Nice article. But hard for old foggies to accept. But nice anyhow.

Very compelling post.

It was for the gun writer - Mule Deer

I don't have a lot going on this week, what magazine was it in? That sounds like a fun article to read.

July RIFLE


Mike

Bugger,

Glad you liked it.

Yeah, technological change is sometimes hard to accept! I know a lot of hunters had a difficult transition from black powder to smokeless.

Showing your age there just a bit.

Not really. Heard it from Ingwe.

Well you have me there!

But the transition from smokeless back to Holy Black is soooo easy.

Long live the 1874 Sharps!!!

Ed

Yeah, I prefer black in many ways myself, especially in falling-block single-shots, because they're so easy to clean!

I missed that one myself.

Is the shrinkage in BG rifles in response to the deer reaching the size of burrito beans?

or was that due to scopes getting bigger?

Now, I want to get out my 1885 45-90. Just one question: "Where can I buy a temp insensitive BP?"

Good God, sir.

This is a family site.




Dave

Doh!

Once you go Black you never go back?

Dave,

I always thought the Campfire was one of the most tolerant sites on the Internet....

OK, the contest for funniest tongue-in-cheek comment of the year is officially over, and it's only early May.

It's tough to put down, that's for sure.

Ed

AMEN! Preach it, Brother John!

Ed

We are only tolerant of stupidity.

How else would I achieve this post count?




Dave

Did you ask him about how tough it was going from flint to percussion?

Or matchlock to flinter???

Spear to matchlock.

What was the gist of the article?

Shrinking as in smaller calibers, lighter rifles or both?

Both.

MD

Does your wife know?

It seems to me that women and kids have always been able to slay big game with smaller calibers and smaller rifles.

Looks like the men are finally catching up to the women and children...

Guys killing hogs with 223s now.

That was not sporting in 1976

Jim,

My wife has offended a few men over the years by pointing out exactly that--but only men who deserved to be offended.

I'll admit it. I shrank mine down a bit. Went backwards and a little oldschool though. You know they were making 11 oz scopes way back when, but this McMillan chit is the chit!!! :




Sorry for detouring the thread. I know you old fu cks like talking about your shriveled and shrinking junk...

The second deer I ever killed was shot with a .25-06. Despite being hit perfectly on a broadside shot, it ran zig-zagging 100 yards and left almost no blood trail, and it was not easy to find. The bullet had actually deflected off a rib and exited out the bottom of the doe's belly, a very strange wound.

After that point I moved up to the .270, and had nothing but bang-flops with it.

A few years later, I obtained a chronograph, and realized I'd been somewhat under-loading the .25-06. Also realized the 100gr Ballistic Tip was at the time considered a varmint bullet by Nosler. So those factors may have explained the funky wound.

Fast forward a few more years, I drop down to .223 and take a spike in good order, then take Dad's old .25-06 out, this time loaded smartly with a 110 Accubond, and get a good quick kill.



So yeah I've moved down in cartridges some, but I still think bigger holes are seldom a bad thing

I look forward to reading the article. I have been a skeptic about .22 cal bullets for deer sized animals. This said, I have never seen a deer shot with a .22 cal. There seem to be a bunch of folks with much more hunting experience than me stating that they work great. I have shot several deer that were quartering toward me. Does one pass on this shot with a .223 or similar loaded with appropriate bullets?

I don't think I'd use a .22 of any flavor for big deer, though I know people do it with good bullets. I used a 65 Sierra Gameking on the buck above; it broke the onside humerus bone, and separated core & jacket, but still killed well with the deer only going about 30 yards. I'd probably stick with either Barnes or Partitions in the future, for deer under 200 lbs.

Stand by, the villagers will be along shortly, festooned with pitchforks, torches and rope...

22 is too big.17 or 20 cal is plenty big for deer.

I have shot a lot of big game with .22 caliber rifles.. Ok when things are good, but I still feel like it is stunt shooting..

Meh.

Come to think of it, I did just buy a .375 H&H Whitworth, maybe I'll use it this year...

...or I could use a .218 Bee and really get some old fogeys distressed...

Actually, they would probably be armed with salad forks, wooden matches, and kite string.

Very interesting comment. Nowadays the emphasis seems to be on what can be done with a certain cartridge. Back in the day, as I recall, there was more talk about what should be done (or attempted) with a certain cartridge. There are many aspects to 'sporting' but it's a concept worth pondering now and then.

Thanks for the reminder.

I know some 20-30 years ago John Nosler wrote in one of his loading manuals about shooting deer with .22 centerfires. He discouraged the practice, even though he successfully got a deer, because there was almost no blood trail. He was using one of his bullets - but the Partition was not yet available in .224.

IIRC a few years later Finn Aagaard moved to Texas, and did a lot of deer hunting with then-new Trophy Bonded bullets in the .223, and both he & his wife had excellent results on several animals. He wrote of it not long before his passing. That was probably the first time an expert said it was okay to use a .223 on deer sized game, with appropriate bullets.

Killing sheit is a complete mystery to many.

No.

What's funny is you can add .019" diameter to a bullet and people are ok fine.

Bullets and placement. Been that way since Copernicus.

Many people have an anti-.22 "feeling" about big game hunting, based on somehow associating all .22 caliber rifles with rimfires, and anti-.22 regulations instituted in many states after the .220 Swift appeared in the 1930's.

Back then, of course, there weren't any .22-caliber bullets "designed" for big game, but a lot of hunters went ahead and used the Swift anyway, mostly with success. When the bullets didn't work, the caliber was blamed, but back then a LOT of bullets didn't always work on whatever passes for big game, regardless of caliber. And the regulations were mostly passed by people who'd never shot any big game with a .220 Swift, or even seen one in action. They just "knew" (like several people who've posted here) that it wouldn't work.

When I was a kid here in Montana, the regulation for big game rifle cartridges was a centerfire of at least .23 caliber. (A .23 minimum was the law in many states, which of course meant that some people came up with .23 caliber wildcats, which worked fine.) Eventually the requirement was dropped, and today you can shoot big game with whatever cartridge you want to here, with the exception of some areas close to towns, even a .22 rimfire. This is because the game department finally realized most hunters use something that works.

.22 centerfires not only take a lot of deer and antelope here, but some hunters use them on elk--though of course with the "precise bullet placement" mantra everybody repeats when using "too small" rifles on any sort of big game. In fact, one old game warden I knew preferred the .220 Swift to any other cartridge for shooting elk off haystacks back when "game damage" was handled by wardens and not longer hunting seasons. He shot hundreds of elk with many cartridges, and said a Swift bullet in the lungs killed them with less fuss than any other cartridge he tried.

Strange animals you have out there. Our whitetails would never get up on a haystack.

John,

I seem to recall an article that you wrote many years ago, the gist of which was that your friends/neighbors liked to visit and see all of your different rifles, then they would go home and punch their deer tags with the Remington 700 Varmint in 22-250 that they used for all other purposes.

I have shot a few deer with 3 different .224" bore cartridges; the 223, 223 WSSM, and 22-250, with 60 grain Partitions and 64 grain PPs. All the deer died promptly and, upon farther inspection, the degree of internal damage made you wonder why they didn't die in their tracks. My Norwegian bachelor farmer friend has a large gun room, but the rifle that he carries with him day in and day out is a Marlin XS7 with a Stevens 200 barrel that I rechambered from 223 to 22-250 for him. He likes it so much that he bought a couple of extra 223 Stevens 200 barrel for me to rechamber, planning ahead for the day when the current barrel starts to lose its accuracy.

Teeder,

You haven't seen what elk can do to a haystack. Often they're on top of it in short order, because the haystack is a lot shorter.

well , the whitetails here have no problem climbing on top of round bale piles , corn or silage piles......

Jeff,

Yeah, there are a lot of .22-250's in Montana that get used as all-around rifles, especially in the eastern part of the state--even without "premium" bullets!

My first hunt to Montana was in the early 1970's and the rancher, over near Jordan, used a 22-250 on everything.

I was greener than green but it sounded OK to me at the time. I used a 270 and didn't feel badly...both Grits Gresham and John Jobson had hunted with the same rancher using a 7 Rem Mag and a 270.

No one much cared what you used if you could shoot straight.

A rancher friend in west River SD uses a old 340 Savage 222. Drops one every year. He's close to 90 years old. He seems reasonably inelligent. But the old fool doesn't know the 222 is the wrong cartridge and he's been using it since the 50's!

A well known Grand Junction, CO, 'smith told me that he had been killing deer with 1-14" ROT 22-250s, shooting 55 grain bullets, for years and couldn't understand all the demand for quicker twists and heavier bullets. I think that he was, mostly, shooting 55 grain Winchester/Olin factory ammo and his primary rifle was a Savage 99 that he'd rebarreled with a Ruger 77 V 220 Swift barrel that he'd cut back to 24"(?). I had him do the same thing with a 99EG receiver, 99CD wood, and a Ruger 77 V 25-06 barrel that he shortened and rechambered to 250-3000. Kinda heavy to tote around and, seemingly, increasing in weight as I grow older, but very steady to shoot off-hand and reasonably accurate too.

Frank Glaser in "Alaska's Wolf Man" market hunted for years and stacked huge numbers of critters bigger than deer said he preferred the Swift over all else except for the big bears.

His career ended in '54 so he was obviously not shooting "Premium" bullets...

Copernicus used a .280 Rem...

I remember a number of people back in the late 70's and early 80's using .222 Remington's for deer. I never heard anyone who used one complain about their effectiveness either.

I always wondered why so many people make a stink about the .223 now. It's not as if this is new.

People, for the most part, are very provincial. You see it NON-STOP on the 'Fire.

LOL!

Fugcking Yankee hater.

The word is indifference, not hate.

You couldn't leave BigStick out of this one, huh?

OK...Im a little slow, Ive been gone, and I just caught this.....


Who do I turn in my hurt feelers report to?

Its been a couple months since a little bores for big deer thread...


Is using a .22 centerfire on deer ethical? or even legal in most places????






I just learned on a cull hunt in Texas that they will kill Oryx.....but the oryx isn't as tough as a tiny bambi deer is it?


I haven't read the article so I'm ignorant and used my "big" gun...the .243 on other stuff in Texas.

Until I had kids I only thought I knew what was the right cartridge for deer.
We started with the 223 in TBBC and used the Remington Managed recoil loads in 270, 308, and 260 and it's not speed that kills. It's the bullet in the right place and these loads shoot the right bullet at the right speed

Is this article available on line
I did a search and couldn't find a link

I have used the 222 and 22/250 on medium sized critters way more than most people will ever do and a 243 and up is just so much more emphatic, and stepping up to the 270 class is a generation ahead again.
Anyone who tells you different hasn't done a lot of killing.

You might have to define 'a lot'......


I haven't seen the larger cartridges be any more emphatic on medium sized game.


Course...I'm new at this.....

In 2007 I went on a cull hunt in South Africa where one of the professional hunters, Rob Klemp, had a Sako .22-250 that at that point had taken over 12,000 animals--mostly springbok, but some others as well. It was on its 4th barrel, and one day my hunting partner and I were allowed to add to its total. Again, mostly the animals were springbok, but one was a medium-dized kudu bull my partner killed with a heart-shot.

Rob still uses the same Sako, but I believe it's on its 6th barrel now, with a few thousand more animals taken. Is that a lot?

I think that qualifies. My fave .223 is only on its third barrel, so Im still learning....


Pats ( Scenarshooter) .220 Swift is on its 9th barrel IIRC so I think its done ' a lot'....



I only have a sample of a couple hundred....

Is this issue available on the shelf yet?

What bullet does he use?Is the barrel a factory 1-14" twist?thanks,Huntz

Pal in KS kills those big Bucks with ancient 722 222 Rem and 45 gr Barnes. Lungs shots, 100% penetration, usually die within sight. (no long shots)

I think JB said he used Win. 55 grain Power points.


Maybe he will be along shortly to correct or confirm...

.222 45 grain Barnes, 247 yards.

Ingwe,popesixtus is larry root.

Thanks for the heads up...

You're welcome.

He also posts under the name 1000is.

OK...back on topic, not only has my big game rifle shrunk, but it turned funny colors......





What should I do?

Get a big black texta and write all over it then dump the lot in the nearest river, be sure to snap a few pictures and post them for the rest of us to marvel over.

Added...make certain to show any rust to shew just how badly you have treated it.



You are welcome.

Good idea!

Then a select few people would revere my posts, even though I denigrate them at every turn!

But think of the fun when you repeat it and continually hook the same catch.

I can't wait!


And I can use all my old photos, never needing new ones!

It gets better...you can even use someone else's.


Oh the joy!

Damn!


And can I belittle anybody who doesn't like the equipment that I like?

Of course!

I would have done it myself but walnut looks really sucky if it hasn't been painted to look like a pox doctors clerk.

Should I put any more or different stickers on my stocks?


Or take pics of my stuff all lined up in the yard?

Sticker and stuff pics to start....




Hows that?

More is always good, but stacking them in the yard is somewhat passé.
Try throwing them at trees instead...that is new and will get some attention.

Pink...definitely more pink.


And don't forget the blue tape!

Should I also post pics of people who never smile, because they are with me?

Really...now how the hell are you going to make anyone you know that miserable.
Just steal a pic off the internet, no one will know.


Sheesh...don't you know anything!


Boy are you ever lucky I am here.

Thats true...people can't help but be happy when they are with me.


I'm a gem!

Yeah...it is probably the 270 that has made you popular.

You're gonna drink Jack Daniels in hell for that.