Just curious about the recoil. I bet it is pretty stout.. Any personal experiences?

As much or as little as you want it to. Handloading helps but th recoil from 500gr loads is there. To put it in perspective, though, I would rather shoot a CZ 550 458 Win Mag with 500gr loads than a Mossberg 835 with 3.5" magnums. Stock design, rifle weight and the recoil pad make a big difference.

My #1H is stout with 500 gr factory loads. But a good pad and sufficient rifle weight goes a long way to mitigating recoil.

BigUgly, do you use your No 1H in your neck of the woods?? Reason being, heavy hunting coats tend to help absorb recoil. Much better than the shirt you wore on your African expedtion.

I have a Ruger 458 Lott with a limbsaver and it isn't too bad shooting the 500 grain A-frames. I'd rather shoot it than my Rem 700 CDL in 300 RUM. It just seems to me that the big bores like the 458 Lott and 416 Rigby have a good size 'shove' but the fast magnums like the 300 RUM seem to pop quite a bit more. A sharper recoil that is not very pleasant.

stock fit aside, recoil velocity makes a big difference IMO.

a 458 WM or a 470 NE is much more pleasant to me than a 416 Rigby or a 458 Lott over 6-10 rounds.


ymmv

SotexasH,
I had an 8.5 lb Model 70 in 458 Magnum that I thought kicked less than my Model 37 Ithaca pump with slugs.
Neither of these would be my first chice for a long bench rest session.
Once a customer came into the gunshop and pulled back his shirt just enough to show us a huge bruise on his shoulder.
He was getting ready for an elephant hunt and the gun fired before he had it up tight to his shoulder. It looked painful.
If you shoot them standing up, it is very similar to a 12 gauge magnum.

I think the hardest kicking rifle I ever shot has been a 300 weatherby magnum. Had to have it in my early 20's just because..In Minnesota its mostly woods hunting so not many long shots. Kept it a couple of years.. Borrowed it out and then traded for something else.. I didn't like my 7mm rem mag in a 6 pound savage gun either but really wasn't to stiff.

The .458 will recoil harder as pressure and velocity increases which, as a statement is too simplistic to generate value, as all cartridges will do same.

What I need to convey is that 100fps can have impact on recoil perception with the .458 much more, than most other cartridges.

I have owned and used a number of Model 70's in .458, tested several others with the largest and heaviest being the BRNO/CZ's which come is a range oif stock designs from classic to monte-carlo to Bavarian.

The Bavarian CZ looks terrible to my eye, but recoils the least and generates the highest velocities because of the longer barrel. Another comment here is necessary as I find that the longer barrel length in this caliber has greater influence per inch that it should on paper.

Currently, I own both a .460 Weatherby and a Model 70 in .458. I never considered punching the model 70 out to a LOTT chambering as I never had a problem achieving full factory specs from the basic case length in any rifle I ever used. Additionally, this light rifle does not need more recoil which is no fun no matter how much experience you have.

The .458 can be handloaded to your own recoil tollerence. That is the good news. You need to stop at that level to encourage you to shoot it more often as a .458 that is fired once a year is useless to you.

JW

WHAT HE SAID!

It doesn't hurt if you do this:

1. First, become proficient with some lesser caliber. It does not matter which one.

2. Mount the .458 scope as far forward as you can without vignetting, and use one with good eye relief. A Leupold 1.5--5 works fine.

3. When sighting in from the bench, sit reasonably upright and grasp the rifle hard with both hands. Use shoulder padding. I wear a heavy shooting coat (Creedmore) plus a small towel folded inside where the shoulder is. No need to shoot very much off the bench.

4. All other practice should be from field positions, mostly offhand. Again, grasp tightly with both hands, pull the rifle tightly into your shoulder, and clamp down with your cheek (this assumes the stock is decent and straight. I use a Model 70 with the scope mounts as low as possible.) By the way, to see if your rifle "fits," stare at an object in your basement, close your eyes, and bring the rifle to firing position. You should be looking through the scope at the object. Most people mount scopes too high and use csopes which are too large.

5. Don't shoot more than about 20 full power loads at the range. By that I mean 500 grain bullets at 2200 or 450 grain bullets at 2250. Contrary to what you may have read, it is not difficult to get these velocities from a 23" or 24" barrel.

6. If you want to practice a lot, load up some 350 grain Hornadys at 2200 fps or so. Don't worry about the zero or trajectory differences. Shoot 'em at 50 feet. Load the rifle to maximum capacity (4 shots in my case) and fire all of them, from offhand, as fast as you resonably can.

7. Dry fire a lot, in your basement. Take the rifle in hand, pick out some object, bring the rifle up and "fire" at it.

8. Don't waste time and money finding the best powder. It's AA2230.

9. Don't trust any one loading manual. Go buy the one which has only the .458 Magnum, and includes copies of the .458 pages from 8 or 9 manuals. You will notice that there is a big difference in what different makers claim is the maximum load for 500 grain bullets. Don't trust the oddball high ones. I found one grain under the Hornady maximum downright dangerous, at least in my rifle. I've found Hornady a lot more accurate for more common calibers. CHRONOGRAPH your loads!

By the way, .458s can be very accurate. On one occasion mine shot a 1" 3-shot group at 100 yards with 450 grain North Fork solids, and a little wider with 450 grain TSXs or Barnes 450 or 500 grain solids. Will it do that all day? You don't shoot such a rifle from the bench all day. Trying to find "the most accurate load" is pointless.

Nope, I didn't even bring the 458 up when I moved, though I visit it when I go on vacation. I've only ever shot it in t-shirts and the like, maybe even a light jacket. Shooting it while wearing a parka would be somewhat gentler, but I'd have to shorten the stock to make up for the extra layers of clothes.

The key is to not spend to much time shooting it off the bench. Shooting off sticks is another great way to mitigate recoil. When I was working up loads for my 416 Rigby I did some off the bench (often wearing no kidding winter gear), and then went south and shot off a hay bale tipped on end.

The bale was WAY better than the bench.

The first one I ever fired, with factory loads, was a Whitworth Express which weighted about 7 pounds. It wasn't pleasant.

Another one, an older Browning, at about 10 1/2 pounds wasn't bad at all. Maybe a little more than a normal weight .300 Wby.

A .460 Wby? You have to experience it to believe it.

I have no problem with the 458 Win. recoil, none at all..I do have a little problem with anything larger in that I have to mentally prepare myself to shoot them, and I don't like that so I shoot all my dangerous game with the .40 calibers.

Indy, that was an EXCELLENT post.. Best I 've read re: the .458WM in years..

Thanks for the powder clue, btw.. I haven't loaded any for my .458 yet and was wondering where to start, powder-wise..

Best to you..

I subscribe wholeheartedly to everything Indy has written except for one point: My CZ 550 in 458 Win has a British style stock--not American or Bavarian--and I much prefer it to either of those, plus my ring mounts are medium high. The balance of the rifle, it's weight and fit are key to managing "felt" recoil. With it's 25" tube it's easy to pass 2200 fps with 500-grainers. Even 2300 fps is attainable. Mine will be primarily used in North America (I've written a manual on this), so I'll use only a couple of loads for moose and bear: a 350-grain TSX at 2750 fps (shoots less than MOA) and a 465-grain hardcast at 2260 fps.I agree; offhand it's about the same as a stiff magnum load in a 12-guage.

I think that 350gn TSX is a very "under considered" bullet for the .458. Barnes sent me some to play with and I worked out a load of 75gn using H 4198 that punches them through the one hole. Quite astounding accuracy though not unusual with the .458.

My next step is to load a few more and determine coinsistency in that accuracy as anyone can shoot a good group now and then. My standard loads have to shoot well with consistency and reliability, all the time. I need to trust a .458 load.

I like the idea of the 350gn as I used to 400gn X for my light loads in this caliber for manay years and the 350gn version shoots just as flat(er) and is a little easier to shoot for all round use, allow the move up to the 450gn TSX for anything dangerous using the same rifle.

I always perferred the .458 over the .375 as a 1 rifle carry.



JW

JW

I agree with everything you've said. I've not shot a one-hole group with mine yet, but my load with RL-7 is very, very consistent. When I began to shoot that load, I thought maybe it was a fluke, but not so. It turned out to be sub-MOA every time I shot it. I'll be going to the range tomorrow to shoot a few more at 300 yards as I intend to carry that rifle for moose hunting this October if gas prices permit--way up in N. Ontario (1600kms).

And, may I thank you for you excellent piece in an Aussie mag (forget name)on the BRNO 458 (same basic gun). I learned something that was not in the literature that came with my CZ550: how to empty the chamber of a live round without taking off the safety! My booklet said nothing about it! And the dealer didn't either! I don't like to open the bolt to extract a cartridge if I have to disengage the safety first.

I love my CZ. It has beautiful wood and I adjusted the trigger so the "set" feature is de-activated, and it breaks cleanly at 2.7 lbs. And thanks for your other comments elsewhere in these treads that make uncommon sense.

CZ

I did that CZ550 .458 review for "Australian Shooter" magazine. I did not know it was distributed overseas so I appreciate your feedback.

John

\

Amen.....

My shoulder didn't mind all that much. My forehead was less impressed ... except I guess it was more impressed ... dented, even. By the scope. The rifle was a push-feed M70. Scope a Leupold 1-4X. I had a lot of fun shooting it with cast bullets. The very first 510 grain WW soft point got my undivided attention ... and maybe a teeny amount of blood.

A lot of the difference between kicks and doesn't kicks (??) is the stock fit and shooter's build. I, unfortunately, am built such that I crawl stocks badly. That, in turn, means optics meet my forehead badly. For anything bigger than about .375 H&H, I want irons, not glass. Even with a .375, I have to select my optics carefully and be very deliberate in my shooting technique or I'm going to get whacked, never been seriously cut, but I've been scuffed enough to let the red stuff seep out quite a few times.

I'd agree with what a lot of people said, so far as the shoulder taking a beating, the .458 was not as bad as my ol' mossburg 12 guage shooting a 3" slug nor even 3" 00 buck, maybe not as bad as some of the factory 1-7/8" shot loads I used to shoot. For me, if I needed a .458, I'd look real hard at a receiver sight or possibly a scout scope.

Each person is different ... YMMV.

Tom

The 50 year old .460 Weatherby is whatever you want it to be as it can be loaded to suit your own recoil tollerance. If you load it to top end .458 Winchester velocities, it doesn't even lift off the sand bags at the bench, because the rifle weight and stock length of pull is where it always should have been with a .45 caliber magnum.

Besides, the .460 is one of the most accurate cartridges ever designed as the new Barnes Manual will attest.

JW

Not to be too glib about it, but if you approach the .458 Win with trepidation, that's the wrong approach.

JW,

"Australian Shooter", eh... Actually, I was doing a net search on "The 458 Winchester Magnum" and it brought me to a site with your article. I still have that website marked as a "favorite".

I wrote for Australian Shooter for nearly 20 years and the magazine was called Australian Shooters Journal for the first 15 years or so. It is published by Sporting Shooters Assoc of Australia, which is the largest organization there and affiliated with the NRA here in the US.



JW

I just recently picked up a model 70 been rechambered to 458 lott. its the newer classic. anyway, I was a little worried about recoil, but I have fired a few factory 458 WM rounds (500 grn I believe), and it was nowhere near as intimidating as I had thought. the muzzle did rise a bit, but it was not too bad. Havnet worked up the courage to try a Lott round though.

It may be that I am in a shotgun only area for deer and shoot some pretty hard hitting 12 ga loads, so I might be used to them. They can be very brisk.

JW:

Thanks for the background info.


hikerbum: do you handload? If you do then, of course, you can create loads that are similar to you 12-gauge, and work up from there.

OH, c'mon... find some SEEDS! Load that bad boy to THE MAX... REAL men start from there and work UP!!




(JUST kidding re: starting loads.. DO not start at max)...

I recently bought a Remington Model 798 in 458 Win., and it is one nice rifle...Nicer than I thought it would be...Haven't shot it yet, still have to get some ammo.........Ken

JW,
You are SADLY missed! Your 'Big Three' article on the 378, 416 and 460Wbys was a standalone classic for a kid with a hankering for heavy pills and large calibres! Soon after I bought my second CF rifle ... a 458WinMag, then a 10.75x68, 45/70 a couple of 375H&H's and now with a 458AccRel and 470Capstick in the safe and a 500AccRel in the planning ... I blame you partially for my sore shoulder and big grins!
Cheers...
Con

I've found the above to be very true of the 458Lott as well. Working up loads the rifle 'all of a sudden', literally at 82gr of powder, really came alive off the bench! In a 10.5lb CZ this was noticeably more disconcerting than a 9lb Zastava 458WinMag and its 500gr Woodleigh at 2060fps. My 470Capstick does the same thing, really coming back hard as top-end loads are approached. Oddly ... a 458AccRel (shortened/opened 300RUM) is not as painful even with a 500gr at 2230fps and that rifle is still wearing its factory Ruger pad and a barrel that brings weight to 10.5lb.

Best thing I ever did with my 458WinMag was to load 350gr Hornadys to 2400fps and go hunting. Later and when used to the rifle, I started trying the 510gr loads. By that time it was noticeably more recoil, but not uncomfortably so. After you've mastered the 458WinMag etc ... the "horribly kicking" 8mmRemMags etc start to feel like pop guns.
Cheers...
Con

Thanks for the support Con.
I may do something for them again as I prefer to keep options open for the future. During my tennure there, I was basically setting my own goals and topics with little in the way of obstacles. Politics became a problem when I was offered writing roles with competitor magazines and the ultimate crunch came when they wanted me to hand over copyright to my work without future compensation.

I am replaceable as I remind myself everytime I drive past a cemetary and look at the rows of indespensible men. I tried to give something back. I hope I did.

Kind Regards,

John

John,
The support was earnt in my opinion. The old ASJ had a line-up of regular, column and contribution authors second to none. It's a sad magazine in my opinion now. Check out Guns & Game for contributions ... I think they're the No1 Australian magazine as far as the public is concerned and their support of articles on wildcats etc... seems second to none.
Cheers...
Con

"If you load it to top end .458 Winchester velocities, it doesn't even lift off the sand bags at the bench, because the rifle weight and stock length of pull is where it always should have been with a .45 caliber magnum."

I don't own either one, but I have fired some of them, and also a .375 H & H. If I wanted .458 ballistics, I would get a .458 Win.

Why go to the trouble and expense of a .460 Weatherby and run it at half throttle?

This might come off as being sarcastic, but it isn't meant to be. A better way to put it would be why get a .460 if you do not need that amount of energy?

The 458 win mag struggles to achieve original balistics, there are only a few powders that will do so, and the case simply isn't large enough to fit enough powder with a 500 gr bullet, especially if you want to use a copper bullet.

I don't know anyone that will get a car or truck that has to be run wot just to get going as it has just enough power for the task at hand. Most folks choose vehicles that have a reserve of power.

The 460W and other larger cases 45's can easily push any 500 gr bullet you want 2100 fps, and with lower pressures than the 458 win mag.

1234567,
Bigger case can always be loaded up, or run equivalent to a smaller case to save wear and tear. It sounds counter-productive but a 460Wby can be run like an insanely hot-loaded Lott and do it with ease. I've just started playing with a 458AccRel and mild loads achieve 2230fps with a 500gr and 2400fps with 400gr ... cases will last forever at these load levels. Consider the 416Rigby, another huge case that runs its 400gr at 30/30 pressure levels when there's close to another 300fps to be found if you go looking.
Cheers...
Con

I understand what you are saying. You can do that with any cartridge. Taking a different example, if you want a .30-30, why buy a .30-06 or .300 Mag. and load it down?

Comparing it to cars with a reserve of power is not the same thing.

If you are in a situation where you need the foot pounds of energy of a .460, then you are going to need it quickly and you are going to need all of it.

A person buys a .460 for the foot pounds it produces. Why change it into a cartridge with an energy level that is readily available in a lighter, cheaper, and less recoiling cartridge.

People try to get .458 mag ballistics from a .45-70, then load a .460 down to .45-70 and .458 levels. I guess I have always thought that you should use it for it's intended purpose and not try to make something else out of it.

A .460 gives a 500 grain bullet about 2600 FPS. A .458 Lott will give the same bullet about 2200-2300 FPS. If I thought I needed 2600 FPS with a 500 grain bullet, then, certainly, I would get a .460. If 2200-2300 FPS was adequate for my needs, I would go with a .458 Lott. If I thought 1900 to 2000 FPS would do, then my choice would be a .458 Win. If 1900 to 2000 was all I needed, I wouldn't buy a .460 and load it down.

I have a .300 RUM. If I wanted .30-06 ballistics, I would have got a .30-06.

Shooting a .460 with pip squeak loads is like using a Corvette to drive back and forth to your mail box.

I do know that the reason Weatherby started chambering their rifles in .458 Lott was to get a .45 caliber cartridge that would give 2200 to 2300 FPS. That was because there was a demand for a .45 cal 500 grain bullet at this velocity and energy level and the .460 is a very heavy rifle and the recoil is too much for most people. I guess Weatherby could have offered reduced loads for their .460, but they choose to use a cartridge that operates at it's full potential. Just as the .460 was designed to operate at it's full potential.

1to7,
Yep, understand where your coming from as well. Some people however are attracted to the use of reduced loads. I probably shoot a 20:1 ratio of reduced to fullpower loads in my 358Win as it makes for cheaper practice with pistol projectiles, likewise when I had a 375H&H I shot more reduced loads (shot to same point of impact) than fullpower loads. Weatherby's decision not to offer a reduced 460Wby loading may be a marketing issue as you dont mess with the biggest baddest 45cal! I've been surprised that Weatherby has never considered a 500Weatherby as it can be done reasonably easy on the MkV using the 460Wby brass and would produce a remarkably useful rifle ... but it wont be the biggest 50cal on the block so I dont think the desire is there. Whilst you shoot fullpower loads in the 300RUM, even Remington has seen a niche for power level ammunition. It's never been a popular strategy though as Norma used to run a 170gr 30/30 projectile at reduced velocity in the 30/06 but dropped the load after a few years.
Cheers...
Con

1234567,
Your questioning is reasonable and will be logical to many. There are a very few men on this earth than can teach me anything about a .460 Weatherby. I have hundreds of kills with it up to bison @ over a ton on the hoof and I continue to learn.

FYI, these are my persoanl loads, many of which will not be in any reloading manuals;

There is I am sure, something for every recoil tollerance. When the new Barnes manual is available, you will see that I wrote the paragraphs for the .460, and elswhere.

.460 Weatherby Magnum Page 1.

Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

300gn Hornady HP 100gn IMR 3031 2738 4995
106gn IMR 3031 2888 5557 Great on Pigs

350gn Speer FP 90gn AR 2206 2380 4403
100gn AR 2206 2629 5373
100gn AR 2208 2515 4917
105gn AR 2208 2685 5604
100gn IMR 4064 2525 4956
105gn IMR 4064 2685 5604
108.5gn IMR 4064 2730 5794
112gn IMR 4064 2860 6359 Mild

400gn Speer FP 40gn Blue Dot 1720 2628 Fed 215 Primer
57gn 2400 2080 3844 Fed 215 Primer
58gn 2400 2120 3993 Fed 215 Primer
100gn IMR 4064 2500 5553
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719

400gn Barnes X 110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719 Easy shooting big game load
110gn VARGET 2750 6719 6 feet penetration on big game.
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472
116gn AR 2208 2860 7267

400gn Woodleigh 110gn VARGET 2737 6655
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472

450gn Barnes TSX 110gn IMR 4350 2408 5795
115gn IMR 4350 2527 6382
117gn IMR 4350 2575 6627
119gn IMR 4350 2627 6897 Compressed load

500gn Barnes TSX 110gn IMR 4350 2433 6574
112gn IMR 4350 2483 6847 .456" Great load
115gn IMR 4350 2543 7182 Very heavily compressed

500gn Hornady RN 115gn IMR 4350 2500 6941 Maximum velocity for this bullet
120gn IMR 4350 2600 7507
122gn IMR 4350 2642 7752
104gn Rel 15 2398
108.5gn Rel 15 2512 7008
85gn IMR 4064 2028 4567
87gn IMR 4064 2100 4897
104gn AR 2208 2400 6397
115gn WIN 760 2450 6666 Very accurate .5 MOA for 3 shots
94gn AR 2206 2300 5875
115gn AR 2209 2500 6941 .5 MOA
Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

Hornady RN (Cont) 115gn Rel 19 2500 6941
115gn IMR 4831 2500 6941
75gn AR 2207 2000 4442

500gn Swift 122gn IMR 4350 2660 7858
A - Frame 123gn IMR 4350 2678 7964

550gn Woodleigh 110gn IMR 4350 2356 6769
115gn IMR 4350 2382 6931
117gn IMR 4350 2471 7459 Warm Load
117gn WIN 760 2383 6939
120gn WIN 760 2393
122gn WIN 760 2460 Warm Load
117gn AR 2209 2439
119gn AR 2209 2457
119gn IMR 4831 2464
121gn IMR 4831 2509 7690
121gn AR 2213 2422
123gn AR 2213 2459
115gn WMR 2138
118gn WMR 2162
120gn WMR 2179
122gn WMR 2243 6146

600gn Barnes RN 120gn AR 2213 2346
122gn AR 2213 2389
118gn IMR 4831 2392
120gn IMR 4831 2453 8019 Warm Load
114gn IMR 4350 2418
116gn IMR 4350 2460 8064

JW

AGW,
Though I'll never own a 460Wby ... seeing an article specifically devoted to it would be something I'd love to see!
Cheers...
Con

I wanted to do one for the 50th anniversary this year but did not get the opportunity to publish it. I have never seen an article written on the .460 Weatherby that contained comprehensive loading data or any real hands on experience.

The accuracy is beyond what most will experience regardless of chambering, and trajectory is near identical to the .30/06 with power levels that slam the biggest of game to the ground. It is the king of big game cartridge.

JW

Getting back to the original topic;

I see the .458 differently to most hunters. For me, I see it as a wonderful big game cartridge in a manouverable rifle for timber or brush hunting, or tight situations where speed and reaction is paramount.

For me, this means the .458 is best in a Model 70 Winchester with 22" barrel. I have used .458's in 22", 24" and 25" barrels but find my interst is catered to with the shorter versions, especially in the model 70 action.

If I want a 10 pound plus rifle with a longer barrel, I have the .460. My .458 is a hand picked rifle topped off with 2-7 Leupold that shoots better than most .243's. As a pair, I am ready for any game in any terrain, at any range I would shoot such game. They make a great pair and can cover each other in a pinch with an ammo change.

The .458 is also a great deer cartridge in heavy timber which covers both elk and sambar.

JW

AGW,
Exactly my thoughts! The 458WinMag can be built like a sporter which makes it a very handy rifle. The likes of the CZ550's are just too heavy to be portable. My Zastava 458WinMag weighed right on 4kg loaded and scoped ... it was fantastic with a 350gr Hornady RN at 2460fps and a 480gr Woodleigh at 2060fps was also quite manageable. Truth be told, a Marlin 1895SS in 45/70 loaded to the hilt was an intolerable beast of a rifle compared to the 458WM and the CZ550 458Lott. When built as a sporter, the 458WinMag is surprisingly versatile. That's something I've also felt true regarding the 375H&H ... CZ's make for damn heavy 375's, whilst the Rem Safari Classic was a beautiful sporter that never punished you when being carried or shooting it.
Cheers..
Con

Although I've never fired a .458 I can only imagine. Here is a link to a good page about recoil. http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

If you look at the table from the link you can get an idea about the .458 from other calibers you have fired. I have a Rem 7mm mag and a Browning 300 Ultra Mag (not a short mag). According to the table, the 7mm has 19.2 lbs of recoil energy which is easily manageable. The 300UM has 32.8 lbs of recoil energy whereas the .458 has 62.3. My shoulder can tell you from personal experience that the 300UM kills at both ends so I can only cringe at the thought of a .458


It's just my opinion but the .458 falls into the category of "Holy Crap That Hurt". It's one of those guns where you wonder how close you can get it by just bore sighting

Bore sighting usually does not work with a .458.

When you sight one in at 100 yards and then bore sight, the bore is usually low and left of the aim poimt.

Only shooting sights a rifle. Bore sighting is only a starting point.

JW

I�ve fired my friends 458 and it�s a good woman�s gun. Shoots like a rainbow. It�s probably the cheapest big gun on the market.

That's trash talk! Are you trying to be nasty or something? A 350 gr TSX at 2750 fps from my (not cheap) CZ550 in 458 Win shoots as flat as a 30-06 to 400 yds, is nearly twice as heavy as a 180gr, has about twice the striking energy with more than twice its cross-sectional area!

It's impossible to take you seriously bud... You need a 458 Win 101 seminar!

Try buying a 460 bee or a 416. Please post that data because my charts don�t show the 350. I find that very hard to believe. What is your powder charge in grains and was it verified by chrono or is it just spec. The Factory 458win was the one I was refering too. I wasn�t speaking of custom jobs.

378,
I never tried the 350's or 400's in the CZ550 but when I first reviewed this rifle I got the following results;

300gn Barnes X = 2805fps
500gn Win Fac = 2025fps
550gn Woodleigh = 2111fps
600gn Barnes RN = 1978gps

These results were up to 100-150fps faster than my 22" barrelled Model 70, using the same loads.

JW

I didn't take pics of my CHRONY's readings, as I often do because I publish a manual on the 458 Win. Last time out with the 350 TSX was June 18/08 at 12 noon and temp +15 Celsius (+60F). MVs were: 2713; 2702 and 2701. Avg corrected to muzzle=2715fps. That was with Win brass, 81grs RL-7, WLRM primers and the 350 TSX at 3.44"COL. I've recently switched to Win brass (which has more capacity that Rem)because it was difficult to find ANY 458 brass in Canada. I finally found some in Saskatchewan and they were Winchester. Previously, I'd been using Remington and they were getting close to the end--if you know what I mean. They hold a couple of grs less than Win. With Rem brass I was using 80 grs of RL-7 and getting MOA, or better, and about 2746 fps (avg).

My rifle is a stock CZ 550 with a long action (as long as the Lott)and the loads I use are similar to the Lott (a few grains less). It's barrel is 25". The above is NOT a max load, but pleasant to shoot and consistently accurate. I crimp in the bottom groove of the TSX bullet.

Yesterday, I fired some 500gr Hornadys over 80grs of H4895 at an avg corr. MV of 2282 fps. THAT get's your undivided attention!

Also, just in case someone might be interested... My CZ 550 is the "standard" grade... not the most expensive. But! It has, nonetheless, beautiful wood, the British style stock... not the Bavarian or the American, which is to my liking. It carries a fixed 4X Burris Short Mag in Warne QD mounts. It also has a lite dark green nylon sling attached. Total package weighs 10.2 lbs sans ammo. It's deep drop-box magazine will easily swallow-up 6 rounds! I carry with 4 in Ontario hunting. Does it go hunting? Absolutely! Though I've yet to take a critter with it as I've owned it less than a year. I expect it will first be bloodied by a black bear and those 350 TSXs come September. The "set" trigger has been adjusted so there is no more "set". It now has a clean break at 2.7lbs. I'd add a pic but don't yet know how that works on this forum.

CZ550,

Isn't it awfully hard to get 80 grains of H4895 in the case with a 500 grain bullet? It must be pretty compressed. Also, it's over maximum.

You might be surprised.

My .458 is no more unpleasant to shoot than my .300 Weatherby. Although it has more recoil energy, this is spread over about 50% more time. You don't want to shoot the .458 a lot off the bench, though, and always use a heavy pad off the bench. It's not a bench rest rifle.

458 is a powerful gun- no doubt. Next time your in the forest, find yourself a tree about 15 inch diameter. Take your 458 and shoot that tree. I quarantee your bullet won�t go through and a 300 grain over 116 grains of 7828 IMR will in the 378 weatherby . I know this because I�ve tryed it. I won a bottle of whiskey over that bet. I still have a hard time believing a fat bullet like that will follow the ballistic curve of a 30-06 to 400 yards. I don�t have tables here but I�m almost sure that�s not possible. I�d have a hard time doing that with my 378 and it�s lobing 300 grain bullets at 3000 ft/sec at muzzle with bullets having better BC than the 458.

I've posted details elsewhere ("pooped out Lott" thread), but mine is a CZ550 which has the same action and magazine as the Lott version in the same rifle. That means I can seat longer bullets, like the 500 Hornady and TSXs to a COL that about matches the Lott. BUT! The advantage goes to my rifle as the long bullets are close to the lands with minimal freebore. That means internally my barrel is actually longer than the Lott in the CZ550, and quite a bit longer than the Lott in the Ruger model. The "short" freebore in my rifle assures better accuracy and higher velocities--equal to the Lott with a 25" barrel with about 5 grs less powder! And MORE than the Lott in 24" factory tubes. So! Think of my rifle (handloaded) as the most efficient 458 Lott going!

There's a "lot" (pun intended)of prejudice on these treads re: the 458 Win, and ignorance of it's potential too. Some just repeating old worn-out, decrepit stories from the past and misguided. Even from a 24" tube in a "standard" M70, with todays powders, 2200 to 2300 fps from a 500-grain Hornady is possible. I've never yet explored the full potential of mine, but I know that better than 2300 fps from the 500 Hornady is well within its grasp! 80grs of H4895 isn't maximum in MY rifle, nor is 80 grs of H335. I've not yet tried AA2230--but I will. So far, it's not been available in my area (Ontario).

My COL with the 500 Hornady is 3.53" and the 450-gr Barnes X is 3.59" and the 350 TSX is 3.44". 80 grs of H4895 is only slightly compressed and NO sign of excess pressure in any way. 80 grs of H335 (the powder I actually use in my "hunting" load for the 500 Hornady is 78grs at 2202 fps--well below max)at 3.53" COL is actually a bit "loose" being a ball powder. 83 grs is "max". I also use a LEE crimp die and powder slightly compressed so there's no bullet movement in the magazine due to the heavy recoil. The 350 TSX is crimped in the bottom groove. Hope this explains things a bit--though it is long-winded. Understand, I write on these matters and publish what I write, so I can't be caviler.

Right or wrong I went with Terry Wieland's concept in DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES of having a Lott built with the idea of getting about 2250 fps with a 500-gr bullet out of a 22" barrel for an anticipated buff hunt. This at least equals most all the old British Nitro cartridges and exceeds the 458 Win. at a lower pressure.

I've achieved this velocity with ease and good accuracy with the 450-gr Barnes TSX and H4895 in my 9.75 lb rifle. I've not tried other premiums to this point.

To answer your question with some kind of equivalent experience, I'd say (and very subjectively) it's about like a 3.5" 12 ga. in a 7.5 or 8 lb shotgun all else being equal-like stock design, etc.-which of course it isn't. It's certainly very healthy but I must say about fifteen years of shooting a 340 Wby which seems to recoil much faster prepared me quite well.

Gdv

CZ550,

That explains it. I shoot a Winchester M70 and load all my rounds to 3.44" COL. It's easy to get 2200 fps with a Barnes 500 grain solid without any noticeable signs of pressure. I prefer the North Fork 450 grain solids but have to hoard them since North Fork went out of business. I load them to 2250 fps. For expanding bullets I use the 450 grain TSX. Basically I don't see any reason to shoot a Lott. Of course, it's easy to be an expert when I've never shot any dangerous game (yet).

AA2230 is hard to get anywhere. With the same weight of powder and bullet I get about 25 fps more than with H4895 and with a little less compression. I don't think compression is necessarily bad. I used to load 61 grains of surplus 4831 in a 30-06 for long range targets at Camp Perry. That's a really compressed load.

What do you publish on the .458 and where is it available?

It depends entirely on what bullets we're talking about in the 378, the 30-06 and the 458. As well as the velocities. I've shot a 405gr Remington from my Marlin 45-70 at 2085 fps thru a 16-inch tree "in the forest" and it plowed a 6 foot furrow at 15 yds the other side of the tree and was lost somewhere in the turf! So, it depends also on what tree we're talking about!

If it's rock maple, I'd like to see if your 300 from your 378 would go thru 15 inches of that! That's why it's called "rock" maple!

If were talking solids from both, yours at 3000 fps into a spruce, fir or aspen; hey! There's no doubt it would penetrate 2 feet or more! So would the 458 at 2200 to 2300. Then, it would also depend on what time of year... whether the saps running or frozen!

Re: the trajectory of the 30-06 versus the 458, 350 TSX , both at 2750 fps: a 180 Partition from the 30-06, zeored at 200 would be -8" at 300yds and -23" at 400 yds. The 350 TSX would be -9.3" at 300yds and -28" at 400 yds. Technically, you are correct. But, as I was intending, shooting moose at those ranges under field conditions, the one is as good as the other. My post was in response to the false notion that the 458 Win has a "rainbow trajectory". If that accusation were correct then so does the 30-06! That was my point.

Also, re: penetration-- a .458" solid bullet has to displace 50% more "wood" (material)than the .375" solid does if penetration is the same. Do the math! The .458" has a cross-sectional area of .165 sq-in and the .375" has a cross-sectional area of .110 sq-in. That too is a fact and has to be calculated into any evaluation.
In terms of Kinetic Energy, they are close with a slight edge going to the 378 Wby. But in terms of momentum, it shifts substantially to the 458 (in handloads)by 28% (2300 fps for the 500gr versus 3000 fps for the 300gr--do the math)!

I found with old factory loads (about 1930fps) and at about 10.25 lbs it was fun to shoot and painless while standing.
Bench-rest, still no pain, but a fair shock to my head and upper body. Not so funny.

At about 9 lbs and near max reloads, there was some "shock" to my brain pan, and my middle finger keeps getting wacked by the rear trigger guard. I've probably got a lighter hold of the stock now I'm more used to it. I don't benchrest it anymore, as I can do well enough with sticks and an elbow support.

Although I have fired .378 & .460 Wby. 30 years ago, the .458 is now my limit thanks.

I'm trying to remember who A.GunWriter is, I must have read him, but probably before I got interested in big-bores. I'll go thru some old issues looking for JW.

Here is my review of the CZ 550 when first released. Enjoy.


Reviewing the CZ 550 in .458 - by John Woods

Rifle reviews are always interesting because some rifles turn in surprising results and make the review both easy and pleasurable. The new BRNO model 550 is one of the better rifles I have reviewed because it shows many positive improvements over previous models, demonstrating the company�s commitment to providing a quality product that is functional, accurate and that represents value for money.

The obvious difference on opening the box was the high-quality figured walnut stock of full-sized proportions, which is apt for a rifle chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum. The length of pull measured 36cm, which is longer than standard and better suited to rifles with high levels of recoil, as the scope positioning offers greater eye relief.

Stock design was European in styling with cheekpiece, ventilated black rubber recoil pad and sling studs with QD swivels fitted as standard. The Schnabel fore-end design is in keeping with the European design and is quite popular in this country. Only one steel cross bolt is visibly positioned at the rear of the action under the tang.

The action is magnum length and still qualifies as a square bridge Mauser design with a noticeably improved finishing procedure over earlier 660 models so chambered in .458 Magnum. This model is exceptionally well finished and has a nicely polished blued action.

Brno has again stayed with the dovetail bases integral with the action design and is quite a sturdy system, as long as the mounts that are mass produced by some other manufacturer are kept to a reasonable tolerance, allowing for good positioning and fit with the bridge.

Because the same action is used for rifles chambered for the longer .375 H&H round, these rifles are very popular with riflemen who like to re-chamber their .458s to accommodate a longer cartridge case such as the Ackley version or .458 Lott. This action will also satisfy that market, although our main concern here is to evaluate the standard .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge for which this sample was chambered.

The trigger will please many users, as it is fully adjustable and is also of the European �Set� configuration, which means simply that you can use it with standard weight of pull as I did during my tests or, after cocking the rifle and pushing the trigger forward, the trigger is �set� so that it breaks very lightly in a �hair trigger� format. This is very handy when range shooting or attempting to take longer range or accurate shot placement in the field because the trigger breaks and the rifle fires before the shooter gets a chance to flinch, thereby contributing to accuracy.

The bolt is pure Mauser design, with a partially recessed bolt face, claw extractor and controlled round feeding. A single gas port is positioned centrally behind and under the locking lugs to redirect any escaping gases into the magazine box, down away from the shooter�s face. The bolt handle has been slimmed down and partially hollowed out to further trim weight.

The safety catch is located on the right side of the action, positioned for easy access by the right thumb. The European tradition has at last been broken with this model, which has the safety activated by thumbing the safety rearward so that it is in what we call the �normal� forward pushed position to release. The safety also locks the bolt. This means that multiple rounds cannot be cycled through the action without dismantling the bolt unless you look at the next unique feature on this bolt, which I have not seen before. It is a small, flat button on the left side of the bolt shroud that can be depressed when the rifle is cocked.

Because the firing pin partially protrudes the rear of the bolt shroud when acting as a cocking indicator, you can depress this button and then squeeze the trigger, resulting in the firing pin moving forward, but not enough to un-cock the bolt. In addition to this, the trigger becomes locked and prevents an accidental discharge. What it actually achieves is to allow the bolt to open with the rifle remaining cocked. Raising the bolt handle reactivates the trigger and allows the rifle to be used as normal. For removing or cycling a magazine full of cartridges through the action, this procedure would have to be done once per round to ensure safety.

While some models have a removable box magazine, the model 550 features a standard hinged floor plate with release catch positioned in front of the trigger guard. Everything is good old-fashioned steel, which will please many.

Another feature exclusive to Brno rifles for magnum calibres is the magazine capacity. This rifle very comfortably digested five rounds in the magazine box with the possibility of a sixth round being chambered and the rifle carried in an un-cocked position, necessitating a simple bolt lift to cock the action. In a life and death situation, or for a dangerous game rifle, this is a real bonus.

The barrel is quite long for a .458, measuring 63cm or just less than 25". This almost magnum-length barrel contributed to the highest velocities I have ever chronographed on any .458 rifle.

It also came fitted with three leaf Express sights shaped with a shallow �V�, with one fixed and sighted for 100 yards and two additional marked 200 and 300 yards. The foresight featured a hooded ramp with front bead silvered to enable easier sighting and visibility in poor light conditions. The rifle was very comfortable to shoulder and point, with the open sights always aligned after shouldering the rifle.

During the range shooting session, I had several people shoulder the rifle and comment on its nice feel and balance as it came out of the box. They also approved of the natural line-up of the open sights. This had an influence on the shooting, as I usually fit a scope to any rifle being assessed to better ascertain the accuracy potential of the test rifle.

This Brno was a little different for two reasons. To begin with, the rifle was supplied with a signed-off test target from the factory that I measured at .599", which, in my experience, is very good but not unusual accuracy from a .458 Magnum.

The second reason was that the mounts supplied with the rifle were a pain to fit, being of the four-screw-per-ring design, which is a plain stupid design and totally unnecessary to hold a scope in place on a heavy recoiling rifle. Equate that with the limited ability to provide equal tension on each of the eight screws involved and you have a recipe for tension and stress, which affects accuracy. After spending half an hour attempting to fit a scope to my satisfaction, I removed the mount and assessed the rifle as it came, with the factory sights.

Because this rifle is primarily thought of as a dangerous game rifle, �minute of buffalo� is more the requirement rather than minute of angle and this particular rifle had already been assessed at the factory as a sub-minute performer with factory ammunition, although the brand of ammunition was not stated on the target provided.

I began tests by setting up my Oehler 35P chronograph to read velocities at 15 feet, which allows for about 20fps additional velocity to be added for muzzle velocity. Using the Winchester 510-grain factory soft points as a starting point, I shot groups of about 3 1/5" to 4", which is the best my tired middle-aged eyes can do at 100 yards (91.4m). This is acceptable accuracy and what most hunters would be happy to achieve over the same range. The rifle also was sighted in line and slightly low, which was acceptable for testing purposes.

The Winchester factory cartridges chronographed at 2025fps, which is close enough to factory specs and delivered 4576ft/lbs of energy. That is enough to have earned the cartridge a reputation throughout 44 years as the premier dangerous game stopper for the professional or seasoned user. Most rifles in this caliber deliver velocities between 1900-1950fps. I attributed the increased velocity of the Brno at first to the longer barrel.This led me to include some other favourite loads for the .458 that have been worked up in my old Super Grade Model 70 with 22" barrel.

My personal favourite load for all-round use locally in the .458 is comprised of the Barnes X 300-grain bullet and 75 grains of AR2207. This load chronographed at 2805fps, 150fps faster than what my rifle produced. Because of this, I chronographed some other rifles with known loads to ascertain whether my Oehler had mis-read the velocities. They had not. The loads and velocities were legitimate. This was the fastest .458 Magnum I had ever tested.

The next load I tested used the 550-grain Woodleigh Weldcore bullet - another favourite because it loads easily into the short case of the .458 and with a charge of 74 grains of AR 2206, yielded velocities averaging 2111fps, which generated a very serious 5445ft/lbs of energy and is enough for all that can be hunted. Recoil with this load is very easy and not too heavy for the experienced shooter.

The last load I chronographed is not ideally suited to the short .458 case, as the bullet is very long at 1.614" or 41mm and encroaches too much on available powder space. A compressed load using 72 grains of AR2206 with the Barnes Traditional 600-grain bullet gave velocities of 1978fps for 5214ft/lbs of energy.

These are all very serious loads for hunting dangerous game at close quarters or our largest deer in timber country. Of the lot, I prefer the 300 or 400 Barnes X bullets for general hunting with a step up to the 550-grain Woodleigh when dangerous game is considered.

Overall, I was very pleased with this rifle. Its finish, performance, cosmetics and handling characteristics were everything most hunters would like in this type of rifle. I am pleased to endorse the Brno 550 as a very worthwhile consideration for any hunter contemplating a larger bore rifle for both local and international hunting


JW

AussieGunWriter, Thank you very much for the write-up. It would have got me to buy one.
Would have read it sooner but have had internet problems this past week.

My writing concentrates on the mechanics and the shootability of the rifle tested. I actually wote more on the illfitting, excessively, missaligned mounts provided, but that bit got edited. I included a pic taken through the scope to indicate how many feet away from the target it was sighted. Not good, but that was not the rifles fault.

There have been many comments on the higher velocities attained using CZ .458's and I wanted to provide a perspective from a non owner who tried one.

JW

Has anyone used the TSX in 450 gr in the 458 WM? What powders, loads, and COL have proven best?

70gn H 322 for 2281fps and 67gn of H 4198 for 2292fps.

JW

Thanks for the load data. It gives a starting point for planning. I'm still looking for H4895 starting data.

This may be old news by now, but BARNES new manual Number 4 shows 68.5 grains of H335 as a starting load for the 450 TSX in the 458 Win. Max is 72.5.

In my experience (in a long-throated Ruger #1 in 45-70 and my CZ550 in 458 Win), H335 is just a tad slower than H4895 in those two big bores. 1 grain less of H4895 (67.5 grains) would be a very safe starting point IME. Hornady's manual seems to confirm that with their 500-grainer. Personally, I prefer H335 to H4895 as the powder is compressed less being a ball powder and Hornady recommends it as the top choice for both the 458 Win and the Lott.

Interestingly, Barnes also seems to prefer that powder over H4895 as it is listed as giving best velocities, or second best, with all their bullets recommended for the 458 Win. H4895 is not even listed for the 458 Win in the Barnes new manual.