Yeah...........there is probably 37 other threads on the same subject. Not much "new" out there we can hash over but every one I've read on the subject of "what a bullet is SUPPOSED to do".......no one agrees on squat. Ya'll ever realize how danged confusing this makes it for anyone picking a bullet?

100 percent of us will agree on one thing >>>>> Bullet PLACEMENT is king. Yup. I agree too.

The rest of it? I think we "over think" it for everything but stuff that may jump up and bite us or perhaps trample us into broken pieces while running away.

Some bullets have a great following and they rant on how they retain "9999.99 percent bullet weight recovery" (an exaggeration.)

Those using another bullet type (or maybe 2) rant how their bullet "goes in 2-3 inches and comes apart doing maximum damage".

Another bullet type has as many followers who quote that their bullets "loses xy percent of it's weight but the rest stays together and passes through". Allegedly a combination of bullet 1 and bullet 2.

Then we have the crew that insists the bullets with .02 higher BC shoot so flat that they can put the bullet "exactly where they want it" (right) when they "gain" that .7 inches of trajectory.

I actually saw a post recently where the long time member of that WELL known site said "he didn't care what the bullet DID as long as he could put it right where he wanted"(he thinks) and another 1/4 MOA of accuracy was ALL that counted.

For the time being lets totally IGNORE the medium speed heavy bullet vs the super rocket light bullet never ending debate.

Ya'll give me a humongous headache. Every one of these bullets is the best thing since sliced bread!! Just ask those who use them!

For DEER sized, aka medium class animals, SINCE we all agree on bullet placement being the MANDATORY criteria to be met for DRT kills..........are we just beating a dead horse er uh deer?

I CONTINUALLY read rants over "bullet failure" with photos shown of bullet pieces/parts taken from some deceased critter (that more often than not "didn't go far"). Uh hello? I've never seen a photo of a bullet that FAILED because live deer won't hold still long enough to let one dig it out!!

Me thinks I'm going to pick up some ye ol' Speer Hot Cor or Hornady Interlocks and go shoot deer!!!

This is not TRUELY a "RANT" but perhaps a chance for each to offer their own "viewpoint".....KEEPING IN MIND this is all in good fun and not a battleground.........please!!


What say ye Gunwriters and fellow Campfire brethren?
DOES IT REALLY MATTER in what way the bullet does it's job?

God Bless

Steve I don't blame you for being confused. I am,too and have been for years.

To simplify,I think in terms of "penetration"(a bullets first job);and "expansion",second. To effect clean kills under a wide range of striking velocities, you need to have both. If it does one well but not the other,I'd rather leave it home, but will always tilt in favor of penetration, even after expansion.

And it has to be capable of breaking the heaviest bones in an animal (coming or going) to get into vitals, regardless of angle.(No I am not talking ass shots to reach vitals. I won't take that shot on an unwounded animal).

Proper placement is a given...but that's a long ways from being "all that's required".

Which one's do this? Let everyone figure it out for themselves. I have my own notions as I am sure others do.

All true......But.

"it has to be capable of breaking the heaviest bones in an animal (coming or going) to get into vitals, regardless of angle."

The only "heaviest bones" that cover the vitals are the leg bone and scapula (unless shooting steeply downward.

I really have no information of a bullet TYPE that will not go through these but there has seemed to be bullet WEIGHTS (aka very light for caliber) being pushed by the newest and greatest flame thrower cartridge that may not. HERE Again..IMHO that is a bullet WEIGHT issue, not construction nor function.

If there exists a bullet type that will NOT go through the (fragile I might add)scapula of a deer.....there wont be a lot of people toting it's a wonder bullet....... right?

The bullet MUST perform. I am in agreement yet all will do what you are saying......IMHO or no one would use them.

God Bless and thanks for replying.

I think part of the problem is that we ask an awful lot of a lowly bullet. The other part of the problem is that the deer have to cooperate too, which they don't want to do.

Where I hunt in Mississippi a deer is never more than a few steps away from a thicket so DRT shots help. Tracking deer into a brier thicket isn't fun and can be a challenge. In my experience DRT is harder to achieve than one might think. The only combo I've ever had consistent DRT shots on deer without a central nervous system hit with is a 7mm rem mag shooting 140 gr nosler ballistic tips. I only recall one deer out of hundreds I shot with that combo that ran anywhere, and that one ran because the bullet blew up on a rib opening about a 10" hole on the side of her rib cage. She went about 100 yds spewing blood everywhere and fell over when she bled out, it wasn't pretty.

I eventually got away from the 7mm mag/140 ballistic tip combo because the bullet wasn't stout enough to push through from all angles, I wanted something that would penetrate better that could be relied upon not to blow up on bone. There are plenty of bullets that do that but my percentage of DRT shots went way down when I switched to them. It's a trade off I've decided to make to get more consistent bullet performance. I don't try and make CNS shots, I shoot for the shoulders. CNS shots are too iffey for me and the potential to horrendously wound one is too high for me. Shot placement is certainly king but if you shoot enough deer your shot placement will be lacking on some of them, a shoulder shot gives me the widest margin of error while still giving a killing shot.

A couple of weeks ago I shot a medium sized doe that was looking at me head on from 210 yds. I was shooting a TTSX and it probably penetrated a good 2' stem to stern before stopping but she still ran about 25-30 yds. That's not far but unfortunately she went straight into the thickest cutover you've ever seen and didn't drop any blood for about the first 10 yds, enough to where I couldn't find the blood trail that evening. I found her the next morning (fine after a very cold night) but she could have easily been lost even after such a short run for lack of a DRT. Anywhere else other than where I'm at you could have likely watched her fall after a 5 sec. run, but down here it doesn't work that way.

Bottom line is you just can't win, nothing with so many variables involved will ever turn out perfect every time so you pick the bullet that gives the performance you're looking for and take your chances.

Interesting.
I've had only a couple incidents where I HAD TO have a DRT shot result. I fully agree on how to make that happen the most. My only option (only for me) at that point is a shot that takes at least one shoulder AND the spine, AKA a high shoulder hit......for which Id use a heavy bullet...and probably bigger bore than most, but I'm weird LOL

God Bless

Steve my answer is "no" not all bullets will do that...and it very much IS an issue of construction...bullet weight alone won't always do it.

Ever see a bullet flattened against a vertebrae,or a shoulder knuckle at the end of a wound channel? Or fail to penetrate any further into the chest after shattering on a shoulder knuckle?

It isn't just bullet weight although that helps.

No matter what we shoot we can't always be assured of DRT's unless you take out the spine,or brain or some portion of that central nervous system. With pure vital organ hits,no bone...they can make tracks. There are no guarantees but IME if you can combine immobilizing hits with extensive damage to vital organs,things simply don't go very far....usually.

Nope. After just under 4000 deer I have personally deboned in a 16 year span....I can't say as I have.

Strange things happen it seems. I can only go by what Ive seen in decades of hunting and a decade and a half of doing near structural damage autopsies on deer have shown me.

I just cant see ANY bullet doing so......and having people continue to use them is all I'm saying and if not being used, therefore are not within the bullets I am comparing in the original thread.

Perhaps, with the help of your post, I should add this.

All the above hunters, using the bullets types mentioned, are not experiencing lack of penetration due to bone. EACH claims it is a "do all end all" bullet type..without flaw.

And THIS is what is so confusing to me.

No offense meant and thank you for your addition.

God Bless

I've seen both. Maybe because you are just looking at deer,which aren't all that tough to begin with and lots of bullets will work on them?

Personally I never choose bullets with just deer in mind.Because I hunt other stuff from time to time,and don't pick bullets based on deer hunting only.

If you have never seen three legged elk run off from inadequate penetration, I don't know what to say,so no offense taken.

I am in agreement. Elk is an entirely different subject.

We wouldn't agree there either. *wink*

(Big bore fan!!)

God Bless and thanks again!

I have to agree with Steve692. A lot of guys get completely wrapped around the axle when it comes to their expectations of a bullet.

I shared with a resident X bullet elitist a couple of years ago that I was looking for a Winchester 1910 in 401 WSL. He immediately launched into a disparaging diatribe about the low BC and SD of the bullets for that round and how ill suited they were for any long range endeavors. Really? Did he think I was going to try a 600 yard shot with it? It's a 50-100 yard round for Pete's sake. How much sectional density do you need to whack a deer at 50 yards?

9999.99 Percent?

Thanks!!
On that note I'll tell you one thing in addition that gets my brain going "tilt tilt!" since you mentioned it.

Sectional density.

Sectional density is MEASURED by diameter and weight.......NEITHER of which STAY THE SAME going through a critter..NOR will the exact same bullet from the same box ALWAYS repeat said expansion and weight loss due to WHAT ALL it comes in contact with.

SD is something to LOOK AT......but it is not, and cannot be by description of how it is calculated "a constant" that a lot feel it IS.

my 2 cents on that and as always, no offense to the SD buffs.

Yep, the bullet has to weigh "enough" to penetrate. That said the "SD RATING" is a shot in the dark at what it will actually provide in penetration.

As an EXTREME example.

A FMJ bullet has the same "SD RATING" as a thin jacketed soft point of the same size and weight.

Penetration compared between the two is in different atmospheres.

God Bless

hence the "exaggerated" behind such.
It was meant to be humorous.

Cool, I was Hoping.


99.9999 Percent maybe.

Yep. Not totally loony ....just a rifle loony is all.

GOOD LUCK Bob !

This train never runs out of fuel!!

I can stop a Deer (Even J D) but a TRAIN?? No Way!

For some reason I can't figure out that already has been mentioned, some can't understand bullet 'failure' with a pic of a dead deer. I've tried to XPLAIN that morenonce. No Luck.

I've quit trying.

Retained weight and penetration are for low-lifes. Everybody who's anybody knows the more a bullet costs, the better it works.

LOL @ MD's post!!

Partition is never the wrong answer.

Next question......

Justifying more expensive alternatives, and not only bullets, is practically a sport here at the 'fire.

How confusing can Nosler Partition be;)

Just being the devil's advocate and giving this as an example of what I am talking about....

The posts above is the "norm" for posts concerning the Partition .........but....

There is RIGHT NOW a thread on the same website this thread is where more than one is stating the BT has attributes superior to the Partition.

It IS about a particular bore size though.

I don't recall them saying either has a different performance style but just that the BT out performs the Partition. ("Small hole in, small hole out" is the quote I recall from 30 minutes ago for the partition.....but I don't see that posted often either)

On top of all the information we all find one fact remains at least to me.

Shoot the one you have faith in........regardless who says what.

Confidence is a killer when it comes to such in our equipment, IMHO.

The other fact is.......there are too many dang kinds of bullets!!!

God Bless

A good bit more than a 45 caliber flatnose cast bullet made out of wheelweights....

Not confusing to me at all. Buy Barnes and am done. No need for anything else, well except for my subsonic, which is actually a barnes basically, just not made by them...

I love it when its not complicated.

Getting two holes is never a confusing proposition.

I've never had any issues with Partitions killing well, but I've seen some less than stellar tracking jobs in thick cover that made me think a larger entrance hole was needed....or a bullet that makes an exit.

Luckily, after a while, the critter bleeds from the mouth....

You know the secret. Use the bullet you have faith in. That's it. No magic. No voodoo.

WRT the sometimes heated discussions that happen here, just relax, sit back and watch the fun. The entertainment you get is cheaper than pay per view.

---
"..you must consider the atmospherical air affects of the air on bullets in the air and stuff..."

"...Did you know that gamma rays can cause instability in copperized bullets in a dibilitated ionasphere?"

'...The Gel-O Bullet (a monolithic gel bullet) stays together, but mushrooms as it enters, much the same as a child's rubber ball flattens when bounced off a wall. It deforms slightly, but the energy pushes it forward and it doesn�t come apart. This creates a wide wound channel. The material is flexible, but tough!"
---

If you consider who is having the discussion the confusion is well understood.


Do people who chime in consider

No shot is perfect, but you can have a perfect impact
Shots, especially follow up shots are rarely the shot we want to take

So do we describe how we want a bullet to perform based on reality? Most people in my experience do not.

Some people that shoot many, many critters and have via real life experience pick better bullets - however some never adjust so even these folks can let you down.

+1

I was going mention that the answer was created in 1948.......

I usually tend to agree with Bob and this time is no exception. The simple fact is deer aren't that hard to kill. The worst thing is to have too tough a bullet - one that does minimal internal damage. I've killed deer with a bunch of bullets from numerous calibers (plus bows, shotguns, muzzleloaders, various revolvers and pistols) and all the commonly avaiable bullets launched at various velocities. In my mind, a very simple algorithm exists:2900 ft/sec or less pick a cup/core of your choice, 2900+ choice wisely and consider shot placement, distance, bullet integrity.

As to BC,it is a factor if that situation presents itself AND you're capable of pulling it off. For 90+% of hunting, I'd venture most wouldn't notice the difference with round nose bullets. I may even have used RN bullets a time or two - its hard to find a spitzer for the 45-70.

For critters bigger than deer, start with the considerations outlined above for 2900+ - even if your bullet is traveling much slower. Bigger animals = bigger bones, greater bullet travel distance. Bullet integrity is a more serious consideration.

I've made bullet selection simple.
Nosler Partitions work for everything I shoot.
They may not be perfect, maybe not even the best, but the are good enough.
Same with my rifles, when they reach a point where I am confident they will get the job done, I quit looking.

All really good additions gang.

IMHO we "complicate it" way too much and way too often.

BC is a much heralded thing that is at the top of the heap in advertising and advertising is always of interest and some of us want to jump on the next "new and improved" wagon.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that of course other than the times that such, somehow, results in opinions that the "old time" bullets no longer work and work well.

I also agree on the mentioned categorizing of which type for which velocities but my own is slightly different being impact velocities at expected ranges and MY preference to not have such anywhere CLOSE to the advertised "minimum velocity" manufacturers state as such for a given bullet. In photos and in tests of my own, few that they be, what the manufacturers CALL expanding and what I CALL expanding is not the same thing.

All this thread totals up to is the fact that, as usual, a lot of us don't agree. Lots of things affect what we see and what we take stock in BUT it is tough to ignore the fact that ALL of them "work" at least the majority of the time or there wouldn't be so many swearing by them.

What works in our cartridge of choice, game of choice, range of shots taken will differ even if we had a literal twin out there shooting identical equipment.

Much ado about nothing???? Maybe, maybe not. Being old and old fashioned I simply cannot ignore things that have "worked" and worked quite well for decades. The reputation rounds like the 270 Winchester were MADE shooting these old cup and core bullets of mention.

Something to be said for that I believe. YMMV.

God Bless and thanks to all contributing.


PS Mule Deer had an article on BC and of course, I learned much from it. Here it is for those not having yet read it.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/articles/john-barsness-ballistic-coefficient.pdf

A Slice of History � Tikka, God of the Thunderpole
By Nelford Beardsley

Many, many years ago, when the world was flat and man hunted to eat, come Tikka, god of the Thunderpole. He appeared out of the sky, or so the story goes, to rid the mortal world of the forges that tempted man and stole his money. Them blacksmiths was evil, tellin� folks about the miraculous killin� properties of the arrowheads and bullets hand forged in their smithys.

Yep, things was about to heat up for them nasty blacksmiths. And you know what? The expression �forgeries� come from that time, when folks was fooled into believin� that smiths could �forge� magical steels to kill animals and slay man�s emen, ememnies.

Anyhow, Tikka was your typical heroic figure - tall, Nordic, with piercin� blue eyes. He was reckoned to be seven feet tall, with golden hair and a lean, muscled body. He surely was the legendary hunter-god that mortal men spoke of with reverence. He was also someone you didn�t want to cross!

See, Tikka was POed because of what all the other gods was talkin� about when they went to their weekly meetin�. They discussed all the usual stuff - world creations, slaying dragons, lookin� after humans and crushin� evil entities. But one particular week they was all sittin� around discussin� what you call �congers�. Congers is whatever a god or demi-god creates when they cast a spell or use a charm.

I�ll give you an example of a conger. You remember that evil Greek lady Medusa? She was the person who turned regular folks to stone if you looked into her eyes. Once upon a time, she was a beautiful young thing, but Athena turned her into that ugly, snaked haired grumpy person you read about in school. Medusa was what you call a conger, okay?

It�s all pretty confusin� so far, right? Don�t worry, it gets easier.

So Tikka showed up somewhere in the flatlands and called for all the mortal lords to meet.

�I call upon the lords of the world - Whinchestur, Remmingtun; Baron Lee of Enfield, the Earls; Savage and Whittwurth, and governor of the Canadas � Sir Dudley Dooright of the Mounties. Drop what you�re doin� and come hither to me!� (I just loves that olde English talk).

This here is what you call a recap. So far, we got an angry god � Tikka - callin� for a gatherin� of the leaders of the humans - assorted lords, earls and such. The meetin� has gonna happen somewhere in the flatlands of earth - probably Kansas.

So all these human bosses come together at the appointed place, and when they got there, Tikka was pissed! I wasn�t there, but it was said that he laid into them guys real hard!

�What fool would allow an evil forger into their kingdom? Who believes the stories of the mystical bullets that kill by magic? Some of your citizens have been duped into believing that game is gutted and quartered when the bullet or arrow strikes!�

�My Lord Tikka...�

�Shut up! I have given you iron and galena. These are the creations of the gods that bring food to your table, not black magic!�

�But Lord, the Forge of Knoslur is known far and wide for producing golden projectiles that will strike down animals from half a furlong distant!�

�Five chains distant? Are you mad? Tis the skill of the hunter that makes this so, not a piece of golden wrapped lead! My lords, you have fallen under the same spell that blights the common man.�

�What of the sacred monolithic, made by Baarnes Forge, my lord? It is so tough, not even Mj�lnir, Thor�s hammer, can destroy it!�

�What nonsense! You would compare something made by man to Thor�s hammer? Still, I ask you, why would ye need a god�s hammer to fell a deer?�

Well sir, them human earls and knights just looked at each other, red faced. They slowly realized that they was lied to, and that got them really, really angry!

�Humans cannot rely on lies and congering to feed themselves. No metal has supernatural powers. A keen eye and a steady hand win the day. If you truly love your subjects, you will give them the skills to hunt. Teach them how to stalk and kill. Help them learn the way of the land and animals so that they may feed their families. This is what great leaders do!�

So, all them human dukes and earls talked through the night, and come up with a plan to help their people and rid the land of the evil smithys. And within a few months, them forges was gone and people was happy, doin� what people did back then � huntin� and wallowin� in mud.

That is a really cool story. It has a message. Whatcha call a parable. In the olde days, they figured magic could help them. These days, a lot of folks figure that money buys them success. But it�s like Lord Tikka said, a steady hand and a keen eye is all a person needs.

It�s time for you folks to ponder on that for a spell.

The only time I ever pay attention to BC is shooting gophers in Montana, they are kinda small way out there. Muddy

At least we can now look our grandfather's in the eye and say we know better, because they never had colored and coated bullets or little plastic hats on them.

We know everything now. They deer are terrified of us, which is why they hide more than they used to in granddad's day.

Except when the corn feeder goes off.

Maybe we could put a bell or triangle on the feeder to officiate the commencement of the meal?

Along with a bar code on each deer, to indicate whether it's been genetically modified.

Maybe some romantic music,you know,to make the meal....special.

MD,

Good article on BC. Puts my mind at ease knowing that I don't need to get rid of my .257 Weatherby and replace it with something that shoots bullets with a .700 BC.

Na. Color coded ear tags so they are visible at greater distances. No surprises that way.

The bar code would be more useful after dropping the deer to scan with your SUPER smart phone so "trophy" fees can be automatically deducted from your bank account.

Hope no one patents all these great ideas before those of you who came up with them can capitalize on such.

God bless

I remember hearing about this Steve. Wasn't it found on a parchment in one of the caves of Morduur -- the Revelation to Tikka.

OK Steve end of conversation. We are talking apples and oranges.

A bowel of pop corn really helps.

No clue myself George. Today is the first I have seen it.

God Bless

doubletap,

Yeah, if you're not determined to shoot beyond 500, the old-time solutions still work.

Was addressed to Steve Redgwell.

Sorry......missed his first name was same as mine.

It surely was. An obscure work by an unknown person, entitled Caminus Periculum - Dangerous Forge.

This document also contained advice on the stock market - when a stock market was a place for trading animals. One particularly telling entry was about cattle being struck with open sores in the spring of the year. "Beware the hides of March..." or words to that effect. It has been years since my studies.

Ave! (pronounced ah-VEY!)

I didn't read thru your whole post buddy. But if you said in there somewhere that all you use is Nosler partitions, you are in good company... Keep doing what you are doing...

I thought Bob was going to tell Steve to just use a partition and STFU... But Bob and Steve are 2 nice guys. Just 2 nice...

Well once you get past how to open the box, the rest is easy...

In the past few years I've learned that an Accubond is an awesome bullet. In hindsight though, I learned all I ever really needed to know about bullets in 1972, the first year I discovered a Nosler partition, the standard by which all other hunting bullets are judged, for over 60 years.

The bullet technology that is still not invented is the radioactive coating we can scan with an app on our cell phone so we can locate easily and save on autopsy time.

On that basis, all bullets are still prototypes?

I think I have a corpse finder app on my smart phone...

Sorry, but I have seen far too many failed bullets inside dead animals... Animals that may not have died in a fashion near timely enough to prevent shedding of my, or others' blood had they not met a bullet that did not fail... and left two holes.

To date I have yet to see an Accubond that did not fail by my standards. 100% captured in animals I have watched shot with them from deer to Kodiak bears. While a small sample group, the results are more than telling to me. At the same time I have never personally captured a bullet with an X stamped on the base.

While most of my deer hunting is done where big bears live and my needs may go beyond the needs of a West Texas hog shooter, my bullet choices also work everywhere else, damage considerably less meat on equal shot placement, and cost less at local retail prices...

Plays like a winning card followed by two trumps...

How many consider shooting a small brown bear with a .257 80gr bullet a stunt? The lightest NPT is not even made that light and gives up significant velocity with a 25% increase in weight... I would not consider shooting a brown bear with one without very specific conditions being met... I would not hesitate with the TTSX 80gr under any reasonable conditions.

Here's the long and short of it!

Bullets work a lot better than most shooters thereof!!

This was my contention earlier from a friend just last week.

He refused to point his 100gr. .264 Partitions at running gear on the hogs, after I had told him on the phone five minutes earlier to do just that.

He shot four hogs at dusk and found only one. The only one he tried breaking the shoulder with.

I'm sure every one died with bullets stuck in the offside hide and jellied lungs, but a 264 entrance hole on a Russian mix doesn't bleed worth a whoop and hunting the cover he was in (brushy oak fauna with hog rooting all over) made tracking in the dark tough.

Some Partitions will go clear through most hogs with lung shots, but the 100gr. .264 isn't at the top of that list.

Yup that very thing has found me looking under a good mag to count the fart bubbles in a tub.grin

You're over thinking it.

All carry on as you wish since the path is of interest to a few..but: MY original question is about type and the entire rest of my post disappeared......again. I have the dangedest time here.

Thanks Dan.
I was typing when you replied.

I am in agreement but the opinions offered are interesting albeit a bit off track.

God Bless

So if I read this right, you are looking for a bullet that ALWAYS gives DRT's with soft tissue hits(ribs /lungs?),no bones, on deer,at any reasonable distance. If they run 25-30 yards that's unacceptable,right?

I doubt you are going to find it....people spend too much time looking for "perfect deer bullets". Waste of time IMHO. Like searching for the Lost Ark, or jousting with windmills.

But I suppose we have to do something in the of season, right?

The only way to reach your goal is to take head/spine shots only

Any bullet will work IF your placement is perfect

I know the rest of my post "disappeared" but a buddy and I HAVE had these results 14 consecutive times in 3 years, 2 of which were heavy bone (1 shoulder 1 spine) hits. The other 12 dropped or went less than 10-12 yards. Some no bones directly hit, some a rib or two. No blood trails needed.

I seriously am leaning towards it's not JUST the bullet TYPE but bore (and weight which goes hand in hand) along with the bullet function. Maybe the bore size is more important than "most" think.

It seems this is not "standard" results.

Thanks to all. 5 years from now I'll give an update LOL
If I cannot get similar results with the .264 and .284 bore rifles in the works.........

I'll go back to 35 caliber.

God Bless

I had a similar string,about a dozen..on deer...with 7mm mag and 270 with 130 and 140 Bitterroots back in the 90's...all were "DRT". Mix of lung and shoulder shots.

One 300# black bear collapsed to a 280-140 BBC through the lungs and never moved.

Until one mule deer at 300 yards, hit with a 140-7mm,pushed off with hind legs,both shoulders smashed,and tumbled 50 yards down the mountain.Dead on arrival but that broke the "string" of DRT's.

Last 4 bucks I have fired 6 shots;each was "dead" first shot,but 2 did not know it. The other two collapsed. All 270-130 Partitions.

Along your line of thought, the BBC's in 270/7mm typically expand to app. .65 caliber,sometimes more. It ain't always what you start with for frontal area, but what you get after expansion.

But this is no guarantee you will get DRT's every time. One of the sloppiest deer kills I ever saw was with the magic 350 Rem Mag;the bad assed perfect brush rifle, in Saskatchewan....the buck was swiss cheesed from those magic brush bullets. He was not even very big LOL!

There is no "magic" deer bullet. Many work well if you place them well.

Yep! JUST for the record, in the past 43 *FORTY THREE* deer seasons, I have *never* used ANY premium bullet on WT deer.

That's NOT to indicate nor even intimate all my shot placements have been 'perfect'. Far from it.

I post this just to clarify that I don't propose 'premium' bullets are needed FOR WT deer.

I'm not opposed nor do I argue w/anyone about using NPTs, Barnes, etc. on WT. I also think that most will agree that 'premium' bullets SHINE on larger big game.

I've had my very best performance with 1 shot DRT's with about the most anti-24hrcampfire combination possible:

Factory 30-06 Hornady SST 150's shot out of my 20" Benelli autoloader at 300 savage like velocities (about 2650 fps). I lost track of the total number of hogs, well over 200 and a dozen or so deer taken with that combination. I don't remember a single animal making it more than about 35yards, vast majority dropped dead at the shot.

I never took a shot over 200 yards with that set-up, most under 100. Damage was extensive, but I usually got pass through's, even when punching big hogs in the shoulders. Recoil was quite mild and it became common to get doubles and triples on hogs.



David

I guess the only thing that surprises me about that is the SST.

Obviously it works for you w/in your parameters.

If it works, DON'T FIX IT !!

Congratulations

I think the velocity is the key. I've shot other SST's in other rifles at signicantly higher velocities and had less favorable results.

David

+1

I've not it personally but have seen high vel SST's used several times and results were ugly.

IME, most bullet "failures" were caused by the shooter, not the bullet.

Steve, this thread is deserving of the laughing smiley!

In spite of all the 'latest & greatest'....these will whack anything that walks:

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/components/rifle-bullets/core-lokt-bullets.aspx

I've also seen my share of SST disasters........higher velocities didn't help any.

The SST might be the worst bullet ever invented. I have experience w/them in .257 and .284. Both times they left gaping surface wounds w/no penetration and in one case the animal was still alive and suffering upon reaching him. One time each for each caliber...never again. Guys were not talking high velocity here as the two cartridges were the 257 Roberts and 7x57. powdr

I quit using SST's several years back. I found them to be inconsistent, although they were very accurate.

DF

Interesting. Using them in a buddies dads 270, and starting to see some similar results.

Luckily I"d already ordered 95 ttsx to replace them with before I read this....

Core-lokt's are good, just not "cool"...

DF

I killed a lot with corelokts.

When I moved into taxidermy I realized how many jacket core seperations there were..... yeah, thats a bit risky to me.

This year we had same happen at the lease... the buck eventually bled out, but not before a LONG trailing job, and all that got him were minor frags that got into the ribcage, rest of the 150 grain 06 bullet was blown apart on the front leg bone.

So while they generally work I tend to go for broke... a bullet that will work in any situation that arises that i personally feel the need or desire to fire in.

Cast?

In Mississippi our primative weapons season allows the use of 45-70's and here recently 35 Whelens so I've shot quite a few with those rounds. I've also shot a fair number of deer with a .375 H&H just because I have it and wanted to do it. I haven't found that any of these rounds put deer down any quicker than more common smaller bores. In fact I've found the opposite, the smaller bores usually result in quicker kills and less distance traveled. I attribute this to the higher velocity of the smaller bores. I've found that high velocity coupled with a fast expanding bullet gives the most DRT kills, but with that comes a lot of bloodshot meat and erratic bullet performance. Deer are easy to kill, it's just getting them to drop in their tracks that's the hard part.