While hunting with my son last week we were using a Remington model 7 in a 7mm-08. We have owned this rifle for three years and have shot it at least 40-50 times. We have never experienced any type of malfunction whatsoever. When the safety was moved from safe to fire the gun fired unexpectedly. I unloaded it with the floorplate, removed the spent casing and closed the bolt. When I closed the bolt the firing pin dropped again. Had I just chambered another round it would have fired it as well. Sitting there in the blind with our ears ringing and thinking about all that could have potentially gone wrong I had a sick feeling in my stomach. Thankfully there were no issues but we were then done hunting for the morning. I tried repeatedly to get it to fail again and I did get it to a few times. It was very random and there was no repeatability to the circumstances that would make it fail. I own 5 Remington model 7 or 700s and now I am super concerned about their triggers. Where do I go from here? Do I need to send them back to Remington or can I send the triggers to a gunsmith and have them all looked at to make sure they are safe? I know there is a huge recall on the triggers but what is the general consensus about how Remington handles it and an approximate turn around time? I know I could replace them all with an aftermarket trigger but at $125-150 each that is certainly not in the budget right now. I am curious at to what the right thing to do is at this point. I like the guns but if safety is an issue, could be just as happy with something else.

Thank God nobody was seriously hurt or killed! I've never been impressed with or have trusted Remington's triggers since they've had ongoing issues with them since inception which has resulted in several lawsuits, redesigns, recalls etc.

The couple of 700's I have left have had the factory triggers changed out to Timney or Trigger Tech triggers.

Well now, you obviously have not followed this topic here on the 'fire. If you had done so, you would realize that Remington is completely blameless, and that this event was entirely of your own making, either through negligence in care, incompetence in adjustment, or careless gun handling. (We so badly need a sarcasm icon - please understand that I am in complete sympathy and agreement with you. Glad everyone was safe.)

Curious,
Was there any debris in the stock?
Was the stock rubbing on the trigger?
Have you adjusted the trigger?
How much sear engagement does the rifle have?
Does the adjustment screws look like they've been adjusted by a previous owner? That is there still a factory coating on the trigger adjustment screws?
Do you know the year of manufacture of the rifle?

But I have to agree, most of the issues are from people adjusting the engagement, and the trigger pressure screws. People trying to get benchrest trigger pull on a hunting rifle's trigger.

extreme -

I'm also VERY glad that no one was injured/killed. Obviously the 700 triggers can have problems.

I ask a sincere, not critical, question. Did you or someone else adjust or try to adjust the trigger?

Being an OLD shooter/hunter/Remington user, I would try a few experiments (EMPTY CHAMBER) with the sear engagement of your trigger and see if I could solve the problem.

If I could not fix it, I would simply get a Timney.


Good Luck

Jerry

The trigger definitely does not have the original sealer on the screws and has been adjusted. It has been tested by slamming the bolt, bouncing the buttpad on a concrete floor and has been fired on many different occasions with zero issues. I have taken it from the safe and handled it/dry fired it many times as well with no issues. If it was your gun would you feel comfortable having a gunsmith look it over/re-adjust the trigger and live happily ever after or would you always be skeptical of the trigger? I know I have seen mention of a few guys here on the 'fire who are well versed in the 700 triggers. Who would be a good smith to contact about having all of my triggers gone over to make sure there are no issues in the future?

My guess is that if you keep that trigger you will always wonder about it. I'd just send it down the river and be done with it for the peace of mind.

You could talk to Eddie Fosnaugh at Fosnaugh Customs.

The only trigger I've had an issue with was an after market trigger on a 700. Never with a Remington trigger. Just luck???

It's never happened on one of my guns but I've gotten used Remington's in gunshops to do it.

Personally I would never trust it. At the minimum all my Remington's would go to a quality smith to be looked at, but honestly I would replace the trigger in the model 7 and sell all my other Remington's and replace them with other rifles. So glad no one was hurt.

Glad you and your Son are ok...very scary stuff right there. I sold my last 700 to my cousin and I've begged him to send it in and as of yet he hasn't.

Send it in to Remington. They should be good to you.

Which trigger is it? Is it the an X-Mark Pro trigger covered under the recall?

http://xmprecall.remington.com

If your a remington type kind of guy, sell the 700's and get 760/7600s. If your just a bolt guy, sell the 700's and get a tikka/ruger/M70/CZ.

Live in the sticks, but was driving near Portland, Or a few weeks ago, and heard a Rem 700 recall on the radio. Sounds like they are at least concerned.

Typical!!
Some one set the return spring wrong on the trigger and 20 haters join on the feast of running down a product.

They will always be haters. But you have to tune out the bullshit.

I will agree that most of these remmy incidents occur after an idiot "tunes" the trigger, but why dont you hear about the M70/77/etc. that goes off when you dis-engage the safety? Idiots dont touch these guns? Sad to say, but in todays world there has to be a level of idiot-proof engineered into a trigger.

What year is the rifle?
Have you or anybody else adjusted the trigger lately?
Have you cleaned the trigger by shooting solvent (like brake cleaner).....ever.

Pull the stock off. On a right hand rifle, look on the left side of the trigger housing for a very small window. With the gun cocked, look into the window, you should see the sear and trigger lever engaged--meaning the sear should be on top of the trigger lever, overlapping it by ~.020.

Odds are the trigger is dirty.

Every follow down on the firing pin and/or AD on M700's/M7's I've seen have been dirty trigger or misadjusted trigger--especially if they mess with the sear engagement screw.

I have bought two M700's that had a dangerously small of amount of sear engagement (well under .020). Both of them from 'fire members.

Casey

It sounds like your trying to make this out to be a Leupold thread...

The strength of the M700 trigger was also it's downfall--it is eminently adjustable--whereas most other factory production triggers are barely adjustable.

Casey

Extremesolo,

And I am remiss in saying I'm glad you and your son were not hurt.

At this juncture the best advice is to take the rifle to your gunsmith and have it cleaned and inspected.

I'm betting a cleaning will address the problem.

Casey

Never trust it and you won't have a dangerous problem.

But by design, there will always be the possibility that the trigger disconnector does not reset properly and it has another AD. This can happen (rarely) even if the trigger is properly adjusted if there is some piece of sand/dirt that gets in between the disconnector.

If you plan to keep the rifle and want a "safe" trigger, then you will have to swap it out for a replacement brand or an XMark version.

I'd never trust a Walker trigger. I've picked up brand new rifles off the shelf and had them go off when the safety is pushed off.

Change it to a Timney.

I need one on those sticky tongue out icon thingies.......

Seriously Bob, nothing wrong with the orignal M72x/700 triggers.

Proportionally, Remmy triggers have no more or less failure rate than others.

The M700 is the most popular bolt sporter ever, naturally you will hear more about it.

Not you Bob, but I am continually surprised by how many Pro-2A folks bought into CNBC's hit piece that was designed to hurt Remington's parent company.

Clean the trigger. If necessary, have the gunsmith dismantle the trigger assembly and check for grit under the connector, although that is rarely necessary.

Casey

Wouldn't own another Remington on a dare. Only one I own is a 22-250 bull barrel that we use for ground hogs in PA and we NEVER use the safety, besides, the POS doesn't even lock the bolt...

Walkers floating connector is an AD just waiting to happen. Flawed design from the git go.

I have a supply of pre-1983 safety levers that lock the bolt--all my serious hunting rifles are equipped with one. Indeed, my two serious elk getters have the first few years of M700 production verily "dangerous" flat knob safety levers.

Nothing wrong with remmy triggers. Trying to adjust a Vanguard trigger is well, not really an adjustment..........


Casey

Nope just pointing out that people have opinions and [bleep]. Some are so ignorant of the facts and ignorant about the world around them that there opinions smell as bad as their butts.

People that modify tested and engineered factory rifles and then complain how bad the company was when they were at fault but refuse to admit their stupidity fall into this category.

Walker made one mistake. He never dreamed that people would change the factory tuned trigger, these people who have no idea of what they are doing nor the consequences of their stupidity deserve what they get.

What is a crime is someone screwing up a well designed and thoroughly tested piece of equipment and then selling it to an innocent victim.

I have a Remington that was subject to the recall...contacted Remington, it was weeks before the shipping box arrived. I figured if it took them that long to get a box to me I wasn't going to dismount the scope from a really good shooting outfit and send the rifle off to them for who the hell knows how long....and if they couldn't get it right the first time....I bought a Timney, put it in, problem solved.

....this close enuff, or maybe



they're available on 'full screen reply'.

Jerry

I wouldn't toss the trigger or rifle until I did what the other guys said.I also would check to see if the trigger is rubbing on one side of the trigger guard or the other. (The slot where the trigger comes through the trigger guard.) I have seen that happen on more than a dozen rifles in my time. Also, if the adjustment screw has been turned out and not re-epoxied it can creep further out. Also, on a lot of 700's once that trigger adjustment screw has been turned out, you will need to relieve the wood in front of the screw so it doesn't bear against the web/wood. On plastic stocks there is a bigger or no danger of that. Of course, if you decide to replace it with a Timney, you will probably have to make sure the bolt release lever and/or the trigger itself isn't rubbing causing the trigger not to return. I recently replaced 4 X Mark triggers with Timney's, and had to do some relieving of the trigger guard material before they were safe to use. After that, I think the Timney trigger is good to go. That's all I use on my Mausers!
I have adjusted hundreds of Remington 700 triggers and I have never had a failure yet!! I am sure I would have heard about it if one had failed.

Ken

I have a Timney on a 98 and love it.

I haven't counted but I've adjusted 15-20 Rem triggers that lock the bolt when engaged.
I "never" touched the sear engagement. SO FAR I've had NO problems with them.

I have a 700 BDL 7 RM and the trigger has been VERY light for many years-----no trouble whatsoever.

It seems to me that at least some of the trigger 'failures' are the results of dirt, stock warping, and or MIS adjusting. IMO

As many 700s as I've had, seems strange to me none have mal functioned.

Jerry

It is improperly adjusted and the OP knew it...

It also brings up the simple point that one should never have a hot chamber until the last minute in getting ready to shoot...

Missing an opportunity at ANY critter is not worth the risk. Loading and unloading at the vehicle are the most dangerous times of the day...

Hoo Boy! Now you done it! And just as this thread was going to bed too.

(Not that you're wrong; just the way I do it as well.... what's a safety? )

Casey I have never seen the CNBC program. Know nothing about it.

Had an older Remington get out of adjustment here recently. It was not tuned by me, and somebody else commented on how light the trigger was when I was checking zero. I agreed that it did seem rather light, lighter than I remembered. Upon bringing it home, my digital gauge showed about 1.5lbs. Sure enough, when I racked the bolt hard, the pin would sometimes fall. Yikes. Upon disassembly, I found that no sealant had been put on the screws after adjustment. It had taken about 15 years for the trigger to gradually get unsafe. I added a bit of sear engagement and pull weight and resealed the screws. It's now at 2.2lbs.

For the record, I never "trust" a bolt-gun safety. I expect the gun not to slamfire or fire when the safety is disengaged, but I treat the bolt handle as the main safety, especially when I'm hunting with others or I'm on the move.

If y'all don't want those Remingtons, just send them to me.

Yep, complete nonsense.

I simply didn't think to say....
I RE sealed the adjustment screws on every one adjusted.

Jerry

I have yet to meet an AK guide that agrees with you...

And?

One difference... You can get yours to repeat. The experts in the court cases could not get the malfunction to repeat, casting doubt on their allegations..

Ooops, read your second post.. The trigger being monkeyed with, you cannot blame Remington..

Buy a Timmney.

G

$150.00 will fix the problem, Timney trigger. Myself,would never feel comfortable with the factory trigger again. Even though someone screwed it up.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS!



How hard is it to figure out? If you aren't comfortable with a Remington Trigger, replace it!

Again, that one aint Remington's fault.

Extremesolo,

Often a hunting rifle trigger that has been adjusted to have very little creep will not have a problem in the warmth of your home. However as soon as you apply cold ( the outdoors) it can effect your trigger because metal does slightly shrink in the cold and a little shrinkage is enouph. For this reason I always leave a little creep in a hunting rifle trigger. Best of luck and glad nobody was injured.


Trystan

Jewell, Trigger Tech or Timney. I would not trust the safety even if re-worked by a competent gunsmith. The older models were easy to adjust, the newer ones seem to have softer metal that is not as reliable. No experience with the Xmark types.

JEWELL!
I currently have two 700's and will not be buying another. The trigger issue in concert with failures of the extractor to work properly and the plunger ejector fouling with brass shavings easily makes the choice easy.
The only reason I am keeping the two I have is they have some sentimental value. One was my dad's 375 he used extensively in Africa and the other started out as a 700 classic in 7mm weatherby that I used on a Dall and caribou hunt I went on with my dad.

From an engineer's perspective I agree with this. 99.999% of the time is just not good enough when it comes to triggers. The old Walker design with the floating connector is simply one to many parts for 100% reliability, especially if someone has monkey'ed with it like you mentioned.

I experienced this first-hand with a friend's 700 in 280rem. Loved the gun and caliber until a cold morning when the grease/oil/whatever he had built up within the trigger caused the connector to hang. Released the safety and "CLICK" on an empty chamber. I could NEVER trust it after that.

I would either send it to Remington to get an X-Mark trigger installed (different internal design vs. old Walker style) or get a Timney. I am a big fan of the Timney.

I don't have a dog in this fight, other than I hate to see any company, particularly a shooting sports company, railroaded in court. I do not own any Remington bolt action rifles with the triggers in question. I haven't formed any real opinion one way or the other, there's too much hyperbole on both sides for me to truly make what I feel is an informed opinion.

Now then, Remington's "favorite" expert witness, Jack Belk, has weighed in on the new X-mark trigger as well. Sorry for the long post, I can only find a pdf of it and couldn't link to it.

Seems to me that Mr. Belk is more interested in destroying Remington while enriching himself in the process than fixing the problem though. Here's his deposition on it in yet another lawsuit against Remington:


JACK BELK GUNWORKS
PO Box 123 Oakley, Idaho 83346 (775) 397-4339
[email protected]

September 28,2015

Supplemental report of H. J. (Jack) Belk, Jr.

Clerk of Court
Charles Evans Whittaker Courthouse
Attn: Clerk’s Office
400 East 9th Street
Kansas City, MO 64106

Angeion Group
Attn: Remington Claims
Suite 660, 1801 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19103

Re: Pollard v. Remington Arms Co., LLC, et al., Case No. 4:13-cv-00086-ODS

May it please the Court, in my continuing avocation and vocation of gun examination and repair, six X Mark Pro triggers were obtained from Terry Miller Gun Repair in Twin Falls, Idaho.

These triggers were removed from customer's rifles so that aftermarket triggers could be installed. These triggers were retained by Mr. Miller at my request. Mr. Miller advised he did not have a record of which guns had these triggers originally installed, but they were all taken
from Remington Model 700 rifles.

All six triggers appear to be factory sealed using three different sealants either alone or in combination. All six triggers carry different markings on their housings. There are three different markings on the sears and three variations of triggers. Three triggers have two trigger return springs and three triggers have one return spring.

The “F” Trigger
One of the six triggers is unique in that it has a stamped letter "F" near the lower left corner of the right side of the assembly housing. The F Trigger as I call it is of the single return spring type with a bright finished safety lever showing signs of camo paint at the distal end. The F Trigger also displays a bright red safety block. This appears to be thick paint. This paint was applied to the safety block after assembly of the trigger but no effort was made at sealing or locking the important safety locking block adjusting screw with the paint. The safety block adjusting screw and the other two screws of the assembly were instead locked and sealed with what appears to be LocTite 422/422MS. It is purple in color and appears to have wicking capabilities that makes it a low strength thread locker that is applied after assembly.

All three adjustment screws appear to have this factory applied purple sealant.

The F Trigger is defective, dangerous, and totally unpredictable in performance due to the inoperable nature of the trigger return spring. The trigger in the F Trigger assembly has no spring tension at all, but the sealed adjustment screw head appears to be in the correct position for proper trigger return spring tension. There is a trigger return spring present in the assembly and it can be seen by microscope through the safety block hole, but it is in no way active. There is no effect whatsoever by the spring on the trigger, and the F Trigger is of the single spring configuration and so the trigger has no alternative method for insuring proper relocation under the sear.

It was initially assumed that the trigger return spring of the F Trigger is locked in place by excess thread sealant, but there is a question of how the spring can be locked in the fully compressed position when the trigger should have some over-travel motion spring return even at the 'at rest
and fired' position.

The fact there is no spring return over the entire motion of the trigger indicates some kind of mechanical interference that makes the spring inoperable. Further investigation is needed to identify this heretofore unknown defect in the X Mark Pro trigger.

The F Trigger is different in the trigger pivot pin, also. The F Trigger has no provision for a 'locker ring' to be placed on the trigger pivot pin. It is assumed the locker groove was implemented later in the production cycle and utilizes a longer pivot pin with a retaining groove for the lock ring, but this particular one doesn't have it.

The most notable and critically important difference in the F Trigger can only be seen when the trigger is dismounted from the gun and the sear removed. It was observed before sear removal that the active sear surface, where it contacts the cocking stud, is well worn and is showing delaminations of the plating from many cocking and firing repetitions. The wear present in that place was more than is usually encountered on a Remington sear, so I expected to find broken, chipped, and worn internal trigger parts from the considerable amount of firing. What was found instead is a totally different finish applied to the MIM trigger that shows hardly any wear at all. The top of the trigger and the bottom of the sear have a surface finish different and distinct from other XMP triggers previously examined.

Based on my extensive experience with over-ride triggers of all makes and models, and my testing of XMP triggers associated with this case in particular, the F Trigger is unique by having first an inoperable trigger return spring and secondly a distinct difference in wear patterns between sear and trigger. The difference in wear patterns could be due to a metallurgical failure as evidenced by excessive wear to the top of the sear, or it could be due to a great metallurgical success in the treatment given of the top of the trigger as evidenced by a lack of wear there.

ANALYSIS AND OPINION
The F Trigger, is in my opinion, a very early XMP specimen and probably falls within the previous 'recall' effort by Remington. But the fault found in the F Trigger is totally different than publicized in that effort of 2014. This trigger is in a 'failed condition' at room temperature. The safety lever is in no way involved in the failure. The F Trigger also exhibits wear capabilities far beyond what has been seen previously and seems to have far superior materials within it, the inoperable trigger return spring not withstanding.

“Excess sealant” is certainly present in the F trigger and all the XMP triggers examined. Sealant or adhesive could be the primary causation of the F Trigger failure, but the fact that there is any sealant at all inside the trigger assembly shows a defect in design and workmanship. Early Walker triggers and some later Walker triggers sent to foreign countries were sealed by 'staking' the adjustment screws. No previous Remington triggers have had thread lockers applied, only a simple 'cover' sealant that showed any disturbance of the adjustment screws. As clearly shown by Remington's own efforts at repair, thread lockers and sealants should not be present in trigger mechanisms and is certainly counter to the instruction manual's warnings and demands to keep the trigger clean.

Taken in their entirety as a cross-section of XMP triggers taken out of service by a small town gunsmith, the six Miller triggers represent a dangerous condition not unlike the already known to be defective Walker triggers and re-enforces the opinions gathered from previously examined XMP triggers by this investigator.

Conclusion
The X Mark Pro trigger is not only ill suited as a replacement for the Walker, many of them represent a continuing hazard to the public who are still unaware of the dangerous conditions that exist within it.

____________________________

If you hunt with an AK guide here your chamber will be cold until he instructs you to fill it... simple fact.

Ahem!! I was agreeing with you. (Does that mean you don't agree with yourself? ) The guides I know agree with ME!

Who's on first?

Nearly one year since this Alaska Hunter Safety Instructor lost the battle with a

hot chamber....

Are hot chambers only frowned at when used by hunters?

Concealed carry, LEO, home defense arms carried or stored unloaded?

I don't see much difference.

If one were to hunt in our thick terrain, he would be lucky to see a deer, let alone see, load, and kill it. You may sit on the road and catch one crossing and get a shot if deer is walking and you are quick to load... But sitting on the road and hunting is illegal.

g

I didn't see, how old is this 3 year old rifle?

I"ve got a passle of rems... and I like to think at one point we shot more than most folks in a year.

I've never had an issue and one of them is an older one... 81 IIRC, and I've tuned it down to under a pound and its burned up 2 barrels so far... no issues.


As to all the comments about glad no one was hurt, yes, I agree, but there is no way in HELL that anyone should have ever been in any danger if it was handled correctly.

Guns are mechanical, the ONLY reliable safety is the user, triggers are mechanical and can or will fail eventually through enough cycles...

Hmm, I've never not been able to chamber a round as I raised the gun...and I'm a bit challenged in the coordination department most days....

Hunting in Alaska is much, much different. I grew up hunting in the east, always had a hot chamber and a safety I could some what rely on (not a 700). When I started hunting in Alaska during my residence there, I heeded the advice of those more experienced than me and only carried rounds in the magazine. I continued that practice for ten years and enforced it upon friends and family I hunted with. No one ever had a mishap, and good thing as help is usually too far away to make a difference. You simply dont jump shoot animals in Alaska, its mostly a pure spot and stalk. I never felt hindered by not carrying a chambered round. Now that I am back east and "big game" ala deer are hunted much the same as cottontails, carrying an empty chamber would be akin to throwing a speer...

When in Rome do what the Romans do...perspective and locale is relative.

Absolutely! !

Deer DON'T like clanking metal sounds at close range.


Jerry

Professional Hunters demand the exact opposite. I expect to get to Alaska one of these days, but I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I get there and we are about to move in on a bear...

I have had one Rem trigger issue and I currently have 5 700's. The one issue was with a gun assembled by Brown Precision and not touched by anyone but them. The gun fired on bolt closing on the range over sand bags twice in a row. I had hunted the gun for several years after purchase with NO issues. When we dissasambled the gun my smith buddy took the trigger apart and found a sliver of metal had peeled off the sear. He stoned the parts square again and reassembled. I have now shot the gun for another ten years with no issues.

Once a year I take all of my 700's down and clean the trigger group with a spray brake parts cleaner to keep any oil accumulation from gunking them up. I have both old bolt locking and newer model triggers and none of the x triggers. The only let off reduction have been done by professional smiths and all of the screws have been resealed with something to include nail polish.

I also clean my Ruger 77's that way once a year.

YMMV

IIRC even Walker told Remington the design was not good. I don't understand why so many people run around in denial of this problem with the Walker trigger.

I agree with docbill.

Take some brake cleaner and spray the trigger housing...if you have not already done so.

If you spray over a container, you should see some discoloration in the run off.

Give it time to dry...then oil exactly the way the instructions say.

I've had the same issue...one time. Years of improper oiling that had become sticky was causing the sear to drag and not to pop up fast enough to hold the firing pin back.

Might be the cause of you wows as well.

Having shot deer in no fewer than half the states in the US with cold chambers I have trouble understanding how people psych themselves into thinking it cannot be done. Virtually all of the border states, north and south, and a pretty good mixture of the rest...

Yup, I agree with you!

Think I missed that one... I was in NY deer hunting with a cold chamber.

You're about the only one. I've hunted deer all over NYS for 41 years. I personally know hundreds of deer hunters and have run into probably hundreds more out hunting and I don't know, nor have I ever run into ONE who hunts a cold chamber.

I suspect we could all tell a story or three of a close call of some kind where we knew better and things could have turned out way worse than they did, whether with a gun, a knife, a boat, truck....whatever. But this fellow, a very respected guy who came up on the wrong end of one such situation - which a cold chamber would have, for certain, prevented. I dropped off a half-cord of bone dry spruce (to his widow) last weekend, and it seems like the pain, though she is learning to live beyond it, never goes away. The world isn't better for the loss of more good people - as I think the majority of folks here probably are.

Anyone who studies it carefully and uses their noggin should be able to see that this is TRUE.

I never seen anybody hunt with a cold chamber in my life.

There you go.

Most folks don't clean their trigger assemblies. Very few used rifles I've bought off the gun rack had clean triggers or bolt/firing pins.

Casey

NOR have I. I've hunted Ark, La, Miss, & Al. I don't know anyone personally who hunts w/a cold chamber.


Jerry

You're killing me Bob.

I've heard this several times, nobody can tell me where or when Walker allegedly said that.

I'm pretty sure it's the program you haven't seen (Remington Under Fire), where Walker criticizes Remington for changing his inspection protocol on some of the trigger parts after he retired. In the same interview Walker says his design is a good one.

Casey

Here you guys go. To cut to the chase Walker's interview starts at 24:35.

Remington Under Fire

Casey-

I really have heard BOTH versions of that and I don't let it bother me. I've been running 700s since 1975 OR 1976. I swear I've never had ONE problem. I don't lose sleep over it.


Jerry

Jerry,

I know, I know. It's just the whole urban myth about Remington's triggers.........how otherwise reasonable can people believe in voodoo......

Sheesh.

Casey

Have had one for 30 to 40 years, bought it used, adjusted trigger myself and have had no issue.

Here is a ten-minute video where a gunsmith explains the problem of the Remington trigger quite well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SqRH3tHhdM,

He doesn't feel that there is much of a problem as long as the trigger is adjusted properly and kept clean.

Yup that's what I had seen before. The memo's are what they are.

Are rifles with the X-mark trigger having issues also or only the older style trigger?

I always hunt with a cold rifle. As Jorge notes, I am sure when head out for buffalo next year I will be asked to carry hot.

When I was asked to swap four Remington triggers to Timney triggers a few years ago, all of the triggers to be removed were X Mark triggers. The owner of the rifles said they, according to Remington, were all under the replacement program that was new and effect at that time. These 4 triggers were not all the same but were called X Mark triggers. Two had no external adjustments,(meaning having to take barreled action out of the stock), and the other two had external adjustments using a Remington provided allen wrench. One of those had a hole in the trigger guard and came with a wrench with a green handle. The other had no hole in the trigger guard and had a regular looking allen wrench. I am not sure, but my guess is that there must have been another model after I replaced those four.
I have no idea what the current X Mark trigger looks like, but I assume it is almost "lawyer proof".
If I had a bunch of the pre X Mark triggers, I could make some decent money on them! They are also safe if taken care of and used properly.
Ken

I DON'T imply by any means that others have NOT encountered trigger problems. It's just I haven't.


Jerry

Just do an internet search for 700 triggers and litigation. IT's there and it's real. Now do one fro Model 70, Ruger, Savage, etc.

HINT: there aren't any.

Damn! That comment just gave me a case of the schits!!

I hunt cold chamber quite a bit..several things make it a necessity, in my opinion. One is rough country, another is needing to sling the rifle, and the third is hunting in close proximity to other people. More than once I've had someone with a hot chambered rifle slung over their shoulder manage to point the rifle close enough me to make me nervous. I can bolt a cartridge in pretty quickly. When I use a lever action it is almost instantaneous. I do hunt hot chamber if I am putting the sneak on a deer I've previously seen, or when I'm on a stand. I even bird hunt cold chamber a lot...with a pump action it's easy. Just drop the hammer on an empty chamber with the shotgun pointing safely away from anything you don't want to shoot, and then while bringing the shotgun up, work the action. It's pretty fast! Has being cold chamber cost me a deer or a bird? Probably...but it's worth it in my opinion. One of my former hunting buddies used to carry hot chamber in the vehicle...we're still friends but we don't hunt together anymore.

I don't know if it matters but Remington designed and built the Walker triggers. The XMP triggers are sourced from an outside vender and Remington did NOT design them. This of course does not let Remington off the hook...if anything it makes for one more area where quality control is out of their hands. Ive heard tell that they have also outsourced all wood stocks.

To the OP, I see you haven't responded back on here. IF your trigger is eligible, call Remington. They will let you send them JUST the trigger if you want. I have done this twice. The new triggers are also adjustable but most folks don't use common sense when doing so.

As to the new topic; hunting with a cold chamber, hunting in Alaska is no different than hunting anywhere else for the most part- safe is safe.

If you are hunting with ANYONE else, an empty chamber is a good practice. If you are creeping through thick timber expecting to jump something, an empty chamber is a huge handicap. I keep my chamber empty most of the time. I'll chamber a round when I sit down to make a stand (varmint calling, elk calling etc). I'll keep it loaded when still hunting thick stuff and the rifle is IN MY HANDS. When I am hunting with anyone else. I keep my chamber empty until time to shoot and expect the same from them or won't hunt with them.

When I get a new 700 in to work on, I typically remove the trigger and throw it in the ultrasonic tank. I think inspect it with an eye loupe thoroughly. After that, I clean with solvent, dry and lube properly. I reinstall and make sure it is adjusted to be safe. I won't set them too low even if someone insists. I make them buy a Shilen or Timney if they want a 2# trigger.

There are several variations of the Walker trigger, beginning with the M721, the X Mark which lasted only a couple years, and the externally adjustable X Mark Pro.

Most folks can't tell you what trigger they have on their Rem centerfires.

Casey

if my son was going to use this rifle I would have the trigger replaced with something else that blocks the sear just for my own sanity, you can buy timneys for around $100.00 dollars and that is cheap insurance and peace of mind when it comes to my children

Could be because there are darn near as many 700's as all the others you mentioned combined.

It's a numbers game Jorge.

Casey

^ This

I've had the same experience with a Rem trigger. Same deal. Twice or three times in a row it dropped the hammer when the safety was moved to the off position. Near brand new 700. Never messed with the trigger at all.

Chamber was empty.

Hasn't done it since.

Walker recognized that not long after he invented it.
Walker wanted to change it.
Would have cost Rem. .02 per trigger and the company said no.
The original floating connector trigger when built and adjusted to Walkers specs.
Worked.
What Rem. did after Walker retired.
ie... chit machine work..
And what every half assed dickfaced smith has adjusted.
Is where the problem comes from.

dave

I'm convinced that's why the old M70 trigger was discontinued.

No problems like a Walker and it was very reliable; but it could be too easily adjusted too much,and that leads to too many potential problems from a liability standpoint.

I recommend and install Timney triggers to all my Remington customers. Maybe Remington should consider a striker safety such as used by Winchester and Weatherby. Just sayin.

Not really. There are NONE for the other rifles. The WHOLE Remington 700 was designed to cut costs and increase production-PERIOD. From the bolt handle, sheet metal extractor, no-locking bolt safety, etc. There is a reason as to why there is an entire Cottage Industry built around "improving" 700s. Yes part of it is a numbers game but most is to improve factory shortcomings.

My dad built quite a few rifles with military Mauser actions and always used a Timney trigger in them. I have only 1 700, a newer XCR that came with the Mark X Pro trigger. When I found out about the recall, rather than send in the whole rifle and wait 6 months to get it back (in who knows what condition), I simply ordered a replacement Timney. They may not be the best for benchrest and target rifles, but they can't be beat for a hunting trigger. I will say that the 700 trigger was MUCH more expensive than the Mauser trigger....

I think Timney is the way to go, for sure. I have one 700 with the old trigger. I had a problem with it once and determined that it was full of old grease and dirt. I have never had a problem since.

Jorge,

Most BR actions are beefed up copies of the 700. Forbes rifle is a "7/8 copy" of the 700 action.

Do a internet search of "dangerous", "unsafe" ladders and the hits will be almost entirely about Werner ladders. Why--because Werner outsells everybody else by a wide margin.

It's a numbers game.

The trigger lever engages the sear the same on every aftermarket trigger for 700's, and is similar for most sporting bolt action. Dirt between those two surfaces creates the identical condition regardless if a thin piece of metal (connector) is involved.

Once a person understands the mechanism it's easy to understand. It ain't rocket science

Casey

I've had similar happen to me in a stand with my son but with a Sako. Smith had adjusted trigger put Loctite on the screws and the Loctite had migrated into the mechanism.

A safe trigger really is vital. For 20years I never thought about sear engagement (other than to test for safe operation) then I dropped my rifle off sticks one morning. It did a neat pirouette and landed butt first pointing at me and my dog. I had been about to fire - it was not on safe

Yes but if you refine the search it mitigates that. Look, we'll have to agree to disagree. By all the aforementioned 700 maladies, I wouldn't own one on a dare. J

Mike Walker admitted there was a problem with the floating connector. I don't know how that's even up for debate?

I've had 700's since around 1978, and currently have 5 700's and a couple of Model 7's. I have adjusted the triggers down to my liking, and have replaced 2 that wouldn't adjust like I wanted. Zero problems.

http://remingtonfirearmsclassactionsettlement.com/

If you watch the interview he says there was a problem with the manufacturing of a part. He said the design was sound. He also stated he designed another trigger which he preferred, but the cost was prohibitive for the company to change.

Heard of 2 in the last week firing in the safety on position. NIB rifles. Go figure. If I didnt have a cellar full of remmy stuff I wouldnt know which way to look for a new favorite. Oh wait....
Glad I scored a 6.5 in a Howa from Derrick. Thinking that will be my boring toy for the next few years.... Weaning myself off the 700s.

W

Nothing wrong with an experienced person skillfully adjusting a REM trigger. But, neglecting a stock box trigger is bad, and worse is to neglect a lightened box trigger.

Every season, remove the barreled action from the stock, and while inspecting the trigger, hose it down and flush it out with a bottle of Ronson lighter fluid. This will keep it clean and leave just enough lubrication to keep the trigger running trouble free. If neglected, debris and the various solvents and oils used on the rifle will creep into the trigger, and will gum the works over time, which can lead to the issues you describe. A trigger set on the light end will hang up quicker than one set on the heavier end.

If neglected badly enough so that a varnish has built up, or the wrong product, such as an alox, was applied, you may need to remove the trigger and soak in a solvent to remove the varnish. Once clean, lightly lubed with the residual of the Ronson, properly adjusted, and with the yearly inspection and cleaning; it should run for quite some time before physically wearing out.

Best

Good advise this.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Walker was in his 90's when that interview was conducted and may well have been confused. But in 1946 and again in 1948 he was perfectly clear in written memo's to management stating his concerns about a "serious safety issue" with his trigger design. I've seen copies of the memo's.

Any trigger that is dirty or adjusted improperly can fail. But the floating connector is unique to the Walker trigger design. It has proven beyond doubt that it can allow the sear to be released with no trigger pull. It can fail with a brand new, perfectly clean rifle with the trigger pull adjusted to 15 lbs, it is irrelevant to the problem.

It has been estimated that less than 1/2 of 1 percent of all of these rifles will ever do this. But it is also a fact that 100% of them could do so the next time the gun is picked up. The fact that someone has owned several rifles for years with no problems changes nothing.

I've owned 8-10 700's or 7's over the last 45 years. One purchased new in 1975 did it the 1st time in the 1990's. Never had an issue again until about 2 years ago when it did it a 2nd time. It got a Timney at that point. The factory trigger was never adjusted and it was perfectly clean.

That's an awfully straight-forward post.

I have several Timney's, but recently installed my first Trigger Tech Trigger. They are a lot simpler and easier to install than a Timney. I think that is all I will buy in the future.

Excellent post and right on the money. Wish I could have articulated it so well myself. The thick headed Remington fan boys won't be convinced no matter what though. I've tried before and it's a waste of time.

This very same thing happened to me in 1983, the first year the model 7 came out. It was a 308, which I never messed with, nor did I ever have a gunsmith adjust anything. My son and I were at deer camp, the week b/4 season doing some scouting. We were sighting in our rifles, and when I pushed the safety to the fire position, the gun fired. I never shot it again. I took it back to the shop where I bought it, told them what happened, and that I did not want the rifle anymore. They gave me what I paid them for it, and I purchased a Weatherby VGL that I have to this day. They sent the rifle back to Remington, but can't remember what the outcome was.

You might have the old trigger with the 2 piece connector and have crap in it or you have a poorly adjusted sear. Bring it to a good gunsmith and have him fix it .


FWIW it happened to me on a brand new Remington 700 ADL i bought in the 70's only time it happened BTW

Anything made by man can go cowchit.That being said I have owned lots of Rem.700`s with no problems.One of my pet peeves is watching guys clean their rifles from the breech end with no bore guide,Guess where all that residue and barrel cleaning gunk ends up??Then folks wonder why they have trigger problems.

Some of you guys are obfusticating the issue on purpose.

The "design problem" of the Walker trigger is in the trigger disconnector. It has nothing to do with the normal wear-and-tear or dirtiness that every trigger must endure.

If the disconnector does not reset due to any reason, then the trigger will AD. That is simply a design difference between the Walker trigger and every other design.

Remingtons remedy when the AD thing came around was the invention of remoil and to blast it thru the trigger mechanism. It's a lousy design, you can have the connector epoxied like it used to be done or get a replacement 700 trigger. I think I have one of the old triggers in a jar somewhere on my workbench.

There's only one problem with the Walker trigger. The tolerances were set to broad. If all the manufacturing tolerances are exactly wrong there's an issue. That's it! Anyone that says different is unknowlegable. Then there's the bib bubbas that's think they know what they are doing.

If I am by myself still hunting in timber my chamber will be hot. If I am just hiking around and my gun is on my pack, it is cold. Our rule is if we are hunting with 2-3 people every keeps their chamber empty with safety on until we have a deer sighted and are preparing to shoot.

We just had a hunter killed here in Nevada by another hunter because he forgot he had chambered a round several hours earlier. It is just too easy to snag a 3 pound trigger when hunting, especially with gloves. There is no deer or elk worth getting shot and dying over. I have yet to have a situation where chambering a round cost me an animal.

Be that as it may, that is not what he said.

Actually a rather uninformed post. Not a thing about sear engagement--and that's where most of the misadjusted trigger AD's come from. Of course, dirty triggers are still the other most frequent reason. Most rifles out there have never had their trigger assemblies cleaned.

I've bought very nice looking M70's from the 60's-90's that were FILTHY when the stock was removed--and was probably the first time the stock had ever been removed on those rifles.

I bought a rifle from a 'fire member that had a little more than half of the recommended sear engagement. If that gun had killed somebody I'm sure it would've been all Walker's fault...........

Casey

No it's a very informed post. Sear engagement has nothing to do with the FACT that the floating connector is an inherent and dangerous design flaw that can fail to engage at any time and totally unpredictably.

Mod 700 minus I zero problem solved..

[/quote] No it's a very informed post. Sear engagement has nothing to do with the FACT that the floating connector is an inherent and dangerous design flaw that can fail to engage at any time and totally unpredictably. [/quote]

Except that it's never been actually demonstrated.

Misadjusted triggers on the other hand, have.


Casey

And yet another thick headed SOB.

In the same way Leupold became so popular there has to be Leupold Haters, there also has to be Remington Haters........


Casey

I have been smithing for 33 years and have seen many Remington's that have experienced AD's and a very small percentage were ever screwed with. Maybe 2% had the sealant removed and the screws fiddled with. Quite a few years ago I started asking people who experienced a Remington AD what the scenario was when it happened. Almost all stated that when they carried the rifle all day and went to clear the chamber at camp or to enter their vehicle when the safety was pushed forward the rifle fired. The last one I dealt with came into the shop last year after the second season. The 700 was built in 1966 and was chambered in 30-06. Owner was standing near the left front fender of his then new Ford F250 and when the safety was moved forward the rifle fired and penetrated the left side of the cab between the windshield and wing window then shattered the back glass on the way out. His hunting buddy was sitting in the passenger seat and was hit with metal and or bullet fragment. Mostly superficial. I tried to cheer him up a bit and tell him we could enlarge the bullet hole and install a spotlight, he was not amused to say the least. I replaced his trigger with a Timney and all is good now. When I removed the stock and trigger it appeared that this rifle has never been apart since it left the factory. There were pine needles, dirt and old oil varnish everywhere inside.

It appears to me that when the safety is on and camming the transfer bar up the connector link is free to move about especially when it is carried all day from the vibration.

I have a box full of Walker triggers that were retained by me if the customer didn't want them. None of these show signs of ever being tampered with. Dirt, old oil, and wear seem to be the problem.

I've seen them do it. I have worked on guns full time for a living for over 8 years now. I have a FAR better understanding of how trigger mechanisms work than your average gun owner or even the above average enthusiast and I don't trust that floating connector. I don't give a shyt if yours goes off. I don't hunt with you or anyone who uses a Remington with a Walker trigger and I simply won't. I don't care if you blow your own or someone elses foot off or miss a chance at the trophy of a lifetime through your own ignorance/obstinance on the subject. Is that clear enough for you ?

Plus one on the minus one zero.

After reading your body of work here, you would never have a chance to hunt with me, no matter the rifle that I was carrying. As you say, "Is that clear enough for you ?". miles

I don't know what could possibly have made you think I'd ever want to hunt with you but I can assure you the thought has never crossed my mind and never would have. Is that clear enough for your stupid old azz ?

Just figured since you was throwing ultimatums around, I would chime in. miles

My model 660 "fired" on an empty chamber when my neighbor was showing it to me before I bought it. He had quit hunting several years ago and I honestly believe a good cleaning may have fixed the problem. He checked and there was a recall so he sent it to Remington. When it came back the safety no longer locked the bolt with the safety on. I replaced the safety with a New Ultralight Arms two position-three funtion safety after I bought the rifle.

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/safety-parts/safeties/remington-600-700-3-function-safety-prod13788.aspx?avs%7cMake_3=Remington

Years ago when I learned of this problem and spoke to a gunsmith about it, I switched to a Timney with the ULA 3 function safety installed. It was cheap enough to do. What's the price of peace of mind? My rifle is now safer and better because the ULA safety locks the bolt and allows the rifle to be unloaded with the safety on. With all the unnecessary add-on crap that people do to their rifles; what money is better spent then actually making your rifle safer?

There is a reason as to why there is an entire cottage industry built around "improving" the 700....

I was always liked Remington 700's and owned several over the years with never an issue. I traded into a older 700 mtn rifle that someone had bubba'ed the trigger on so I took it to the closest Factory service center and had told them to set it straight. It came back the best trigger I have ever used. However I finally began to think about how it would only take one accidental discharge and you might have a catastrophe so I bought one of the x mark triggers and went back to the service center to have it installed. Was informed well that is one of the triggers that might not be right and you'll have to send it back for certification before we can install it. That sort of tore it for me with Remington. I mean how stupid can you be? you have a trigger issue and come up with a replacement that turns out to have a problem. I was wanting to thin the herd some anyway and my Remington 700's got the nod. I admit to having a couple of their shotguns but that sort of did with me and Remington rifles. Theres too many others to choose from. On the other hand Im not sure Winchester is any brighter as they had a successful trigger design that worked for years and changed it to a different design.

Miles, I have an 80s Vintage 700 BDL 7 RM and STOCK trigger. That trigger is SO LIGHT ! ! It's been that way for YEARS.
I've BOUNCED it off the floor many Xs and NEVER - NOT ONCE has the trigger broke.

It'd give Blackheart the vapors! !

Jerry

ps - edit to add: I've killed several deer and my Son has killed several deer with that 700 Stock Trigger.

+1 on the Timney.

I have some vintage Walker triggers that are tweaked and work fine. I have even more Timneys.

I've used the new 510 which blocks the trigger, not just the sear. The idea, when you take it off safety, full sear engagement is guaranteed, consistent trigger pull assured.

I've gotten them on EBay for around $108 or so, shipped. They're easy to install and are very well made.

That'll be the last trigger you'll need and with no "issues".

I agree with other posters, after all that you'll NEVER trust that trigger again. I wouldn't and it wouldn't stay on my gun very long.

DF

D F & BobNH

I bought that 700 BDL 7 RM after 1986. So it's been @ 30 yrs and used PLENTY. I'v'e never had any qualms.

Do y'all really feel there is a RISK now after SO MUCH use ?

I sincerely do not.

Jerry

Just clean the trigger every year and DON'T mess with it and all will be good.

If one feels the need to mess with the trigger just get one that was made to mess with.

I have a 700 i got for Christmas about 40 years ago and it has not tried to do any of the weird crap that folks say that those triggers do.

By the way it has not been messed with.

YMMV

Does it still have a floating connector ? If it does I don't care if it's worked right for 100 years, it can AD the very next time you use it. It might be wise once in awhile for some of you guys to LISTEN to what the folks who work on guns for a living have to say. Go back and re-read what I and Dustylongshot wrote and try to open your mind.

Jerry I have fired off quite a few rounds over the years from Rem 700's and Walker triggers in 223,22-250,220 Swift,257 Roberts, 25/06, 7/08,7x57, 280.....7 Rem Mag....yadayada....have owned and shot them all.

So I'm not one to run from boogey men.

A lot of those rounds were fired before I learned of the issues, read one or two(?) of the cases involved and read what Walker himself had to say. Just because I used and trusted something years ago does not mean I feel the same today.

I'm also a lawyer by trade and understand a little about product liability...and also that just because something " has not happened to me does not mean that it can't ever happen " (a common human trapping; you see it on here every single day in virtually every thread involving things that did not work as expected).

You play percentages and you hedge bets with any rifle design.

I have personally seen more clogged up and fail to fire situations with Remington triggers than any other. Like I said I've had brand new ones in storeroom floors trip when a safety was released, in my hands.

When a guy like Mike Walker,who invented it,and had a long and distinguished career as a design engineer with Remington, tells us there can be a problem under certain conditions; conditions not all that uncommon in the hunting fields, you better listen up!!!!

Over the years you get cautious; you avoid some things... My Rem 700 6.5 Creedmoor was built with a Timney trigger and I will let it go at that.

I'm more likely to listen when it's not

SHOVED down my ear canal!

Jerry

I understand Bob and I've lived long enuff to NEVER say never.

ANYTHING is possible. Given sufficient time, problems with OTHER triggers may arise. I'm not speculating they WILL, it's just that we don't know YET.

I have a few OLDER 700s in house - the newest was bought in '95. When deer season is over I will EXTENSIVELY retest those stock Walker triggers.

Thanks for y'alls input.

Jerry

I own and know lots of people with 700's and model Sevens, which I think is the same trigger, and only know of one time something happening. I was present when it happened but did not actually see it. In that case the person was in the act of shooting a target, and someone came up and said something to him. He stopped, put the rifle on safe, and listened to that other person. When He took the rifle off of safe, it fired. Now I don't know, and I don't think the other person knows, if He had actually started the trigger to move a little, before stopping and putting it on safe. We did try to get a repeat, but could not. In all cases that I have read about, there are just too many unknowns to form an opinion that would hold up. I did know of a Mauser that would fire when closing the bolt, but that was from a Bubbaed trigger. Out of the many that I know of, I have never seen a handle fall off of one either, but many here seem to have had several. I did have a neighbor, one of the first that I knew that reloaded, that had lots of pressure problems and would have to beat the bolt open. This was mostly from using his reloads in several different rifles. He owned a lot of acres of fish ponds and all of his hired hands carried rifles that He owned and reloaded for. He never had an accidental fire or a handle fall off. miles

I've a Timney on a 700 that's not safe unless it's set to 4lb+. Point being it's not just Walker's that can have issues.

It always amazes me how people can be so insistent that the AD can't happen. Anything designed and/or made by man can fail. You hear all the times that companies are striving for "6 Sigma" which is 99.99966% of units being defect free and very few companies hit that mark ( I read somewhere that less than 20% of companies actually achieve that level). Remington has produced over 5 million 700s, even if they hit six sigma levels that's still over 1,700 defective triggers they put on the market.

Given the amount of turnover and history they've had being owned by by-out funds I would imagine that R&D and quality control haven't exactly been priorities the last several years while they are trying to service debt related to the buyout.

A product is much more likely to fail if it hasn't been maintained or was "fixed" by someone who didn't know what they were doing, but Remington isn't some holy grail of a company that is immune from the laws of statistics.

Your flippant comment about your 700 giving me the vapors made it apparent you needed it SHOVED somewhere.

Once AGAIN you are wrong. I was NOT being flippant. That trigger is light enuff for comp target shooting. TRUE

You are so used to being wrong you don't recognize when someone is telling the truth.

Jerry

I'm not wrong about much when it comes to guns there jocko. If you think I am it's only out of ignorance on your part. Once again you prove that with your assumption that a heavier pull weight setting would cancel the ability of the floating connector to malfunction or that your light trigger working correctly for years proves the connector will not malfunction the very next time you use it.

LMAO.





Dave

Bob,
Any mechanical device has a weak link somewhere, and any trigger assembly is dangerous if really dirty. There are more Walker triggers out there than any trigger assemblies by far--of course we are going to hear about AD's.

As my gunsmith says "99 percent of the M700 AD's are dirty triggers, mis-adjusted triggers or somebody hit the trigger lever when they didn't mean to".

The only critizism I've ever heard Mike Walker speak about or was quoted was when Remington dropped his QC program after Walker retired.

In my neck of the woods Vortex binos and spotters rule. If I were to judge the reliability of Vortx products based on the frequency of failures I'm aware of I would say Vortex quality sucks. But I know better--there's just a lot more Vortex's around here than any other "quality" brand.

Casey

Casey I understand that anything mechanical can fail. But I can't recall another rifle manufacturer of bolt action rifles involved in as much litigation as Remington.

Unless I am losing my mind I recall a memo by Walker,uncovered during discovery in one of the lawsuits...... that clearly indicated to management that the trigger could have issues.(Forgive me if I ant quote chapter and verse. This isn't a court room.

I'm not trying a case here so will not bother to dig it up; but the memo was there and dated back to pre 1950 if I recall. That's a long time before Walker retired.

Again the memo dated back to the late 40's or early 50's which put Remington management on notice of a defect. The memo by itself is enough evidence against Remington to leverage a settlement.

Cases get settled because there is evidence indicating that either side can win.....or lose and someone was facing major exposure.....And lawyers for both sides knew it.

Apparently Timneys aren't 'fail safe'.

Bob, I believe the memo way back then that is often quoted is about QC. Walker found that tolerances were more critical with his design.


Casey

had it happen with a 700 bdl 270.

Guys, just for clarity...

I don't doubt that it has happened.

I've not said that it CAN NOT happen. There is too much evidence that it HAS. It is M O from experience that it does NOT happen to ALL 700s.

It 'SEEMS' that sometimes it's mechanical failure, others it is OPERATOR error OR stupidity.


Jerry

Yeah mostly because nobody wants to sink a bunch of money into a POS Weatheby 😜

The problem is, that when you can not make it repeat the problem, then it is very hard to say exactly what happened. I am not saying at all that it never happens, but out of 5 times, it could be 2 or 3 different things. Could have been set wrong, dirt, operator error etc. Hard to say without being able to duplicate. miles

You're jogging my memory...and of course this is discussion, dispositive of nothing...

And as I recall he recommended changes. A reasonable person will ask..."Why would the guy who invented it, warn of potential problems if he didn't know what he was talking about?"

From a liability point of view, management, by that memo,was on actual notice, "knew or should have known" that the design was vulnerable to an AD under circumstances that were entirely "foreseeable" given the intended use of the trigger and rifle, and ignored it and failed to make changes,likely because it would cost too much (?). That sort of balancing test between cost vs benefit vs risk, has gotten more than one manufacturer in trouble over the years.

That it didn't happen 4 million other times, or that it could not be duplicated (I find that hard to believe since I've handled a couple of rifles that did it in gun stores and my experience is insignificant statistically)...is irrelevant. The issue is ....did it happen in the instant case and was the occurrence foreseeable?

That may be enough to tip the scales toward a "preponderance of the evidence"....the legal standard in civil matters. Pretty high risk for defense counsel to recommend.."Hey lets just toss it to the control of the jury and see what happens!" Any good lawyer will evaluate a case form both sides. There's big risk in going to trial and tossing your fate into the hands of third parties. At least in a settlement you somewhat control your own destiny...

Like the poster above described so eloquently, when you make 5 million plus of anything,SOME portion of them are going to be sub par. If manufacturing methods slipped and the part was no longer up to standards, you have a problem in the face of Walkers early memo.

Anyway...fun discussion. Not trying to convince anyone. We all have our own views.

They are not blind yet they cannot (will not) see...

It's like every time a military aviator crashes it's the fault of the aircraft. But it's usually human error.


Casey

That comment is not totally accurate. I my 30 plus years smithing I have never had a Model 70 come into my shop complaining of an AD. Some Savages and many Remington's. Most of the Remington's were not Human error.

22 Rimfires are a whole different story for another time.

Keep dreaming. Facts are there for all to see, over 90% of all mishaps are pilot error and those of us who actually had something to do with it, freely admit to it. But feel free to show your reference data, unlike the 700 trigger's issues which are well documented..

Bob, I think you're right.

IIRC, the solution wasn't that expensive but the bean counters decided to not go with Walker's proposed "fix"...

If that's true, it sure bit'em in the azz over the long haul...

DF

Failure to keep the weapon clean can come back to haunt any mechanism, this one had debris in the "trigger" too.

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/14/thunderbirds-crash-cause-colorado-springs/

The from the lawsuit featured in anti-gun CNBC's hit piece (that curiously so many 'fire members buy into).

Several weeks after the accident, representatives from Remington and the Barbers conducted a preliminary examination of both the condition and the performance of the rifle. Among other abnormal conditions, the inspection found the inside of the rifle to be heavily rusted, and the trigger engagement screw, safety lever, and fire control mechanism had all been either adjusted or removed and reinstalled after the rifle left the factory. As to its performance, the rifle passed all the function tests performed in this preliminary inspection, and fired only when the mechanical safety was in the "fire" position and the trigger was pulled.


https://casetext.com/case/barber-v-remington-arms-co-1

My original "not blind but cannot see" stands...

I give up........

DF: Boy I'll say !


http://remingtonfirearmsclassactionsettlement.com

Me two...

Well it happened to my wife and I was there when it happened, and she has sworn off Remingtons. I had that trigger and another R-700 replaced with Timneys, but she is still adamantly opposed to ever shooting one again. I can't blame her and now I never carry hot, period.

This is a very interesting discussion. It is not that a dirty out-of-adjustment trigger cannot fail. It will.

RATHER, it is that the Walker trigger has a floating disconnector. This is a mechanical design that lends itself to "random" failures to reset due to various factors, some of which are preventable and some of which probably are not in normal usage.

The first paragraph does not nullify the second. Some here are truly choosing to be blind.

funny that the police/Mil M700s/M24s ect... using the same walker trigger seem to work just fine.

Brilliant

Just wondering on something.... do all replacement triggers fix the AD problem? What I'm asking, if I replace the factory trigger with a Timney trigger for instance, does that fix the problem? What is different on replacement triggers? Genuinely wanting to know

No floating connector link!!!!

The connector used on Remington Walker triggers is especially sensitive to the tiniest bit of dirt, ice or rust. It sweeps back and forth on every shot and is returned by a tiny spring. If anything gets between the connector and the trigger body it will fire when the safety is released.

Replacement triggers are not nearly as sensitive.

Back in my competition days we use to glue the connector link to the trigger for a consistent pull with accuglass. We were not worried about safety because of single shot loading and the safety was removed to save weight. 10 pounds 2 ounce for a silhouette rifle. If i were to use a Walker trigger (which I won't) in a 700 I would use this mod and a matter of course.

The anti gun crowd at msnbc is laughing at all this palaver going on. People will drink kool-aid and not know that they have been duped. Gun owners fighting among themselves is what the anti-s want. If you don't like remingtons, go trade at the local gun store or be quiet. Simple inspections and cleanings of the trigger mecanisms yearly will fix these problems. Problems come about because ops turn screws and don't know what they are adjusting or try to let off on the cocking sear for that smooth trigger. Ha all remingtons can be made to fire when the bolt is closed just adjust the sear too light, but this goes for all guns. Traded for a model 70 win, years ago that would go off sometimes when bumped on the floor. Upon inspection the cocking sear was barely making contact, causing an unsafe condition. Have owned brownings, winchesters marlins, remingtons, and rugers they are all good guns. Automobiles can be made unsafe if you adjust the brakes improperly. People are their worst enemy. Gun owners need to unite not bicker all the time. For me i will never believe anything that comes from msnbc, cnn, nbc, cbs, abc. If you watch those network news casts, your mind will will become engulfed with liberalism.

Mike Walker realised early on that the sear connector was a superfluous part which was not really necessary for decent feel. Initially the connector was included in the design for two reasons. First, it allowed for minimal over travel which was considered to be an important attribute. Secondly (and, without a doubt, most important from a corporate standpoint) it allowed for the use of a cheap, easily made, trigger lever(aluminum in early trigger, sintered metal later on). In examining scores of these triggers, I have only seen one wherein the sear connector was contributory to trigger malfunction. In that particular instance the sear connector was broken. In every other instance where there was a case of the rifle firing on safety release, the cause was either with a safety which was dimensionally wrong and did not lift the sear out of engagement, or the trigger was improperly adjusted, or the trigger was full of debris.
I have seen exactly the same malfunction occur on Model 70 rifles and for similar reasons; the safety was improperly fitted and did not cam the striker off the sear. When Timney triggers fail in the same manner (and they do) it is generally due to improper adjustment, or wear of the sear or trigger, or debris in the trigger housing. GD

I have Timney in all my 7's and 700's