I believe that I have read that some Ballistic Tips are 'tougher' than others in a caliber, such as the 7mm 120s and 150s and 30cal 168s. Is this true? Also, are there others? What are they? Thanks captdavid

BTW,how would compare the 7mms 150 Ballistici Tip vs the 150 Partition @2900 fps on cow elk under 200yds? Thanks again captdavid

Don't know about elk ,but a 7mm140 out of a 7 mag will blow through both shoulders of a 200 pound pig. The heavier the bullet, the tougher it is from what I have read.

Personally I don't think the 120 BT is all that tough based on a sample of one going to pieces after hitting a rib on a 65 yard shot with a muzzle velocity of 1950 fps. Other's have different experience and think they are the cat's rear end.

I'd pick a Partition over a BT every time. Even a smaller cal Partition over a larger BT.

Mule Deer has posted here in the past that some of the bullet weights and calibers popular for elk have been made tougher. IIRC he specifically mentioned 165 and 180 gr bullets in 30 caliber. There may be others.

I have some 338 caliber BT's that are elk tough. If I remember correctly, they may have dropped them in favor of AB's for the respective weights. I have plenty of both.

The 200 .338 BT's are still available as Ballistic Silvertips: Same bullet, different look.

The really heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips I know of are the 120 7mm and 165, 168 and 180 .30. Most others are pretty stout too these days, but the above bullets all have jackets weighing around 2/3 of the total bullet weight.

All the hunting ballistic tips are tough now.

Not a partition but too one is a 150 grain ballistic tip that was started at 3250fps and connected on an elk at 60 yards. Bottom one is a 150 grain ballistic tip same load pulled from an elk at 300 yards. Middle bullet is a 160 grain accubond started at 3200 pulled from an elk at 460 yards. As you can see not much of a difference. I'd have no problem launching them at 2900fps into elk.

Perfect examples from Laker.....pulled from elk......

I'd have to go back and do some counting to get an estimate, but at the very least I have taken multiple dozens of hogs -- and definitely into three figures -- using the Ballistic Tips and the Lubalox coated Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertips.

I primarily use the 6.5/120/ 7mm 120 & 140 and the .30 cal 150s launched at moderate velocities and have yet to experience anything I'd consider unsatisfactory performance. I have tons of photos I could post, but this set from Christmas night pretty much typifies my experience with them.

here ya' go:




THIS is perfect testimony to why I love the Ballistic Tips at moderate speeds. This 120 grain 7mm broke a rib on entry, wrecked the lungs and broke through the opposite side shoulder, penetrating the 2nd layer of 0.7" thick cartilage (shield) before lodging beneath the hide and very nearly exiting. And check out the weight retention after such hard impact.

The range was 170 yards. The MV of the load is app. 2655 fps from my 7-30 Waters.

Performance could not have been any better in my opinion as the hog dropped on the spot.

And yes, those blue-tipped bullets are really 7mm Noslers. These were a batch of factory-first overruns from the Shooters Pro Shop that were sold as 2nds due to the blue tip.

In the last few years I've used the 150gr in my 7mag,150gr in my 308 and 165gr and 168gr in my 30-06.I have been very impress with them.I used them years ago when they were quite explosive and quit using them until recently.Nosler did well in redesigning them.I think they are about the best non-bonded bullet on the market and they shoot darn good too.

I read a while back that the 95 grain .243 ballistic tip is an extremely tough bullet. Apparently Gail Root, former ballistician at Nosler was a big fan of the .243 Winchester and his favorite bullet was the 95 grain ballistic tip. He was given a free hand to design the bullet as he saw fit, and he designed it tough enough to use on animals up to the size of mature bull elk.

Steve Timm could probably verify that, I believe they were good friends.

From what I have seen, there are two kinds of hunting Ballistic Tips, both tough, but one kind is tougher than the other. The majority will typically retain around 50% of their weight. The other kind, the models I already listed with VERY heavy jackets, will typically retain at least 60% of their weight.

Bobby, that's a good pig mate. By the look of that green grass he'd been chowing down for a good season or two!

My wife and her moose 280 Remington using 150gr ballistic tip using muledeer load data. This was a big cow moose we ended up with 480lbs of meat to include the bone, going to the butcher.

Wow - big moose! Congrats.

I've liked the Ballistic Tips for a long time now. They've become my preferred hunting bullet for most game & rifles.

This past season all I used was my .30-06, with 165 Ballistic Tips at about 2,900 fps mv. Bear, pronghorn, mule deer & cow elk. No problem.

Shot the mule deer in the chest as he was facing me, about 140 yards away. Bullet penetrated most of his body, dropped him instantly and was recovered well back, just under the skin:



Didn't take a good photo of it, but this one took the black bear at 325 yards, as he was quartering away from me. Recovered the jacket in the off-side hide, and the core did separate, making an exit wound. Bear died very quickly.



Of course the pronghorn didn't stop the bullet. And I never found the bullet that dropped my elk. Hit her in the shoulder, trashed the lungs and the bullet appeared to at least go into the off-side shoulder, but I never found the bullet. Ah well, she died quickly.

Guy

Am also very impressed with the 95 gr Ballistic Tip, from the 6mm Remington. Very accurate and excellent performance on mule deer & whitetail.

And the 115 gr Ballistic Tip from my .25-06 is one heck of a deer, antelope & coyote killer. Very accurate too, I've made some longish shots with that rifle, no problem.

Ya, I like the doggone things!

Guy

I think that I will try the 115 BT in my .257 AI on my next deer hunt. I ran out of 110 ABs and SPS hasn't had any for a while. I loaded up some 115 BTs that have been languishing on the reloading bench for a couple of years. They shoot as good as the ABs and I have been impressed with the terminal performance of all the other BTs that we have tried.

Guy,

That recovered 165 .30 is typical of the expanded shape of the "super-heavy" jacketed Ballistics Tips. Their jackets are much thicker along the shank than most Ballistic Tips, surrounding only a relatively thin column of lead--the reason they retain more of the shank when expanded. The standard hunting BT's tend to open wider and "shorter."

Even when the super-heavy jacket BT's lose their cores, they normally retain around 60% of their weight, because there isn't much core to lose in the first place. Which is why they keep on penetrating even without any lead, unlike standard cup-and-coreds that lose their weight.

Have mentioned this before, but probably the deepest penetration I've seen with a super-heavy jacket BT was on a bull gemsbok, about the size of a typical mature cow elk. The bullet was the original super-heavy jacket BT, the 200-grain .338, and the bull stood quartering toward me at around 150-175 yards. The bullet clipped both the near shoulder and the bottom of the spine, ending up under the skin of the rump on the opposite side, retaining 59.4% of its original weight, despite losing the core.

Guy,

Did you weigh those bullets?

I bought a bunch of those factory second blue tips (120s) a while back. Went to load some for the 7-08 the other night and compared the base to ogive length of the blue tips to the red tips I'd been using, using a comparator.

They weren't the same length, just FYI.

I've killed lots of deer with that bullet and see no need to use anything else.

I wouldn't hesitate to use it on larger game as well.

I am very aware of it. You'll see similar differences in lot-to-lot comparisons of standard Nosler bullets and from other manufacturers as well. It drives me nuts, but this batch generated the same velocity, provided the same accuracy, performed identically in test medium and gave the same POI as the red-tipped bullets from my previous loads.

I don't doubt it, as a matter of fact I sure hope so, the red tips shoot great for me. Just pointing out that if your load is seated near the lands you'll need to re-calibrate.

On elk I've used both the 150 NBT from a 270 Win, and 150 NBT from a 7-08. At 150 yards, the 270/150 whistled on through the lungs broadside on a good sized cow. At 40 yards, the 150 from the 7-08 angled through about 3' of bull elk, took out a lung, and was underneath the offside scapula.

I believe a 160 Partition would likely have penetrated the offside scapula and made it to the underside of the hide. But the result would have been no different.

This was a 7.5+ yo bull, which is a different animal than the average cow. 7mm/150 NBT:

.30 cal 150 BT taken from bobcat. MV was 2770 & range app. 170 yards. Entered head and penetrated most of the body's length, including taking out vertebrae in the neck.



.25 cal/100 grain BT also recovered from a bobcat (hard quartering angle) taken at 270 yards. MV was 2660 fps.



150 grain C-T BST taken from coyote shot head-on in center of chest with 30-30 AI at app. 2550 fps MV. Recovered near hip if memory serves...



30 cal 125 grain BT recovered from hog. Quartering shot entered near last rib and made it to opposite side shoulder. MV from the 26" 30-30 AI was right at 2800 fps, and the range around 100 yards




7mm C-T 140 grain BST taken from 190 yard shot on a hog. SHoulder-to-shoulder impact. MV right at 2600 fps.

7mm 140 grain C-T BST. Found just under the hide of a large boar taken at 210 yards. MV right at 2600 fps. Notice the layer of cartilage this boar had. Bullet penetrated both sides of it along with one shoulder.

My experience is the same as BobbyT's. I've found zero difference in red's and blues in the accuracy, POI, killing power, etc.

JG, have you used the 120's on stuff bigger than deer? If so, what's your opinion?

No sir I haven't. Just deer and hogs, and 'yotes of course.

Mudhen...think you will be happy with the 115`s. Used this bullet the past three years in my .250AI at 2900 fps.for three W/T`s. Excellent accuracy, and I have not recovered one. Entrance and exit holes show no sign of blow-up, or core seperation.

I'm not JG, but I think the hog I killed a couple nights ago with the 120 grain 7mm will count as "bigger than deer." Hogs can stress an inadequate bullet. The photo is graphic but I wanted to show the exit -- not to mention the size as it makes my rifle look like a toy.

190 yards/2651 fps MV

And a couple more KO'd by a Nosler...

The top hog was actually killed with the 7mm 140 grain lead-tipped precursor to the BT. They perform virtually identically at the speeds I launch them at.

Some of you have seen this photo:


Very large cow elk taken by my grandson this year with a 7mm-08 and 120 BT at 307 yards. Complete pass through, destroyed all the upper lobes of both lungs.

What a cool photo! Congrats to your grandson. Also, that is nice to know about the Ballistic Tips on elk.

mudhen-

that's awesome! Thanks for posting...

The NPt's are more likely to penetrate further and be more consistent.

And yes, a 7mm 150gr NBT will kill an elk. Then again, I've seen lots of elk killed with bullets I wouldn't describe as ideal elk bullets.

Casey

When bobcats stop bullets like that, not for me anyway..

Same was the last straw with sierra when a piglet about the size of a bobcat stopped a 160 gameking out of a 7mm wildcat... The shot just prior to that had penciled through does head from that gun....

I rarely find a lehigh 194 from the 300/221 at under 1000 fps MV in deer, only on lengthwise shots...

rost495-

You need to think about this with a scientific/forensics state of mind and not just take it at face-value.

A shot on a bobcat like the 3 I posted would have stopped just about any other similar bullet as well. You have to take into consideration the effect of several inches of vertebrae on the projectile. I have stopped Partitions with similar shots and on similarly-sized creatures. I also have recovered Barnes TTSX from hogs as small as 90 pounds. But that doesn't mean they don't penetrate well.

By the way, the BTs at moderate speeds behave remarkably like the Accubonds and only fall a few percentage points short in terms of penetration.

Look at the brute of a hog I killed a couple nights ago. The 120 grain BT penetrated the shoulder and exited the other side. Is that not sufficient penetration?

Seems I remember you (or someone) saying the VERY heavy NBT's tend to be in weights not covered by a corresponding NAB.

DF

Actually, what I said is that when Nosler started developing the AccuBonds, they began by bonding Ballistic Tips. Then they tested the unbonded and bonded versions to see if there was any difference in penetration. If there wasn't, they USUALLY didn't bother offering an AccuBond in that weight and diameter. Which is why there isn't a 100-grain, .25-caliber Accubond, but there is a 110 .25. It's also why they dropped the 225 .35, 250 9.3 and 260 .375 Ballistic Tips not long after they appeared--in fact, so soon some hunters never knew they existed. They all got turned into AccuBonds.

But they've eventually beefed up some Ballistic Tips more than others, mostly because hunters insisted on using them on larger game, especially elk. Which is why the 165 and 180-grain .30 caliber Ballistic Tips are among the very heavy-jacketed models, even though there are 165 and 180 AccuBonds.

There's also still a 200-grain .338 Ballistic Tip, the original truly heavy-jacketed BT, even though they also offer a 200 .338 AccuBond. Though as I mentioned earlier the Ballistic Tip is now only available as a Ballistic Silvertip.

Thanks MD for navigating the murky trail of NBTs for us.

+1

And when you think you understand it...



DF

I never will! Like many other bullet companies, they keep tweaking and introducing....

And this is generally a good thing for hunters & shooters!

Guy

I've run the .30 150 BT out of my 300 SAUM thru a pile of trophy whitetails at a variety of angles and ranges the last few years and haven't caught one yet. I don't know if they are "tough" but they sure work well for that application

Sounds good.

And, beats the heck out of early 150 NBT's. Years ago at my deer camp, they were blowing up, even out of .308's. In fact, it happened enough we banned them, got tired of chasing deer with gaping, superficial wounds.

Those were the days...

DF

I have read this thread with interest. The BT has,for many, proven a great Whitetail bullet. Me, not so much. I'm shooting a 6.5X55 that gives best accuracy with the 120 BT at about 3000fps. I have only an example of three kills. Each of which cause me to have some questions about "Tough Balistic Tips."

I shot three deer with them. No question about lethality. Three shots, three dead deer. Adult buck about 150lbs, two small does. My problem is there were no exits.

Each were shot broad side, in the pocket behind the front shoulder. Turned the internals to soup and caused major bruising on the offside internal rib cage. They each ran 70 yards or less. Where I hunt I want/need a blood trail. The undergrowth is so thick that they disappear after a couple of jumps and tracks are easily mixed with others and lost.

Fortunately each of these deer ran partially toward me, disappeared and I found them a few jumps from where they disappeared. Had they gone in the other direction without a blood trail I'm not sure I'd have found them.

I've been shooting Deer for over 60 years now and I know some weird things can happen when that bullet reaches the target and Deer are also capable of doing the unthinkable. If no pass through had happened once I'd have chalked it up to an anomaly. Twice and I'd think it to be strange, but three times, consecutively, and I'm wondering if the .264 Nosler BT 120gr at 3000fps should be something I should definitely stay away from.
Is that bullet just not up to that task?
Or, am I just missing something here?

Thanks
Jim

Jim-What were the ranges of your shots? If impact speeds were at 2750 fps or higher, it would not be uncommon to not have an exit. Did you recover any of the bullets? The elasticity of a deer's hide is pretty amazing, and I've seen numerous bullets that I'd have sworn would exit be stopped cold in its tracks.

A few years ago I watched a super-slow-motion video of a deer shot with a 165 grain Hornady SP from a .308 WCF. The hunter had 2 video cams set up, including one about 50 yards away from his location. The deer was facing directly away from this 2nd camera and nearly broadside to the hunter. At the shot, you could see the hide extend what seemed to be 8-12 inches away from the body as it "caught" the expanded projectile. If I can find the video, I'll post if. I've seen several similar to this, but this particular one caught my attention.

As to blood trails, even if a bullet exits won't guarantee one. As long as I get quick, clean kills, I am happy. And it sounds as if your excellent shot placement resulted in just that type of performance for you, too.

My range finder tells me it's about 90 to 115 yards from my tree stand to where each one were standing. Shot them last year. One the first week of season, second about mid season and third, the buck, last day, last hour. I know from my chronograph that 47 grains of H4350 is consistently producing just a tad over 3000fps about 15ft from the muzzle. THat's what I was shooting.

I have seen those under the hide captures but there has a been a notable hole through the off side ribs. Didn't happen with these. Found the bottom of a cup (bullet) when gutting the second one. Didn't keep it.

My son shoots 140's through a .284 Winchester - Dramatic results! Vastly different from what I got.

I'd really like to be wrong about my misgivings with these bullets. The 6.5X55 really likes them.

I've shot more animals including several elk with the 150 grain Nosler ballistic tip in my 7mm RM at around 3070 FPS than any other bullet. I think that they are the best deer bullet going and if you like watching deer drop on the spot they are what I recommend.

But tough isn't how I would describe them based on a bullet hitting a good sized bull elk in the ribs at 250 yards and blowing up creating a palm sized entry wound with shrapnel in the lungs doing the only damage and a 600 yard tracking job. In fairness it may have been from an earlier manufacturing run but that was enough for me to switch to Barnes TTSX as my hunting bullet in all calibers for elk. Now there are exit holes and broken bones if they are in the way at entry or exit on elk pigs and deer. The NBT is more spectacular as a killer in my experience but I'd rather know the bullet is going to stay together for some period while inside the animal.

Year? Old 100 count box?

Jim. (Rug3) I think that you are making the point I'm about to show. I use to read a lot of posts from a guy in England. He hunted shot deer commercially. Killing hundreds per year. Sometimes it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Anyway, he said the only way to drop a deer constantly was a CNS (central nervous system) shot. He said that a heart lung shot denied blood to the brain killing the deer, obviously. He said that it took about 9 seconds to do this. Therefore a deer might make a 9 second death run. Of course we all have made that behind the shoulder shot that drops them, but in my experience most do run. Those that drop, flop around for a while. Nine seconds, I haven't timed it, but I suspect. I suspect that the shot behind the shoulder, that drops them, acts something like a sucker punch. A shot through the shoulder, while not hitting the CNS, tends to shock causing the deer to fall and not get up before it bleeds to death. If you want to drop your deer, you should make a shoulder shot. I know some say that one looses to much meat but a friend figured out that he only lost a pound or so making shoulder shots. He uses a 7-08 with 140 cup&core. Captdavid

I'm in the same camp as Rug. I have shot several deer with the 95 gr Ballistic Tip out of a .243 and color me unimpressed. I've shot them both in the shoulder and behind the shoulder and they all have ran. There was no exit and no blood trail. I too hunt in thick cover and believe in 2 holes. I never had this problem with Core-Lokts.

Rug3, swap the 120 BT for the 125 Partition. Good chance it'll shoot the same and you're not likely to capture as many. I like the 120 BT in the Swede but I've yet to capture one either.

I can shoot either one interchangeably without changing any part of my load or touching my seating adjustments.

If one insists on a blood trail, maybe get within 30 yards and put a broad head through both lungs. Pretty much solves that....

I shot this cow elk through the shoulder with a 150 grain Ballistic Tip from a 308 Winchester. Range was 125 to 150 yards. The bullet smashed through the onside shoulder and the jacket was found under the offside hide. The cow made it about 30 yards and fell dead. I personally think the Ballistic Tips are an excellent hunting bullet.

Was that recovered from the rattlesnake, after shooting it in the shoulders?

It was just a matter of chance. The 95 grain BT is a stouter bullet than the 100 grain CL and always penetrates deeper & retains more weight in test medium given equal impact speeds. Plus, shots through or behind the shoulder can have runners no matter the cartridge or bullet. Only a CNS impact will guarantee a drop.

well said...and even THAT doesn't guarantee a generous blood trail. I've noticed, like you probably have as well, that the negatives views about the BTs here all involved dead deer or a very small sampling. If you hunt long enough and shoot enough animals, you'll find that there is nothing carved in stone and that no two situations are alike.

Fixt it.





P

The bullet from the mule deer weighs 106.5 grains.

The bullet from the bear, which lost its core, weighs 73 grains.

Both animals were pretty doggone dead, when the bullets were recovered.

Guy

[video:youtube]xbE8E1ez97M[/video]

David

Shot the rattlesnake with a Barnes. All that was left were the rattles.

Looks like the Barnes over-penetrated....

Betting you hit him in the neck, too.

This guy was not a fan of the .338 180 BT.

I like that picture...

I thought big game bullets stopping inside bobcats was amazing, but now snakes too?!

Nice. Looks like that one was fun to pack out.

PRM, nice bull! And it looks like the start of a rough pack-out!

Guy

Rattle snakes, evidently, can have pretty tough hides...

DF

That elk was an easy pack out! My sister and brother and law brought horses!

I did have to pack it a few hundred yards since we couldn't get horses all the way to it. There are roughly two billion dead falls up there. Att least that's how many I think I go over each day...

Wrestling with it to roll it over and debone it about killed me though!

I've had great success shooting thin skinned game with the .25 cal 115 Ballistic Tip in my 257 Weatherby. The bullet holds up surprisingly well, even when launched at 3400+ fps. Shots have ranged from 120-250 yds. The 115 BT is a quick killer.

I'll bet it was tough!

Yes, horses are GREAT!

Congrats. Guy

3400+ fps! Yikes!

Ya, I use that bullet at about 3120 fps from my .25-06, and it's done GREAT.

Regards, Guy

I use the accubond in my 257 weatherby, kills cshit out of deer and pigs.

I just shake my head at the speeds the Roy Quarter-Bore can attain. I need to try one of those sometime.

Ha, yes! It's pretty impressive. Lot's of folks bag on the 257 for the amount of powder it burns, the noise it generates, it's recoil, blah, blah, blah. All of which mean jack chit to me. I knew what the 257 was all about before getting into it. For the performance, killing power and fun it generates, it's worth it to me. Just point and shoot out to 400 yards and watch things die. Pretty impressive killer.

Granddaughter has liked 20 or so pigs and deer with the 95gr 6mm ballistic tip. It will punch through both shoulders. Great bullet.