Can anyone recommend a good copper fouling remover that lets you know when your barrel is free of copper. I have been using Barnes CR 10 but want to get away from the ammonia, in the winter it makes it tough to clean my guns because I need to keep my garage door open to keep from inhaling the amonia and it can get cold even in the day time. I tried Hopppes elite and MP Pro but they are gummy and sticky and leave residue in the chamber and the patches never came out clean even after repeating the process several times. At least the Barnes let you know when the barrel was copper free when the patches showed no blue color.

Have you tried Wipeout?

I have been using Wipeout Patch-Out with great results. I use patches only, let first application in barrel for about 2 hours. Patch it out and apply again, letting it set overnight. No chemical smell, safe for barrel steel, and You wouldn't believe the blue patches from a barrel that You think is clean.

^^ This ^^. It works just as stated.

I used to clean my barrels but stopped cleaning the hunting rifles.

Of late I have been making sure each rifle hits right on with the first shot from it's cold barrel.

They seem to do well when I shoot them with fouled bores.

Today the Kimber 7mm WSM put two 110 gr TTSX's right on at 200 yds.

And the 300 Win mag put two 155 gr VLD's right on at 200 yds into 1.5".

I use two things to remove copper depending upon how quickly I want to remove it. If I have all night I use wipe out foam and let it sit over night. If I need it done quickly the I use KG-12, it works better than any ammonia based cleaner I've seen.

Neither will really tell you if the bore is free of copper. I've found the best way to tell is a flashlight shined in the muzzle end.

Do you shoot enough to need to clean them?

Yesterday I mounted and sighted in four scopes on one hunting rifle, then I did some practice/plinking at 300 yards on paper and a gong with each scope. About eighty rounds were fired.

I like to shoot ten shots at 300 yards to see what I've really got.

Holland's Witches Brew.

A lot faster than CR-10 and pleasant smelling.

Wont turn jags black either.

A Hawkeye borescope is the only real way to tell if all the copper is gone, but copper fouling wont hurt unless it accumulates or the gun isnt shooting well.

Wipeout with their Accelerator
I also use Holland's Witches Brew

One independent test found the Wipe-Out Accelerator could cause light pitting. Plain Wipe-Out didn't.

I use Wipe-Out (either foam or Patch-Out) or Montana X-Treme. The X-Treme products are the most effective cleaners I've found that you can leave in the bore, based on what my bore-scope shows, but they ain't exactly vapor-free....

I just spit on my patches...

I spent a hour on Wipe-out's site. They've got lots to read. I've been using MP-7 and MP-7 Cooper Remover. It's far from effortless.

I too use a bore scope. It's a double edged sword...

I'm going to give Wipe-Out a try.

Thanks for he heads up JB re: the Accelerator.

I've found a bore-scope most useful for testing cleaning products.

There are a few other good uses, such as making sure the bore is REALLY clean when in stalling Dyna-Tek Bore Coat, or using fire-lapping to smooth a worn throat.

But as far as being able to tell whether an individual bore will shoot more accurately, or even foul more than another--nope!

Prior to MP-7, I used Boretech. Before that I used Butch's and before that Shooters Choice Cooper Remover. I still use regular Shooter Choice mixed 50/50 with Kroil. Like everybody else, I already have a lifetime supply of cleaning products and gun oils. In fact, the only one I remember discarding is Sweets, fearing it would mistakenly get mixed with Shooters.

While I refuse to buy anymore gun oil, my belief that science will deliver a better way to clean a bore perseveres.

JB, which of the 14 products bearing the Montana X-Treme name would you pit against Wip-out?

Used to use Wipeout foam, but have switched to KG for all my cleaning. Much faster and less mess.

Well, much like JB I've been using Wipe Out or Patch Out (usually with Accelerator) or Montana Extreme Copper Killer when in a hurry.
Hadn't heard of the Accelerator causing pitting, now I will stop using it.

Mr B,

Hoping this finds you and Eileen in fine fettle.

I will make a grand assumption, leap of faith, and so on, that the "independent test" was performed by a reliable source, seeing as how you are mentioning it here on the 'fire.

Did this pitting occur with periodic use over time or just a one time application?

If it's easier than answering a myriad of questions, a link would be helpful as I believe I have some of that stuff in my cleaning arsenal and don't want to cause undue harm to the equipment.

Thanks in advance,

Geno

PS, spring is here and with it fresh greens. I hope you get to enjoy some.

John,
You could not be a tad more specific on the testing for Wipe-Out Accelerator without causing anyone grief could you?

Regards, Matt.

Most of the time I clean my rifles before I get home. At least run a boresnake with some CLP thru 'em.Check the bores now and then with a light...so far so good

Amazing how few on this site know how to clean a rifle but this is about the worst advice you will get, this is like saying my car still runs why change the oil or air filter run em till they quit !!!!

As to the OP, about the best and easiest copper cleaner I have found is Bore Tech Eliminator. No smell and works better than ammonia based cleaners. If you want to clean copper only they make a product called CU+2 copper remover but then you have to use a carbon cleaner also, the Eliminator does both.

it does not take much copper in a barrel before accuracy starts being affected.

KG12 is a good product. Some mentioned here in this thread works are poor performers.

Montana Extreme Copper cream on a plastic brush or patches will clean a gun in a hurry, it is similar to what you might describe as JB suspended in oil.

JB, of course, is a fantastic product to remove copper.

The only problem with JB is, it works mechanically so it removes not only copper but steel. I'd like to hear others' take on it, but personally I'm reluctant to use it in my barrels repeatedly, long-term. Whereas I don't worry about a product like Wipeout that removes copper chemically, without affecting the steel.

I have a couple copper fouling mutha' of 243's that get the JB treatment about once a year.

But like you, I use it sparingly.


Casey

Now you tell me about Accelerator........

Been using it with Patch Out for a couple years now, and occasionally soaking a bore. I don't have a bore scope, but haven't noticed any pitting--but then again one of those barrels is pretty rough so it's tough to see if there is any pitting.....

And yes, the vapors in Montana Extreme are a bit much in the winter with the windows closed.......


Casey

The test was quite a while ago, and I've lost the link, but basically a bunch of solvents were left in short lengths of the same barrel for a certain period, in controlled humidity. As I recall the period was 24 hours, though it could have been longer, and the test might have even been done over two different periods. Wipe-Out without Accelerant showed no pitting, but with Accelerant it did.

I will also note that bore pitting doesn't have to be large enough to be visible to the naked eye to affect fouling.

Will also note, on a slightly different subject, that Dan Lilja is convinced that regular use of JB Compound will increase fouling of bores, by making them too smooth. Dan has some very sophisticated equipment for looking inside barrels, and has performed a bunch of experiments on bore surfaces.

I became convinced he was correct about JB after putting together a .338 Winchester Magnum many years ago. The barrel (not a Lilja) proved to be very accurate, but something of a fouler, and back in those days there wasn't any copper solvent you could leave in the bore without risking pitting. I grew very weary of pushing a solvent-soaked patch through the bore every 15 minutes to get the damn thing clean, so started JB'ing it every time accuracy started to fall off.

But the fouling started building up quicker, even though the bore looked VERY smooth through my Hawkeye. Eventually the rifle would only go 20 rounds maximum before accuracy started falling off, and by then the bore was so copper-coated it just about complete filled the bore, and was very visible even at the muzzle. Cleaning with JB even took longer.

I was about to give up and rebarrel the rifle, when Dyna-Tek Bore Coat appeared. After some experimentation with other rifles, I tried it in the .338 barrel. One application definitely helped, and two reduced fouling to the point where I now only clean it every 75 rounds or so, with a "passive" application or two of Montana X-Treme, because copper build-up is minimal. In fact, those results are what REALLY convinced me of the worth of DBC.

I have been using Sweets for years and though I have tried some of the "newer" concoctions mentioned above I do not see changing. Yeah, it stinks.

Freddy,

Wipe Out is all I use anymore. In addition, I have treated all of my rifle bores with Dyna Bore Coat, and since, copper fouling, etc. have become very minimal.

As far as a mess with the Wipe-Out foam??? If you use a good bore guide that seals the chamber (Sinclair) there is no mess. I apply the foam from the muzzle until it starts coming out of the end of the guide, wipe it off the guide and the muzzle and let it sit overnight. Push what's left in the bore out with a few patches. Done. Sorry to butt in on the Writer's forum, but I just had to say how easy it is with Wipe-Out. And I don't use the accelerator.

Yeah, Wipe-Out's pretty simple. I just put a fired case in the chamber to keep it from oozing into the action.

I am sold on Dyna Bore Coat and I suspect, Bore Shield. The next couple of weeks will decide the latter. It sure leaves the matte stainless finish feeling like glass, clearly well "sealed". I shall see how durable it is.

For Wipe-Out, just use the tube that attaches to the nozzle. No mess at all.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/237658/sharp-shoot-r-wipe-out-applicator-spout

Ed,

Will be very interested in your report. Both on the gun stuff and the rest!

If you want to leave a cleaner in the barrel, Wipe Out is good; sometimes need something else after.

Or for quicker cleaning, Butch's to remove powder fouling & either KG-12 or Boretech Eliminator work well for me......I think the BTE is a little more effective than KG-12. Both are far more effective, IMO, than Sweet's.

I've not used Montana X-treme.

Butch's has a little smell; KG-12 & BTE, don't smell.

Dyna Bore Coat does help a lot but I've not found it to completely eliminate copper fouling on some guns.

MM

Re: "Bore Shield" do you mean "Gun Shield"?

MD,

Thanks for the info on the test.

I'll not be using the Accelerator overnight, not that I have found a need to yet. Mostly just the Wipe-Out.

Geno

Yep. I put the rifle in the barrel vise, with the muzzle tilted down slightly and a trash can under it. Then cram the hose right into the chamber, seals it tight. Give it a squirt until some foam runs out the muzzle, then stuff a big cleaning patch in the chamber to keep the liquid (the foam liquifies overnight) out of the chamber.

No muss, no fuss.

John,
Much obliged on the information on Wipe Out Accelerator. That being said I am using it akin to Chris Harris from Bullet Central and NOT leaving accelerator in the bore over night. I don't think he is leaving it in the bore long enough to damage anything(as in minutes). Take a look at his video and see what you think. I would be very much be interested in your thoughts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOdeIUvmEEs

I bought a beautifully machined melonited BAT VR(integral lug & rail) and a Bix'n Andy Varmint Trigger from these guys and they really go above and beyond to make you happy with the sale. Nothing is cheap, however, service is superb, $17.55 S&H from North Dakota with $2200 of gear, and it arrived in two days including the day it was ordered. Not to mention NOT having to deal with Bruno's Shooter Supply. No more gouge...

Regards, Matt.

Matt,

From what it sounds like, WO with accelerant should be used like older water-based solvents: Pushing another patch through every 15 minutes or so keeps the solvent from oxidizing, which is when pitting starts. I'm just getting to be too lazy in my old age, so use solvents that can be left in the bore safely. Some of those work very fast as well, when I want/need to clean a bore quickly.

Sounds like a good deal! I order a lot of stuff on the Internet, but got such a case of sticker shock the first time I looked at Bruno's prices I haven't been back since.

MD-
"Copper solvent" covers a multitude of commercial concoctions. Some could certainly pit a bore if left in it for a while, back in those days. However, Hoppe's No.9 could be left in a bore almost indefinitely. I'm not sure whether it meets your definition of "copper solvent".

The copper solvent in No.9 used to be ammonium stearate, but nowadays it's ammonium oleate. (Both are derived from long-chain 18-carbon fats, with the stearate completely saturated and the oleate mono-unsaturated.) These aren't the fastest acting solvents, but they will eventually get the job done.

Old timers used to clean their rifles after hunting season, and leave some Hoppe's in the bore during storage, mostly as a rust preventative. After some months just before the start of the next season, when they ran a patch through the barrel they would be amazed at the gobs of green goo that came out of the bore on the cleaning patch.

Elmer Keith recommended rifle storage with Hoppe's in the bore.

No.9 Benchrest uses the same solvent, but it's augmented with one of the synthetic amines that also removes copper. It cleans somewhat faster than No.9 in my experience.

--Bob

Montana Extreme works well. It's very rarely too cold in NC to open a window and run a fan. Maybe try a respirator?

If you really need to remove any significant level of copper fouling, you'll grow old before Hoppe's #9 does the job completely compared to many of the new materials...........just sayin'.

MM

Bob,

Have heard that info about the change in #9 before, perhaps from you.

All I know is it used to get copper out years ago, when left in long enough. Or at least it appeared to, before I had a bore-scope.

Then, t number of years ago, #9 quit working, at least in a normal human lifespan. Tried #9 Benchrest and it worked a little better, maybe as well as the original #9.

After buying a bore-scope maybe 10-12 years ago started letting it decide how much copper was removed, and how fast. Found out some products that were considered hot stuff didn't remove much copper, or at best worked very slowly.

But also started experimenting with not cleaning bores, and seeing how long accuracy held up. Of course, it depends on how accuracy is defined, but found a lot of barrels could go a long time, often several hundred rounds, before accuracy dropped off.

As a result, I don't clean barrels unless they need it anymore, but when I do, prefer something that will do it either in less than an hour or overnight, depending on my schedule. As a result, haven't used any of the Hoppe's products in quite a while.

John,
Thank you for taking a look at that video. Always appreciate your take...

Regards, Matt.

I'm a chemical junkie and am always lured by the claims. After much, much work and trials, I use Boretech Eliminator when in a hurry, and wipeout if not.

I use Dyna Bore Coat in the rifles that may be shot more than a few dozen rounds.

What is the opinion on Tipton Remarkable? I have tried it recently, to find it is quite strong on copper, and am surprised to not seeing it mentioned.

It is strongly ammonia based and I do not leave it on the bore but a few minutes, using it locally on thespots theat my Hawkeye shows copper after an overnight treatment with Forrest foam, a product locally available and pretty much like WO.

thank you for your comments.

I am a Boretech convert myself. I have tried just about everything on the market. Among the liquids it is the fastest and cleanest, can be used indoors since the smell is not offensive. Of course, nothing comes close to my Foul Out III electro chemical bore cleaner.

As a gunsmith, most of the pitting I've seen that supposedly came from copper solvents, was in stainless barrels and from having the stuff left in for long periods (12+ hours). But some can be a problem. Chrome moly steel is less prone to it. I used to use Shooters Choice, but have switched to Montana extreme. But heed to warning someone gave about the fumes. A close sniff will knock you out! I scrub with a bronze brush & solvent. Let sit an hour, scrub with the brush again and then clean with patches and leave with Montana extreme light synthetic oil (no additives).
I still use old Hoppe's #9 as a powder solvent: not because it's any better, but because the smell reminds me of my youth .
I turkey hunted last month with a rep from the company that owns Hoppes now. Vista Outdoors He said as they'd made improvements, they worked hard to keep that smell..

I live near the Texas Gulf Coast and humidity here is very high. So I don’t know if it is wise to leave powder fouling in the barrel if I don’t expect to fire the gun for a few weeks. Before I put the gun up, I run Boretech Eliminator thru to get the powder fouling out and then a patch with Eezox oil on it. I too am a believer in Boretech products.

As I have time I am putting Dyna-Bore Coat in all my guns. It has made a big difference in reducing fouling. So for I have not tried Gun Coat but I purchased some to try.

For you guys that don’t clean you rifle until accuracy falls off I have a question. Do you mean you don’t clean down to the steel of the barrel or that you don’t even run a rod thru to knock out the powder fouling.

Thanks for your help.

Yeah, I keep some Hoppe's around for powder fouling too, even though I don't use many dirty-burning powders anymore. The smell is part of it, but mostly I just like to have one of the bottles on my bench!

One of the big changes in #9 was the elimination of nitrobenzene in the formula. Apparently, it was a health risk. No doubt responsible for my grandfather's early departure at 94. Dad, at only 90, is still holding on and looks forward to an extended lifespan since his gun room has been nitrobenzene free for the last twenty years. I still have about a quart of the old stuff and use it though I know it is a gamble. I have stopped using it as an aftershave; mostly just to conserve my stock. GD

For us we'd clean about every 300 or 400 rounds, NOTHING in between. That was welcome as we used to clean every 88 shots IE every match.. that got old really quickly...

To keep the gun running, we'd wipe the inside of the AR upper out and lube, and wipe off the bolt carrier group and lube and stick back in every match...

Turk1961,

I don't even run a rod through, but again I quit using dirty-burning smokeless powders a number of years ago. In fact I haven't cleaned my rifle barrels during a prairie dog shoot in many years, thanks both to cleaner-burning powders and DBC.

This is a very timely thread for me, as I spent several hours of my time last night reading on this subject.

Like others, I've used Hoppes No. 9, Sweets, KG-12, Wipe-Out, Ad Nauseam and am currently using Bore Tech products for the removal of powder, carbon and copper fouling.

I have a question about KG-12 since it etches copper; yes I know copper is softer than barrel steel, but I have read that solvents that etch copper will also etch barrel steel over time. Can anyone provide feedback on that?

I don't see softness as a principal factor. Pure gold is very soft, yet unaffected by most chemicals.

As I believe was mentioned earlier some solvents containing ammonia will, with time, allow oxidation to occur and this does eat steel. It isn't the solvent per se.

To be as nice as possible, savage99 is an idiot. He shoots 2 shot groups and brags about it. My best advice is to do exactly the opposite as what he says and you'll be golden. As for what I use too keep copper fouling to a minimum, it's (and has been for years) shooters choice. I clean my rifles after every session. It's just routine, as it has been since I was 12. My rifles are not finicky and are very accurate. Their clean cold bore shots are never more than 1" from the cluster of bullet holes in the group. When I buy a used rifle with a crusty/copper fouled barrel, I use sweets and follow the directions. Some have been downright dirty, but the sweets seems to get the copper out. That's the only time I use the stuff, so a bottle will last years... . Oh by the way, I change my oil every 5,000 miles religiously too...

Excellent point pertaining to pure gold and I understand your last paragraph. Perhaps you've answered my question and I've just missed it, but......will the KG-12 eventually etch the barrel steel?

During my marathon reading/research last night I read on 6mmbr.com that several bench rest shooters avoided it because it eventually etched their barrels.

I don't know about KG-12. My referral was to some prior discussion of how Sweet's can allow for etching of the steel. If you keep refreshing it in the bore it doesn't have time to oxidize and cause problems. The Sweet's itself eats copper, but it's the oxygen rusting the steel.

We buy Hoppes #9 by the case at work as Lycoming specifies it to removing carbon from injector nozzles! Tempest also specs it for removing fouling from fine wire plugs (iridium plugs). I put it in a beaker and run the stuff in the ultrasonic cleaner and speeds it up by about 1000%.

Thanks, Dennis, that's very interesting info!

Someone could make a small fortune if they made a scented Christmas tree that smelled like Hoppes #9.

FWIW and IMHO, Kroil works as good or better than most any specified gun/powder solvent for me.

My test is either 22's or a stainless wheelgun shot with a ton of cast bullets and wax based lubes.

Eats wax and carbon like a champ.

The old alchemist that I used to know only left me the formula for converting lead into gold but no instructions regarding copper conversion.

Thanks for the positive suggestions posted in this thread. There are a few products that I haven't known about that I will try.

Bore Tech Copper Remover, patches come out blue so I assume it works!

It works, alright.

When the blue is gone, so's the copper.

MM