We don't have a Military Rifles forum so maybe one of you guys can text Mike Venturino real quick and get the answer.

On a Swiss K31 7.5x55, the rear sight markings go down to 100 yards. My question is how far above the point of aim does the bullet impact at 100 yards? Is it right on top of the front blade or some distance higher? Same question for the 200 yard marking - how far above POA is POI?

Just got a very nice K31 Monday and taking it out for initial trials this afternoon and the answer to the above will save me some ammunition and maybe prevent some damage to my target frame.

Example of one, but my K31 shoots an inch or so low and left for me at 100 yards with Swiss military ammo, and the rear sight set on "1". I seem to recall the 1 means 100 meters, not yards, but am not totally sure if my memory's correct, especially at this point in life.

I would, however, bet the 2 setting would be pretty close at 200 yards as well.

Thanks for the quick reply, that'll be close enough to get me on target at 100 meters without blowing holes in the wooden frame like I did with my Yugo Mauser. Just didn't know whether to use a 6 o'clock hold or where???

I should have figured the Swiss would be precise about that.


FWIW, these are pretty neat rifles although they sure look different. The trigger pull is excellent and everything inside is nicely polished. I took the bolt apart for initial cleaning and even though this rifle was made in 1941 it looks brand new. The nice thing for me as a left hander is that the straight pull bolt with that big handle is really easy to use from the left shoulder.

Yep, they're really good rifles. But as you suggested, that's typical of Swiss stuff.

Does it still have the slip of paper under the buttplate, with the name of the citizen it was issued to?

I'm not at my computer now but i have a 150 grain load that prints dead on but 1.5" high at 100 w/the proper sight setting. I think I was using re19. Mine shoots phenominal w/open sights...wish it were ez to slap a scope on for a real test...bet it would be ez under moa!
I wish it weren't such a big ox.....I'd love to use it for Wis whitetail...carrying it through brush would get old fast!

Yeah, they're pretty phenomenal. If only McMillan made a stock....

I tried a bunch of handloads in mine for a magazine article, without changing the sight setting. A couple shot dead-on, one into just a little over an inch.

Unfortunately, no. The dealer would guarantee one with the ID tag under the buttplate for an extra $20 but I decided to gamble on it. I did pay extra for a hand picked "best of 10" where they will look over 10 rifles and pick the best one cosmetically and make sure it came with a sling. I also asked for a walnut stock which I got, they switched to beech sometime in the mid to late 40's. Exterior condition is really good for military surplus, dings and dents but the finish is in good shape, light years ahead of my M24/47 and a 1915 Swede 96, and the wood is a nice piece of walnut. Apparently most K31's have the butt area torn up badly from the ice crampons Swiss soldiers slung over their shoulders but this one seems to have escaped that fate for the most part.

Have been getting interested in these old military surplus rifles even though the prices are rising and the availability is decreasing at increasing rates on both sides of that equation. I buy these as shooters, not lookers, and the K31 has a reputation as a strong action with excellent accuracy and that bolt operation appealed to my southpaw affliction.

Have a look at the MOJO sights for it. I have a set on mine and the accuracy at long range is very good, despite my aging eyes.

IIRC mine shot pretty much to point of aim with the surplus ammo.

And the K31 is the carbine version. They don't sporterize very well but I have seen some attempts to do so. Think I'll leave this one in issued condition.

With a Merit disc the open sights are usable for older guys and if a fellow needs more Mojo makes a very nice fully adjustable aperture sight that directly replaces the issue ladder sight, it pops right into the hinge and uses the issue hinge pin. You'd think a peep sight that far forward wouldn't be very useful but I put them on the Yugo and the Swede and they work very well, especially when you use them with a clearly defined bullseye target. They aren't expensive either, only about $49-70 IIRC which is the same or less than a new Williams FP.


Added: We think alike. I was typing as you were replying.

Wow, I didnt know that! First thing I'm going to check when I get home..

Mine doesn't have the paper under the butt plate, but it is an excellent and accurate rifle.

One of my favorite rifles.....not much to look at they sure are accurate! This was a group (3-shots) I fired at 50 yards when I was sighting in with diopter sights.



Well built rifles that are accurate - what more can you ask for (besides a McMillian )

PennDog

Well, the first outing with untested loads went okay. I was working up a pressure series with 43, 44, 45 and 46 grains of IMR4895 and Hornady 150 grain Spire Points at the book OAL of 2.875".

The 100 meter sight setting was spot on for elevation but printing just a touch to the right. Even with a merit disk on my glasses the rear sight is just a bit too close to my eyes and it's hard to get the top of that rear blade good and sharp. It was easy to keep the horizontal grouping good but I strung the groups vertically a bit more than I like. Looks like this one gets a Mojo sight. That rearward placement will actually work better with an aperture sight.

Here it is, standard issue K31, date of birth 1941. I think I'm going to like this one.




This is two four shot groups with one grain of powder difference between groups. It's not hard to keep the shots together horizontally although vertical dispersion could be improved, that's 2 1/2" between the top and bottom shots. But that's the fault of my eyesight, not the rifle. Still, for a first try it's not disappointing. At least the POI was right at the POA for elevation. I held back five rounds of the starting load for plinking at the end of the formal shooting. The backstop on this particular range is about 250 yards away so I set the sights for 200 meters, held on a rock about as big as a small melon and popped it five times in a row from the kneeling position. Whee.

Larry Racine, a 'smith known for his competition work, from Keene, NH, does K31 accuracy work. He makes a receiver sight base that might interest some folks.

www.lprgunsmith.com

Great shooting Jim! I need to work up so hunting loads in this rifle (I've always just shot GP-11).....any load suggestions would be appreciated!

PennDog

p.s. Thanks 260Remguy the link!

A few years ago I saw a K31 advertised for sale with two bolts, one being left hand. I never saw another quite like it but I see now there's a left hand conversion kit available.

Pretty neat. I just tracked it down and apparently that left hand op rod, or LHO as the Swiss cognescenti call it, is a fairly rare item. They have promised a run of 200 more sometime in the near future but that was January of this year.

In the meantime it's not hard to operate with the left hand. Just keep the rifle shouldered and give it a quarter turn counter clockwise, reach over and pull/push the operating handle. That orientation also keeps the empty cases from flying straight up and landing on your head, an idiosyncrasy I discovered in the first four rounds fired.

You get attatched to the looks.
Like Savages at first ain't the most attractive but hold and fire one at a range for a day and they grow on ya.
If they weren't so accurate, most would never give them another look

Left handers are not unique in the Swiss military but they all shoot right-handed.... think about it

Well I learned something new today, and found mine still had the paper mule deer spoke of..pretty cool!

That is pretty neat, it gives you a connection to the poor guy that had to tote that near 9 pound rifle up and down the Alps.

Here's a couple of links that help decipher some of the info on the tag.

http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/tags/
http://theswissriflesdotcommessageb...ions-amp-military-IDnumbers#.VQpN--H-XII

If I read it right your rifle's owner was Walter Schmid of Fuel Company 106 (kp = company, betrst = Betriebsstof which means fuel) He lived at #3 Waldegg Way in the town of Kloten.

I understand some of the Swiss rifle collectors contact the original owner, if he is still alive, although I'm not sure what all they'd say. "Hi, I have your rifle. If you want it back deposit xxx Swiss francs in a numbered account at..." .

Jim thanks for that link and info, deciphering that tag was going to be my next step. Not shown in my pic is the back side of the tag which has a serial number matching my rifle, so no doubt it is the original slip..
Again, I find this very interesting. Thanks for the knowledge MD!

Jim, i had 5 different K-31's about 5 years ago with one of them using the left hand op rod and the Swiss products peep sight. Phenomenal accuracy when you get these setup right. 168 grain sierras and reloader 15 will make it sing!!!!

Certifiable,

You're welcome!

My rifle was a late model, made in 1955, so the citizen it was issued to may still be around. His name was Jurg Aeschliman, from Bern, and was a member of an intelligence unit.

In my rifle the two most accurate loads came from data listed for older 7.5x55's, 49.0 grains of H4831 with the 165 Ballistic Tip, and 46.0 grains of IMR4350 and the 200-grain Speer Hot-Cor. The most accurate load listed for K31's is 54.0 grains of Norma MRP and the 150-grain Hornady Interlock.

A few years ago when we were at Epcot in Orlando, I struck up a conversation with a Swiss gentleman who was working at the German Biergarten. He asked me what I knew about Switzerland, which wasn't a whole lot, so I told him that I thought that the K31 was a great rifle. His eyes lit up and he told me the story of his K31, about being in the Swiss Army, and how committed every Swiss soldier was. About how Switzerland stood neutral through two World Wars because the Germans and Austro-Hungarians during WW1 and the Germans and Italians during WW2 decided that the cost of attacking Switzerland wouldn't be worth the cost. He was proud to be Swiss and it made me a little sad to think about the lack of pride so many Americans feel toward my Country.

Thanks for load information Mule Deer - GP11 ammo has been so accurate for me that I've been lazy on working up any loads for it. Even went to the trouble of removing the primers from the GP11 brass and getting berdan primers. Seems to be an issue with either primer hole depth, primer "thickness" or both because when I seat the primers they are considerably (I know this is scientific and helpful terminology) below the brass causing inconsistent ignition? I do have some boxer primed brass but being the person I am I hate to throw such good brass out (and I have a literal pile of it)! I really need to get a load with expanding bullets as I would like to hunt with it.

Great story 260Remguy....there is another often told story centered around this rifle on one of the Swiss forums (and I probably have it twisted a bit) but it is something about a Swiss General was asked by a visiting German military officer what would his 250,000 men do if the Germans invaded with 500,000 men? He thought for a moment and replied “Shoot twice.” They do seem proud of their country and this rifle (I would be proud of this rifle too if I were Swiss and I still am being Irish ).

PennDog

I bought 21(?) boxes of new Norma 7.5x55 brass from Tal35(?) a few years ago, so I have brass for life. Got a good deal on some PP factory ammo awhile back, $9 per 20, and have been shooting that on the once every year or two that old # 6401xx gets to the range.

The story that I heard was that before WW1, Kaiser Wilhelm was watching the Swiss Army on a field exercise and when he asked a crusty, old, Sergeant Major that question, the SGM gave the same answer. Being a SGM, he probably sprinkled his response with a little spicy language, but isn't that the norm for a senior NCO? Whatever the Swiss did, their threat of violence kept them out of both World Wars. They probably could have kicked the Austro-Hungarians and Italians collective butts, but the Germans don't play by the rules, so that might have been bad for all involved.

Yea that's it - love that story!

I do have some Norma and Graf & Sons brass (probably enough to do what I need for my time here) but I still hate to not use that GP11 brass - guess I need to just get over it

PennDog

When I first saw the cases I thought they looked pretty modern for a case design from 1911 (or 1889). Fairly straight body with a relatively short neck and a 30 degree shoulder. The rim diameter is an odd size at .498 but cases can be made from .284 Winchester brass.

I'm guessing that American shooters were so wed to the .473 head size that this one never got looked at seriously but seeing the case capacity which is better than the .308 or even comparable 57mm cases and the increased shoulder angle I'm a little surprised it wasn't latched on to by earlier wildcatters. It would make a nice short .25 caliber and you could easily keep the OAL down into the 2.8" range for short actions.

Here are five fresh ones ready to go. Those are Hornady 150 gr. Spire Points with the cannelure buried in the neck. Since these were part of my very first batch they were seated to the Hornady manual COL spec which actually leaves the ogives pretty close to the lands.

Cool looking cartridges!

Mike

I have always wondered why the U.S. didn't adopt the 7.65x53 as is, or as a 7.62x53, instead of the 30-40 USA, 30-03 USG, or 30-06 USG when the Ord Corps were looking for a replacement for the 45-70 Trapdoor Springfields.

I wish more rifles were that easy to convert for us lefty's.

Doc

Factory ammo and the cases I've resized with Lee dies have a lot more taper than the fired cases. I've been neck sizing mine with a Redding die for case life. My left handed friends with these rifles consider them to be about the least friendly rifle there is for left handed shooting. Not to bad until they try to use them in the rapid fire portion of CMP matches.

I have a friend who is both a US and Swiss citizen. He holds both passports and each year returns to Switzerland to shoot his military auto rifle in military and civilian matches (he keeps his military issue rifle at a relatives home). He has several K-31's, some with diopter sights and they are all very accurate. My K-31 with issue sights is good for 1.5-2.0" groups at 100 yards.

These rifles were built to commercial standards with tolerance and finish - all beautifully made.

There is a local dentist who is of Swiss heritage and has set up "Swiss Over-Seas" or "Swiss Abroad" matches at the local rifle range. Kinda fun when a bunch of old guys get together to shoot their Swiss rifles and handguns.

If you like the regular k31, they do/did make a sniper version. It is pretty slick.
You can buy through brownells, or could, as screw on, ho whole, base for a scope. I have one set up that way.
The bayonets are of extremely high quality particularly if you can find one of the engineers bayonets, like a big saw.
Solingen steel
They have paper cartridge guides, and the k11 is match quality.
Because of that i bought starline brass for reloading.
Also have the slings, muzzlecovers, and the cleaning kits are typically anal swiss.
If you have a black substance on the wood, that comes ffrom the cleaner/lubricant in the gun cleaning kit. They used it with a screen wire patch to clean the gun, but it get all over every thing.
The germans at one point bought a bunch of these, put scopes on them and sold them as sniper rifles in south america.
You do see the earlier 1900's vintage rifle around now and then, the predecessor to the k31. I have the long rifle and the calvary carbine.
I can get with the scope sub moa at 100yards.
And that cartridge was instrumental as i remember in development i think of the 30.06.

The Mojo sight arrived yesterday so I installed it last night and it was a chore to put it mildly. All you have to do is drive out the pin holding the original sight on, that was easy, and then push the pin back through the sight holder and Mojo - that was a royal pain! Those Swiss used some extra special kind of steel in the leaf spring under the sight, that's for sure. This is the third Mojo I've installed. The M24/47 and Swede 96 only needed thumb pressure to get the sight lined up but I had to use my biggest pair of channel lock pliers and a little jury rigged pusher to get the sight holes lined up on the K31 and get that pin back in.

But now that it's on it's a definite improvement in sight picture. I'm almost curious why the European armies never caught on to a peep sighted rifle, even when it's mounted out on the barrel. Could be they figured it would get plugged up with mud which is certainly likely.

The range is closed for a BPCR match this weekend but I can probably get out for a couple of hours in the late afternoon when they're done to try it out. Have used IMR4895, RE-15 and H4350 with the Hornady 150 Spire Point and so far it looks like RE-15 will be the way to go. It got right up to 2800 fps with the lowest ES of the three powders.

The more I play with this rifle the more I like it. Actually, the more I play with these old mil-surps the more I like them. As the saying goes, "they just don't make'em like that anymore". Even the Yugo, which is crude in comparison to the Swede 96 and Swiss K31, is a solid piece of steel and wood. Don't know why, but I get as much if not more pleasure whacking a 12" steel gong at 200 yards from the kneeling position with these than shooting tiny groups with a custom barreled, accurized and scope sighted modern rifle.


P.S. You can add an original Winchester 1895 .30-GOV'T-06 to that list of really fun to shoot rifles as well.

you do realize you are on the road to perdition, don't you, the .41 is bad enough, but mil-surp? The only country i think i have avoided are italian. Just for a little temptation, look for those german built mausers for the argintines. Either the 1895 or the 1909. Among the finest mausers ever built.
At roosevelt campfire outing some weeks ago, i think the hit of the weekend was a mosin. At a gong somewhere i think out about 300meters or so. And paladin ringing it pretty regularly with that surplus ammo.
as to the K31, at one time you could get basically new ones for about 69 bucks.

It is definitely a slippery slope. I went through a .41 Magnum phase all through the 90's and survived that, so I know I can quit at any time.

Mil-surp prices have jumped tremendously just over the last few years as the supplies run down. Shootable Swedes are running $400 minimum with good examples going much higher - I passed up several examples in excellent condition for $165 at a gunshow not five years ago. Genuine German K98's are commanding collector prices for original specimens. My father told me of traveling the roads in Germany and seeing pile after pile of them, each ten feet high where they were thrown by the surrendering Germans.

I remember the ads by Interarms of VA in the back of the American Rifleman offering throw away deer rifles. Carcano's and such so cheap, even in early 1960's dollars, that when you shoot your deer you just leave the rifle in the woods. Those days are long gone for sure. The latest flood of Mosin Nagants are probably among the last of the great untapped wells of really cheap surplus rifles.

Oh well, better to get in now since they'll only get more expensive.

NIH syndrome (Not Invented Here).

i do remember when the swedes first hit here, they were about 69bucks too.
Having J&G sales ten minutes from your house, and having friends there helps a lot too. Sort of.
it is coming to an end in the sense after the early 50's select fire weapons came into vogue. and those are not going to come in.
what has generally happened was the really good mil/surp hit first with lesser quality as the supply dries up.
ammo is the same way.
at one time i could get a mosin in good shape for about 49bucks, and 1200rounds of ammo for about 70bucks. The turkish mausers i think were at 39bucks and ammo about the same.

just to tempt you a little, i got to shoot one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt-Rubin#/media/File:Zfk55.JPG

I think the expression of envy here is "you suck!"

The K31 is very well made. I read that in around the late 1990s a person could still order a brand new K31 from the Hammerli factory for about $1200.

In 2002 I bought my K31 in near new condition from Big 5 Sporting Goods for $159. plus tax and fees. My rifle was made in 1951. There was no butt name-tag, unfortunately.

I ordered a case of Swiss surplus ammo (480 rounds)from AIM Inc. in Middletown, OH for $193 including shipping. At .40 per round that case cost me more than the rifle. The ammo is near-Match quality.

A friend of mine, a retired gunsmith, was recuperating from open heart surgery. He asked me for a gun project to work on at his own pace as he recovered.

I ordered a fancy black walnut stock blank from Great American Gunstock in Yuba City, CA, a Decelerator pad, an Acraglas kit, sling swivels, and a grip cap. I handed the rifle and everything over to my friend and said, "Make me a nice K31 Sporter. I have never seen one."

As the project came along, providing therapy and extra cash for needed prescriptions for my friend, he said a nice sporter should have a prettier bolt handle, and he asked if he could modify the ugly-but-functional finger-ring on the cocking-piece. I said yes, and put some thought into a replacement bolt handle knob. The barrel was cut and crowned behind the original front sight. The present barrel length is 25", and the twist rate as close as I can measure it is 1:10.5".

I have always preferred perfectly round bolt knobs, but this rifle needed something larger than the normal bolt-action rifle knob and something prettier than the factory two-finger pull-knob creation. I wound up ordering an authentic, black DC-3 throttle knob from Tradewinds Aircraft Supply in San Antonio, Texas.

Since my dusty logbooks show almost 700 hours in DC-3s a long time ago in a far away land, I knew that the throttle knob was the size I was seeking, and made a unique and meaningful feature for my personal K31.

The cocking-piece ring was filled with a shaped walnut plug that is even easier to use than the bare ring was. The straight-up ejection of the K31 requires an offset scope or a scout scope set-up. We made a scout-scope base that anchored into the rear sight base. A Tasco 2x30mm illuminated-reticule pistol scope works quite well and just clears the ejecting cases.

The final results are unique, and are about as attractive as a K31 can be made, I believe. No effort was made to lighten anything, and the stock measurements are on the large size with a thick wrist. With the scope the weight is right at 9 lbs, making the rifle pleasant to shoot, but less so to carry very far.

I have only shot the high-quality surplus ammo in the rifle and with the 2x scope I get consistent, round, 1" avg. five-shot groups at 100 yards. Half inch groups at 50 yards are easy. (If the curious spectators leave me alone long enough to shoot a group).

Here is what she looks like.

,

The DC-3 throttle knob turned out to be a good size to palm back and forth while working the straight-pull action. The round aircraft engine control knobs is where the aviation term "Balls to the wall" came from, meaning all knobs full forward to provide maximum emergency power and RPMs and full-rich mixture to help climb or accelerate out of trouble. With two engines on the DC-3, that was six knobs in the throttle quadrant, a large handful, going forward at once. Two more knobs down on the side controlled cowl flaps.



,

That really cool N250! The nicest sporterized Swiss I have seen to date.

PennDog

That is one cool sporter off of a rifle I wouldn't have thought of. Thanks for sharing. Makes me want one even more now.

Very nice!

nifty-two-fifty;
Good morning to you sir, hopefully this cool Good Friday has been that for you and yours.

Thanks so much for sharing the photos and story behind your unique K31 sporter with us. That is, as others have said, about as nice an example as I've laid eyes on.

My goodness though, the local gun show is coming up and now there's another possible project rifle on the list.

Thanks again sir and Happy Easter to you.

Dwayne

That is a really neat conversion and about as pretty as one can make that action look.

I want to ask if the bullets go faster by pushing that throttle forward harder...

Thank you, gentlemen.

For anyone unfamiliar with the K31, in the pictures the cocking piece is in the full-cocked position. To put the rifle on safe, the cocking piece is pulled back slightly further and turned 90 degrees. It is a rather awkward safety arrangement.

If I had thought of it I should have uncocked it so it didn't stick out so far, just to make it look a little more attractive in the pictures.

My friend also carved out a slip-in single-shot follower out of a scrap piece of nylon plastic that works well when shooting from the bench. This provides straight-line feeding into the chamber without the bullet touching anything on the way in.

The fired cases eject straight up and back behind the shooter, with the force controlled by the speed of the shooters hand cycling the bolt. With some practice, a K31 shooter can direct his fired brass into a properly positioned 5-gallon bucket for scrap brass. The excellent Swiss mil-surp cases are Berdan primed, so are not easily reloadable, unfortunately.

I heard about an old Swiss rifleman that would entertain onlookers by catching his fired brass in the crown of his felt fedora as he continued to shoot, acting as if he didn't notice.

Jim,

Almost. The last portion of forward travel causes the lugs to rotate into the locked position. If the bolt is closed too gently the rotation may be incomplete and the rifle won't fire, even though everything looks correct visually.

A smart rap on the back of the bolt knob with the heel of the hand acts exactly like the bolt assist on an M-16 in insuring that the bolt is fully locked and firing is assured.

The K31 action is designed very strong and intended to be operated quite forcefully. This is proper design philosophy for a combat arm intended for rugged use.

My throttle knob is epoxied on, so I think it is as strong as the rest of the mechanism.

As a kid, even though I didn't know what it meant, I always liked the expression, "Balls to the wall." I guess I thought it had a dirty connotation, or something. Shame on me.

I had 2 k31's sold one and kept the nicest one. both came with 3# triggers that are actually better than most worked over hunting rifle triggers. both guns would shoot 1 moa at 100 yards with my st marie graphics clamp on scope mount and weaver k6. gp11 surplus ammo. its kinda surprising these haven't went up more in value. I paid under 100 for them 10 or 11 years ago, but they aren't available that much anymore. then again back then yugo sks rifles were under $100 too.

that is a very well done rifle.
Cheapest by the way i think i ever paid, if not mentioned before, was about 69bucks.
Just so you know how bad it gets, at one time i had a vision of getting a k31 in every year they were made. My wife would have used one of them to shoot me probably.
Some of those yugo mausers you mentioned are pretty good deals. At first they were using surplus german K98 recievers, later their own. But the SKS and AK came in after the big war, so a lot of the mausers went into reserve. I think from memory about every seven years they were degunked from the cosmo as a test, then put back. Tearing some of them apart i have seen some that all parts are numbered to the gun. They would come with a leather ammo pouch, cleaning kit, bayonet, oiler and sling. Basically brand new rifles.
The earlier K31's had oak stocks as i remember, the later ones birch. You can steam the dents out, and refinish them with the right colors. I would have to look but rather than reforming brass from another caliber i think i got a couple of sacks from starline. I do have a friend that has saved the berdan primed brass with the idea of reloading it sometime

i should mention if you should see one of those engineers K31 bayonets around with the sawback at a reasonable price, grab it.
They are quite pricy these days.