Last Spring I ordered 2 boxes of 'fancy' Nosler brass for a new 270 Winchester.

Brass showed up and luckily both boxes had matching lot #'s.


Month passes and I ordered more bullets and decide to get another box of the brass.


Different lot # this time(of course).


Load it up with the same charge as I had been using and fire away.


Now it's summer time, hot outside, and I'm getting pancaked primers and the accuracy isn't as good. Blame the temps, barrel heat, etc., and forget about it until it cools back down.


Re-test my proven load in cooler weather and get random flyers and pancaked primers on certain shots.

WTF?


Took about a minute to remember that I bought a third box.


Hmmm, the ol' light bulb is starting to warm-up...


Weigh the pancaked primer brass, 215 grains.
(edited, actually weighs 207...)

Weigh the original brass(nice round primers), 185 grains.



I'm far from a reloading expert but that seems like a lot of variance?

SWEET JESUS, that is a HUGE difference in weight. How the hell can that be.

I'd be on the horn with Nosler RTF now.

Well I thought it was a big difference as well but honestly haven't weighed enough brass to really know.


Last time I weighed brass was 2-3 years ago when I switched from Remington brass to Lapua(243 Win).

The Lapua was heavier(can't remember how much) so I re-worked up the charge.




I was obviously pissed about the Nosler deal and just tossed the 50 pieces in the garbage can. Of course I had to weigh 150 pieces of brass to be sure I found them all.

Just for the heck of it why not cut one of each in half length wise and compare the thickness difference. That's a lot of weight difference. Nosler should be told about it. Might even get you some free brass.

Sam;
Top of the morning to you sir, hopefully this finds you all well and ready for the upcoming winter as far as hay/feed goes.

Quickly here before I head up the mountain behind the house I'll say that I've noted some very large variance in brass weights too - the .308 being the very worst at over 40gr difference if I'm recalling correctly.

Terry Wieland had a decent article in either Rifle or Handloader recently about trying to duplicate Jack O'Connor loads in a .270 and not being able to stick that much powder in many lots of the cases he had on hand.

It's vexing when the cases have the same headstamp and vary wildly for sure though Sam.

Typically I've been running a "hunting load" pile of brass and then the "range/rock shooting" lot which has me adjusting for the varied weights.

It's for sure a good thing to pay attention too though in my experience as I found out in a similar way that you did.....

All the best to you and yours this fall Sam and good luck on your hunts too.

Dwayne

Earl, that is a good idea. I just dug in the garbage and picked out 11 cases which are currently in the tumbler.

Dwayne, I do remember thinking that the powder did look a little 'full' in the cases but a max load of H4831sc fills 'em up to the neck anyway so I never stopped to really think about it.


Gonna re-weigh the garbage brass and double check my memory here in a minute. They might have been in the 210 grain range, either way it made a somewhat noticable difference in accuracy and pressure.


Hay supply is good and we just chopped up about 1000 tons of silage corn this past week. The cows shouldn't starve...grin

I must have been drinking beer when I weighed the cases...


Memory is slightly off.


Original weigh 185.

Pancakes weigh 207.



Still seems like too much variance especially for $1 apiece.


Does Nosler make their own brass or someone else?

Nosler has used different vendors over time.

In 308 Win. cases from Federal and Lake City have been 178 grains on average, while WW cases have been 155 grains. R-P has been about 165, and Lapua 173. To be clear, I'm not saying these were Nosler suppliers.

These averages have held true over many different lots I've encountered over the last decade.

I can see different manufacturers having different weights but stuff with the same headstamp should at least be within reason.

Especially stuff purchased within a month or two of each other. It's not like I am comparing 5-10 year old brass with new production.




For the first time ever I even made a comment on MidwayUSA's site. It wasn't positive......grin

But that's the thing, even though there's one headstamp there could well be different manufacturers since Nosler doesn't make it.

The difference in production dates could be much larger than the difference in purchase dates. Are the lot numbers decipherable?

And that is likely the problem.


Excellent point.


It had never dawned on me that they might source brass for the same cartridge from different manufacturers. That is actually a pretty stupid move(IMHO).


I have the boxes(lot #'s) from the original 100 pieces but must have tossed the box from the most recent order.

A reputable source has written that Nosler has trimmed their vendor list down. That's why I'm wondering about the heavy stuff being old stock. I had some older Nosler 270 Win. brass and it was thick, heavy and (the bad part) soft. Same with some 308.

More recent Nosler in 308 and 243 has been excellent however.

I had the same problem loading for a 9.3x62, using Hornady brass. I admit that was trying to push the envelope a bit, and I kept finding quite a few flattened primers among those that looked OK. Finally, I weighed all 100 cases that had come in two boxes of 50. The variation in the weight of the individual cases was pretty much in line with what you experienced.

I switched from Varget to RL-15, backed off a little on the desired velocity and things settled down nicely.

Mathman, I'd buy it again if I could get all the same lot # but ordering has always been an issue.

The best is when you order a few boxes of bullets and they all have different lot #'s! Had that happen once or twice.

I always check bullet OAL length and ogive to base length but it's just one more thing to 'worry' about.



Mudhen, I just tossed the new ones. Thought about selling them and that would have made more sense but it felt better to see them in the trash!

When I purchase brass, I try to get at least 100 pcs.
If I am working on range brass, I prefer more than that to start.

I never mix headstamps.

I weight sort into groupings (even with same lot number).

Usually I can find a mid weight within a .002-003 grain range for a majority of the brass.

I also sort the lights and heavies out into separate batchs. There are usually some flyers way out and they do not get used unless there are enough to make a working batch.

I give each batch a unique batch number and work up loads by batch. I keep records of all loadings by component and dimensional specs, and gun loaded for and results.
Four large 3 ring binders worth of records.

I uniform by batch before using. ie: full length size to the chamber brass will be used in, true primer pocket, trim to length, chamfer mouth and tumble.
New brass gets run thru the sizer too to true the mouth.

Sometimes I also outside turn the necks for uniformity if the thickness varies more than a couple thousandths.

Not as much a pain as it sounds, just what I have evolved into doing.

I believe that many brass mfrs will run multiple lines production into one batch. That will cause some extra variation. Were I in charge in this situation, I would make a separate batch off of each line and therefore expect less variation overall by batches and happier customers (for those paying attention).
==Yeah, I would tell the bean counter to keep his nose out of the process as I am sure he would like fewer lot numbers to log into the books.

jmho
Tim

Sam,

I would notify Nosler, since they say their brass is weight-sorted.

Looks like very different manufacturers made your two batches. As somebody already stated, they have changed vendors at least once in certain cartridges since starting to offer brass. (It might also interest some to know Nosler is now making SOME brass, after buying Silver State a couple of years ago and moving it to Oregon.)

Might also note that other companies sometimes buy brass from other companies, or make it for other companies. This can lead to variations in weight, though not usually as extreme as you experienced. And some of the companies making brass for each other might surpise you!

Has anybody compared brass weight to volume? Is there pretty much a straight line correlation with brass fired in the same chamber?

John,

With all this variation and companies making brass for each other, how do the ammunition companies produce safe ammo easily and profitably? Do they test very early (right at the start?) in the production process of each lot, with each specific lot of powder, brass, bullets, primer and adjust accordingly? I'd assume (rightly I would hope) that they are trying to achieve some sort of "maximum average" pressure/velocity in order to satisfy customers' expectations. Relatively easy enough for a reloader to "start low and work up", but that's not really conducive to running a production facility.

I used to work in production bakeries (think bread "factory") and know how dificult it can be when something changes in the "recipe". We once received a train car load of cake flour instead of bread flour. That was a nightmare as it takes a few hours of production to notice it won't work at all, even with adjustments to the recipe.

Thanks for any clarification.

Geno

Geno,

Yep, the ammo factories buy (or make) stuff in huge lots and "work up" a load with those particular components, especially brass and powder.

Usually (but not always) they're using a powder we wouldn't even recognize from the designation, and unlike the powders we buy, theirs aren't blended in some attempt to achieve lot-to-lot similarity in burn rate. It usually comes in barrels about the size of oil drums, shipped on at least one rail car and maybe several.

Sometimes the ammo company makes their own brass and sometimes it doesn't, so that goes into the new lod work-up too. All if this is made a little easier by the fact that SAAMI allows plus-or-minus 90 fps from the velocity standard for each cartridge and bullet weight.

Thanks for the replies, very informative.



I should get ahold of Nosler and let them know that their idea of weight sorted should maybe apply across the board for a given cartridge and not just an individual box.

Thanks John,

Good to know about the +/- 90fps SAAMI variance. 180 fps total swing, that could explain some sighting in stuff I've seen over the years. Now that I've got a chrono I should start using it more often. Always a bit of a pain on public ranges though.

Sam,

Thanks for bringing this up,

Good luck to all on their hunts and "woods loafing" this fall.

Geno

If the external dimensions are the same between two brands of case, then the heavier brass will have less internal volume. This is more critical with smaller cases than larger ones.

Because fired brass generally has more internal volume due to expansion, it is important to work up loads, record weights and internal volumes for each brand or lot of brass.

Sam.

At one point Remington was making brass for Nosler. I understand that is no longer the case. As Mathman mentioned Remington brass tends to run heavy. It sounds to me like you may have picked up a box of new/old stock Remington made of Nosler brass.

That much is understood. The question is, does a 5% variance in weight translate to a 5% variance in volume.

It is not a direct linear relationship. I imagine the internal variance would be about half that. The best way for Sam to find out is measure the internal H2O volume.

I was going say couldn't a guy just measure with water?

Nope. It does reduce case capacity but you can't calculate "new" case capacity that easily. You would have to convert the weight of brass to volume using its density, the deduct that volume from the "original" case capacity to determine the difference.

It's much easier just to measure the difference in case capacity by measuring case capacity of each by weighing the empty fired case then filling with water and weighing - in this case, a 5% change in weight of the water is a 5% change in case volume.

I dunno. According to some over on the Nosler forum, it's Norma that making Nosler brass. Never used the stuff so the other day I bought 100 pieces to try out. I must say it good looking brass. Primer pockets are nice and square, not like the concave pockets of most commercial brass. You can look down inside and see the flash holes are properly reamed to eliminate the burrs. Now if my .280 Rem. rifle likes the stuff???????
Paul B.

Also understood, but that wasn't my question.

The real question is how the volume difference relates to pressure with the same powder charge. Probably easiest to just load some up and shoot 'em over the chronograph.

i can tell you that with a max load if you switch from Winchester to Remington brass in a .270 Winchester you will need to drop back a grain of powder of you will be loosing primers

Thanks. Actually loading some RP 308 brass with a load worked up in lapua so it should be fine.

Sam -

I know you said you threw them in the trash.

Are they gone OR could you retrieve them?? and compare water capacities.

An addendum:

I could 'assume' those brass are GONE since you threw them in the trash.... but not necessarily so.

It has to be measured. There is no direct corellation or ratio. IOW, 5% more water volume does not mean you can put 5% more powder in.

That's been my experience as well. Have experimented some with different brass in the same rifle, and the amount of powder required to match velocity with two kinds of brass isn't always predictable, everything else being equal. About all that can be said is heavier brass normally requires less powder.

A lot of this probably involves the 4-to-1 Rule, where in any change in powder capacity in the same bore results in 1/4 that much change in velocity AT THE SAME PRESSURE.

J, retrieved and weighed.




Nosler 185 grains empty 258 w/water

Nosler 207 empty 276 w/water

Fed(old) 205 empty

Hornady 205 empty

W/W 193 empty

The lighter 'Nosler' brass holds 4 more grains of water.

I would have guessed more.


Wish I had Chrony data on the hot loads.


Nothing crazy I'm sure but maybe +100fps?

Also, its a good idea to check the interior volume of brass to get a base line. Any additional brass from different manufacturers or lots of the same manufacturer can vary. The volume does vary and its prudent to know what those changes are.
The Quickload program is useful in determining predicted pressure as related to case volume and powder charge.

No, it doesn't.

Thnx Sam

At &1.00 each, I'd have to swallow hard to discard.

I'd probably MARK that lot and load specifically for them. Yep, it sucks but maybe worth the time.

Good Luck

Jerry

Jerry, worse part is I got nervous for a day and started thinking I had a gun or scope issue. Deer season in a few weeks and all of a sudden what the hell is wrong with this gun or scope?

Until I finally wised up and noticed the primers.

One problem with measuring water capacity of different kinds of brass is variation in how much cases spring back after firing, even when fired in the same chamber. This can vary with brass thickness, how many times its been fired, and the exact alloy. As a result measuring capacity is by no means exact, and case weight is a better indicator of capacity.

Indeed, see edit!

From another thread:

I know nothing of metallurgy, but what about the possibility of one batch of brass being denser (and heavier) than another, with little variance in internal capacity between the two?

I was recently given a quantity of Remington once-fired 6mm Rem. cases from the 70's. All were in original cardboard boxes and there were several different lot numbers on the boxes. I separated the brass based on weight. The lightest averaged 173 grs, the heaviest 188 grains.

Using a moderate load (43 grs. Reloder 19 with a 100 grain Partition, Federal 210 M primer) chronographed velocity for the light cases averaged 2806 fps. The heavy brass averaged 2812 fps; virtually the same. Loads were fired in a Cooper with 22" barrel.

I have not yet checked the water capacity of any of the brass.

It would seem prudent to sell that lot of brass to someone who does not already run Nosler headstamps. No sense to waste it all.

Yup. Some brands are not only softer,but vary in head design and web thickness(taper) as well. Remington has always had this "reputation" for being thicker and softer than WW brass,which seems generally lighter and harder.

Point being brass varies from one manufacturer to another. This can be a royal PITA if you don't have enough of one lot hanging around. Good to back off your load and work back up when changing types (makes) of brass.

That was exactly your question, you never mentioned pressure in your original question.

"That much is understood. The question is, does a 5% variance in weight translate to a 5% variance in volume."

Volume and pressure are not the same thing...

As to the thread title as it appears on the forum list: the left one is usually a bit larger/heavier.

Is that you Sherlock?

I treat new brass as brass that needs to be fire formed to the chamber. Case volume is determined with the unsized fire formed case. A powder charge is chosen and chronographed, cases are 'sized' withal Lee collet die and tend to stay the same dimensionly until the shoulder needs to be bumped back, generally this takes many firings before this is needed.

Hers, or yours? And her left, or your left?

Thnx MD - Yes, I understand there are other variables.

Yrs. ago I experienced a problem w/a lot of brass. Long story/short. I was shooting 62 grs of SURPLUS 4831 in NEW 270 brass and LOST 200 fps. There was NO room to add more powder so...
Never figured out what the problem was so I trashed them BUT at the time the cost was NOT $1.00 ea.


I asked Sam if he 'could' compare them not only by new weight but also filled w/water just to have a better idea of what he was working with.


IF those NEW brass were mine, I'd probably back off the powder charge by 2 grs. (probably more than enuff) and work back up by 1/2 gr increments and whatever charge worked best, I use in that 'specific' lot of brass.

Just what I would do.

Thnx Again

Jerry

I've always liked that 4 to 1 rule.

WRT to water weights, I suspect you do the same thing as I do, John. There are circumstances when I measure dry and wet case weights with new or new to me brass, or for cartridges that I've never loaded. I trust case weight absolutely (no primer). I trust water weight (when I measure it) almost as much. But...

I only trust me. Since I do it the same way each time, there is less divergence. I trust my method of filling a case and leaving a very slight concavity. Using someone else's measurements will mean more variance, since we may not add water in the same way.

I know some people overfill cases. Surface tension allows them to fill them to the top and a tad beyond. It's another variable, combined with different case brands or brass runs, that can produce different results.

Then there were chamber sizes. Once upon a time, I used to take 20 new cases and check water weight before and after firing. Wanted to see how cavernous the chamber was by comparing the 'before and after' volumes. Somewhere along the line I realized that I was getting too anal. I also realized that there were variations the the brass that would produce slightly different results. I don't bother anymore, unless I've got a reason.

All that said, for my personal hunting loads, I don't care. I simply stuff cartridges with propellant and verify on paper at different yardages.

Thanks, Sam for pointing out that makes of brass can vary by lot. Hadn't run into that.
A couple of things I've noticed.
Even with brass that can vary alot, if you don't go for the highest velocity possible, one can load ammo with different brass weights that flies the same over at least 300 yds.
Factory ammo can also vary, not only in velocity, but in the rifle's zero. If you hunt with factory ammo, it's a good idea to buy 2-4 boxes of the same lot number. E

E -

Just an intended helpful suggestion.

All components in reloading CAN vary from lot - lot.

Brass, Powder, Primers, and Bullets as mentioned in this thread.

Take nothing for granted. Check and Verify. It's not just for accuracy, SAFETY can also be involved.

Jerry