What's the likelihood that we'll see lead-free bullets designed to shed weight? I don't just mean losing a petal or two, but something like the lead-free barnes and nosler varmint bullets that have a core of copper fragments, but designed for medium to large game with the fragments in the front third to half. They would probably be expensive and difficult to manufacture, but I don't know anyone who punches paper or steel with barnes anyway.

I'd assume anything is possible. I've yet to have a problem killing anything with ones that don't 'fragment'.


Bone is your friend.

I agree it's absolutely possible, no assumption required, was just curious if any of the gunwriters had any advance/inside info that such a design was being considered. For what it's worth, everything I've shot with a barnes has died within a few feet, and a few seconds.

With that type of result - what's the advantage to changing them then?

CEBs are designed to lose all four petals, but I don't see an advantage to that. I have killed a lot of deer with TSX/TTSX E-tips/GMXs and none of them have given me any concern whatsoever after they hit meat. IMO they all work better than any comparable cup and core bullet in terms of consistency, their ability to work at point blank range and still function perfectly at moderate range. Once you get to 400 yards, I do not trust them to have a good margin for error. They are out at the limits of where they will expand well depending on the bullet and load.

I suppose it would be a pretty simple thing to put maybe half a dozen segments of copper rod/wire into a jacket that would rupture on impact and release them, but why? It would seem to be next to impossible to better the wound channel of a well expanded (mushroomed) bullet that stays intact and cavitates all the way through.

I guess that you could probably create a big enough "hole" that it rivals what happens to small varmints with fast cup and core bullets. You can virtually disintegrate them. But for something you intend to eat What's the good in that? For varmints we won't be eating, we already have bullets to do that. You can make an impressive hole in a coyote with a 243 and a 58 grain VMax at close range.

I shot four deer with Barnes T-EZ bullets last fall, all inside fifty yards. They all hit the ground where they stood and that was it. All through the shoulders. Wrecked more meat than was necessary. Nasty holes in the deer. All the way through. Pretty fair approximation of overkill. One doe ~150 lbs, two fawns <100 Lbs and one fawn ~110 lbs.

I'm not a gun writer but Cutting Edge Bullets already have this technology in the Copper Raptor and their ESP Raptor.

I have only shot 1 coyote and 1 whitetail doe with the 55 ESP Raptor at 3900 out of a 6-284 but both were DRT.

I believe Mule Deer has used them?

Remington tried that technology 20 years ago with their Copper Solid shotgun slugs.

And?

I have been shooting "petal" type bullets, and watching companions do the same, into big game since the first Barnes X-Bullets appeared in the late 1980's. The others have included Winchester Fail Safes, Nosler E-Tips, Hornady GMX's and Cutting Edge Raptors.

When Randy Brooks first started making X-Bullets he didn't really care of they retained their petals, as long as they penetrated sufficiently. But by then some hunters had been convinced (partly by Bob Hagel's book) that the more weight retained by expanded bullets the better they killed. So he kept tweaking the X's until they retained all their petals. Usually, anyway.

The only difference I've seen in such bullets is that those that retain their petals occasionally don't kill very quickly. As a result, I'd prefer bullets that lose their petals, especially on deer-sized game.

But there are a bunch of people out there who think 100% weight retention is The Only Answer, apparently because there are a bunch of people out there looking for The Only Answer.

Isn't there a European one where the petals are designed to break off? Privi or something like that.

I would assume that we will indeed see a fragmenting core non-toxic bullet.

Make the back half a solid, and the front end a large cupful of fragmenting copper. Pretty much a Partition-like bullet with no lead in it.

Thats not due to barnes alone, thats due to shot placement.

And I shoot barnes almost exclusively on game.

I've found Barnes to kill well, well beyond 400 in a 338 win mag 225s... out just past 800. To much is put into this instant kill stuff, put a hole in vitals and 99.9% of the time stuff dies.

Well said.

Why have a mono that fragments anyway when we have so many C&C bullets that do exactly that already?

If it's extra penetration after fragmentation that the OP is looking for,we've had that design around for over 60 years. They call it a Nosler Partition.

In most of Europe almost all hunting is done on private land, and the game belongs to the landowner, who can legally sell the meat. The agreement between hunter and landowner varies, but if the hunter wants the meat they pay extra for it.

The meat is a marketable commodity, so they don't "shoot for bone." The same applies to cull shooting in Africa. In fact in most of the world game meat is sold like beef or pork. Whether this is better or worse than the North American system is arguable, but that's beside the present point.

In general, if the animal makes it over the land's boundary before it falls, the animal belongs to the other landowner. In much of Europe, parcels of huntable land are often small, so hunters want a bullet that kills quickly, so the animal doesn't leave the land they're hunting, but they also don't want to shoot shoulders, because that reduces the amount of meat that can be sold--and hunting is expensive over there, just as it's becoming in most of the U.S. where there's far more private than public land.

Consequently, European ammo makers do a lot of research on what bullets kill quickest, including shooting LOTS of actual wild animals. And on properly managed land there are a lot of animals that need to be taken, just as there are on many properties in the southern U.S., or in Africa. I'm not talking a few dozen or even 100 animals. One well-known European firm shot over 500 animals one fall testing a new bullet to see how it killed with typical lung shots, compared to other bullets they'd previously tested on similar numbers of animals.

The bullets they've found to kill quickest are bullets that partially fragment. That is what every European ammo and bullet maker has found after shooting far more animals in one season than most American hunters will ever shoot in a lifetime.

But of course they're wrong, in every possible way.

If you can't figure out how to kill something with a Barnes, and quickly, you might want to stick with golf.

The most impressive killer of deer bullet/caliber-wise, has been my 257 Weatherby with good old Hornady 100gr Spire Points going full zone five afterburner. Over 80 deer I'm guessing and an equal number of hogs, and NOT ONE has taken a step. There is almost never an exit hole BTW and yes shoulder meat is toast, but who cares.

They did! And IME those worked VERY well.

GS-Custom HV, out of South Africa IIRC.

Brenneke TAG



Jaguar Classic



SAX KJG

This.

Like JB also said, everyone is out looking for miracle bullets and the infamous DRT with lung shots....no bullet guarantees that every time. Not sure where it came from.

The Innanet I think.

If you can't figure out how to kill something with virtually any bullet made in every cartridge made, you might want find something even easier than golf, because this stuff (killing shid) is probably easier than golf.
There is a lot to be said for searching for the bullet that serves your particular purpose the best. My purpose in hunting is to garner some good meat, so I don't intentionally blow up large muscle groups on animals. I could just as easily say that if someone too inept to find an animal that has been shot through the lungs and ran a few yards, they should stick with something less strenuous than hunting.

As mentioned, the Barnes do kill well, but I have to admit I've had some results at times I didn't care for. IE when bone wasn't hit, the wounds can sometimes appear FMJish and game traveled quite a ways. If I was forced to go lead free, I personally wouldn't mind something of a TBBCish design with an explosive front end similar to some of the lead free varmint pills on the market.

What results in a DRT kill today may well result in a tracking job tomorrow while using the exact same bullet placement with the same projectile on an identical animal.

Thanks for all the responses guys. For the record I'm not looking/needing/wanting something better... my curiosity was piqued when I saw these non-toxic varmint bullets.

And Royce is right, if you're looking for something easier than shooting/hunting, golf ain't it.

Nosler partition......almost 70 years of kicking ass.

True but I get the idea for creating a lead-free equivalent.

Lehigh Defense has developed a fragmenting mono that is CNC machined from solid copper or brass (Controlled Chaos bullet). A hunting buddy has been shooting hogs with his 300 BLK using the 110gr Controlled Chaos with good success.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets

A friendly observation, that's all.

IMO the OP asked (axed) about 'lead free' fragmenting bullets.

As much as I respect Nos Part, they're not lead free.

I sincerely hope we ALL are not required to go lead free.

Some or a few people think N Ps are failures. I'm not one of them. Since they perform exactly as designed and advertised HOW can they be called failures??

I also know FREAK things happen occasionally even with N Ps.

That is just darned cool! That picture would be hung above my mantle!

I think nowadays there are plenty of good mono's out there. I think I would increase the twist a little to get some more bullet action on the outer limits, but the few I have used worked okay..

One would think, a three-picture essay answering the OPs question would get an reaction, but it seems on-topic replies are an estranged concept these days - with irrelevant tangents being the norm.

The above are exactly as asked for - fragmenting monos.

Where can I buy?

Sorry I wasn't more direct in thanking you specifically... appreciate you went out of your way to provide pics. Do you have experience with any of these?

Ready, I counted at least 8 responses directly addressing the OP, not counting mine which pointed out that N Pts are not lead free.

I also very much appreciate your response w/ pics. I was not aware of those bullets nor their characteristics. Thanks

A big game version of

I don't think I want a bullet that turned into powdered metal in the first couple inches for a hunting bullet.

For the Brenneke TAG Bullet an EMail to [email protected] might turn up some information.

The Sax and the Jaguar are sold in Europe. I have no information on sales in the US.

I have some 180 grain GSC's loaded in the 35 Whelen right now. Hoping to get out and shoot them soon. I believe they are another that will shed some petals if they are driven hard enough. Never fired one of them, but they might be another decent option.

Those Euro bullets look pretty devastating and as MD mentioned, they get to shoot a lot of animals with them.

Anyone ever see how the Lapua Naturalis bullet? I have seen them advertised but never seen a fired one?

Probably ought to say this.

I am going to be working up some 270 loads for the 80 grain TSX. Barnes data shows that running at over 3900 maxed out. Even poking one of those between ribs a person probably ought to expect the petals to come off. Whether they hold together or shed petals though I just can't see it making any difference at that kind of speed. The lungs will turn into red soup and the end will come quickly.

I am primarily a handgun hunter and I have used CEB bullets on a number of animals. I shot a couple of small wild hogs with my .480 Ruger SRH loaded with 220 grain Raptors at 1,700 fps. I neck shot one and one of the petals actually bisected the animal's heart. I was actually fairly impressed with the results.

You COULD say that. And you COULD be right where you hunt. And you COULD be wrong in other areas.

Yep...

To me, velocity is a big consideration with bullet selection.

With my .240, I like (it likes) 100 NPT's. In my 26 Nos, I like (it likes) monometals, the 120 TAC-X slightly edging the 120 E-Tip for best accuracy.

The gun has a say in those decisions. Most will tell you what they like and if terminal performance of that projectile is Kosher for the game being hunted, the decision is easy.

DF

I have killed several whitetail with the CEB Raptors out of a .223 Rem. They worked very well, within the limits of that cartridge. If I were forced to go with a monometal bullet for med/large game, I think that would be the one I used. Kind of expensive, but they absolutely perform as advertised.

South Texas
You are 100% correct!

That's rare. But occurs occasionally.

As the OP asked, game laws may make the lead bullet go away.

However, if I had to hunt with only TTSXs I would not consider that a limitation in any way.

RWS makes a number of bullets that are designed to lose part of their weight in fragments. A couple of these are monometal designs.

The Germans are much more concerned with the terminal ballistics of their bullets than their external ballsitics.

They also design bullets to offer ideal ballistics from the muzzle to 300 meters,which covers 99% of the game killed world wide.

They really don't care what a bullet does at 1000 yards,but they do want it to expand rapidly,kill quickly,and exit producing a blood trail from point blank to 300 meters every time.

I think they have hunting bullets figured out better than us.

Scenar
Berger
Cutting Edge

If I was a gun writer CEB would be the bullets that I would be putting in ink. Even if I didn't get them for free....

Head and shoulder shots are what I like to take if possible.So it does not really matter what bullet you use.I think way too much is made out of premium bullets.Good old 100% lead bullets killed game for 100`s of years.Just sayin!!!!

Aahh....had not thought about the non lead issue.

Just belt them through the shoulders with the TTSX. They are less likely to make a lot of tracks that way.

The TTSX seems to work remarkably similar to a Partition in many instances, even so far as losing much/most of the front end. Small irony, huh? (And even more ironic, it repeats one of the original “major flaws” with the X bullet. )

I have a piece on CEB in the Summer 2015 Show and Auction issue of Gun Digest magazine.

coyotewacker,

I have been writing about CEB bullets for at least a couple of years now. But one thing you would discover if you actually were a gun writer is that you can't write about only one bullet, because readers want to hear about all of them.

And if you did actually try enough different bullets to get an idea of how each worked, you'd discover they all work to a greater or lesser degree. And if you wrote about all of them you'd find there were readers who bitched about every bullet, because every bullet:

1) Is too expensive
2) Is too cheap
3) Loses too much weight
4) Doesn't fragment enough
5) Isn't what they've been using since 1957
6) Won't shoot 1/2" groups at 300 yards
7) Has a BC is too low for 300-yard shots
8) Ruins too much meat
9) won't work, I just know it won't without ever using one
10) Is only getting ink because the company advertises in that magazine

You forgot #11) "Pencils" on through

Yep! And most of the time, they come to that conclusion after looking at the entrance and exit holes, which makes me wonder how many hunters actually field-dress their own game anymore--or understand what they're looking at if they do.

Don't forget "over penetration!"

Which reminds me of JeffO and #13) Box is too difficult to open.

Box is wrong color.

David

I always read the entire thread before posting -- so I saw that that old bastid Ingwe had beat me to this!

Great minds think alike!

John

How about" the deer was stone ass dead,but the bullet did not exit."

Explodes on the shoulder... I haven't seen this yet and have killed well over a hundred medium sized game animals with many different calibers and bullets. Many times it was PBR with high speed calibers. The closest I have seen is a WSM or maybe 06 at about 5 feet with an SST. The jacket was in the offside skin. I used to prefer the high shoulder so if any shot would break up a bullet it is this one IMO.

The only bullets ever recovered where jackets from SSTs and two Accubonds from a 7mm-08 that where raking shots at about 20 yards. They both traveled through the last rib and stopped under the skin of the offside shoulder in perfect mushrooms. Still have them around here somewhere. I am not an expert by any means but usually when there is discussion of expansion or no expansion it is medium game and not larger game.

I was so worried ( not really ) about bullet expansion I killed my 2013 11' gator with a knife.