What is the best way to go for a defensive load for .357 Mag and .38 Spl? Should I go with 158 gr HPs or 125 Gr HPs? Guns are a 4" S&W M-19 .357, a 2" S&W M-36 .38, and a 4" Taurus .38. I'm thinking about loading the .357 with 158 gr and the .38s with 125 gr HPs. Will be using Unique powder. Your thoughts?

Forget 125gr HP's for the .38

More to come when I have time.


Your parameters:

M-19 with adjustable sights, others not.

Unique only?

Urban defense or field use or both?

Do you want to use just one bullet for all?

I like the 158 Gold Dot. It is all you will ever need in a 357 for personal defense or hunting critters up to deer size, unless you someday decide to shoot cast bullets.....

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/02/speer-gold-dot-357-magnum-158-grain.html

For the 38 Spl I like the 135 Gold Dot +P load.

Both are tested and proven. The GD is a great bullet.......

158 grain cast bullets. Keith style (semi-wadcutter)
2400 in 357
Unique or similar in 38

Unique isn't a bad powder. You can get some pretty righteous velocity out of it with .357 and 158s. It seems to work pretty well for a very wide range of load intensities.

ETA:
I've used it for eveything from target loads to magnum, 9mm to 44 mag.

Gold Dots as components are Unobtanium. I think they sell all they can make in their ammo.

Too many parameters, too many different guns, for one bullet/load to be a universal panacea. I would compromise and go with the 158 SWC, hollow pointed if possible, cast soft, with 2400/.357 and Unique/.38Spl (or just Unique like Barry said). I'm of the belief that jacketed bullets offer little advantage over jacketed ones in a .38Spl., if the bullet maker is me and I have access to my lead alloys and bullet molds.

What I have on hand is several hundred Sierra 125 gr JHPs and several hundred Rainier Ballistics 158 gr JHPs. Powder on hand is a large quantity of Unique and a little bit of both AA # 7 and AA #9. I don't really want to buy any more powder or bullets unless I have to as I doubt I will live long enough to use up what I have on hand now. I do not shoot a huge amount. Brass is primed with CCI SP and SMP respectively. I know the Rainier bullets are not exactly top of the line stuff, but I have already loaded up a few hundred 158 gr. Hornady HXPs for the .357. I'm going to use the Rainiers in one or the other, maybe both .357 & .38. Just wanted to know others thoughts on whether the best "business" load would be the 158 gr Rainier or the 125 gr Sierra in either cartridge? I have generally been in favor of heavy bullets, but there are some that seem to favor lighter bullets with more velocity. In the small J-frame M-36 S&W .38, I am thinking going with the lighter bullet due to recoil. Also, with a 2" barrel, I am not so sure that any appreciable advantage could be had with a heavy bullet. Maybe I am over analyzing this?

Also have on hand several hundred 158 gr lead SWCs.

This is a good thread. I hope more info comes in.

I think you already have the ingredients given what you said you wanted. Unique is a 100year old powder, altho revised, that has lasted that long for a reason. It may not be the BEST powder for certain applications, but it works.
I for sure wouldn't be putting those 125grainers in the model 19.
I don't think you are going to get That much more velocity out of a 125grainer, and understand that comes at a price. Yes bullet weight contributes to recoil, but so does more powder and snap.
I am kind of a heavy bullet type of guy, but i have loaded for a model 36 and a ladysmith, same type of gun, 180grainers. 158grainers wouldn't bother me at all. The british in WWII, altho it can be a debatable topic, were stuffing 200grainers in 38s&w. I have put 200grainers in 38special, at a lot more velocity than the british were using.
I wouldn't hesitate with your game plan.
Not that this means anything, but back in the 70's one day i was called into the sheriff's department station to replace ammo. 357mag 158grains was replaced with 38special plus P in 158grainers. At the time it was over the thought of "undue force" due to a court case in california. I didn't like the idea but realized i think it wasn't that bad a deal.
One of my favorite bullets these days is a cast 160grain keith style swc, or the same thing in 170grain. I have used both in 38special and 357magnum the only difference being a little faster in the 357mag. So in one i am under 1000fps a little, the other over 1000fps. They both go thump when they hit something.

I have two loads in my notebook with those Rainer 158 plated HPs.

357 magnum, 7.6 grains Unique.

38 Special , 5.0 grain of Unique. ( if i recall correctly, this would be +P ?)

both are very accurate for me but i dont use that bullet for "killin stuffs"

Hardcast SWCs with gaschecks pushed fast are what i trust for that

For an all around load in the 357 it's hard to beat a good cast 158 gr and 7 gr of unique. IMHO it's right at the sweet spot of bullet weight, velocity and shootability.

The thing with 125's is they only work well if pushed fast, and a 38 can't push them fast. The 38 is at it's best with a 158 gr.

Nothing wrong with Unique, over the years it's been my favorite medium burning rate powder and has worked extremely well in every handgun round I've used it in, 38 sp, 357 mag, 9mm, 44 sp, 44 mag, 45 acp, 45 colt and 480 Ruger and has often accounted for the most accurate loads. I've also used it in rifles for mild cast bullet loads. It would still be my go to powder if I could find it, but I ended up going with Universal once I could get some.

In short,what gnoahhh said^^^^


The 125gr and 135gr, even the Speer 135gr for short barreled guns do not expand reliably out of a 2" gun. I tried-- going past +P loads.

The 2" gun with fixed sights is regulated for 158gr. bullets.

If you want one bullet, then the 158gr Cast SWC is your bullet. If you want two, then add Speer 158gr Swaged Lead (soft) SWC Hollow point. They are not very expensive. It has been proven to be a better option out of the 2" .38 special.

Unique powder will work fine in both.

I use hard cast SWC's in my J Frame. I would rather use what Energy the 38 has in penetration instead of losing it with expansion.

The trouble with hardcast SWCs is, dare I say it, overpenetration, even from a .38. Buffalo Bore sells .38 and .38 +P ammo that features gas-checked soft hollow points that expand widely, even from snubbies. The bullets they use are available from their supplier for reloading.

One could always buy the BB loads for business and load near-duplicates for practice.

Those SWCHPs do work VERY well, and are cast to just the right hardness for good expansion. Rim Rock casts them for Buffalo Bore.

What you find troublesome, I find to be reassuring. If I'm only working with 350 ft.lbs. of energy, I want all the penetration help I can find.

My concern is that a through and through could srike someone on the other side, in my house, on the street, or in some other public venue. Hollow points (that actually expand) reduce that possibility. In addition, loads like the FBI .38 load score well in stopping power data from actual shootings.

Personal choice.

I surely get your point. I live in a cold climate, lots of heavy clothing in the winter. For Me, if I Happen to be carrying a 38 that day, I'm going for penetration. Thankfully, I've been carrying since 1978, and haven't put it to the test!
The FBI in their studies, have shown the Hit rate per Shots fired, wether it be LEO or the public to be less than 25%. Unfortunately, all those misses are flying off somewhere.

Since I don't go to town much, my everyday carry gun is now an 8-shot Model 63 full of Stingers (sometimes with a couple of shot loads on top) insted of the hammerless 2-inch .38 I was carrying. One or two Stingers on target beats any number of .38s around the edges.

If I go anywhere that I consider really dangerous, I pack the 7-shot L frame full of 158 XTPs over 18gr of LiLGun or 158 LC SWCs over 14.9gr 2400 (bear load?).

Pappy,

Read about the CCI Velocitors. I used to use Stingers in my M63 until the Velocitors came out.

Much more accurate than the Stingers. They hit harder. 40 Grain bullet. Less flash in that 4" revolver. I really like them.

In rifles, they take over the Stingers @ 50 yards energy wise. Their energy @ 100yrds is the same as Standard velocity are at the muzzle.

Try them, you'll like 'em.

Stingers are a couple hundred fps faster out of a pistol though. I need to shoot them both through some laundry soap and see which one makes the biggest hole. Both are tough to find, but I've got enough for carry of each.

Don't want to be shot with either, regardless.

But with a 32gr vs 40gr with the Velocitors. They both expand well out of a handgun.

I like the heavies. Good looking mushrooms they make.

Ditto on not being shot with either.

I load "The Warden"s 38 with 148 full wad-cutters (her preferred load) and, after some reflection, don't consider her under-equipped at any self-defense distance.

My .38 defense load is a 148 gr hard cast wadcutter over enough Unique to scoot it along at 850fps.

In the .357 I use the same slug but bump the velocity to 1000fps.

Don't be hesitant to shoot good +P or +P+ handloads from your .38 revolvers, if they are +P rated. The 19, no worries. The October 2016 issue of Handloader Magazine had a very comprehensive article about .38 +P and 38-44 loads. They used a Smith 1.85" and 6" barreled revolvers, and one conclusion was that it required 800 fps to insure expansion of commonly-available hollow points. Some commercial ammo expanded, others couldn't. So load for the snubby, knowing you will get better velocity/expansion from a longer barrel. Pick whatever bullet shoots best in each individual gun. The best loads for one gun will probably work well in the others.

Otoh, some prefer standard, target Wadcutter bullets loaded to about 700-800 fps. In my experience, hollow-base wadcuttters, loaded with hollow base foremost tend to keyhole at 25 yards.

When I was competing in IPSC, I loaded RCBS 150 gr. cast and commercial cast 158 gr. bullets over 5.5 gr Unique, which chrono'ed at 860 fps from my 4 in. barrel. 357 brass, standard primer.

Nowadays, I figure that a hot .38/mild Magnum load will be sufficient, so I have gone to 6 gr Unique, 5.7 gr Universal, and ~11 gr. 2400.

I carry 38 Spl. Speer 135 gr. +P ammo, with Remington Golden Saber 125 gr., and the "old" Remington LSWCHP 158gr. +P as back-up. I load the jacketed components for ~900 fps. For plinking, I have several hundred cast 158 Hornady swaged SWC reg and HP, and RCBS 150 gr SWC.

I know many will disagree, but I think the cast/swaged SWC have reached their useful peak at about 1,000fps. After that, it is mostly blast and recoil. Swaged SWCs and wadcutters shouldn't be shot above what good loading manuals suggest, unless you enjoy scrubbing lead out of your barrel.

To be sure, it has its detractors, but modern 38 special +P ammunition is a perfectly capable and effective round.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but 357 Magnum ammunition seems to be somewhat harder to find of late, and 38 Special, especially +P, more prevalent. Maybe I'm fantasizing, but I think a lot of shooters have discovered they like less recoil and muzzle blast, and they can shoot the 38s better than the 1400 fps "Blue Whistlers" from the 357 Magnum.

158 GR Keith SWC if you like cast bullets and the 158 gr Speer Gold Dot in the jacketed bullet. Win 296 or H110 for the Jacketed Bullet and 2400 or Unique for the Cast.

Looking at the 158g Gold Dot Gel test, average expansion was .515 with 23" of penetration. Assuming no expansion from a Keith 158g SWC (1/8" less than the expanded GD) launched at 1150fps, would the penetration be much more than 23"? I don't know. I load 6.5g of Unique under a 158g Keith and keep it in camp, woods and sometimes at home for 2-legged psycho defense -- don't feel under gunned at all. In fact, I know my follow-up shots are faster than with full bore loads. If you're set on Unique and a jacketed bullet, you could always load 7.5-7.8g under a 158g XTP -- it's no slouch. Of course with Unique, if shooting in a rather confined space, everyone may die of smoke inhalation!

Just my opinion but the 110- 125 gr jhp is probably best for the 38 sp. While the 357 can operate with heavier bullets. With 110- 125 gr bullets the 38 sp is essentially the equivalent of a 9mm speed wise. If I used heavier bullets in a 38 I'd probably use Keith style cast as velocity will be too low to provide reliable expansion of many jhp bullets. Actually my favorite bullet is a 148 gr bevel base wc over about 3-4 gr of unique but Im mostly interested in shooting walnuts and hedge apples off of logs.