This will be just a small mini-rant. Black rifles seem to be everywhere. I'm guessing all the returning vets and their experiences in the Armed Forces with that platform has much to do with it.

Also I can see the appeal of mixing and matching for various configurations and calibers, and they can be fun to shoot. With that said there has to be at least the smallest consideration for visual appeal.

I'll be blunt and (I'm strictly talking about a rifle to hunt with; not to use on the battlefield). The AR-15 and all it's configurations are a repugnant and deformed version of a classic blued and walnut hunting rifle.

Mini-rant over.

Turnbolt rifle popularity started with the military also.

Just a different era.

I don't think you are required to own one. Form follows function.

mike r

I'm sure those a century before us thought the same thing about bolt actions gaining popularity after WWI.

I'd venture to say more "black rifles" are bought by keyboard commandos and wanna be GI Joes than veterans.

That said, the growth in the shooting sports and hence growth in supporters of the 2nd amendment is an upside I'll take over the tinker toy aesthetics.

A lot of folks bought AR 15s simply because Obama and company did not want us to have them. I think they make a fine platform. Mine is only about 4 years old, so I am late to the fold.

I carried and M-16 of one sort or another for 20 years in the service. In all the years I have been retired I have never bought an AR-15. I think about it a lot, but prefer wood and blued steel either in bolt or lever configuration. Sometimes single shot. I do have one bolt action that is stainless with a synthetic stock because of its benefits in harsh conditions.

Saying all that I would not ever condemn a person who decides to carry an AR-15/10 platform for hunting. That would put me in the crowd that has tried to ban every action that ever started out in the military. It would also mean I should condemn those who use synthetic stocks and stainless steel. But, then I have one of those. After all there is nothing different between a Browning BAR or Remington 7400 then the AR-15 but the looks. They are coming in plastic and stainless now too. Oh My!

This reminds me of what happened to Jim Zumbo when he put down those who like the AR patform. We don't hear much from him anymore.

No doubt.

Time for my rant. Why would a hunter need a rifle like the bolt action that could be shot or reloaded so fast? And what's the point of creating a self contained cartridge? As if using a powder horn and a ramrod isn't good enough!

It's the damn Communists and university students! They're to blame. Jumpin' Gee-hosiphat!

Why did they have to change things? And while I'm at it, why jacketed bullets and smokeless powder? And what's wrong with using iron sights? Scopes will upset the natural balance of hunter and game. Maybe I’m a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. What on earth were they thinking?

Progress is evil. Damned repeaters! Damned AR15 platforms!

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/gun/turnbull-tar-15-rifle/

Everyone knows that rifles went to hell when they made moveable breeches. The Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle is the only rifle that does not look like a deformed, stepped on, dog [bleep]. Why do people have to like the same dam thing???

Destined to be THE iconic battle rifle.

It isn't going away any time soon. If ever.




Travis

Coyote doubles with my AR > singles with my bolt-gun.

Ah tradition.

Actually, he is required to own one. He's required to have at least one for everyone in the house, plus a spare.

Seen the news? Looks like the "Religion of Peace" is at it again in Paris

😡

Get thee hence to a black rifle shop.

I'm more interested in the good and the bad than the ugly.

The good: They can be very accurate due to not really having, or needing, "bedding." Ammo is cheap and plentiful. They are very easy to maintain, disassemble, modify, and accessorize. Many "add-ons" are available. For rapid fire target shooting (NRA or CMP high power), they are easy to shoot well because recoil is light, not knocking you out of position. their chamberings (.223 and .308) will give you long barrel life.

The bad: They are awkward and clunky to carry--you can't carry them at the balance point with one hand because the magazine sticks out. They don't come in the kinds of cartridges I like for hunting--all are low powered. In their original configuration they are too small, relative to an M1 or M1A, for large people (like me) to hold with a good position. Also the iron sights are too close together. And the light recoil means that 15-year old girls can beat us!

The ugly? That's in the eye of the beholder.

This is how you meld old with new. This is a tactical 22 Hornet. It is a single shot (old) with a black synthetic stock (new). It is chambered in 22 Hornet (old) with a 4-12x40 scope (new). It features a leather cheek piece (old) with a bipod (new). It was purpose built for unhurried tactical situations involving predators - not unlike the kind that prowl the earth on two legs.

To quote some of the younger shooters that have seen it, "Wow, that's wicked cool!"

To which I say, "Naturally, I'm just an incredibly cool guy that lives in two very dangerous but separate worlds at the same time."



"In a different reality, I could have called you friend."
Original Star Trek series, 1966 - Balance of Terror.

I just wish someone could make a decent trigger for them.

Your gunsmith should be able to clean it up.

I'm mostly a traditionalist myself and never felt a need for any type of semi auto for hunting. MOF I'm just as comfortable with a single shot rifle.

However, I did take a few critters with my AR. Still maybe not my favorite platform, but hey I'm not complaining either.

That said, I bought a second AR, and will be toting it Sunday morning for deer.

It is a 450 Bushmaster and it is a LOT of fun........

I've never seen a trigger on an AR that I liked. I don't know the mechanics of the AR well but it's my understanding that the design doesn't lend itself to a good single stage trigger. I don't like two stage triggers.

Been hangin' out with Jim Zumbo, have ya?

That, and watch some videos of New Orleans after Katrina.

Whatever you guys do, don't get schitfaced and watch American Sniper.

You'll walk (stumble?) to the garage and rattle can your AR that really cool desert camo style.




Travis

What brand paint do you recommend?

The kind you find on your shelf.





Travis

Send me all of yours, now!

OK, which beer is best?

Colorado man?

Go with the Rangers.



Travis

OK. I'm learning here.

They're selling it in cans and 12 packs now. Makes high volume consumption much easier.



Travis

Excelsior! Need to see if we got it around here yet.

Beer cans are the user-friendly AR-15s of the drinking world!

It had to be said.

We do an annual youth "hi-power" clinic at our club. Generally its the kids in our youth shooting programs and their parents that participate. Once that assinine AWB ended and we had more ARs with CAR stocks, it got better for the kids.

Some years back, one of the parents made the comment afterwards, that his little girl had out-shot him at 100 yards, when participants were looking over the targets.



An org I belong to, often raffles off an AR or two each year.

Four or five years ago, I met one of the winners to transfer the rifle. Vietnam vet, told me over the phone that he didn't have much love for the platform, but WTH?

When I handed him his prize, noted that they'd "made a few improvements" since the days when he'd wielded one. Looked it over, said they were long overdue.

I wanted an AR15 at one time, but never bought one. The market is flooded with them now and the prices arent bad, S&Ws for $649, etc. Saw an Olympic Arms for $499 recently, and nobody seemed to be interested.

I never cared for an AR...untill I shot one. Now I'm in the process of moving some thing out so I can move something in.

Nobody is saying get rid of your traditional stuff, just be inclusive and get a bigger safe.

Mech defense triggers, single stage, 3 lbs $129. Feels just like my rem 700

They are also very popular because they work so accurate and work so good in the field. Even a cheap one will out group most expensive bolt guns. AR's are like Lays Potato Chips you can't have just one. They are addictive.

Let's see ... Why own a black rifle?

Yesterday, SWAT showed up on our road. They blocked off both ends, put spike strips everywhere and surrounded a home about fifty yards from us.

The owner of the home is a known drug dealer. Who knows what he sells to kids; meth, heroin, coke ... whatever.

Anyway, we had maybe twenty visible cops, several of them sniper sorts, visible all around our home. We had two cars in our driveway and two snipers actually in our back yard, peering at the drug dealer's home.

It was a standoff.

About a half hour from the time it started, a very nice SWAT guy with a serious AR (fitted with an ACOG) knocked on our back door. I answered and he advised us to "bunker down" and they'd have the "situation neutralized soon."

He without a doubt saw perhaps twenty heads of dead creatures upon our walls as he asked with a smile, "Are you armed?"

I answered, "Yes, a Noveske Thunder Ranch with an Aimpoint T-1."

He said, "Hell of a rig ... don't let anyone in your door until we signal All Clear"

About three hours later, the druggie was captured without incident in his home and the cops took his worthless ass away.

Now to the question: Could I have protected our home of 52 years with a Ruger Number One? Yep, but I sure as hell felt a lot more safe with my Noveske and a couple of 30-shot mags loaded with 50Ballistics.

In a modern world, one filled with Muzzie dickheads, violent druggies and total chaos, it just makes sense to have a deadly serious rifle with lots of firepower.

It simply makes things more peaceful and serene.

Steve

Hmmmm....

Single shots were the stuff of a revolution some years ago. They are useful in many circumstances.

Repeaters were the Indian's nemesis, and that of the Kaiser too. Let us not forget to mention his follow-on, Adolf and company.

Full auto is a nice option, but lacking that I see little reason to discriminate betwixt one or the other. One jerk, one shot. Given that one is left to argue in behalf of one cartridge or another.

The M16/CAR15 never let me down over the course of 2.5 years in SEA. Light and functional they were. Youngsters don't need optics for the most part unless their MOS includes sniping. Its successor, the M4 leaves me somewhat unimpressed.

Rather than rant on that point I'll just leave it at this:
This is America, land of the free....they say. Pick your poison and roll.

I'm fond of shotguns. And other stuff.

Whats fun is we all have our opinions.

What I like is that its SO accurate for a semi. And you can pop on all kinds of uppers.. to the same trigger... hence the same pull every time... beware that man with the same trigger every time he hunts.

As to looks, all I can say is I"ve always been of the group that a wrench is a tool, I want one that works really good. I could care less what that wrench looks like..

Should have seen this mod 70 bolt gun once.. with some wood target stock, that we rasped and bondo'd and painted primer gray sometimes... but we got that stock to fit so well the gun just drove tacks... that matters way more to me, than exterior looks.

What good is a walnut blue gun, that you have to baby, and worry about scratches and such.....

But like I said, as long as you aren't anti AR to the tune of Dumbo, I"m good with personal likes and dislikes.

I love my bold guns and The beauty of my 358 Win is a thing to behold. Until a month ago there was only one semi auto anything in my collection and it is a 1911 that resides on my hip as I write this. Then after all the liberal BS from the candidates and the imposter in the white house I bought one. As I write this it is about eight inches from my left hand and just like my 1911 it is loaded and ready. I have two ten round magazines with the five round blocks due to arrive Wednesday so I could use it for deer and such here. I have high hopes of seeing what it will do to coyotes this winter on the east side of the Cascades and maybe try calling in a cougar to try it out on. I even have been thinking about a cool air brush job for it and may be getting an airbrush kit in the next couple of months. I am thinking a cool looking snake skin pattern just so I can say it isn't black.

Yes, I think they could be fun but there is no way I would exchange the AR for any of my bolt guns.

What Steve said

Once upon a time, I was guarding my food plot down in south Texas, from my guard house. My weapon of choice was a BAR, rebored to .338-06, a semi-automatic.

I was invaded by a herd of pigs. I opened fire and got five for five, then I was empty. If I had been using an AR, I might have got two or three more, who knows? I have never owned one, they are just too ugly, but they do seem to work.

A Mini-14 is about as far as I can go. I may have lucked out, for mine is very decently accurate at just barely over an inch with two brands of factory ammo and topped with a 3-9 Redfield Revolution.

Its popular cause its the closest thing to a chameleon in the gun world. anyone in their own home can easily make it blend into the situation they need. and there are few that it cant do atleast moderately well given the range of parts and calibers. Its a very handy piece of kit to have in the tool box.

Yep, can't play tinkertoys with my old bolt guns.

AHHH, the tactical Hornet. What an idea. It give me one.

I shall now go reconnoiter the shelves of the local firearm establishment for a "beater" matchlock or arquebus to "tacticoolize".

On the serious side of things, I hope to get to town to pick up an AR this week, if not this week, over the winter while on furlough from work.

Just because.
Before they are banned.
In case of "Mars Attacks", The Zombie 'Pocalips, and or civil uprisings.
"emergency" hunting possibility
Uncle Geno's stimulus program

and
for "Fun"

Geno

Wow, I had no idea the response that I my tongue in cheek post would generate.

As I wrote before I can readily see the appeal in the AR-15 platform and I certainly never inferred in any way that anyone else shouldn't have one, but even their strongest advocate could never describe them as pleasing to the eye.

Zombies aren't here yet so I don't need a weapon that uses thirty round mags. I love my blued and walnut rifles. I'm grateful I don't have to transport them in a Pontiac Aztek or Nissan Cube, but visually they would be the perfect vehicles to carry the AR-15.

I’m probably part of the older group of people on this forum but I have to admit, when I first purchased and shot an AR a dozen or more years ago it was a moment of enlightenment. No doubt they don’t fit the needs of each and every person or every situation. But they do fulfill a multitude of roles including hunting and defense very well.

They shine when the weather doesn’t. Snow, rain and general crappy weather has little to no impact on an AR. When it’s like that, my wood and steel rifles stay in the safe and the ARs get pulled out to hunt coyotes, deer or just to shoot.

Are my ARs beautiful? I guess that depends on your description of beauty, they're utilitarian, you add to them what you need, so in that way they are pleasing to my eye, even the ugly one with the rattle can paint job.

Whether or not you love them or hate them recognize they are the face of shooting in the 21st century. They sell well and that in and of itself is great for all of us who value the right to keep and bear arms, because for our freedoms to continue we need new shooters to replace us old guys.

I'm definitely of the old school - heck I still collect single shot rifles. A dozen or more years ago I decided to grab an AR while they were still legal. I've now got a few, each set up a bit differently.

Good looking? Well, not in a traditional sense. Maybe more like in an automotive sense. The traditional rifle is a Duesenberg, while the AR is like a new Corvette

they can have sleek, clean lines:



and they can shoot very well, too...

Most humans are constrained by the era they grew up in, which is why and so many men still think the pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester is the ultimate centerfire rifle, and so many 50-something women still try to wear "big hair."

But I'm enough of a rifle loony to admire the entire history of rifles, ever since the rifled bore was developed, just about five centuries ago. While I like some more than others, the AR-15 "platform" is one of the best ever developed for any purpose, and why I own and use AR's, along with flintlocks and drillings. They're all part of us.

I wish there was a "like" button for MD's post.

I didn't like ARs when I first handled them at the LGS. Then one of my enabling "friends" got me curious and I started researching them. Let's just say I have the tools to work on them now. Turns out you can build a much nicer and better one for a whole lot less money than you can buy one already built.

One you build can be no-compromise from start to finish, exactly what you want it to be. No one manufacturer makes the best of everything. Even the high-end builders generally have a couple of products that are really well thought out, and then they assemble complete rifles around those showcase systems using average, high-quality components. When you build it yourself, every detail can be the best for your needs. This trigger, that grip, that handguard system, that bolt catch, this safety, that mag release, this buffer, that buffer tube, this stock, that barrel, this flash hider. There is work to be done understanding how all the different parts work together. But when you are done, there is only what you want. No leftover parts you paid for and then replaced with something better.

I think of them like the Jeep. Invented to go to war, and it was/is darn good at that job, but when we brought it home, we found a million peaceful jobs for it, and some non-job uses as well.

You can use it the way it comes, or build it into anything you want it to be. Some people just use them as a tool, because they get the job done like nothing else. Other people build them into the best possible tools they can. Other people build them just to build them. Other people invent new things to do with them, just so they can figure out new ways to build them.

That's America.

Terry Weiland (sp?) had a very good article in a recent issue of Rifle magazine concerning how the rifle world has evolved from walnut/blue to synthetic/stainless and AR's. Really an enjoyable read that pretty well covered the subject.

I am old school walnut/blue but do have some synthetic/stainless, I have tried to warm up to AR's a couple of times but I just can't do it. I do not have a bias against them or those who like them but they just don't work for me.

drover

bam bam bam bam bam
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What's not to like?

So how many here married for looks alone...... just saying... this thing of how the rifle looks is nuts to me.

One of my other rifles is all black too... its a bolt gun. Is all black ugly?

I'll take an ugly rifle that shoots group over a pretty one that patterns.

In fact that's pretty much my only criteria on when a gun gets kicked to the curb, if it doesn't shoot to my criteria or use for the gun, down the road it goes.

We know that bolt actions, and many cartridges like the 30-06, 223, 303 British and 45-70 all started with the military. So it went with the AR and the 223/5.56

Even today, military requirements strongly influence the civilian market. Red dots, plastic stocks, AR platforms, and other things originally were developed for them. Who'd a thunk that levers would have funky plastic stocks or use red dots (Mossberg)?

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. I like black matte synthetic stocks because you can beat them up, they weather better and are easier to repair. There's nothing wrong with wood, but speaking from an armourer's perspective, bedding, repairing and refinishing stocks is a PITA.

Wood stocks are more costly than plastic and when in need of repair, remain longer with the gun doctor.

Something that usually isn't talked about much when discussing the civilian use of military arms (and cartridge development) is the huge amount of money that has been thrown at them for improvements.

Look at the no. of changes to the original AR platform and the ammunition. Lots of time, money and sweat was expended making them feed better, handle heavier bullets and shoot more accurately. The same can be said of the cartridge.

You don't have to like the AR or plastic stocks, but your children, and most definitely your grandchildren, will own them in a wide variety of cartridges. They are rapidly replacing the bolt action as the most commonly used platform.

And wood? Well, that will be something relegated to history. Most hunters and shooters will not shoot a wood stocked rifle, unless it's a hand-me-down or a custom build.

Polymers are the norm these daze.

And the future?

I guess the thing that I don't really get is if you want to hunt you can buy a much more accurate rifle for less $. Even a low cost AR will be $600 and most of the out of the box $600 AR's Ive been around are not that accurate. I have seen some that shoot quite well but everyone that I have seen that can shoot a good group had a new heavier barrel and this and that added or done to get it to shoot and by that time most are in the $1000 and up range sometimes much more. Most of the good shooters are also quite heavy due to the heavier barrels etc. Just not my cup of tea I guess.

yeah but I have about $100 into tools that make me a decent gunsmith on an AR, least as much as i need to be on the hobby level...and it is easy to make an AR accurate, just pay attention to the barrel and trigger choices....

I like that Corvette analogy. They still have plastic bodies, don't they?

Fibreglas.

I got my Colt AR-15 almost 30 years ago, in mint condition off the used rack of a LGS. It's an early one- three digit serial number (3xx)- and it has the original Colt 3x scope too. I take it out once in a blue moon to keep it "limbered up". It'll group good ammo into an inch, with the scope attached, and a fair bit more than that with the iron sights. Do I like it? Yeah, I guess, but it's not my cuppa tea- walnut and blued steel is still what delights me. Will I part with it? Nope, because I feel an American rifleman should have an AR at hand in the spirit of our forebears going back 200+ years who were generally as well armed as the servicemen of their respective eras. (I actually sold it to a friend a few years after buying it, then had a chance to buy it back along with a couple other guns- sometimes it is possible to right a wrong decision from one's past.)

As much as I think myself to be a slow and deliberate shooter, god help me but it is a hoot to rip through a magazine-full at a row of clay targets set up on the berm. (And yes for those who know me, I do have some cast bullet loads worked up for it! Gotta save the barrel a little bit- I hate to have to try and find an original barrel with the three prong flash hider to replace this one if I wear it out.)

I can remember a bunch of salty old guys 50-odd years ago who b*tched up a storm over the advent of these things. To be honest with you, I took their comments to heart-- right up until the moment I fired my first one. Will I eschew the guns I love and become a died-in-the-wool AR fanatic? Not hardly, but it is good to be a little bit well rounded.

fiberglass

I shot my first AR-15 this past weekend. It was my friend's rifle which only had iron sights.

It was fun to shoot, no doubt about that. While it recoiled very little, as expected, I did notice something different about the recoil compared to a bolt action rifle.

To me, it seems like there was three recoil "pulses" that I could feel. My best guess, one of the of recoil impulses was from the firing the actually cartridge, the second was perhaps the bolt carrier coming back, then the third and last recoil impulse I felt was perhaps the bolt carrier returning?

Does that make sense? Not saying the recoil was bad as it wasn't. But it definitely felt different than the recoil from a bolt action. Anyone else feel that difference?

I like most firearms as long as they are steel and walnut. I'm getting used to the stainless fad, but I'm not sure it is here for the long run.

As far as the AR Platform goes, I'm still working on it. I have one and believe I've turned the corner with it. I took off all the un necessary stuff, put on a plain butt stock, a good barrel that is light n short, a small diameter fore end, a red dot sight, a sling and called it good. It is light, accurate enough and fun to shoot. Best of all it is reliable. It still isn't natural feeling like a rifle should be, but I'm working on that...

The buffer and spring ride in the stock and it's likely the buffer movement and spring noise next to your cheek that you are noticing.

Probably folks coouldn't shoot. Its rare to find an AR of any quality, that won't shoot MOA or less with the right loads....BALL is not the right loads...

There are indeed many keystrokes wasted on arfcom debating the relative accuracy of ammo that ranges 1.5-3 MOA at best, and how to evaluate such properly.

Easy to eval... don;t' shoot the crap.

Over the years I witnessed a bunch of yeahoots at the range spraying patterns at 50 yards with their ARs wearing crap optics using crap ammo. Seemed to me the short ones were ridiculously loud too and held off getting one. Recently though got offered a square deal on a used RRA Predator Pursuit 20 and shooting Fed Am Eagle 50gr Tipped Varmit rounds I'm really liking it. Definitely prone to go thru a bunch of ammo though, not because of misses but because of the hits! It's a hoot.

I noticed that weird recoil too. I did not like it.

You probably live in the south.

Brand new Colt. 16" barrel. Bone stock. Iron sights @ 100yds.

Two different types of factory ammo:

The buffer tube and twang that comes with it take some getting used to for some shooters. Other never even notice it.



Travis

Semi autos do not turn me off. I have used BARs for years and still own one high grade in .30-06. The gas system brings recoil down to a level where an old guy on blood thinners can easily live with it. BUT, it is too heavy for an old guy to pack afield, so it is limited to stand hunting over food plots or feeders, or from a hide overlooking a game trail. Most BARs that I have owned shot somewhere between a half inch ((a .270 was the best of the bunch for accuracy) to an inch and a quarter

I do not own an AR. My original excuse was that life is too short to hunt with an ugly rifle. Then there was the publicity of troubles with the early ones. These two are now things of the past. I have had two Mini-14s. The original version was so so accurate (under 2") and the replacement, a black and stainless newer version is really close to an inch shooter with two brands of factory soft point and Lake City surplus.

I'm not ruling out a future AR, but for now I'm content. Today, my biggest objection is that some of the guys who use them get quite obnoxious at the range that I frequent. That is not the gun's fault.

Sometimes one does need firepower. I once went five for five with my BAR when a herd of pigs attacked my food plot in South Texas. If I had been shooting an AR, maybe I could have bagged a couple more.

Jack

I like my AR rifles. Don't see any need for justification beyond that.

You think that's weird? Try a gun with a heavier reciprocating mass like an AK or an AR-10! The bolt return on an AR-10 feels like it's dragging the rifle forward.

This. Where I work the Call of duty game shooters, in their thirties and now forties, significantly outnumber the veterans. They are buying up Ar-15s, with only a few going for good bolt guns. Those bolt guns are almost always black as well. It is a fashion choice I have noticed for years. Urban gun shops versus rural gun shops almost always equals Hollywood (Arnold, the Matrix, Fast, any John Woo type movies) versus reality and tradition. But at least the new gun owners are realizing their rights are precious.

I find the AR to be an amazingly accurate platform right outta the box. Very little need for all the bedding, reloading, and other bull$hit we go through to make our bolt guns shoot that well.

Mine is .223 so I use it for coyotes and stuff, but a 308 as a pig gun would be uber.

I never noticed three recoil pulses but did notice a metallic "sproingy" noise transmitted through my cheekbone from the action cycling. I never had this with an M1 or M1A.

Henry your just stirring the pot.