was fondling one over at Sportsman's Earlier this evening...

sure had a good feel to it... especially after looking at a Ruger American Ranch rifle...

was looking to replace a 223...

any good bad or uglies I should be aware of?

Over the years I've owned 5 or 6 in various stocks and calibers. I've never had one that wouldn't shoot sub-MOA. My current go-to rifle is a factory synthetic stocked Vanguard in .257 Weatherby. Bone stock. No bedding, no barrel relief, nothing. I haven't had the pleasure of shooting the most recent iteration of the series, but I've heard nothing bad at all.

As I'm sure you're aware, they are made on the Howa action. In and of itself a very reliable, accurate, and respected action. The 3-position safety and adjustable trigger are positives in my book. One could do much worse than a Vanguard IMHO.

Buddy has one. One hole out of the box.

I've owned 3 in past yrs.

No problems at all.


Jerry

I really like Vanguard2s and currently have 3, 2x 6.5 Creed and 1x 223. FWIW, Weatherby changed the ROT in the 223s from 1-14" to 1-9" at SN VB084281.

The 6.5 Creeds are the most accurate factory stock CF rifles and factory ammo combo I have yet to own. If you and your rifle are up to it, the Hornady 140 grain AMax factory ammo is easily MOA or better.

Come to think of it,

1 was a 223. Very Accurate

Jerry

The Vanguard is a excellent rifle, not expensive or fancy, but accurate and reliable. If the price is right, buy it with no trepidation.

A very solid action. In many ways it is a SAKO derivative.

Finish below the stock line is not great but only noticeable when you pull the action. Quality has varied some but even the worst beat the hell out of a RAR in my biased opinion.

Has a good adjustable trigger that with tuning is a really good trigger. No plastic parts, easy to re-barrel and usually good to go out of the box. If you could get the fast twist version that is what I would do.

The Ruger is a great rifle for the price and frequently will out shoot a custom rifle on which just the barrel cost more than a complete RAR.

very weak bolt stop.....other than that , a good gun

All 3 of mine are MOA shooters. Check the tightness on the action screws, clean off the outside, and run a patch down the barrel. Mount your scope of choice and start enjoying one of the better rifles on the market.

Howa's and VG's are the best bang for the buck in the new rifle market.



Travis

I just got an S2 .223 in SS. Mounted an old VX-I 4-12 in Talleys. The first three groups, two 3-shot and one 5-shot using Fiocchi 40gr Vmax Extrema, were all under an inch. Pretty good ammo for $22 for fifty. The first batch of handoads using Varget under the 64gr Nosler BSB were disapponting, but I'm not the only one having trouble getting that one to shoot well. Next up is CFE.223, Nosler's accuracy choice.

I've never been a fan of the Weatherby-style stock, but the Griptonite stock is very comfortable and puts me right behind the scope, unlike any of my Rugers. It's a major improvement over the Hogue that was on my Howa .308. The 2-stage trigger is excellent, even better I think than the one on my Hawkeye Predator. The action fits perfectly in the stock and the finish on the stainless metal is very nice. The safety is a bit stiff, but time and a drop of oil may fix that. The only plastic action part I've found is the follower.

Cons are weight, which I knew going in and is due to the beefy forged action, and the stamped bolt release and safety. I may have to find something to slip over the safety button to make it more comfortable. I'm sure not giving up that sweet trigger to get a nicer safety button.

Overall, a really good rifle and a great value, well worth the extra bucks over a RAR to me and fully equal or better than anything I've seen near the price of $639. I want another one.

You could pick up a Howa Lightning from Darrik at $340 shipped and buy a takeoff VGS2 stock on fleabay for well under $100. That's if you decide you can't live with the Lightning stock, which is shaped similarly to the Hogue rubber one without the rubberiness that so many people don't like.

The stock trigger is pretty nice, but Timney makes a better one that's also about $95 shipped on fleabay, and comes with a nicer safety lever.

If weight's an issue, the mini action shaves off a lot, if you don't mind the DM hanging out the bottom. I thought they made it with a regular box mag, but didn't see it ths time. Could just be my oldtimers syndrome in action.

Blued S2s can be found under $500 on GB.

^^^^^^^



This

I have owned 3 over the years two were 243s and the current one is a 270 that I bought at Sportsmanship Wharehouse in the last 6 mo. It was a left over S1 and I got it at what I thought was a reasonable discount. The first 243 was a early vx model and had a beautiful golden colored walnut stock it also shot thumb nail sized groups at 100 yds. The 2 nd one with the black synthetic stock also shot well . This new 270 is pretty much new and I don't even have it broken in yet, just one sigh in trip t o the range.

I really think the vanguard is the standout in the value priced rifles out there. I have a couple of savage guns and like them fine but the vanguard just seems nicer to me for some reason. If there is a knock they are a bit heavier than the savage and Ruger choices. The S1 like mine is reputed to have a heavy trigger pull but my 270 is very nice. If you get a good buy and the weight is acceptable then I say go with it i expect you will be very happy i know I am.

Compared to the Howa/VG's the Tikka's and Americans and Savages are just a big POS.

Darrik has the new Mini for $329.99 by the way.


Dave

I have equal numbers of Tikka and Howa. They are different, but I like them equally. Each has its strengths and weaknesses relative to the other.

As I've said elsewhere, it's not right to group Tikkas in the same class as Savages and RARs just because of the plastic, any more than you'd say an H&K USP is in the same class as an LCP because they are both polymer frame handguns. Not all plastic is the same, and if my life depended on it, I'd take a USP all day long and twice on Sunday over any 1911.

I have Howa's and Tikkas as well.

One's a rifle, the other isn't.



Travis

First 3 shots from my 257 Wby Vanguard. Bought gun, had scope mounted and bore sighted, bought a box of Factory Weatherby 115 BST and went to the gun range. Never even cleaned the bore. .63 inches!

Obviously - you are outnumbered.


Jerry

Thanks for the input....

have a Mini Action in 223, with a 10 round mag and a one in 9 twist earmarked with my name on it...

the price thru Darrik on a "special purchase" was just too damned good to pass up...

So were the Romney voters.



Travis

I have a sub moa version in .223. The stock feels a bit odd, but I make do. While I didn't try too many types of factory ammo in it- none shot even close to moa. Including some federal match stuff. 2-3 inches was the norm. Loaded up some 52gr SMK's and after a bit of tinkering it can do .75-.5 moa.

This is from Wednesday 1 inch targets at 100tds


And this was about a year ago

I purchased a NIB stainless Sll .243 a few months ago. It certainly is heavier than it needs to be, and I have never been a fan of two stage triggers, but everything else is pretty darn good. I have tried a handful of 95 and 100 grain bullets and all of them have shot very well through my Sll. I will not own a bolt action rifle that does not lock the bolt down when it is on safe, so the Sll’s three position safety works perfectly for me. CP.

r ham -

Nuttin wrong with those.

Jerry

I have a Howa .243, a Youth model, that I've embellished somewhat.




I haven't shot it too often at the little itty-bitty dots, but it can hit these. It slings a mean TTSX.

That's money well spent Vic.

Nice rifle.




Dave

I should also say that the trigger was horrible. It felt as if they dunked the trigger in sand before they shipped them out. Replaced it and couldn't be happier

With the new 2-stage or is it an older one?




Travis

Older

D A N D Y !!!


Jerry

Very good rifle, but heavy.

Thank you, Mr Wall.

I also depend heavily upon it while competing in the prestigious "Dink-A-Thon".

Vic in Va I like that paint job. How did you get that effect?

McSwirley?

Hey Vic -

them deers come in all sizes. <G> I've tried em all.


BANGEYE -

That stock finish reminds me of a McSwirly.

Jerry

Outstanding rifles. I presently have two. The triggers are a crapshoot, so one sports a Timney and McMillan stock. They both shot sub HALF MOA out of the box.

I have owned probably close to a dozen over the last 15 years or so and every one would easily beat the inch and a half guarantee. Now they are an inch and even better triggers. Best buy for a factory rifle in my opinion

Vic

What type of sling is that?


Mike

Vic in Va , Thank you I didn't think it looked like a do it yourself job.

It's a McSwirley, Sako Classic pattern 50/50 Orange/Black. Timney trigger, Leupold 2-7X33 VX-2 mounted in Talley Lightweights. That's the rifle particulars.

The sling is a Safari Sling. I hunt a lot from a climbing stand, if the conditions favor it. The sling allows me to carry my rifle in front of me with the load on my back and to tether the rifle to me while in the stand.

You can draw it all the way up and use it like a standard sling.

This sling? If so I've got 2 of their Packer straps and 1 2+2 sling. Quality stuff at a good price. The swivels take some getting use to.

http://www.redi-mag.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=14

Cool sling system there!

May have to try one out.

Mike

Sweet setup Vic!

I like the Vanguards they are solid accurate guns, a bit heavy for my liking but that's all the bad I can say about them.

This one in 30-06 shot well under inch with 165gr GameKings




Targets like this



gave me confidence to make neck shots like this:

My S2 Blaze Camo 270 shoots well under an inch, and is handy in cold weather.



Ted

They shoot Great, but they're awfully heavy for rugged up "n down country hunting. The lock time is lightning quick!

This one in 257 Wby was a great open country combination.

I was at the range shooting with my hunting partner and his bolt came out of his Vanguard in his hand. They sent him a new screw, but IIRC it looked the bolt stop was held on by just a little screw head.

It seems like a weak link in a good rifle. I thought it was a fluke, but have since talked to someone else who had it happen to them, also.

And I'm not just saying this because I really like my Tikkas!

My three finest are built on VG's/Howa's.

McMillan's and Timneys. The 7-08 and 22-250 have been rebarreled also.





Wife's .223. Timney and an EDGE were added.

Nice groups that rifle is shooting, Matt! It's nice to see groups like that, helps with confidence in the field.

Clark, I was considering a 20" Pac-nor in .308 for my rifle. Right now, I'm having too much fun with the .243 and may keep it in that cartridge but with a tighter twist.

I'm a fan of the Howa/Vanguard. This one probably won't be my last one.

I've had my S&W (Howa) since the early 80's. For 25+ yrs it was my only centerfire rifle so it was used a lot. Never had the problem your describing. But then anything mechanical can fail.

Stay .243. Maybe go 8 twist on your next barrel.

Don't forget about the 22-250... 8 twist.

I hate .308's.



Travis

Nice to know that Clark. I thought I was the only one...


Yeah, they are accurate, and yeah they work on almost anything.


But I never liked them. Don't know why, I mean they're not gay like .270s or anything...

Virginia, in its infinite wisdom, does not allow the .22 bore for deer hunting.

8 twist is what I am considering if I stay 6mm.

Well for one thing, I don't concur with the "always accurate" assessment of the .308.

Second, it kicks a lot and hurts my girlish shoulders.

Third, if something is going to kick me and hurt my girlish shoulders, it needs to be chambered in something more manly. Like the 30-06. Or the 338-Gruff. Or the .375 H&H. Not some half-ass short actioned 30 cal.



Travis

I have a .308. I like it. Does that mean you don't like me?

I will take immense comfort in the "not gay" part.

Though, the more I use the .243, the more I'm inclined to keep it as such.

Solves that.

6 Creed might work too. I love that 250 Savage case. Just hard to depart from the .308 based stuff. I have too much brass...


Travis

If I were inclined to name rifles, well, there's one.

I have had a half dozen or so over the years, and I still have a couple. I sold a .308 because it didn't do anything that several other rifles did very well. I traded a .300 Win Mag after I bought a Back Country in .300 Win Mag a couple of years ago. The others were given to a brother and a grandson who use them as their primary rifle.

I like them and have found them to be pretty good shooters right out of the box. I liked a couple of them enough to replace the factory stocks with a Pacific Research and a Rimrock. These days, I am gravitating toward lighter rifles as the effects of the years and the good times are taking their toll.

.250 Savages are just cool, as is the .300 Savage.

Those are some highly thought of rounds here, very useful in the brush. Not too powerful and destructive, but with a fair amount of reach.

.250 Savage is cool...

The .300 Savage, in anything but a model99 is just too much like a .308....

Treading on thin ice with you today, huhh? (grin)

I knew a fellow a few years ago that had the predecessor to the 700, a 720 or 721?, in .300 Savage.

A couple of guys had them in M99s, but the one I liked the most was the M99/.250-3000.

To keep thread drift and hijack at a minimum, Howa should chamber in those cartridges.

A couple stores here are clearing out the Vanguard 2's with the funky stocks for $500 Cdn, which is pretty much free in US funds. Just not sure if the 1-10 twist is going to work with 105's, I know they sometimes do and sometimes don't. Its really the only bullet I'm interested in shooting in this caliber. Would be nice if they could twist them a bit faster and shed a bit of weight.

Someone posted something here about a particular chambering in the Vanguard having issue's with accuracy and I believe JB corroborated this, apparently a known issue. Anyone recall what it was?

From my vast experience of one, it ain't 30-06.

Or 2506 or 243 or 22/250

I've had two that were excellent; one in 257 Weatherby & another (I have it now) that I rebarreled with a take-off 300 Weatherby barrel. Both have been extraordinarily accurate but heavy.

In 300 that last point doesn't matter but is a bit of an advantage.

I need one of the 223s to drop into a High Tech Spec stock. Seems perfect.

Found the thread, apparently it was the 6.5x55 that had the issue.

It isn't logical for the non-reloader to own either the 250-3000 or 300 Savage when the cheaper/easier 243 and 308 fill the same niches.

Logical?

GFY.



Dave

A typically polite and well thought out 24HCF reply. It never fails.

I'd lean toward a VG2 if shopping .243. It's one of the few off the shelf rifles that gives .243 a 24" barrel. The funky stocks feel pretty good to me. The Howa labeled version of the barreled action is 22".

Sad but true.

I have one in 223 and the Houge stock and it does shoot quite good.

The only thing that has come up is the extractor spring got weak.

But for the money it does the job.

I'd trade that 24" barrel for the 22" if they would twist it up a bit.

If that's your requirement, RAR is 9" and Savage is 9.25".

If you need 8", maybe you're just a barrel nut or otherwise custom kinda guy.

I think he was referencing rifles.



Travis

I have 4 Howas currently and had another in .22-250 that I sold. The old triggers can be tuned, but they're not match quality.

One of them is a .222 branded S&W that is so much fun on PDs.

For the money, I think they're quality-wise better than any of the current "economy" rifles available.

CDNN had the varmints a few years ago for $399. Picked up a .243 and .308 at the time.

For the money, very hard to beat.

I guess that I'm just too young to have that much appreciation for 2 cartridges that have been SUPERceded for so many decades.


Why choose either one when today it's hard to find brass for 'common' cartridges much more so for obsolete rounds?

Jerry

Nostalgia?

Seriously - both were popular before my time.

Since 1972 I have only known 2 guys who had 250-3000s and NO ONE who had a 300 Savage. I'm NOT trying to demean either round. I'm approaching them from a 'practical' side. TRY finding brass for them.

Jerry

I have a 9.25".....but the barrels too heavy....get it? Thats all the double entendre's I can can manage on short notice.

But seriously now, I did look at the RAR and might go that route but the VG seems like a little more rifle for the same price. Usually they are $200 more than the RAR but they are clearing them out right now so they are priced the same. I'd love a 6.5 Creedmoor in the VG but have come up empty in my search for one.

I haven't been a rifle looney as long as most on here, but I am 44 years old and I've never personally seen a rifle in either of those cartridges.

As to the OP's question, I've owned one Vanguard S2 in 257Wby. It was an accurate, well made rifle. It was on the heavy side, but I liked the 2-stage trigger. A friend of mine borrowed it and had to have it so I sold it to him. I still reload for him.

Not everybody is as young as you are, so for some folks those cartridges bring back nostalgic memories. I started reloading when I was 12, so that I could afford to feed my 250-3000s. While I would never recommend either cartridge to a person who doesn't reload, both are still as capable as the rifles from which they are fired and the guys who are behind the triggers.

Agreed but My MAIN point is ".." above.

Jerry

I agree that "obsolete" cartridges aren't for everybody, but "practical" and "easy" aren't significant factors in some folks' decision hierarchy.

.250 brass is easily made from .22/250 brass by the COW method, or so I've read. .300 brass might be a bit tougher.

The only reason I'd tackle a .300 would be to use a neat old rifle, otherwise the .308 makes more sense in every way. That reason applies to the .250 as well, but there are a number of special-run Rugers out there that are very nice and sometimes NIB. A Hawkeye .250 RSI pushing 115gr Noslers at 2500 or so would be a great woods gun, no more effective than a .243 maybe, but much cooler. There are also a few stainless/walnut Number 1s.

Thanks for the compliment but next month I'll be 66 YO.

In 1972 I was 22 yo. That's when I began deer hunting and began my gun loonyism. JFYI.

Jerry

You can walk into any Academy Sports in Georgia and find .300 Savage ammo on the shelf!!


Mike

Ready -

Okay but that really surprises me. I don't remember when I saw any 300 Savage ammo on a shelf. Now mind you, I haven't done a search for it but most of the time in the past year finding very much of any ammo has been unusual around here.

Jerry

Yes Sir I understand when you couldn't find anything mainstream it must have been right after Remington did their seasonal run of .300 because it was and largely still is on the shelf when you couldn't get anything else.

Just luck in timing I guess!

Mike

To add a lil to this 250 convo, Ive owned two of em. I love that caliber!! Im 37 now, have owned 1 since I was 12. Its an 1899 take down with deluxe wood. I rebarrelled it a few years ago and it shoots fantastic. Ive taken many many deer with it over the years and would use it on elk if the chance presented itself. Brass is easy to form by necking up 22-250 which is cheap and easy to find.

About the original post, I just got my Vanguard 2 weeks ago. Its 257 Weatherby. I like it a lot and am very pleased with quality, accuracy and just about everything. A great gun for not a ton of money, which is an added bonus.

I can get a .223 Rem. compct for $629 plus tax. I am not sure it is a 1 or 2 though. . I might trade my Sav. 12fv with a bull barrel in for it. I like the Savage for the bench , but that is all it id good for.

I had one about 8 years ago in 338 WM. It shot 3/4” groups. It was a really good rifle, just a little heavy.

I so want a left hand 250-3000

Although I do like to keep my case headstamps straight, I promised myself I could neck up 22-250 brass to load for my 250-3000 if it ever came to that. I have not noticed a shortage of 22-250 brass. I have a tang safety Ruger M77 International and it's not going anywhere soon.

I bought a 7mm08 vanguard s2 sporter and it shot 3 to 4 inch groups at a hundred yards. fit and finish was good, but the savage axis and mossberg patriot shoots circles around it. Even after a 20 round clean after every shot break in, the rough cut rifling still collected copper deposits like bee's to honey. I really wanted to like it, but i'll never buy another

Only issue for me was a need to float the barrel. Removing the forearm pressure point lowered point of impact 7 inches at 100 yds. That process did away with vertical stringing as it warmed, and dis and reassembly a non issue for sustaining zero.

Same issues with Mark V's. Accumarks were already floated.

Unless I’m mistaken, Vanguards built by Howa have hammer forged barrels, not cut rifling. Just sayin’.

I had one in 6.5 Crudmoor, very accurate rifle!

I only have one, a 6.5-300 Wby and it seems to be very accurate. Everyone I have known who has owned them proclaimed their fine accuracy.

Dickson Howa Golden Bear started it.
Sako sued. Design altered abit and became the current Howa. Also has S&W variations along with others.
Nosler is the most current 1st cousin......

I'm shooting a Howa 1500 Alpine in 7mm-08 with the Basner stock and a Timney trigger replaced the 2 stage factory unit.

It shoots MOA with 4350 and 140 gr bullets but when you the rifle with snap caps you become aware of an incredible amount of mechanical movement in the bolt assembly of the Howa when compared to other rifles.

Anyone else notice this? I expect this keeps my groups in the .600 - .900 range.

Accurate, nice little rifle but...

How much was it 8 years ago?




P