Hi Folks:

I am proud and honored to welcome officially Wayne van Zwoll to the rolls of Campfire membership.

Please use this thread to ask Wayne questions about his new, exclusive Campfire article LOADS FOR THE LONG SHOT, linked here and also found on the Reloading subpage.

Welcome, Wayne!

Rick

Welcome Wayne.

Great news and welcome!

Cool!

Awesome!

I have long been a fan of yours. Welcome to the fire.

WVZ, welcome!

From your article: "Joe Thielen sums it up: "To oversimplify, impaired flight due to tip melt happens to bullets with a starting BC of .550, at 3,000 ft/sec exit speed, over ranges exceeding 300 yards.""

Really interesting statement.

Do you know of any info on the effect of heat on other bullet types, such as hollow point (I assume negligible) and lead tipped? Of course lead tipped bullets don't have high BCs, so the comparison may not be a fair one.

Thanks!
v/r
Joel

Welcome, long time fan...

Glad your on board. Welcome!

Welcome WVZ. Hopefully the moderators won't let certain forum members curse, belittle, and trash your threads as they do with other paying sponsor's threads.

I look forward to your replies.

Thank you! I'm sure I'll learn something around this campfire -- initially how to listen and talk across it!

Thank you, Ranger. I'm sure to learn from this group!

Thank you. And how true!

I can certainly agree with that!

Hi Wayne,

Welcome to the Campfire! It's sort of an alternate universe, as you'll soon discover, but one with some real virtues.

Thank you, ipopum. It's already an interesting experience!

WvZ,

Welcome to the "Campfire". I have always appreciated and respected your writing.

donsm70

Thank you, Mike. About now, riflemen from my part of the country are packing up for a few months in yours!

The heating of bullets in flight is hard to study. I must defer to ballisticians with more experience and equipment. But those who've conducted the Doppler trials for Hornady are on to something. As I've mentioned in my articles on the topic, heat build-up becomes consequential when the bullet 1) is going fast enough to generate requisite friction, 2) has a high enough BC to travel at speed for some distance and 3) flies far enough to permit thorough heating. Most bullets/shots don't meet all those requirements. Your question about HP and SP noses is a good one. Without data, I'll hazard that jacket material won't melt at the velocities shown to induce melting in polymer. And while lead will liquefy at lower temps than gilding metal, it's already imperfect in form at the bullet tip. If heat affects its shape, any change would be hard to measure and to replicate in shooting trials. That's my tractor-seat opinion.

Thank you for the kind words.

WVZ: Welcome. I always enjoyed your writing about rifles and hunting.

Welcome. Eat the chicken and leave the bones--you'll enjoy it here.

Yes, welcome to a mellow site where everyone gets along - as long as they don't sign in!
Look forward to your contributions as I have followed you for years.

WvZ -

Count me in welcoming you to the 'fire'. I've never had the privilege in conversing with you and am very interested in getting to know you better.

Jerry

WVZ, welcome aboard. Thank you for all of your rifles and shooting articles and books over the years. Great stuff.

Welcome aboard Wayne!

I really enjoy your work. We are lucky to have you contributing.

GW

Welcome Mr. van Zwoll!

Have always enjoyed your work. Along with JB we have two down to earth people on board with a tremendous amount knowledge. Both practical field shooting and the science behind it.

Welcome..

Welcome Wayne! I'm a long time fan of your writing. It will be great to have you on the 'fire.

I hope you have thick skin. Welcome aboard...

Welcome aboard. Looking forward to your take on different subjects.

This is great! Welcome!

So does a bullet have to have all three? Or if two of the factors are particularly strong, can the third be discounted?

For example, if I shoot an 80gr Barnes out of my 25-06, it beats the MV requirement by quite a bit. But the BC isn't even close.

Really it may be an irrelevant question because I don't plan on LR shooting with that load, but it's more for curiousity's sake.

My wife attended a SCI women's hunter event in Wyoming in 1999 at which Wayne was an instructor. She learned lots from him and thought he was a great instructor. A while later Wayne and his wife stopped by our home in Dundee (their daughter was in college nearby) and we had a great visit. He's a knowledgeable and very practical guy.

Welcome Sir !

looking forward to reading more of your work

GTC

That Wayne is a fine addition to the fire and a great writer is certainly true, but it is also true that he is a remarkably good hunter too. I know this because I've hunted with him on the Deseret Ranch. Some years ago years ago, I had a management bull elk permit for the Deseret. My brother was guiding me and we were having trouble finding a decent management bull. In those days a management bull had to be and older 5x5 or 5x6. Wayne was on the ranch and bunking with my bother and me. He told us he'd seen a great 5x5 that would score well. He offered to take us into the drainage where the 5x5 was hanging out. The three of us found the bull the first time the next morning about 8:00am miles from the truck in the very rugged blue fork canyon area. The bull gave us the slip several times but Wayne kept finding him. Finally about 11:00am the bull made a final fatal mistake and I put a 160gr Nosler Partition through his chest. It was an exciting chase, one I will never forget.

Welcome Wayne! I've always enjoyed your writing.

What a welcome addition! I have long called Wayne my guru for all things hunting and shooting.

A big Washington State Welcome to you, Dr. VanZwoll!

Nice article.

Welcome Wayne!

I look forward to reading your posts!


Casey

WvZ, it's nice to have you here. FYI, one of your articles and one of Ross Seyfried's were the catalysts to me spending about two decades with the 340 Wby as my "elk cartridge". About thirteen elk, bear, and a caribou later I've moved on but came to love the cartridge and it's effectiveness.

Dutch heritage?

Welcome Wayne.

It seems the notion of a "long shot" has changed a lot in the last decade. Perhaps less than a decade in my country where most hunters would likely still consider over 250 metres to be a long shot on game.

Where do you see LR heading in the next 20 years? Will we keep seeing ranges extended, or is there a practical limit to all this?

Again, welcome.

- Bob

WvZ, I was wondering how to get you on board, but glad it didn't wait on me to happen!

I will start with a very iffy question: Assume that I can get 2900 fps from a 165gr 30-06. Which bullet would you choose if you hunted where the shot could be 50 yd or 300 yd on elk or large deer?

Next, would you choose a 180 gr instead if accuracy was similar? Again, which bullet for the same situation?

I know there are a thousand other situations, but what are your thoughts with the current situation where a hunt is a rare experience [and expensive!]. Would you rather have a 300
Wby or similar in this circumstance?

Thanks much for your thoughts.

Is Wayne on an extended hunting trip? Or quickly tired of the wreckage we call the 'fire?

If using 165s, I'd try Hornady's GMX and the Barnes TSX, both because they penetrate well and seem to me the best of the lead-free options. The field of good 180s is very full. I like the Nosler AccuBond (especially at distance) and the Trophy Bonded and Swift A-Frame. I've killed quite a few elk with Nosler Partitions. ... Wayne

Bob, extending reach seems a natural yearning, indulged since the first spear, atlatl, sling, bow and firearm. I don't expect it to abate. But practical (certainly humane and ethical) limits afield do exist. Some hunters exceed them now. Lost game -- and lost hunting opportunity for everyone -- is one result. Another is the claim by more and more people ill disposed toward hunting that there's no sport in long-range assassination.... Wayne

Yes, I've been traveling. Back briefly. It's hunting season! My apologies if I've missed a question or two..... Wayne

Pleased to be here.... Wayne

Yes, I've been traveling. Back briefly. It's hunting season! My apologies if I've missed a question or two..... Wayne

Logger, thank you for the kind words! I'm still hosting women's safaris in Namibia -- the program an outgrowth of the camp your wife attended. My daughter is still at George Fox, but now with and MS and as an adjunct instructor. I hope fall is starting well for both of you. Still in Dundee? .... Wayne

Bought "Elk Rifles, Cartridges and Hunting Tactics" in 92,
it remains one of my all time favorite books. Since then I have always made a point to read your articles. You have a talent, glad to see you are here.
Keep writing !
Jay

Just spent a couple of days camped in a remote spot with some mates doing some LR plinking. Some of us have a little experience, some a little more and one or two complete novices...

We didn't go out further than 1100y and were using cartidges ranging from 223 to 300 WM. There were some expensive custom LR rigs, some varmint rifles and a couple of light hunting rifles in the mix, scoped and loaded appropriately for longer range shooting.

All I can say is that much beyond about 750y, it gets harder and harder in non lineal fashion, and unless you're doing LOTS of shooting at those ranges it's my view that NO ONE has any business shooting at game that far out. And then only in ideal conditions. (Deer tethered in a wind tunnel.... )

I think i said above that LR hunting is in it's formative years in this country. Perhaps we're a long way behind the curve, but it seems there's lots of talk on the internet where people are killing game at extreme ranges that seems very unlikely unless the shooter is an absolute jet of a shot that shoots perhaps hundreds of rounds a week in that setting...

All I know is that I was reminded these last few days how much more I need to practice!

Welcome to the 'Fire, WvZ! And thanks for that article. The polymer tip melt phenomenon is one I'd wondered about, but had no idea how it could be tested for. Gotta love the fact that science nerds in shops like Hornady think of this stuff and find ways to test it.

Wayne, Welcome to the fire! And, as others have mentioned, it's a brotherhood of sportsmen were never a harsh word is spoken. The wife and I attended your presentation many years ago at the Wy. Hunting/Fishing Expo in Casper. Enjoyed it as well as many of your articles written over the years. memtb

Cool. Nice to have you here, Wayne. Now my two favorite writers are both here (the other being JB). I look forward to reading what you have to say!

Wayne, what pizzes me off is some of these new hunters lack of ethics. They spray lead and go and pick up their critters. They don't care how many other animals or people (for that matter) get wounded or killed in the process. My elk hunting partner and I witnessed this happen 2 days ago on the opening day of first season general season bull hunt here in Oregon. These guys fired off 40 rounds (at least) at these elk and went and picked up the remains. The other elk went crashing though the woods. We circled around and got ahead of the herd and my buddy shot a wounded bull that these guys had injured. It was shot twice. Once in the hind end and another grazed the front leg. My buddy could have taken a bigger bull in the bunch, but didn't want to leave this one to die in the woods. It's one thing to shoot an animal at "long range" and make that shot count, but to spray and pray and wound and maim critters in the process is just sickening to me.... I almost went to have a talk with these fu ckers, but figured a heated debate with guns involved would only lead to more nonsense. There were 4 shooters there, they fired a minimum of 40 rounds and dropped 2 elk. Wounded who knows how many. It's guys like these that give good hunters a bad name.

Thank you, memtb. I just hunted pronghorn in your fine state, with an iron-sighted .25-35 dating to the Great War. A fine and challenging way to down a buck! No doubt you've been afield. Any luck? -- WvZ

Such distances humble us all, bobnob17. I just returned from an elk hunt skunked because I couldn't find an animal close enough for my iron-sighted .303 Savage. It was great fun, though. And real hunting. When 150 yards is too far, animals at 750 might as well be on the moon! -- WvZ

Much obliged for the kind words, Jay -- WvZ

I've enjoyed reading your books and articles and have learned a lot. welcome.

Wayne, I hope that you had success with the 25-35. That's doing it the hard way. I fired two rounds, a coyote at 280+ and a "goat" at 400(give or take a few yards). The wife,in fading light on our last day, offhanded one at just over a hundred. Both goats were a little better than average. We had passed on several good ones earlier in the season, but needed to fill tags! The most memorable part of the hunting was making accurate shots. memtb

Wayne, I have a question about "hot" (to put it mildly) loads for the 26 Nosler. I have owned 2, and simply could not get them to shoot accurately shooting min to max book loads. It seems as though everyone I talk to that has an accurate one is shooting approximately 80 grns of Retumbo behind a 140 grn bullet, and are having no pressure issues. How is this possible? I would think that one of these guys would have blown their own head off by now. Do you think it is just a matter of time? Any info would be appreciated.

Well, this whole idea that hunting ethics have gone down doesn't really fit. Go read any JOC book and read of how much lead he and his associates slung at unknown distances with wounded game lost. Read some books written before his time when game was thought unlimited and many didn't even bother to track wounded animals as it was easier to just shoot another. A couple of good examples are the books by Sheldon and Hornaday written about hunting in the early 1900s.

Hunting has actually become more ethical over time as resources dwindle and awareness is increased. Sure, there are some bad folks out there, but there's probably more unethical people shooting short than long. Overall, hunters are more ethical now than they've ever been.

Welcome Wayne,

Really enjoyed Elk & Elk Hunting, liked your presentation at RMEF Elk Camp a few years ago, enjoy your articles in Bugle.
Look forward to your contributions here.

Greg

Thank you for the kind words, Greg. I do appreciate them!
Good hunting! .... WvZ

It seems to me your friend chose an ethical path, killing the crippled bull. I've done the same. Poor shooting leaves many animals in the woods to die. Distance has become the whipping boy, but I've seen game poorly hit at very close range. "Too far" is too far to make a lethal first-round hit under prevailing circumstances. I agree that the hype around long shooting has encouraged many irresponsible people to act irresponsibly at greater range. It's a loss for all of us. .... WvZ

I've had limited experience loading the .26 and have yet to exceed 78 grains with Retumbo behind 140s (3,320 fps). I've driven 129s safely 3,475 with 80 grains RL-25. Of course, rifles differ; you may find these loads hot or not in yours. I'd try US 869; Nosler people told me early on it was performing very well. You'll look hard to find a powder too slow behind heavy bullets in the .26. As for accuracy, you didn't say what standard you expect. This isn't a Benchrest cartridge. My loads haven't broken into the sub-MOA club; but neither do many big game loads in many rifles. ....WvZ

Hey Wayne!! Welcome!! It’s been awhile since I stopped by the fire myself! So hey guys and gals!! BTW I really enjoyed your article in the reloading section on this site goning to do some googling later on your other work!!!

The Question:

Ok I won a 7MM Rem Magnum 700 Remington sps 26” tube 1:9 ¼ twist in a raffle(I should have bought a lottery ticket to, I won 2 rifles on the same ticket 2 days apart, no lie), I broke in the barrel, installed an HS Precision stock, bedded the action, and trying to work up a load for it. I would like to use some of the powders I have in stock, RL-25, H-1000, Rotumbo(sp?), RL-33, I have some faster powders 4831, 4350, etc to. I ordered Nosler Accubond 150 Long Range (BC .611) Berger 168 VLD target (BC .628) and Serria MK 178 (BC .608) that I thought I would start working up with Nosler brass. My goal is really punching paper at long range as I have my go to hunting rigs already and not really concerned with taking game with this rifle. Any thoughts on where your would start, projectiles to omit or use (or order?) Thanks for any help and advice you could provide!!

Cheers

Curt

Thank you for the welcome, Curt. I envy you for your good fortune in raffles. But I won't challenge a shelf full of loading manuals with a detailed reply. My leanings would be to slow powders with bullets heavier than 150 grains. Most of my loading for the 7 RM has been with 4831. Slower fuel seems to me appropriate for bullets in the 175-180 range. I've had good luck with IMR 7828 in heavy-bullet loads for the .264 WM. Retumbo and RL-25 would be my next picks, but you really haven't named any losers.... WvZ

Welcome to the fire Wayne.

I first noticed your work in the Gun Digest. I do not have any magazine subscriptions but I do buy books. Is there a website where I can find some of your books?

And I too have enjoyed your writings.

Thanks Wayne!

Time to get started :-)

Wayne, I met you once at a NRA Annual Meeting. I even got your autograph. You're the read deal.

Nice to have you here Wayne....
Was great to watch your 603yd bull elk kill with one of my favorite cartridges; the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I've also enjoyed many of your articles....
It really is great that we have so many talented people here on the 'Fire!
Johnny

Thank you for the kind words! I hope you enjoy the 2017 NRA event, coming up soon!.... WvZ

Maybe how to duck...

Welcome aboard, your input always welcomed.

I've enjoyed your work for years, won't say how many...

That would be telling on us both...

DF

Joel, I'm sorry I missed seeing your post earlier, a good question. As you point out, exposed lead at the nose doesn't cleave air as well as pointed polymer, and lead-tipped bullets aren't chosen for shooting at extreme range. Further, I suspect that measuring changes in tip shape during flight would be more difficult with lead noses, as they're not as uniform as polymer tips. Hollowpoints like Sierra's MatchKing would not show tip melt... WvZ

I like the Nosler AccuBond for shots on the long side of your bracket, but the Swift A-Frame and Federal Trophy Bonded are my picks up close. That said, I've shot more elk with Nosler Partitions. If you can wring 2900 from an '06, you should be able to hurl 180s fast enough to give them the edge. To 300 yards, a .30-06 should work fine -- or a short .30 magnum like the .308 Norma or .300 Winchester. ... WvZ

I've not used that charge in the .26. Nosler does list 120s with up to 83 grains Retumbo, and I suspect that's conservative. Reducing the recommendation to 74 grains as a maximum load for 129-grain bullets, as Nosler does in its manual, seems a big drop too. FYI, I've had good results from very slow powder over recommended charges in the .264 Win. Mag. This isn't a recommendation that you try them in the .26, but throats and other variables open possibilities you can explore one carefully measured grain at a time I've had only modest success getting the accuracy I expected from a Nosler rifle in .26.... WvZ

Leonten, my apologies for the late reply. I've no website selling books but do keep some on hand for people who write me at my mailing (not my home) address: 2610 Highland Drive, Bridgeport WA 98813. .... WvZ

Hello Wayne - a question:

I'm reloading for my .257 Roberts, Mauser action, 24" barrel. 117-gr Hornady SP bullet, IMR 4350 powder, CCI large rifle primers, R-P brass, bullets loaded just short of the lands.

My Hornady manual says with 41 grains I should get 2800 fps, and with 42 grains 2860 or so.

My chronometer readings at the range say (average of 5 rounds per load): 41.0 gr - 2569 fps;

41.3 gr - 2604 fps;

41.6 gr - 2633 fps;

42.0 gr - 2670 fps.

Why are my readings so much lower than the books (both new and and an older Hornady manual) say I should be getting? I am not getting any signs of excessive pressure and I am .8 grain below the max load listed for +P loads in the newer manual.

Thanks! Tom

What load would you recommend for my Remington ,700 Long Range Rifle chambered for 300 RUM

Wayne,
Love your book "Deer Rifles and Cartridges".....

I was reading in a old issue of the American Rifleman, Nov. 1965, an article written by Les Bowman, titled... "Game shooting at Long Range"

Under the subheading "Selecting the proper Bullet".....listing certain calibers, he mentioned about the 270 in particular...... the 150 grain bullet, "while they leave the gun at lower velocities then lighter weight bullets do, in most cases they exceed them in velocity after the first 200 yards, and at long ranges are far ahead both in velocity and energy"

What say you?

Ralph

WvZ Offline
Joined 09/08/16
Last Seen 12/09/17