Just kicking the tires a bit, but would the Rigby produce more recoil in the same rifle with the same bullet and velocity due to burning more powder, or would the Rem Mag feel like it kicked worse due to higher pressure curve? Or does is there any difference at all? I handload so cost of ammo would not be a factor in my selection.
If I ever got to fulfill the dream of hunting Africa for large game, would I be better off with the Rigby due to availability of ammo in a crunch? I know the Rigby was designed to run at lower pressures for Africa and the potential for high temperatures.
Thanks in advance.

50 years from now, the Rigby will still be around. I doubt very much that can be said for the other calibers.

No expert here, so take this for what it's worth...

A 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps from either will feel pretty much the same. I believe your presumption that the Rigby with more powder will recoil more is technically correct, but I would bet that we are talking less than a few percent difference and your shoulder will never be able to tell. Now, you can reload the Rigby and load it hotter than the Remington and to higher velocity if you so desire, but I believe very few people do so because you don't need more than 2400 fps with a 400 grain bullet and who wants to deal with more recoil than you have to? 2400 fps is more than sufficient for any dangerous game you'll face. I suppose a 350 grain bullet at 2700 fps or more would give you a darn flat shooting, hard hitting round. Bottom line for me, though, is you can have more with the Rigby but you don't really need it and you'll pay for it in increased recoil.

Now, as far as Rigby ammo being more available, especially in Africa, it wasn't in my experience. Unless you're in RSA or Namibia, you'll be lucky to find 308, 30-06, and 375 H&H, let alone 416 Rigby. My PH in Zim used a 416 Rem and said Rigby ammo was virtually unobtainable. I suppose other areas where there is a lot of DG hunting done, it may be different. My PH with the 416 Rem had about 20 rounds of all different types of Factory ammo that he had accumulated over the years from other hunters and whoever he could trade and said buying .416 Rem ammo was pretty much the same deal as the Rigby. I left him my handloads and hope he's putting them to good use. Bottom line for me in this instance is if you carry a .416 anything don't plan on finding spare ammo over in Africa. Some places in AK I have seen 416 Rigby available, but in those shops where I saw the Rigby ammo, there was also .416 Rem. available.

By the way, in case it isn't obvious, I use the .416 Rem. Factory ammo for that is atrocious, but the price of Rigby ammo is out of this world! Thus, I've never fired a factory round in my rifle in over 5 years of owning it. I hope this information helps you out.
Test

this gets kicked around a lot, well 2-3 times a year at least!

IME, the recoil between the two is not that different.

I like the Rigby, primarily due to lower operating pressures and longer case life.

I personally prefer the .416 Remington or my new Mauser in 416 Ruger because they are lighter and less bulky and I have to pack them around in Africa heat for 10 to 15 miles as day..It takes a magnum plus action for the Rigby and if I have to pack around that kind of bulk and weight then I want a 500 Jefferys or 505 Gibbs. At the end of a hard track, the lighter guns sure make my old bones feel better.

As to the calibers they are equal in all respects as loaded today, but you can load the 416 Rigby with a 400 gr. bullet at 2700 FPS or even more, I have some friends that load it to 2900 FPS and yes the recoil at either is horrendous IMO..The Rigby is basically a 416 Weatherby with the belt removed..As to killing power the difference between 2400 FPS of the .416 Rem and the 2700 FPS of the Rigby is nil., at least on Cape Buffalo and elephant. The extra velocity might have more effect on Lion as they react to high velocity more so than the big undulants, Like whitetail deer, the lion is a high strung animal and velocity effects them greatly IMO...

This is pretty much a worn out subject and you will get a lot of opinnions on it from those who have used it and those who have read to many hunting books!

Bottom line is what are your wants, where do you stand on weight and bulk; nostalgia that goes with the .416 Rigby; both important issues with some of us..both are excellent rifles and its just your choice.

Thank you gentlemen for those outstanding posts! I especially liked albertan's post. By far the fewest words but it spoke volumes.

Everything you said is true about the hi vel dear loads. My friend is a fanatic dear hunter and his partners .257 weatherby seems to just turn the lights out on deer. On a lighter note the weatherby is a rigby with a belt not the other way around. I load mine with 350 TSX works great shoots flat. Regards dan

I prefer the Rigby. Lower pressure and longer brass life are important to me, especially as I reload (you have to at Rigby prices) and I only have the Rigby for hunting in Africa (well, primarily). Plus the Rigby has some history and cachet that the Remington lacks. The 416 Rigby is the real 416, the others amount to Johnny-come-latelys and interlopers.

A fitting term, indeed..

I haven't touched my .416 Rem yet.. Not sure I want to..

Lot of old repeating reasoning between the Rigby and the Rem. I have used both and see no difference in brass life, pressure is not a problem with either the Rigby or the Rem..Pressue is from putting too much powder in either one of them and since both will have more than enough velocity, why do folks have to stroke them, all that does is make for poor bullet performance on game..The Rigby is bulky and heavy and hard to pack on a 15 mile walk in the African heat as compared to the trim sleek and light .416 Rem or better yet the new .416 Ruger. If you have to pack a big bulky rifle in that stuff, why not use that big action for a real gun like the 500 Jefferys or 505 Gibbs.

Albertan,
So what do you base that statement on other than opinnion, do you really believe the 416 Rigby will be around in 50 years and the 416 Rem won't? I'd like to make a bet on that one except I won't be around to collect, short of a mircle! I suspect all the .416 will be around unless the politicians take them all away from us..

In all honesty the .416 Rigby has survived by nostalgia and that is the only reason, but its a good one and that is my only reason for being such a 404 Jefferys fan.

Just some food for thought, and each of us must make our own decisions, and they don't all have to be the same..I made mine by using both calibers and that experience lead me to my decision, others who are younger and tougher may come to another opinnion, and thats fine.

I'm a Rigby sorta guy.

Get the 416 Remington, unless you are hooked on nostalgic nonsense.

Get both, relax and enjoy!

In a 9 pound rifle, the Remington version will result in 60 ft lbs of recoil energy at 20 fps with a 400 gr slug going 2400 fps and a nominal powder charge of 75 gr.

To get the same slug going the same speed in the Rigby version, will require about 99 gr of powder, and the numbers read 71.5 ft lbs of recoil energy traveling 22.6 fps.

I'm guessing you could tell the difference in a 9 pound rifle. Not quite a 20% increase in recoil is pretty substantial, IMHO.

The above figures are assuming the rifle weighs the same for both cartridges.

I agree with the shootist as those numbers are correct, but who would want either in a 9 lb rifle? My Cz550 in 458 Win weighs 9.3 lbs off the rack, but by the time I added Warne quick-detach mounts, a Burris light fixed 4X scope, a nylon sling and 4 cartridges the weight is 10.6 lbs! Very manageable and excellent for offhand shooting!

Mr. Atkinson,

Yes, I really do believe Remington will wash their hands of a very fine cartridge, like they have so many times before. The Rigby has been a favorite cartridge of some of our most famous writers and sportsmen. The Remington version hasn't had a whole lotta ink spilled on it. With the Weatherby, the Lazzeroni(?), the Remington , now the Ruger, and others that I'm sure to have missed, the Rigby will still be here in 50 years. How many of the upstarts will survive? I doubt all of them. Judging by Remington's track record, not the Remington. Good cartridge though it is.

CZ550,

Just used a 9 pound rifle as a base line. I figured most decent rifles for a big bore like that would weigh at least that much. If I had one, it would weigh closer to what you're talking about, or maybe a tad more . . . . . I'm big enough to pack the brute, just don't want to get swatted.

I have a Rigby, and I like the idear of being able to load it flat out to 2700+ or back it right down to 2300 fps with 400 grain bullets. I have also been playing with some barnes 300 grain X bullets and have hit 3000 fps with them, which would not be doable in the .416 Remington.

My rifle comes in at a shade over 10 lbs with scope and full mag, and while the recoil is there its not out of this world even with full power loads. My advice is no matter what cartridge you get shoot it lots to get used to it.

Steve

Steve

The bigger case will always outrun the smaller ... but is it needed? I'd prefer the 416Rem as it can be built in a trimmer rifle, better yet the 416Ruger when it emerges as it'll fit an even trimmer rifle. There's nothing that can't be done with a 400gr at 2300fps and a 300gr at 2600fps ... easily achievable numbers in a 416Rem.
Cheers...
Con

Remington, Weatherby, Dakota, Rigby, Ruger, the 500\416, the Lazzeroni. How many of these do you think will survive? I think I will not try to develop a load based on new Winchester powders, or new Remington calibers. By the time you have things worked out, they have dropped them.

Is your 416's working pressure much below 44500 cup?

As to recoil I doubt you'd feel the difference but the calculation would give the Rigby more recoil due to a greater charge of powder to get to the 400 gr @ 2400 fps. This assuming the gas exit pressure was the same velocity and volume (Which they aren't)which we cannot calculate, or measure with my equipment, but in any case you won't feel it in rifles of the same weight.

As to the Rigby vs Rem ammo and popularity I'd say the Remington wins hands down all over Africa. A Rigby is now as I think it has almost been a novelty, meaning a rarity, among African hunters. It is and still more expensive (ammo) and most ammo that comes to the African countries comes via the US hunter and that leaves the Remington more popular, by far. The Rigby is a great old round and set the standard in ballistics for a forty caliber rifle. They are a trip to nostalgia and add adventure to any African hunt. Just bring your own ammo and give some to your hunting partner to bring and things should be fine.

As has been stated I can't tell much difference, if any. I own the Rigby & of course handload. Mine is ported & I find the recoil very manageable. This is a photo of a free roaming water buffalo that fell to one shot. I did do a mercy shot.

Albertan,
You could be right as I don't have much faith in Remington either, but I can always make 416 Rem brass from the .375 and I'm sure its here to stay...

That said I would argue that the .416 Rem is a more popular caliber than the Rigby..I see more .416 Rem. in Africa by far than the Rigbys..Its a matter of finance, the Remingtons are cheaper and PHs are not wealthy..

I don't think the .416 Rem is going away, but my latest rifle is a 416 Ruger and I sure am liking it. I built it on a 98 Mauser action.

My only complaint with the Rigby is bulk and weight, and that big action is wasted on such a small caliber when it can be a 500 or 505...

Ray: Your 416 Ruger is starting to make a lot of sense...

What are chances it will be factory adopted?

BobinNH,
I can guarentee you it will become a factory round, and that is a promise to me from the big horses mouth....

I shoot mine using 416 Rem. hand-loading data, and I get about the same velocities as I get with my 416 Rem but with about 4 grains less powder for whatever thats worth and that is only with RL-15 as I have no reason to experiment further as its the perfect powder for the .416 Ruger and Rem...My std. load is cut back to 79 grs. of RL-15 with any 400 gr. bullet and its very mild and gives me 2408 FPS in a 20" barrel!! Not bad IMO...That is 10 shots taking out the high and low velocities on my chronograph..

Is it better than the .416 Rem., who knows the 416 are all just clones of each other, they all do the same thing at the same velocities for all practical purposes.

Thanks for that response,Ray. It seems like an interesting cartridge;and they do all seem to operate about the same,too.

Albertan,
It was not that long ago that you could not buy 416 Rigby ammo, it was deader than the Mexican dollar, along with the .470, 450-400 and a bunch of others..It could happen again..I used to make 416 Rigby brass by turning the belts off 416 Wby brass on a lathe...

The 416 Rem is here to stay and you see a lot more of them all the time in Africa being used by locals and PHs. A lot of ammo companies make ammo, and should Rem quit making it others will jump on that band wagon.. Your right on one point,I wouldn't be surprised if Rem or Win. discontinued anything, they both have a bunch of professional bean counters with zits and just out of school, and are legends in their own minds...As a results Rem is up to there arse in law suits over a screwed up trigger system, and Winchester is here today and gone tomorrow..

One thing is for sure and that is the .375 H&H is here to stay and as long as its around, I will always have good .416 Rem brass, but these are things that I don't let bother me as a new barrel is pretty easy to come by if worse comes to worse.

A gentleman in our local gun club claims he took a brown bear at 350 yds with his .416 Remington.
I love a good story as much as the next guy..............
whelennut

It seems Americans specialize in high-intensity, smaller cartridges particularly where big bores are concerned wtih Wby specializing in both big and high intensity cart's. This is in contrast to the continental cartridges from the old, classic, English Nitro's to today's new H&H 400 and 465 mag's with their big, sloping, high-volume cartridges, but comparativley mild ballistics.

It seems the 458 Win is the epitome of that to it's own detriment until better powders finally came along. Looking at a 458 Win alongside a 470 Nitro E. (about same ballistics) is like looking at Mutt and Jeff. Same-almost-with the 416 Rem and the 416 Rigby. There are arguments for and against but lower pressures given the same ballistics always make sense to me although my dangerous game chasing experience is nil. But there are always trade-offs of one kind or another.

Gdv

Just a thought... Since you say that factory ammo for either .416, Rigby or Remington, is horribly expensive. Therefore your forced to reload to afford to shoot... Why not instead use and reload the wildcat .416 Taylor using cheaper .458, or .338 brass?
I'm not trying to sound like a know it all. I am interested in your reply. idahoguy101

One of the PH's we met in Zim had a .416 Remington 700. Dad had a .416 Rigby Ruger M77RSM. All the PH's breathed a sigh of relief that dad had a .416.

I think a .416 of any stripe is a good call. I liked the looks and features of the Ruger and they did not offer it in that caliber.

The ammo is pricy but dad took a 2,000 lb eland bull with one shot from the Rigby and the PH said he'd never seen that done before with one shot. The lion went right down too. To me, the results outweighed the ammo cost when lives were on the line.

Derek

Perhaps, but 10+ bucks a shot is nonsense...Nostalga only counts for so much...

I agree completely...but in the years since I've been shooting, the ammo costs across the board have gone up, up, up.

I remember a few years ago getting milsurp .308 for @ .35/round, and bricks of .22LR Thunderbolt for $5.99 on sale...;)

It sucks. The Rigby ammo jumped even since I bought dad the gun last year!

Derek

Who says you have to pay $10 per round for the stuff. I bought the new Hornady Dangerous Game stuff not long ago for $80 a box or so. That's more like $4 per round which is very reasonable in my opinion. And it shoots well in my Ruger. I didn't chrono it yet, but it was accurate. These other companies may have to restructure their pricing to get a little more in line with Hornady eventually to stay competitive, or else they may just drop the likes of the Rigby from their line completely. But at $10 per round there's a whole lot of profit margin built in. If all else fails, reload for it. The savings over the price of the overpriced stuff will pay for the needed equipment in a matter of a couple or three boxes.

David

I'll bet the sigh of relief was due to the preference for a CRF Ruger over the push feed 700, not the chambering.

I just started seeing the Hornady Dangerous Game ammo locally here. It's hard to find any big game ammo within 50 miles of where I live. Gander Mtn. is spotty and overpriced at best so usually a trip to Bass Pro (@ 50 miles away) or Cabela's (@ 100+ miles) is in order.

I'd definitely try the Hornady stuff. I may also start reloading if dad is going to use the gun for more game.

Actually, the PH loved .416 as a caliber.

His quote to me at dinner one night was "Oh yes, .416, the way forward."

He had a lightweight Rem 700 in .416 Rem that he carried all the time. I didn't fire it but he said it kicks like a bugger.

The other PH fired dad's gun while we were sighting in and he left with a big smile on his face. "That's really nice!!"

The prices for the 416 Rigby up here in BC have been between $195 and $210 a box for Federal 400 grain cape shock's. I got a bag of 50 brass at Cabelas in Washington. It sure made my reloading gear pay off quickly.

Okay, I see what your point was. The PH was happy your dad brought a .416, perhaps any .416, to hunt with.

Order the Hornady stuff from Midway. Or Cabela's, their new catalog has it for about $85 a box. That's cheap enough. I get most of my stuff like that from Midway. When I ordered the boxes I got, they were out of Hornady brass, so I ordered the loaded rounds, put the factory boxes away so they'd stay new, and will use the brass for reloads. Killed the proverbial 2 birds, maybe 3. Got brass, got factory boxes to tote my reloads in and get to test the Hornady factory ammo in my rifle. Good to have a plan B.

David

I have never owned either of these rifles, but I do kick tires like most. I would go with the .416 Rem due to cheaper cartridges and maybe easier to get. No other reason though.

When I get the chance ... It'll be the Rigby for me, may never get to Africa ... but I will own a Rigby.