Mule Deer wrote an excellent article about twist in the current "Sports Afield." One of his conclusions was that twists nowadays are faster. There is little danger of over stabilizing short bullets because bullets are more precise (mass is not off center) than in the past.

Years ago, I was taught or read that 110 grain bullets were not accurate in a 30-06 with its 1-10 twist, presumably because they were "over stabilized." The one load I worked up did not, IIRC, have this problem.

Can we conclude that with current bullets it is possible to achieve about the same accuracy with 110 grain bullets as with 150, 165, or 180 grain bullets? Does anyone shoot 110 grain bullets in 30-06 or .300 magnums?

IndyCA35;
Good evening to you sir, hopefully this finds you well.

Way back when in dinosaur times there used to be a Canadian firm that made ammunition for center fire rifles - CIL Industries Imperial line.

They made 110gr ammo for the .30-06 and somehow the initial box I shot up must have made a positive impression on me because when the company closed it's doors for good and sold off the components I bought "a whole lot" of those 110gr bullets.

If memory serves I loaded them in a .308 carbine, the same '06 and a .308 Norma. I'd have to look up the resulting velocities, but foggy memory seems to tell me that I couldn't get the 110gr bullets going any faster than say a 125gr Ballistic Tip or 130gr Speer HP.

I hunted coyotes a fair bit back in those days - early '90's this would be - and try as I might I could not get the 110gr load to hit stuff far away.

They'd group fine at 100yds but if we stretched it much at all misses were more common than hits. I went back to shooting 165gr Hornady BT in that particular .308 Norma and made a few hits on targets far enough away that neither I nor the witness will mention it today for fear of being branded stretchers of the truth.

Anyway I wish the medicine line wasn't in our way as I've likely still got a couple hundred of the 110gr Imperial bullets someplace.

I ended up shooting many of them with 8gr of 231 in that '06 for a grouse shooting/horse training load too now that I think of it.

Hopefully that was useful information for you or someone out there tonight sir. Good luck with your light .30 cal bullets whichever way you decide.

Dwayne

I spent a summer groundhog hunting with a Remington 721 .30-06 loaded with Sierra 110 hp's. It was a sub MOA combination.

I'd guess part of it could be attributed to lead core 110's being a 1/4 mile from the lands.

110 Vmax fly great from my 30/06's. They are as accurate as anything else I've tried through them.

The only high speed 110gr loads I've ever used were some Remington factory .308s I tried in my old 600. That was about 45 years ago and I didn't even have access to a range then.

Later, I loaded some 110gr Speer hollowpoints, the ones that look like a revolver bullet, over some 4759 to more or less turn my Ruger UL .308 into a .32/20. It would goup them into about 1 1/4", had a trajectory like a softball, and killed groundhogs and one fox like lightning. Have to get some more of those.

Indy. Years ago as newly wed I was broke as Job's turkey. I bought a western àuto Revelation 30-06 bolt for $90. ( it was a rebadged savage 110.). The crummy beech stock was warped and was pressing against the barrel so I hogged out the barrel channel with a wood rasp and used a couple l of shims cut from a cool whip container under the action to free float the barrel.

I got a bunch of 110 rn Hornady bullets for cheap and as is often the case that ugly looking son of a gun would print them in your thumb nail at 100 yds. This was before ebay and the ability to find replacement stocks for cheap so I eventually sold the rifle for about what I had in it but out of the dozens of rifles I have traded for over the years it has to be in the top 3-4 shooters. Go figure.

The Speer 130 gr HP is the cats meow in 30 cal varmint bullet

That is one heck of a varmint bullet. Accurate & effective on rock chucks. No doubt.

I still load some 110 grain Sierra HP's and run them through my .308 Win time to time. Accurate!

Guy

Lots of folks use those on pigs of all sizes here and swear by them in the 308 Win.

Back in the day, Dad had some 100gr varmit bullets out of his 1903 Springfield come apart before the reached the target. I suspect it was the combination of the thin jacket, poor balance, and being pushed hard.

I haven't heard about folks having these issues with modern bullets, but Nosler does recommend limiting the velocity on their SHOTS product line to 3800 fps.

While not 30 cal but along the same lines the most accurate load in my 270 wsm contains a 90 grain Sierra bullet. Also 125 BT is wonderfully accurate in my 308.

Ernie

I'd really like to try some 110gr TTSXs at around 3500fps out of a 30-06 on deer. I think it'd work quite well.

While not a current offering Federal loaded 30-06 ammo with a 110 grain Barnes Tipped Triple-Shock bullet to a MV of 3400 fps. That copper, plastic tipped bullet is long for its weight at about of 1.022 inches, but given its high MV it stabilizes well in anything with a 1 - 14 twist rate or faster. With a 1-10 twist rate it has an SG of 2.9 (1.4 is about the min you need) at sea level, but that's not considered excessive nowadays given the quality of modern bullets.

With a BC of 0.333 the load can be zeroed at 275 yards and be within 3 inches of aim point from the muzzle to 320 yards where it still has a velocity over 2470 fps. Maybe Federal was trying for a 30-06 varmint load.

Maybe for the small southern deer.

For your big Indiana deer it's just not a wise choice unless it's a perfect behind the shoulder shot at close range.

These discussions are remindful of the old days.....in the 1950s we couldn't afford more than one rifle so guys were always talking about using the '06 for varmints and questioning the 110 grain bullet (which had a horrible reputation).

Today almost all of us can afford a 22-250 in addition to our deer rifle.

When combined with their short bearing surface, and possibly a generous throat diameter, a long throat could throw a wrench in the works.

That said, a goodly jump to the lands by itself does not guarantee poor accuracy. I shoot good groups all the time with several 308's with bullets jumping nearly 1/8".

In a tight chamber, jumping may not be so bad. Look at Weatherby's that shoot very tight groups with long freebore. I'm working with a 26 Nos and it seems the more I jump some bullets, the better they shoot.

I just got a couple of boxes of Barnes 110 gr. TAC-XT for the .300 Whisper. I may try some in my .308 to see what they'll do.

DF

You realize I'm talking about Barnes bullets right? I can't imagine any deer in Indiana being big enough that an all-copper bullet of 110gr wouldn't work on. If the rule change goes through and they allow rifles this year and I can get some to shoot less than 2" groups I plan on testing my 'theory'.

I think light, fast monometals will work on WT. I've blown big holes thru WT's and hogs with 120 gr. E-Tips out of a 26 Nos. at 3,450 fps.

I don't see a .30 cal 110 at warp speed doing other than the same thing. The drawback with the 110 gr. .30 cal. is low B.C.'s. But that't not an issue within normal WT kill ranges.

DF

I can't comment at all about the magnum options, but, over the past few years, I've experimented quite a bit with lighter .30 options, including 110 gr TSX, initially for my oldest son's '06 and then for one my dad picked up. A couple shot so well, I started shooting them in a couple of my rifles; '06 and .308. My son's is a Higgins Mod 50 FN, passed down from his great grandfather. I got some data on low recoil rounds because he wanted to hunt with it, instead of a .243 I had intended him to begin his career with. Now that's he's 16 and over 6' tall, the recoil is no longer a concern, but the light bullets are still taking deer and hogs. In my dad's case, shoulder surgery drastically changed his recoil tolerance, but he still wanted to use his '06 from time to time. We tried some of my son's light recoiling loads in dad's rifle and they shot near enough well for his hunting ranges. So I got more mileage out of that round of load development, after all. Dad's rifle is an old Revelation/Mossberg, refinished, bedded, and floated. Mine that have seen the light bullets are a bedded/floated custom stocked Vanguard '06, a custom Springfield, and a floated Ruger 77 .308. Point being, the age and type of rifle doesn't seem to matter much for consistency. None of them shot "patterns" and I was able to find a charge that each of them liked without too much work or time. The largest group from all of them I have recorded in my log was 2.73" and it was with the same powder, heavier charge, that shot the smallest group for the same bullet (a 125 Barnes).

Shots on game have been from 30 yds+- out to just shy of 120 yds. I can't comment on longer range accuracy, but out to the 100-120 area, the following numbers are group averages taken from a minimum of five 3-shot 100 yd groups with the best powder option I found for each bullet, all recorded groups shot by me, not my son or dad.

110 Barnes TSX (no game taken):

FN - .82"
Mossberg - 1.31"
Vanguard - .34"
Springfield - not tried
Ruger .308 - .49"

125 Barnes X (1 hog taken):

FN - .63"
Mossberg - not tried
Vanguard - .28"
Springfield - .33"
Ruger .308 - .41"

125 Sierra Flat Base (2 deer, 1 hog taken):

FN - .57"
Mossberg - 1.1"
Vanguard - .68"
Springfield - .59"
Ruger .308 - .78"

130 Hornady SP (1 deer, 3 hogs taken):

FN - .68"
Mossberg - .97"
Vanguard - .24"
Springfield - .39"
Ruger .308 - .30"

All of that leads me to conclude that the smaller bullets are just fine in .30 cal, albeit with the sacrifice in the almighty BC. My dad is shooting the 125 Sierra over 4198. Personally, I ended up settling on the Horn 130 over 4064 as my overall choice for a range bullet and deer bullet, but I like to shoot a lot and at 100/box, it's easier on my family-constrained wallet than the Barnes 110 at 50/box. That is all that made the difference in my decision.

Best -
Andy

I know what 130 gr. .30-06 bullets will do at the range and on WT's. Here's a link to a Husky '06 project.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8948791/1

DF

Interesting idea.

I wouldn't do it myself, simply because I already have the .270 with 130 grain bullets, but shooting is all about experimenting and I'd be interested to see how yours turns out.

I shoot 120 gr Ttsx's out of a 7mm rem mag & 100 gr TTSX's out of a 6.5x47 L at deer. The only one that didn't give complete penetration was the 6.5x47 on a doe that was facing me, the bullet stopped about halfway through lengthwise & made a big mess inside. I can't imagine a 110 gr 30 cal TTSX even flinching on a whitetail of any size.

I can't imagine it not working either. I'm not worried about the BC as the property is not set up for long shots.

The Barnes 130TSX out of a mild 30-06 have worked to perfection for me in the past. The tipped version will be more better.

I can imagine it not working on big deer, but if you keep it to the 100 pounders it should be just fine.

You want a good BC and good SD--not just for long range retention of velocity and energy but for penetration as well.

Why?

Mono-metals are a whole different ball game compared to C&C's.

DF

Insufficient penetration due to light weight and inadequate sectional density.

Might be ok on the perfect behind the shoulder shot on a smaller deer, but it's just not a wise choice for general use.

As I said before, though, I applaud the experiment and I hope the results are better than I would expect.

In 2013 season I shot a 200 lb (Dressed) doe with a 53 grain TSX.

It made a 3 inch diameter hole through both shoulders and exited. She ran 100 feet or so and tipped over dead with a train wreck in her chest with the remnants of the heart loose in the chest. I shot a second deer that year with the 53 grain TSX and had virtually identical results from the other side of a 150 lb deer. and I started that bullet 300 FPS slower.

I have shot a bunch of them with .243s and light .270 and 30-06 TSX/TTSX bullets. All told, between myself and the people I load for we've killed 80 odd deer with Barnes bullets. We have recovered exactly one. All the rest were pass throughs. That single captured bullet was a 130 grain 30 caliber running about 3150 FPS and was a corner to corner shot on a good sized buck.

They not only go through meat, they go through bone without showing much difference that I can see. I put a 110 grain .270 bullet through both shoulder blades, a total of six ribs edgewise, and the spine. For all I know it's still going because it went right on through. Bambi however is not still going. Bambi was on the ground dead before the sound of the shot got there.

That's the same one that the army uses as an anti-tank round, right?

I didn't even know they were available to us hunters.

Dances, to which poster were you replying you could see it not working with big deer?

Personally I wouldn't use a 110g Vmax out of a 308 on really big deer ideally, but I wouldn't baulk at a 130 Barnes X Bullet.

The low effort path of instant gratification of small groups for me at 100 yards is with wimpy loads and fast powder:
35 gr Vmax in 223
65 gr Vmax in 243
72 gr Vmax in 257
110 gr Vmax in 308

They may make tiny groups, but are not very useful.
Those light bullets have the ballistics of a ping pong ball.
At 500 yards, heavier boat tailed bullets work better.

Dang, who knew?

I had an overload in a Weatherby one time with 78 grains of 7828ssc that required breaking down. Not wanting to dump it all out and start over, I just put a 110 Sierra round nose carbine bullet. Two five shot/100 yard groups at an inch and inch and a quarter. Round holes in paper and a grey puff of dust behind. No idea on the speed though.

Have always wanted to try that on a squirrel!

That statement raises a red flag as in you haven't tried them on WT's.

DF

The World Record 5 shot group at 100 yards was shot with a 30cal and I believe it was a 110 or 112 grain bullet. The 5 shot group size was .008.

This is Mike's equipment list

Receiver: Kelbly Panda
Barrel: 17 twist Kreiger
Stock: Larson (including action bedding)
Scope: Leupold 45X Competition in Kelby Single Screw Tall Rings
Brass: Lapua (Base case is 6.5 Grendel)
Bullets: Randy Robinett (BIB) 30 Cal. 114gr, 10 Ogive (secondary bullet; primary is 112gr BIB)
Powder: H4198 – Stout Load with 2980 FPS Velocity
Front Rest: Farley Coaxial
Bags: Micro Fiber
Flags: Graham Wind Flags (large)

It is kinda like a 30PPC

1:17 twist?

Gentle.

Bullet construction is far more important than sectional density in regards to penetration. A 110 grain TTSX 30 cal would penetration significantly farther than an A-Max

Some BR folks shoot 18 twist with the short bullets.

DF...dont waste your time on replying to DWG...hes trolling.

Thanks, Poobah.

You never know, live and learn...

DF

Interesting.

It's said (a bunch here on the Fire) that you can't over spin a bullet with fast twist. For hunting applications, probably a true statement.

For fine, cutting edge precision, I guess some would not agree with that statement. Looks like they're custom twisting those tubes for light, short, very precise bullets.

DF

Larry Root again or one of the others?

My Grandson's Mod 7 is in 30BR and it is a 16 twist and he uses 125 grain bullets. He has killed several deer, hogs, and 1 coyote. Only time it took 2 shots was the coyote. It is a very accurate rifle and he is a very patient hunter.

I got some 130 gr. Ralph Council bullets for my '06 Husky, mostly because the gun is very light and I was looking to reduce recoil. The results were surprising. I've used the 130 gr. Hornady on WT's and performance was perfect. Ralph said his bullets are good on game, just haven't killed anything with them, yet.

DF

I got some 110 gr. TAC-TX's for my .300 Whisper.

I just loaded some for my .308. We'll see how they perform at 3,300 fps. They were made to operate at around 2,200 fps in the Whisper. Being monometal, they shouldn't blow up.

DF

I have tried them in the past just for fun in 30/06 308 and 30/30. All seemed pretty good...

I have sent a lot of 110 grain bullets down range using the Blue Dot load from Rocky's old site in 06 and 308Win. They group on paper at 100yds very well. Some better than any of my bigger loads. Bullets range from 110 carbine RN from Sierra, A Max, Sierra HP and plain old cast lead. Some group better than others obviously. Mouse fart could be used to describe how they recoil compared to the bigger loads. No game experience with them but I can imagine any varmint having a bad day with one. As for 110 in deer I can see no reason why a 250 savage or 257 roberts working with the same weight bullet would be any different than a well constructed 110gr in a 308 at similar speed.
I would like to find some time and stretch the range out on the paper with the 110s. Maybe this summer.

Haven't used 110's in the .308 or '06, but know first hand how effective 130's are at the range and on WT's.

If a 130 blows thru a WT, then one doesn't really need 150 or heavier to effectively kill deer.

DF

Since I loaded up some 110 grain RN/Soft Points in the 06 of a friend's wife... behind like 25 grains of SR 4759...

each season she has been smacking a blacktail somewhere on their property, right off the front porch, usually when she sees one grazing out her window while washing the dishes or doing the laundry....

then she calls her hubby and tells him to come home early if he can... he's got a deer to gut out in the yard...

been doing the same thing with SR 4759 and even Unique for kids out of grandpa's old 30/30.... they work just fine in those also...

kids really like them when loaded with Unique...