For some silly reason I crave one. But here are some questions:

First, I assume the one to get is the 3" case, not 3 1/4".

Are modern double rifles in this caliber built on smaller frames than, say .470s or .450s?

Do they cost any less? I note that 9.3x74s seem to cost about half as much as .470s.

Is the 450/400 appropriate for elephant? With 400 grain solids at 2200 I don't see why it wouldn't be.

IndyCA35,

I just ordered a 450/400 3", and the answer to question one is maybe. All the better makers will scale the frame to match the rifle to make it balance ie. (westley richards, H&H, Famars,Fanjoiz,Jeffery,ect.)

2nd question is are they less, the answer is no. They are the same price. I wished, I think they would have a heck of a market at sub 10K.

Appro for elephant? You bet. I have a good buddy that has shot well over 10 elephant (3 bulls and 7 or 8 cows with his jeffery and said he loves it! He has a number of doubles (500,500/465,475 #2) and his little jeffery is his go to gun.

I've had a 577 and 470 and I wanted something a little more versatile. I came up with the 450/400 $80 bucks a box for factory, a 400 grain bullet to put stuff down, and pretty darn mild recoil. No wonder they built a boat load of them back in the day.

Ed

3" is the later one, and the one to have. 3 1/4 was black powder, as I understand it.

Properly done, they are lighter. They cost the same.

I personally can't speak to killing elephant, so I defer to Craig Boddington. He says it is the perfect double rifle caliber for buffalo and is fine for hunting elephant, even if it isn't a stopping rifle (for elephant).

There is a 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Express cartridge, and its ballistics are superior to the 3" by about 100fps. But the 3" is being loaded by Hornaday. Velocity of the 3" is 400gra at about 2050fps. Nominal ballistics are better, but the spec for them is from a 30" barrel.

The 450/400, either the 400 Jeffery (3") version or the 3 1/4" need to be built on the same size action as a 450NE 3 1/4". The 450/400 3 1/4" uses the same case as the 450 3 1/4". All of those can be built on a smaller action than that needed to accomodate the 500/450, 500/465, 470 (really the 500/470, or the 500, which all are based on the same case.

JPK

IIRC Kynoch ballistics for the two 450/400s are identical.

I looked at the new Zoli 450/400 o/u dbl at both the SHOT and SCI shows. it is regulated with the new Hornady ammo and appears to be very well built and priced correctly.
At 8 3/4 pounds it looks to be a nice rifle for those willing to try something other than a SxS.

In reality there is only about 25 FPS difference between the 3 1/4" and the 3" and that went away with modern powders like IMR-4831 and RL-15...Both are excellent cartridges but you need to use fillers in the 3 1/4 with some powders and the available brass is not up to 3" stuff...All in all the 3" version is the most practical and easiest to reload for...but if I had a nice 3 1/4" gun I sure wouldn't run out and sell it just to buy a 3" gun.

A 450-400 should weigh at least 9.5 lbs and 10 to 10 1/2 lbs is even better IMO...Neither caliber is exactly a pussy cat in the recoil dept., particularly with a good handload.

9.5 to 10.5 pounds for a 450/400 double ? Ray, I thought you old rodeo cowboys were tough. My 110 pound daughter shoot a 7.5 pound 416 Rem - with a thin recoil pad and no sissy slots.

FWIW,

I have a Zoli 12gauge over 7x57 Combination Gun,it has twin triggers and functions perfectly,I had considered getting one in 9.3x74R in a Double. Now that it's available in 450/400,I am very tempted. The price is reasonable and this caliber will handle just about anything. These guns are easy to put a quick detach scope on too,it seems about perfect.

The only thing wrong is that it won't look nearly as cool in the pictures as a nice side by side,it just doesn't have that traditional look,I can't picture Hemmingway with one.

I don't know, Hemmingway seemed to like his S-3 Beretta O&U shotgun.
On the Zoli dbl rifle the front trigger is also a set trigger and with a scope mounted on the rib with QD Warne mounts it would certainly work better for the occasional long shot and still offer the benefits of a dbl for close range.
It also opens in a wide arc and looks easy to load quickly.

I didn't know about the set trigger,that will allow the gun to work scoped with one barrel out to a couple hundred yards or maybe more. Think Ruger Number One with a quick second shot in a pinch.

This makes it more versatile than a side by side. Does it have selective ejectors? That would make it run as quick as a double in the brush with iron sights while holding the edge scoped in the open.All for half the price of a comparable side by side.

I am running out of reasons not to buy one. I gotta quit reading this stuff.

The set trigger feature on the front trigger also makes it act as an articulated front trigger to keep your finger from getting battered in recoil.
I'm also looking at buying one in order to give it a serious trial under Alaskan conditions. It ought to be a fine backup rifle for bear hunting.

The articulated front trigger is another nice touch. Tell you what,I could buy one and give it to you for a tip if you make me the super deal of a lifetime on the 'Obama Commerative Recession Alaskan Adventure'.

You probably have gotten tips that were a lot worse.Think about it.

O/U work great. I just cant get over the side by side. My 450/400 is a FAMARS boxlock-- there African hunter model. Should be here by July or Aug of this year. I cant wait!

Ed

Phil,
I am smart enough to know that your "little girl" is tougher than wang leather, can outshoot anyone on this forum, and I do not want to compete with her on that end! and you have shot so many big bores that you brain malfunctions at the pop of the primer, you feel nothing as that brain bounces of the sides of your skull, but your time is near!...:)

I, on the other hand prefer the 10 lb. gun and the recoil that is more like a maidens caress and it does not injure my tender body wracked with rumitez and age relate inflictions, thus the old proverb, "Getting old ain't for sissies"

That said, my other endm the one I use to cowboy on, is tougher than hell and roping has no lasting effects on my muscles other than I hurt all over, including my eyebrows the following day..:)

Phil,
I am smart enough to know that your "little girl" is tougher than wang leather, can outshoot anyone on this forum, and I do not want to compete with her on that end! and you have shot so many big bores that you brain malfunctions at the pop of the primer, you feel nothing as that brain bounces of the sides of your skull, but your time is near!...:)

I, on the other hand prefer the 10 lb. gun and the recoil that is more like a maidens caress and it does not injure my tender body wracked with rumitez and age relate inflictions, thus the old proverb, "Getting old ain't for sissies"

That said, my other endm the one I use to cowboy on, is tougher than hell and roping has no lasting effects on my muscles other than I hurt all over, including my eyebrows on the following day..:)

Always good to know you ain't been et, yet...

My Watson Bros. .450/.400 3 1/4 in weighs 10 lb. 2 oz empty. Its recoil is not bad, but I don't think I'd want it any lighter. It handles and carries just fine, balance is perfect and it "feels" lighter than it is. I'd rather carry it than my 9 pound M70 .375 any day.

Would not hesitate to hunt elephant with it, although I bought it with buffalo in mind.

Steve,
You said it all on the 450-400...end of story.

I know I'd sure like one.

I just scanned the Antoni Zoli website and those superposed double rifles do look fine and I'm getting the itch too but I didn't see any 450/400 chambered rifle below 10k. The 9.3x74R and standard chamberings were priced in some models at about 6k.

Indy,
I consider the 450-400 a very capable elephant rifle. The 470 or 500 is probably better under all conditions, at least from a logical point of view, but I use my 450-400-3" Searcy on all dangerous game and have for years used that caliber..I shot the 470 for awhile but couldn't tell much difference in the results.

But I am sold on the 40 calibers, they are all I have ever needed and they have served me so well I see no reason to change again, tried it more than a few time with bigger calibers and didn't like them as well, so I'll probably stay with the big 40's...

The 450-400s by Searcy are on smaller frames than the .470 etc. and I really like that..You can shoot monolithics in the Searcys btw...

In all the English rifles I have seen, the 450-400s in both configurations are on .470 frames and quite heavy at 10.5 pounds or more..However they do have much heavier barrels as a result of the larger frames and they are the one English double rifle caliber that I am comfortable shooting monolithics in as the barrels are so damn thick...I have shot many rounds of Barnes X in my English doubles, both Jefferys, Watson, and Army Navy. I won't shoot them in the larger calibers in English rifles as the steel is not up to todays quality IMO.

Search Heym USA and give Chris a call. He can answer most if not all of your questions and he will not pressure you to buy his product. He will be in on Tues. I just bought the .450/.400!

Jprice,

Having handled one of the 450/400 Heyms in the shop that I believe Chris may use as a "showroom," I have to say I really like that rifle. Plain & functional and in a caliber I like. I need to start saving up a little "change" for that one. The one I handled had a "sold" tag and for all I know was your rifle!

If one wanted a nice 450-400-3", and cost is a concern, then I would just buy a good Ruger No.1 in that caliber at around $800 for a new one or find a used one for a couple of hundred less...

If I were going to buy a double then it will be a Searcy or an English boxlock double. That will cost about $1500 to $2000 more but its going to cost a bunch anyway.

is it any slimmer / lighter than the Heym 470 ? (my 470 weighs about 9.7# empty)

It is an ideal buffalo caliber. Recoil is light enough to get off a quick follow-up shot out of the left barrel.

Both of these guys got a right and left, and both were down inside of 30 yards.

Chris,

is it built on the same frame as the 470 >

matt

Nice buffs! Don't know much about doubles - what's the rifle in the pics?

It's a Heym PH