No not ballistic silver tips but the old style Winchester Silvertip.

Looking for the BC of 140gr .277 Silvertip.
I know it was listed in the software library of the older Oehler chronographs.
Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan

I used a 130 grain S/T I didn't know they made a 140 grain bullet.

They would blow big holes in deer.

.455

Winchester never marketed a 140 gr 270 Silvertip. I have shot several thousands of their 130 gr Silvertips, and used them to kill everything from gophers to grizzly bears, including the second largest moose I ever got.

Burned up a lot of the old surplus H4831 behind that bullet.
Ted

Interesting. I wonder where the 1000 Winchester 270 140gr SilverTips sitting on my shelf came from?

Actually, Winchester loaded this bullet in their premium ammo line for a few years in the early 90's IIRC. And no, they are NOT Ballistic SilverTips.

SouthTexas you are correct, I remember them.

Thanks southtexas! Do you have the Oehler data?

I could of sworn the BC was much higher, like closer to .480's. But that's why I asked, wanted to be sure.

They are equally as accurate as any .277 bullet I've ever shot.

Again thank you Sir,
Dan

DSM:

that number came from my old Oehler Ballistic Explorer software , under Winchester 270 ammunition. They do LOOK like the BC should be higher.

I got a really good deal on a bunch of these bullets 10-12 years ago. Have used them on deer in several 270WCFs and one 270WSM, with very satisfactory results.

Was really surprised to learn that Winchester never offered this bullet.

I betcha you got yours at the same place I got mine!
Feller was selling them 300 at a wack.
Word got out at the old ShortMags website, and the bidding wars ensued, actually kinda got out of hand!

Someone mention back then that these bullets were intended for the European market, I don't know the validity of that but made sense since I never seen them offered in loaded ammo or components here in the states.

I never liked them , they just didn't kill like the Winchester Power Points

The silver tip and corelokts have probably taken more game than any other bullets ever made and continue to do so. powdr

Don't know about components, but they were offered in loaded ammo...although for a fairly short time, it seems.

I just got a free upgrade of Ballistic Explorer two weeks ago and have been playing with it. The 140 gr .277 Silvertip is still listed in the ammo database. As you can see in the image the bullet has a BC of 0.455.

The new version of Ballistic Explorer automatically estimates bullet lengths for factory ammo with a claim of being within 1/3 caliber 92% of the time. The estimated length is 1.199 inches and being you have these bullets it would be interesting if you measure the length of one and post it so we can see just how close it is.

1.255"

Thanks for the feedback. So the bullet length estimator is off by just 0.056 inches which is less than 1/4 caliber. That's the kind of accuracy I've been finding in my tests. The reason I'm interested is more and more ammo is being loaded with solid copper, plastic tip, high BC bullets, all features that increase the length for a given weight. When considering some new wonder ammo I like to check what twist rate is needed to stabilize the bullet and to do that I need the bullet length. Even if the ammo is not in the database I can still use the estimator manually to get a good idea.

What did you do to get a free upgrade?

Was it a significant improvement?

Thx.

If you have Ballistic Explorer 6.x.x just open the Help menu and select Web update. It opens a webpage in your browser that lets you know if there's a newer version along with links to what's new and where to download the setup file. I've been getting free upgrades for about 10 years. Here's a link to the their What's New page.

got it thank you!

my brother killed a many a deer with the 170gr silvertip in a 30-30

I think at least two versions of the Silvertip are being confused. The "old school" Silvertip could be a decent bullet--if the jacket was heavy enough, but that apparently depended on what Winchester decided to do that decade. I have seen them expand perfectly on bigger game at relatively high velocities, and come apart on small big game at moderate velocities.

The "Silvertip Supreme" was the boattailed bullet Winchester introduced in the early 1990's, and was generally a POS because it had such a thin jacket, so came apart regularly and failed to penetrate. It was replaced in a pretty short time by the Failsafe, which at the time may have been the best all-around super-penetrating "petal" type bullet on the market, since it was normally more accurate than the Barnes X-Bullets of the era.

Winchester got really serious when they designed the Failsafe because they didn't want another Silvertip Supreme out there. Among other people, Finn Aagaard told them bluntly the Supreme really sucked after only shooting a few small Texas whitetails with it. It may have been the shortest-lived factory "big game" bullets ever.

Thanks for clearing that up, John. As I posted earlier, Winchester never made a 140 gr Silvertip.

While I never loaded it, I "heard" that the Silvertip Supreme was indeed a very poor bullet on game. My experience was that the regular 130 gr ST with the heavy jacket was performing so well, that I never looked beyond that.

Ted

Winchester DID make a 140gr 277 SilverTip, as MD said in the early 90's. I got a good deal on a a large supply years ago, and have taken a lot of deer with them.

Did you not see the evidence from Oehler's software? Would you like me to send you one?

Yes, I would like to see one.

Every Silvertip bullet I have ever seen, 270, 308, 303, 338, 358, and 375, had the bullet point covered in bright metal of some kind, usually aluminum, not exposed lead. My understanding is that that is where their name originated.

Are the ones you have exposed lead or metal covered?

Thanks,
Ted

Yukoner,

As I recall, the only Silvertip Supreme .270 bullet Winchester made was a 140-grain, apparently as a compromise between 130 and 150. Plus, some other companies were making 140 .270's by then, which were proving fairly popular, probably because rifle loonies are always looking to plug any perceived "gap," no matter how small.

And when they discontinued the Silvertip Supreme, it was replaced by the 140-grain Fail Safe.

Thanks John.

Did the 140 gr Supreme have an aluminum tip? If so, that's what southtexas must have.

Ted

I've tanked a couple of bull elk with the Winchester Failsafe .284" 140-grain bullets. Man, they died fast.

It wasn't long after they started making them and both Al Corzine and Glenn Weeks recommended them ... superb elk bullet, for sure.

Steve

yukoner,

Yeah, they pretty much looked like the "old school" Silvertips, except for the boattail.

When people say "old school"

Correct, they have the silver metal covering over the tip, and a boat tail. And the tip is a little more pointed than their old 130gr Silvertip flat base bullet

Yeah, they wanted to increase BC over the original version.

Those look cool, I bet those 150's would be a bit messy on game though......

Shot my first moose with the 220 gr Sivertip in a 30-06 around 1990 or so, it worked but I did have a jacket and core separation so started handloading and used the 180 gr Speer G.S. with good success after that. Shot a bear as well with the 220's and another with the 180 gr version and they seemed to work fine.

Yes, this is the reason success/failure has been and IS mentioned even in this thread. I've used the 'old school' ST with good success. Others not so much.

Here are some old school 30 cal 150 ST my son bought from Midway several years ago. Because of the uncertainty of performance I've not loaded any yet. I need to test these and get some idea IF I want to shoot deer with them or not.

I have a boat load of older silver tips but since I have never owned anything in .277 caliber, I have none of those. I have had good luck with them across the board. I have mostly used them in 30-30, 30-06 and 300 H&H. The 180 grain Silvertip did a great job on elk. No complaints with either weight in the 30-30.

My dad had a box of Remington Bronze points in .270. If there was ever a worse bullet for elk hunting in that caliber, I haven't seen it! Very messy!

my wife got her first black bear with a 300 hh and 220 grains. first and last we use it ... core separation too ...

I'm sure the extra speed of the 300 H&H did it no favours.....

dennis,

I had a 150-grain Silvertip from a .30-06 factory load come apart and fail to penetrate beyond the shoulder of a forkhorn mule deer at 200 yards. Found what was left of the flattened jacket against the ribs on the same side after I tracked him down and put another through the ribs--which exited. That was in the mid-1980's.

Could give other examples of both good and bad performance from original ST's, the reason I gave up on 'em. Some batches worked well, but others didn't--and it was hard to figure what would be the result.

I shot my first deer with a 300H&H and original 180gr. Silvertips, forkhorn whitetail at most 50 yds broadside. It ran a couple hundred yds, I found it down with its head up so shot it at the base of the ear. Nearly blew its head apart but the bullet never exited, head was like a bag of crunchy bone soup with eyeballs popped out of the sockets, drooping cockeyed antlers. First shot in the shoulder blew up just under the hide, with only bits and pieces of shrapnel penetrating into the heart/lungs. My girlfriends dad was showing me how to gut it and kept looking at the wound, couldn't believe how a gun/cartridge that big didn't go threw a deer, his 30-30 nearly always went clean thru.

Okay, got it! I stand corrected, and appreciate learning something new today.

Have you tried them on game at all?
Ted

I have heard that but the few animals I have shot with them have been perfect kills. I have quite a few old rounds from the 70s and 80s. Seemed like a good idea to hang onto them!

Ted: I've taken quite a few deer with them, without issues. All from 270WCFs at 2800-2900 fps. So they were not pushed too hard.

Shot a few hogs with them from a 270WSM. Hogs usually ran and that was fine with me...the only good hog is...

My conclusion is that they are about like any CnC bullet (at least this batch). My stash is down to a little over 100. Probably won't try to buy any more.

I bought a big box o' bullets, about 500 of them, back in the mid to late 80's that were 180 grain .30 cal. Win. Silvertips. I used those for quite a number of years in my .30-06 and shot a handful of elk with them. I never had a failure and never had reason to complain about their performance. I also have a box or two of .30 cal Win. Silvertips that are 150gr that I've never used. I don't think I'd be afraid to shoot a deer with them out of the -06. I might think twice about putting them in a .300 mag case, though.

I don't mean to be contrary to anyone on this thread about the reliability of the silvertip bullets since I'm sure many have much more experience than I do. However, I seem to recall JOC shooting quite a few animals (deer, sheep, etc.) with 130gr. Silvertips out of his .270s. I do think he mentioned that bullet performance was not always perfect, but he killed (and recovered) quite a number of animals with that combination.

As noted in one of my earlier posts, I suspect jacket thickness varied some over the years. I have a friend with a small box full of 130-grain Silvertips from dead elk he and his dad have killed over the years with various .270 Winchesters, all perfectly mushroomed with jacket and core intact. His father bought 1000 of 'em when my friend was in high school (he's in his 50's now) and apparently that batch was very good.

On the other hand, my late friend Walter White killed a brown bear on Kodiak Island in 1954 that's one of the few listed in B&C with a skull measuring over 30 inches, using a pre-'64 .375 H&H with factory 300-grain Silvertips. The bear was wet from crossing the Zachar River and Walter was shooting across the river. He didn't know exactly how many shots he fired but did remember reloading the rifle's magazine twice. The bear would snarl and bite at where the bullets hit, and sometimes even fall, but kept getting up again. When he and his guide skinned it they found most of the bullets had broken up on the wet hair, with most barely getting through the skin. He swore off Silvertips forever.

There is nothing guaranteeing that any cup-and-core bullet will always act the same, especially when produced over several decades in widely varying calibers and weights.

Mule Deer, Do you (or anyone else) have any experience on game with these 170 grain "old school" Silvertips? A friend gave me these a few years back and I loaded them up for my 30-30. I'd like to use them on whitetails. Thanks.

Going with what John said, the one and only deer I ever shot w/a factory round was a large Texas spike buck w/a 100gr ST in 250-3000 at about 75yds in about 1973. The bullet went in behind the shoulder and went clean thru. I thought this odd as I expected it to expand more and stay inside. It killed the deer and I found him after a short trailing job but it was a good first lesson in bullet performance. powdr

River Ridge,

Velocity in the .30-30 is so low it's rare to have 170-grain bullets expand too much.

What I recall is that the older more rounded silver tips had a tin cap and fairly thick tapered jacket. The double cannelure acted like a Hornady inter lock. These had a good reputation.

Then they started using a thinner jacket and an aluminum cap. These were the ones that had the erratic performance. The aluminum didn't have the ductility of the previous alloy.

The old 300 gr. .375s had a good reputation in Africa and some would even remove the cap and use it on Leopard. Then Winchester changed them or ruined them and this is part of why some said the .375 wasn't suitable for dangerous game.

River, I have quite a few bx.s of factory .30-30 150 grain Silvertips, and have shot antelope and deer with them with no problem..
Also have some .300 savages loaded with the 150 ST.. Haven't shot any game with them yet..
I bought a bunch of .30 cal. 150's I shot one antelope with them out of a .300 H & H.. Did a good job..
I also shot some antelope with 300 grain in my .375.. Of course they worked..
I would like to find some for my .270, as others mentioned JOC used that bullet quite a bit..
One of the old time guides I knew from this area, also guided quite a bit in Alaska.. He told me he often used his .270 with 130 Silvertips on Brown bear and Polar bear.. Years ago, he had a couple huge bears in a local store he had killed with his .270 .. One Polar and one Brown..

You used one on a gopher? Was it a bang flop? Or, did it run off , and if it did , how was the blood trail?

About the only thing I ever shot with a Winchester Silver Tip, was a Newfoundland Moose back in 1972- As I recall the bullet broke up some, but there was no internet to tell me that that sort of thing sucks, and me my uncle and the local guide we hired had a good bit of work to get the thing out of the place it decided to die in! 180 gr bullet in a 300 Weatherby! Come to think about it, for the rest of that hunt, I got another shot, because my uncles rifle when off zero, shot that one with my second rifle 7mm RM that I took for a spare- 175 gr NP performed like well a NP performs! I stopped skimping on bullets for hunting big game after that! It was the last time I hunted or even shot that 300 WM and it stay in my gun safe for 36 years before I sold it!

Tejano - I have a ? and NOT to doubt or dispute you.

Do you remember WHICH older ST had a more 'rounded' tip?

My experience with STs goes back to the 80s and NONE of the new stuff. All I have used and have currently are not rounded. I don't remember STs in round nose bullets because I have not used hardly any round nose ammo/bullets.


These are typical of any STs I've used/seen.

There are two different designs of Silvertips. I have read all the post and did not see anyone mention the difference. Early Silvertips were manufacture till @1955. These had an actual silver appearance, I believe it was nickel silver. It was considerably harder than the aluminum caps that appeared after that date. The second difference is the older silvertips had the cap extend all the way to the base of the bullet. With the newer aluminum capped bullets, the cap barely extends past the point the copper jacket meets the cap. I believe but do not know, these different bullets designs account for many of the differing results. The International Ammunition Collectors Association web site should have photos of the sectioned bullets.

s-z -

Interesting. Haven't seen those 'old' STs.
Thnx

Jwall

The ones I was referring to with a rounder meplat, not a true round nose, are the style you have as opposed to the pointier boat tail extended range style which is definitely the aluminum tip.

They did come in a round nose style for 30-30, .348 and maybe some others.

The 358 and 375 cal Silvertips were the semi-roundnose you are speaking about. Used them both, as well as the 270s.

Ted

THNX Tejano !

jwall. I believe the 150 gr 30 calibre,that you have shown were for the 300 H&H magnum. I spoke with Ed Matunus on the telephone years ago (He worked for both Remington and Winchester at one time or other), and I believe he said that the 150s with the extra ring were for. the 300 . For the 180s Im not sure. I have used the 180s on a moose, 3 shots recovered one, which looked like a perfect mushroom and was 71% of the original 180.

I had a 180 in a factory loaded 06 flatten out like a 50cent piece on the shoulder of a big hog. Cousins killed him a while later an upon skinning found a big metal disc with a 30 caliber nipple on the base nestled in a growth up against the shoulder blade. I wasn't the only one to shoot that big rascal and lose him though. He had 3 22 bullets in one hindquarter, a broad head in his brisket, and a 224 fmj in the other ham.

Funny thing was, and others here's accounts match mine, is that earlier that week I'd shot the same bullet in the same load from the same rifle lengthwise through the biggest buck I ever shot. It entered alongside his butthole and exited the base of his neck. I thought they must have been the finest bullet ever created until 6 days later when I shot the hog.