Just starting to load for a Ruger #1 in 404 Jeffery. I'm using Barnes 400 solids and TSXs. I can find data for both bullets, but I have some Woodleigh 450 grain solids I'd like to try - can't locate any data for those. Any favorite loads for the Woodleigh 450 or experience with them on buff? Thanks

Reloaded 15 is your friend.

I used Woodleigh 400's in my CZ .404 Jeffery in Africa in 2006 -- but only on blesbok . I used 400 gr TSX's on the buff...

I loaded 76 gr of Re 15, but you could likely use more or less...

Dennis

I have no experience with the 404, but I could run it though a QuickLoad or LFD if you wanted, to see what it comes up with

Dan, thanks. I already tried QL including the latest update download, but the 450 Woodleigh solid is not included in the data base. Muledeer, thanks. I'll try the RL 15 this week. I tried an interesting experiment today, turning 375 RUM cases into 404 Jeffery. Reversing the process I guess. I plan to use the converted 375 RUM cases (all it takes is a single pass through the 404NE sizing die with a tapered expander button) for load development and practice and save the (expensive) 404-headstamped cases for hunting trips to places where customs is watching the ammo. Have you tried this?

Yes I have...somewhere on here is a thread with pics where Con and I were discussing this exact possibility. Rutten sent me three .375 RUM cases and I ran them through the die. I loaded them with RWS 400-gr solids and went to the range. I think the rim is a touch smaller, but my CZ fed and ejected them without a bobble.

If you check the .404 Jeffery data in Barnes #4 you can see a pic of my buff... .

Dennis

There is a small difference in rim and head diameter, as well as in the extraction groove configuration. However, so far my Ruger #1 extracts and ejects the 375RUM-404NE cases without problems. I hope to get to the range next weekend and try out some loads. I still need to compare case capacities to determine starting loads. I'll look up your photo next time I see the Barnes #4 (not one of my on-site resources).

Muledeer, got a hold of the Barnes #4 today - great buff in the picture and some real interesting loads there. I also got H4350 load data for the 450 grain Woodleigh bullets from Geoff McDonald @ Woodleigh. Since the SD of the 450 grain .422 bullet is very similar to the .458 500 grain bullet and their data shows max MV of 2160 fps I think this may be the bullet I initially work with for buff. I'm planning a buff hunt in Mozambique for 2009 so it was interesting to read the description of your hunt.

I think whatever bullet you choose in .422-.423 is likely to work for you -- not a caliber with a bunch of bad bullets running around, I think.

Have you booked your hunt yet? What part of Moz are you going to? I'd be happy to tell you about my experience, if that would be useful.

Dennis

Yes, we've booked in the Marameu Coutada 10 area with Phillip Bronkhorst. As far as I can tell from the maps I've seen the area extends inland from the coast, generally between Beira and the Zambezi. A friend has hunted with this safari outfit and has had a good experience, although this will be our fist hunt for buffalo. I would certainly find it helpful to hear about your experience in Moz. Thanks

That's pretty much the same area I hunted. I'm about to walk the dog and go to bed, but within the next couple of days I'll send you a PM with pics and a description of my hunt.

What month are you hunting? I was there in August, which is allegedly winter -- though it was hotter than the hinges of hell.

More to follow, via PM.

Dennis

We'll be there 1st week in August.

The 404 Jefferys is my all time favorite African caliber and I have used it for close to a century!! I have shot about everything Africa and the NA continent have to offer with it..

For a near max load try 95 grs. of IMR-4831 with any 400 gr. bullet for 2653 FPS in a 27 inch barrel and about 2600 FPS in your 26" barrel..pressures are low and its the best velocity of any powder and accuracy is usually outstanding..recoil is offensive. It is a full case of powder but not compacted.

Northfork Industries used my load of 95 grs and tested it for pressure and velocity and came up with almost the exact figures as I had, although they had more safisticated equiptment than I.

My hunting load is 93 grs. of same for a bit over 2400 FPS and recoil is much milder..

I have used RL-15 and 4350s with satisfactory results but the above is by far the best velocity and accuracy in every 404 I have owned or tested and that is quite a large number of 404 rifles...

Good luck and you picked a winner.

Thanks Ray. Just loaded some 450 Woodleigh solids and 400 Barnes banded solids to get started. I hope to get to the range & chrono them this week to get an idea of what my rifle (24" bbl) will do. I'll try your 4831 & RL15 loads in my next batch.

Any idea where that thread is? I've come up empty.

thx ......

The loads I made up today were all in cases re-formed from 375RUM, so if I can get to the range before the week ends I can post the results of this experiment, if there's interest. Preliminary measurements done on random 5-case samples of 3 batches of cases (2 from BeLL and 1 the re-formed 375RUMs) show internal capacity (to the case mouth using BL C-2) to be: BeLL 1 = 113.6 grains, BeLL 2 = 113.0 grains and 375RUM-404 Jeffery = 113.2 grains. So capacity doesn't seem to be a problem. Rim diameter is 0.542" for BeLLs and 0.534" for the 375RUMs, not a problem extracting before firing, but we'll see how the expanded fired cases do.

I can't find it either . But here's the pic of gthe cases...


It's like Wildcatter said -- case head is slightly smaller, but that seems to present no problems in my CZ either. Case capacity does seem to be equal, and the ammo shoots to point of aim.

If I didn't have a goodly supply of Norma .404 brass, I would be reforming .375 RUM brass without a care. It seems to work.

Dennis

This photo shows the BeLL 404 Jeffery case on the left and the reformed 375RUM case on the right, both unfired. The only visible difference is the extraction groove dimension and shape.

muledeer,
Stop showing those pictures! I have a 375H&H length max box in the mail for a Ruger, know the wherabouts of a cheap donor stainless 7mmRemMag ... I dont need the temptation to build a stainless 404Jeffery to use up my 300RUM brass!
Cheers...
Con

You could always trim the necks and build a .404 Short like we talked about before...

Just trying to be helpful from half a world away .

Dennis

Con...I will now make you crazy... .

I went out to the shop this morning, dinking around while smoking venison (my project for the day), and made two...are you ready?....404 Ruger cases!

Here they are, one loaded with a 400 gr RWS solid, next to .404 Jeffery cases, one loaded with a 400 gr Woodleigh Weldcore.


Here they are next to the parent .375 Ruger cases, one loaded with a 300-gr Hornady RN.


No particular reason to do it, other than rebarreling a Ruger .375 African to .404 Ruger... .

Now...what can I sell... .

Dennis

Not to add fuel to this fire but, the 404 Ruger probably wouldn't give up much to the Jeffery, as much as I hate to admit it. A quick measurement on a fired Ruger case shows a capacity difference of only ~10 grains less for the Ruger than the NE (to the case mouths, Ruger = 102.7 vs 404-375RUM = 113.2). Hitting 2250-2300 fps with a 400 gr .422" bullet out of the Ruger would probably not be out of the question - new wildcat? And a std length SS action to boot ...

If you were to measure capacity to the base of a 400 gr bullet seated to the cannelure, I think the .404 Ruger will have more case capacity. The Jeffery case has an exceedingly long neck, and a very sloping shoulder.

I have no doubt that I could run a 400 gr bullet to 2400 fps in a .404 Ruger with a 23" barrel. If I come across another great deal on a Ruger African, I may send it to Clearwater for a reboring job. I can neck-size and load cases with my .404 Jeffery dies -- at least enough to send fired cases off to have dies made.

Mind you -- I have zero need for such a thing...but wouldn't it be cool ?

Such is the life of the rifle looney .

Dennis

Because the seating depth of the .422" bullet would be the same for both the 404 NE and the 404-375 Ruger seated to the cannelure, case volume occupied by the bullet would be equal. Therefore, the 10 grain differential in effective case capacity would remain. That said, assuming that the higher working pressure specified for the 375 Ruger would be used in the 404-375 and identifying a powder with favorable burning rate - which IMO shouldn't be difficult or radically different than the ones that work in the 375 Ruger parent cartridge - the 10 grain capacity difference would produce an insignificant effect on predicted MV. So I think we agree about the potential for this wildcat. I like the idea of reboring a Hawkeye as I have a 375 Alaskan sitting in the cabinet, and like how it stands up to bad weather.

Dennis, just read my last post and realized that in my hurry to post it I failed to acknowledge your original authorship of the 404-375 Ruger wildcat & Hawkeye rebore idea. If you'd like a collaborator in its development please let me know.

I'm probably not the first guy to think of it, but if I'm the first one to publish a reference to it, on the Internet or otherwise, then I can claim it as intellectual property. Then I can claim originator rights and demand compensation from anyone who takes it any further commercially.

I'm betting I could net at least $11 out of the whole deal, with the help of a good lawyer .

Collaborate away...I can always use company in my loonacy... . I do think it would be fun...and would make a swell bear-stomper.

Dennis

Great. I checked with Jim Dubell at Clearwater Reboring and found out he doesn't have the rifling head needed to do a 404 (0.422") rebore. So, I'll need to do some looking for another source. I think the rebore is a better idea than re-barrelling. Will post on progress.

Extremely cool !

You might look at www.cutrifle.com as a possibility.

Thanks for pursuing this idea...

Dennis

Dubell recommended Pedersen as a possibility. I'll be in touch with them next month to see what we can do. Thanks

I have a 416/375 Ruger caliber custom rifle that I built and it is for sale on Guns America btw.. I found I could duplicate the .416 Rem with ease and with less powder..A 400 gr. bullet at 2400 is a snap..It is a great caliber and soon to be a factory number.

As to the 404/375 Ruger that is my next project but I assure you that you cannot duplicate the .404 Jefferys as the 404 case is just too much bigger, but it will be a nice caliber, no doubt about that...I don't know about capacity to the shoulder of the 404, but I do know that a case full of IMR-4831 will give a 400 gr. bullet 2663 FPS plus in the 27 inch tube on my Jefferys and the 375 Ruger case is not going to do that.

The problem is most folks have no hands on experience with the .404 Jefferys and are quoting what they have read by folks with the same lack of experience as they have...Case capacity is to the top of the neck with some powders, other powders are reported to push the bullets out over night, but that is because their expander button is too large on their resizing die, not a case design problem. I have tested this throughly and that is a false assumption.

The 404 case is big and right up there with the 416 Rigby..Actually you can get an easy 2700 FPS with the Rigbys 410 gr. woodleigh, and I know a couple of guys that shoot the 400 gr. bullets at near 2900 FPS in the Rigby. 2700 is about all my heart will take....

My max load in my .404 Jefferys is a 400 gr. bullet at 2600 FPS in my 26 inch custom mauser, and brass last pretty well with about 10 or more loadings average..

I don't use RUM brass as it is simply too much trouble and the specs are not exact and 404 Chambers can vary more than I like btw..
Norma brass is not all that expensive and when loaded at the accepted mild load of 2400 FPS as is my "hunting load" the brass last forever it seems.

One thing for sure the .404 is an outstanding round that has proven itself world wide with a 400 gr. bullet at 2300 FPS as in the old days..It started out at 2100 FPS and today that load is highly praised and claimed to be the round that made the .404 famous but it isn't, that 2100FPS, in fact, was somewhat of a failure so the old firm of RWS upped the load to 2300 fps and it skyrocketed in popularity. Its fame came about as it was a cheap rifle made by FN, and was the darling of the Kenya and Tanzania game depts and it excelled at its job...Did then and still does today..It is my all time favorite DGR..

Update: Finally got to the range today and chronographed the first set of loads using re-formed 375 RUM cases and Woodleigh 450 grain solids. These were shot at 25 yards as a feasibility test. All 5 shots, loaded with H4350 in 2 grain increments from 71-75 grains went into a single cloverleaf. (I'll post the target photo when I can) and recorded MV 1940 (71 g) to 2076 fps (79 g). This is about as expected on the low end but about 100 fps lower than a max load at the top end - no pressure signs - according to the data I got from Woodleigh. Encouraged by the accuracy, although the range is short, and surprised at the very mild recoil from the bench with the factory muzzle brake. The cases extracted perfectly. More tests in a few weeks.

you should be able to get about 2350 FPS with a 450 gr. Woodleigh IMO. I can get that in my 404 Jefferys, actually more but pressure is right up there at 2400 FPS, still safe but recoil is grim..I am thinking my hunting load will be 2300 FPS. with the 450 gr. bullet. I would guess that 2250 FPS in a 404/Ruger..I have been working on that one for about a year and it will soon be finished so I put my 416 Ruger on the selling block here on 24 hr.

IMO, the Ruger case is better designed for the 400 gr. bullet in both the .416 and the 404 Rugers...but there ain't no flies on the 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS and thats a fact.

Thanks for the information. I'm pretty sure I should be able to reach 2250 fps staying at/under 53K PSI. I may push beyond this a bit if pressure signs -primarily ease of extraction in my #1- are absent. I might be tempted to push it further in a bolt, but will take certain extraction in the single loader over another 100 fps MV. I think a 450 grn .423" bullet with an SD = .361 (vs. the .458" 500 grn SD = .341) should penetrate enough to dispose of anything short of (maybe including?) elephant even at 2150-2200 fps. Does that agree with your experience?

Not to speak for Ray, but every PH I talked to in Africa had 100% confidence in my .404 to take on anything, with standard 400-gr loads. Uncountable numbers of dangerous game have been killed quite handily with .404's in the hands of game rangers and PH's over the past century or so, and there is no reason to suspect that today's superior bullets and powders have done anything but make it even better.

T-Rex might call for more, but nothing else does .

Dennis