To John Barsness,

I've seen the True Angle tool mentioned in several of your articles. I'm certainly interested in finding one, but doing and Internet search only brings up protractors. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

Also, how have you managed to keep bullet runout from being an issue with standard dies, especially with flat based bullets? Have you gone to the competition style seaters for all your die sets?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Not Barsness but this should help finding the tool.

http://www.trutool-equipment.com/TruAngle%20Guide.pdf

Thanks Carbon12!

It's pretty easy to make one.Use 2&1/2" x 2&1/2" aluminum angle.

Drill a hole about 3/4" from the end of the leg of the angle, a few thousandths bigger in diameter than the OD of the case you want to straighten. You can space several holes for other calibers along the length of the angle

Either drill a couple of hole on the other leg to bolt down to your bench or just clamp it down.



You do need a concentricty gage along with one.

Check your round on the gage to see where it is off.I mark mine with a black marker. Stick the round in to the hole in the angle with the black mark up and GENTKY push either up or down depending on which way you want to straighten the round. Recheck on the gage.

After a few tries you will get a feel of how much force you have to apply

Check your private messages. (The little flashing envelope.)

Not JB but after following him here and various magazines for years I can tell you his biggest method of controlling runout is by sorting his brass for case neck thickness variances. As someone who has been down the path of chasing runout issues (to the point of turning necks for some rifles) it cannot be stressed enough how big an impact lopsided case neck thicknesses can affect runout. The biggest reason is that when you seat the bullet (regardless of bullet base or seating die) the thinner side of the case neck will stretch first allowing the bullet to seat off center.

Your sizing die is the next largest culprit. He has made several mentions of how to adjust standard dies to help reduce runout in his magazine articles and books, even here. For RCBS dies the first possibility is to screw the expander button all the way to the top so that the case is better supported by the die as it is drawn back over the button. If that doesn't work, size in one operation without the decapping rod in the die. Then in another operation put the decapping rod back in the die (loose) and push the case mouth over the expanding button. This should help runout but only if case neck thickness is even / concentric.

Seating dies typically have less effect on runout than the previous two but they can make a difference. I would first try to eliminate case neck runout and then decide if you need to address the seating dies.

War Eagle, thanks for the advice.

I've already followed the other steps you mention. I've been sorting my brass (culling would probably be a better term) by neck thickness.

I also decap with a separate die, then resize with a very straight decapping rod (checked on my concentricity gauge) and pulled all the way up into the die, so when the expander ball is pulled through the neck, the brass is still supported by the die so it can't be pulled out of center. Basically exactly what you suggest, and it's kept everything very straight.

So far these steps have worked pretty well.

On my 300 win, and my 7-08's I've bought the competition seaters which are great, but still end up with some run out on some cases. The worse ones are about .003 out, but trying to keep it as low as possible.

That's where the original question comes from, because I have a bunch of standard dies, and I want to load for those other calibers trying to maintain this same level of fighting run out. The standard dies don't support the bullets/brass to the same extent as the competition dies, so I've been worried getting more run out by not starting the bullet out perfectly straight as I seat.

Thanks again for the reply!

Unless you have a custom cut chamber, you will never see any difference in accuracy for .003 and less. JB has posted many times that he does not see any appreciable difference until the run out is .005 or more. Typically a production run of the shelf rifle does not have the concentricity of the centerline of the barrel vs the chamber needed to make a difference.

Not John, obviously...

Another idea is to use a Lee Collet Neck sizing die. It seems to produce concentric rounds, maybe not as sensitive to neck wall uniformity. The down side, occasionally a body sizer will be needed to set the shoulder back for easy chambering.

The Lee seater is pretty good, too. I also use Wilson seaters and like the Bonanza/Hornady set up.

I use the Sinclair gauge and Tru Angle to fine tune finished rounds. Seems to work.

DF

What Dirtfarmer said.

So how do you deprime the case? Do you just run the brass through like normal to de prime then run the decap/expander back up and run the brass through again?

I use a maple block rather than aluminum to make slight corrections.

No, that would cold work the brass an extra cycle.

I deprime with an inexpensive Lee depriming die.

I can see that tool being useful if run out is related to a bent or misaligned assembly. I think one would be ahead, however, by determining the root cause (dies, expanders, neck wall issues, donuts, etc) and correcting that problem.

After addressing all "root causes", it's still a good idea to see how close you are. And, if some minor adjusting is in order, it's not hard to do.

I've found some rounds are sensitive to mild pressure in the Tru Angle, others seem to take a lot. You have to develop the right touch for the round being worked.

DF

I deprime with a Frankford Aresenal depriming tool. Works slick, and doesn't work the brass at all. The brass goes into the FL Die one time, and as stated above, has the decapping rod/expander ball as high up in the die body as possible, so when the expander ball is drawn through the case mouth, the neck is still supported by the die body.

As mentioned above, I'm not having problems or worries at this stage. Everything is hunky dory! My process to this point has resulted in brass that's very straight, and was pre-sorted/culled for neck thickness uniformity. What I'm trying to see is if anyone, JB included, has a trick way of getting the bullets to seat straight with standard dies. Especially flat base bullets like Hornady Interlocks and Nosler Partitions. My Comp Dies do a good job, but I have a butt load of standard dies, and don't really want to have to go purchase these expensive dies for all the calibers I load for.

Mathman gave me some pretty good advice, by suggesting setting the standard seater up to only get the bullet started into the case mouth. By doing this, the brass neck would be mostly supported in the die body, starting the bullet seating straight. Then afterwards, setting the die up to seat to the correct depth on a second pass. Seems logical, and I'll probably give this a shot.

Thanks for the replies.

And, I ordered the TruAngle Tool last night. Thanks for the direction to finding their website.

A slight flare of the case mouth can make a significant difference in case run out when seating flat base bullets. I've used the lee universal case expander and the Lyman M-die. You don't need or want too much bell of the case mouth.