Scenars my point was to get the vitals before worrying about breaking big bones. JB's first article on the Berger game bullets convinced me that they had nothing to offer of what I value in a bullet. When I get to a point in life(never will) that I can shoot with surgical precision like Scenarshooter I'll try the Scenar bullets. Until then I'll stake my shot of a lifetime with bullets that are accurate enough to go where placed, leave a good wound channel thru the vitals, break the far shoulder if asked to and leave an exit hole almost everytime. Bullets that blowup the eating are of NO value to me and I try to avoid at all costs. There is a lot of variables to contend with out there when trying to do a creditable job of killing an animal without destroying it. NPT's, Hornady IL, Corelokts, and power Pts have proven themselves to many times for me to stray from them. Magnum Man

I shot a few deer with an old 32 Special- Even that old low velocity chugger could churn up some meat if I put the bullet through meat-

Sometimes, to make an omelette, you gotta break a few eggs.

139gr scenar recovered from the mule deer in the background...

Had great results with the 168 or 180 VLD or JLK.

Had nothing but good luck with 160 accubonds h4831 powder. Used this combination in a sako fiberclass 7 mag since about 2001. Whitetail, mule deer and elk also many many coyotes. I have never been led to believe terminal performance could have left something to be desired. Interestingly the coyotes suffered less damage then many I shot with varmint rifles(most of the time). To me this is one of the finest combinations I have used. I have messed around with many calibers and load combinations, but this is the one that ends up hunting with me more often than not.

Thanks. Do they expand and penetrate consistently both close and far (both high and low velocities)?

175 LRAB
168 LRAB
168 LRX
Bergers after these

Good choice on the twist btw. Longer 7mm bullets are in our future....

To John's point, the 7mm 150 gr PT is a fantastic bullet!
7mm 150 gr PT shot from my 280 AI at a MV of 3015 fps (61.0 grs RL 22) and recovered in the 6th jug at 100 yds.
Recovered weight 101.7 grs, expanded to .678".




JD338

That looks really good!

I have been through a number of 7mmRM bullets and settled on the 140 gr Nos Bal Tip at 3400 fps with H4350.

I had over 100,000 posts on usenet before there was a gun forum on www. I have seen it all on gun forums, and I know there is no point in arguing terminal ballistics.

You can talk, but don't argue. There is too little data and too much out of control variables. We each have to form our own opinion from scant anecdotes and gun culture mythology.

Sako264- rocky mt can weigh 350 , desert ram 150-175. i shot my rocky with 168 berger, 7mm. went about 3/4 the through. very accurate. ram went about 10 yards. my experience with the 7mm mag with a 139 horn btsp, 140 sierra btsp, or a 140 accubond on big mule deer all excellent. the speed of the 140 grain bullets at 0-500 yd make up for bc. if i was hunting rocky mtn ram i would use a tougher bullet like the 139-140 mentioned. the hard part is drawing the tag.

The mature deserts I've helped with as well as my own seemed much closer to 200 pounds. I'm sure a Rocky is bigger though.