I have used the search function but I am not turning up much for "double rifles" on this board. Am I looking in the wrong section?

Do I just need to start a "Double Rifle" thread?

Thnx

what kind of info are you after? I've written some here and there.

maybe try searching by name? heym,searcy,chapuis,merkel, etc

You could start a double rifle thread. In fact perhaps Rick should have seperate heading for double rifles only...I have been shooting doubles for about 30 years I guess, and doubles are an interesting subject and actually a whole new ball game as what is fine with a bolt gun or any other action seldom applies to the double, it's a whole nuther world...a world full of folklore, and old maids tales!

Well - about all I know about doubles is ... to hold them makes me happy.

Although I am sorely tempted to jump in what I KNOW is the low end of the market and buy the Remington 45-70 double (because it is probably the only one I can afford), I am wondering if I should just save my pennies until I can pay a few thousand more and get something else.

I guess I just don't know enough about them to intelligently even make a plan for owning one (or several) someday.

In an ideal world, I could buy a few to enjoy and as "investments"

Any suggestions on where to start learning besides right here? If there are threads here that I haven't turned up, I'd appreciate any links to them you could guive me.

Thanks in advance. Mike

A double rifle means dangerous game; therefore have any double inspected and appraised by an expert before you buy.

I'd avoid the Rem/Baikal like the plague. really.


we had a thread last year (in this forum) on the subject.
it'd be worth looking up.

personally, I'm fond of the Heym 88B (I have one).

I've not shot a Searcy, but have shot a Chapuis/Merkel/Blaser/and older Rigby.

It's worth at least saving until you get into the Chapuis/Merkel price range.

here's a few threads to wade through:


The remington/baikahl thread

working up 470 a load before moose season

the final 470 moose season report

found another:

more pics

there are a number of threads scattered around here and there - I know of about a dozen or so members that have them.

I'd like to see a double rifle forum here....

Not to steal any one's thunder here, if you really want to kick a few tires on this subject, you might want to try this link. HERE

There are more than a few posts on this topic. I know of no other site that is more devoted to the subject @ hand.

ya. BTDDT. Good info - it's a slow-moving site though. once-a-month reading is more than enough to "keep up"


an you don't get yelled at as much there as you do on AR.

I see where the Baikal 45-70 and 30-06 doubles are selling in New Zealand for around $900 US.

Thanks guys!
I now have some reading to do

It kinda warms the heart to see that Russian slave labor has finally paid off for them.

I had the pleasure of owning 2 fine Browning Express doubles a couple of years ago . It was a pleasure to use such well made rifles,they were over and under doubles, one in 7x65 rimmed and the other in 30.06.I tried nearly every combination of tried and true loads available , BUT it was very frustrating trying to regulate them without the exact ammo.They were both regulated for Browning Belgium factory ammo.This particular ammo was never imported , so a trial and error period of 5 years began .The best I ever did was 2" groups at 80yds , In the end I sold both and made a nice profit BUT they were a joy to own.Double rifles can be fun to own as a deer rifle or pig gun , probably the best time I've had, in the sense that I had to start from scratch and work up.If you see a double in a little calibre like I did grab it , they are more fun to shoot ,cost less and don't hurt like the big ones do. Regards and good shooting.

Unless the only thing available to pry open a crate was a baikal...


Valmets!! Brownings!! They show up every so often in a search. I had a valmet 12/12, 06/06
Sold 'em kick myself in the arse everytime a thread like this shows up, lol.

And Paul Jaeger was converting ruger red labels into O/U big bores, i.e. 45-70 etc.

FYI, I started a cape gun /drilling thread in the shotgun forum too!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...mp;Number=2943223&page=0#Post2943223

ok...but why avoid them? Are they unsafe or just ugly?

read the rem double thread I linked above, as well as it's internal links.

very little handwork + high pressure round + Russia = trouble.

It seems to me a double rifle in 45-70 is about as useless as tits on a boar hog...

The double is good for one thing only and that is when a elephant, hippo, lion, or buffalo is all over your butt at less than 10 yards then that quick second shot is the greatest thing since sliced white bread!!!:)

I have always had at least one double rifle in a big bore until recently and I finally decided I would just as soon have a good bolt gun in a 404 or 416..Doubles are mostly nostalgia and not needed in todays safari where you have a world of back up

They are however a thing of beauty, and pride of ownership is worth a lot...I just can't justify them any more as I dont' go to Africa every year like I used to, and I have too much money tied up in horses these days to afford the double rifles..

I agree. Nostalgia and appraciation of the fine piece itself are the ONLY reasons to buy.

I just had a talk today with one of the nations top gunbuilders - who has plenty of experience with doubles - and one of his comments was that doubles are a "tinker's delight" with two different barrels - each one often giving different velocities with the same ammo - trying to shoot into one group.

I often have enough trouble getting one barrel to group.

I hear that.

But I understand they are designed (originally) to hit a football at 25 yards offhand--That is the size of the elephant brain.

Could be wrong,

BMT

In my somewhat limited experience with the Russian ones- only on two different ones. One the rifle barrel shot so incredibly high we never got it to come down to be able to use scope. It also @ 40 yards was about 2 feet higher than the shotgun barrel, the other (a double rifle) the barrels weren't close to the same point of impact. Honestly they felt like clubs, the workmanship was rough. I have no idea if the newer ones have addressed this or not. But in the end both owners of the two wished they had simply spent a couple of hundred more and got a used anything else. Just my .02
Guns America, gunbroker, or even here in the "wanted" section.

I saw a BRNO ZH-344? I think it was, dont know much about them, but they were "lower" buck as I recall.
Personally I always wanted a superposed 22 mag on baby frame.

I do not own a double rifle. I can appreciate the rapid second shot capabilities usefulness in the scenario of dangerous game hunting in the thick jess. I will continue to use my magazine rifles to good effect because that is what I am most familiar. BUT I must say that when I first handled a friends 470 NE double that was made a best british maker, the nostalgia was palpable as was the sense that here in my hands was a highly refined tool that was also art. My friend sold the rifle later in favor of a DArcy Echols custom because of his inability to shoot it accurately due to eyesight issues.

workmanship is everything - and that's what you're paying for.

A decent double should be able to group under 6" at 100 yards with open sights and proper loads.
Most big bores are regulated at 50-70 meters, and here should group 2-3" at most.

here is a 50yd target of my 70meter regulated 470 (off sticks):




and here is a stack of targets offhand from 50,70,100 and 100 yards.

That's some good shooting. My targets don't look quite that good so hopefully you'll understand me not posting them.

I was reading a CZ-USA catalog yesterday. In it was an over & under double barrel rifle in 458WinMag with an MSRP of around $5K

if you want to learn about doubles and study the market, the best resource is Double Gun Journal. it's your money, but a low end double is kind of a contradiction in terms.

here's mine....a 1914 vintage Watson Bros. .450/.400 3 1/4 in. It'll put pairs in an inch and a half at fifty yards, but I usually shoot pairs of half gallon milk jugs offhand..now THAT is fun.

I just bought a Heym .450/.400 last week . I will post pics when it comes in.

I purchased a new Chapuis last year in 9,3x74R. Makes a fine moose rifle and is capable of shooting anything in NA and almost everything in Africa where it is a legal caliber. It is very accurate and will shoot groups no larger than 1.5 inches at 50 yards shooting each barrel by holding the rifle and resting only my elbows on the bench. The guys over at the AR forum have there own double rifle section and are very helpful.
Unless you are very talented with working on doubles I would avoid the Remingtons. Heard many bad stories about getting them to shoot correctly out of the box.

Thought I'd give my two cents. I have one of the Rem/Baikal 45/70 side by sides and really like it. No, it's not a high quality gun. (If I could afford one I would buy one.) And, it's only rated for 31,000 psi so you can't load it up with some of the really stiff loads.(And no, I'm not one of the people who think the 45/70 is a dangerous game cartridge.) But,it functions well and the barrels regulate just like they are supposed to. I'm getting 2" groups combined both barrels at 50 yds.
I have to disagree with those who say the double is ONLY for a quick second shot on dangerous African game, and those who say to stay away from the Baikal/Rem, and those who say a double 45/70 is useless. In hunting situations of 100yds or so, it should be a real killer on most any North American game, except maybe the big bears. And, there is A LOT of hunting out there where 100yds is as long as you are going to shoot.
IMHO if you are like me and have always just wanted a double then don't shy away from this one, if you can still find one. They blew off the shelves as fast as the gun shops could get them.

Mssgn, there is a double rifle on Gunbroker.com, about page 9 I think, that is a shotgun conversion. I don't know a lot about doubles but I know these were done. It is in 450 #2 which is a big but low pressure case which I assume is why it was chosen (a 450-grain bullet at ~ 2150 fps). It is a modest looking but well kept looking gun and he's asking about $4500; whether he'll get that is another question. The bid right now is just over 3k

Yea, they seem to potentially provide a quagmire of problems in reverse proportion to price; yet, as much as I like sxs bird guns, I sure would like to carry a medium caliber double after moose.

Utahlefty, what did you not like about the Blasers?

It isn't necessary to dump a ton of money into a double, if you keep your eyes open and don't insist on a Britihs big-bore. I own two double rifles at the moment, a pre-WWII German SxS in 9.3x74R from Thieme-Schlegelmilch, a pretty well-known firm that like many others went under during the war. It weighs eight pounds and easily regulated with 286's (Nosler Partitions and Woodliegh Solids) at 60 meters and H4350. It will shoot two pairs into under 2" all day at that range with iron sights. Luckily it also shoots 270 Speers to the same place so practice can be cheaper!

It had bases for an unknown mounts, but I was able to file away on a set of Talleys and make them fit. Sometimes I shoot it with a scope, but mostly with irons--including the flip-up tang sight that is hinged into the pistol grip.

My other double is a .30-40 Krag built on a Ruger Red Label 20-gauge shotgun. The shotgun barrels came along with it. Dunno who the maker was--and neither did the friend I got it from. O/U doubles are normally easier to regulate and work up loads for, but this one is just coming around after almost two years of off-and-on experimetation. It came with a set of scope rings that are quite low, and I normally shoot it with a scope (a K3 Weaver).

In neither case was a fortune necessary, though with the German SxS I was in the right place at the right time. Both are a lot of fun, and a lot more applicable to North American hunting than an over-.40 British rifle. I have fooled with those too, and they are a lot of fun but really specialized.

The 9.3x74R seems a nice, moderately powered cartridge for a double (apparently why everybody who makes doubles chambers it) for what one would use it for in NA at say, 150 yds. and under. Most in this chambering are lighter too; at least, the ones I've looked at.

GN - about the Blaser:

There were a couple things I just couldn't get past.

The biggest issue was the cocking safety (more or less the same as the Kreighoff). Some people seem to be able to adjust to it - but I'm apparently not one of them.

Also, I couldn't get used to the idea of the "weatherstripping" between the barrels (a covering to hide the jack-screw). It just seemed wrong.

Finally, they're not "fitted" but off-the-shelf. I shot both a right hand stock left handed (I DO NOT recommend you try this yourself) and a left hand stock. This was much better but still not the same as having a fitted stock.

The price at the time was within $3,000 of the Heym and the Blaser was downright clubby in comparison, the above concerns notwithstanding. It was an easy decision (for me).

JB, I spoke with a 'smith and a machinist yesterday about converting a SXS 12 gauge to a double. The 45-70 seemed to be the logigal choice to the smith due to lower pressures. The shotgun in question was a run of the mill SXS without a sidelock, just the top or centre lock. A new set of extractors would have to made or the old ones modified. The machinist, a hell of guy btw, stated it wouldn't take a lot of time, nor effort to machine full length inserts (barrels) to slide in the existing barrels, as long as the chokes were gone. Regulating would be imposible, but it would be a reasonable 100 yard rifle. Have you heard of this being done before? For the money, a fella may be able to get into a double for a resonable price?

R.

I suspect the inserts would make the shotgun very muzzle heavy, and add a lot of weight in general. Without regulation, I'm not sure it would be accurate enough for 100 yards. Before you do this, why not just leave it as is and try rifled slugs in it?

I have not handled one but I have heard of it being done and even knew a smith who had done several.

Every double rifle I have hunted with has shot under 2.5 inches and most all of them would shoot an inch...I promptly sold every one of them that didn't..

I wouldn't own an iron sighted rifle that would not shoot at least 1.5 inches at 50 yards and one inch suits me better..I might want to shoot something mean between the eyes or in the eye..

I have found the Searcys to be the most accurate doubles that I have ever shot along with a few Army/Navy and Jefferys English doubles that shot extremely well if you tinkered with them.

Sometimes I don't think folks know how to make a double shoot, testing reloads is the way, but you must find the right load that emcompasses accuracy and regulation and therein lies the difficulty but it can be done if your determined, and get rid of all those old wives tales you read about..

Such tripe as you must shoot the front trigger first, and never use IMR-4831 in an English gun or don't shoot monolithics in a double and on and on..I have challanged each and every one of these tales and they just hold no water.

Ray, with my old eyes, I am mighty pleased with myself AND the rifle when I can do quick pairs into an inch and a half at 50 yards.

Especially tragic when the slaves now serve willingly.

In fact the 450/400 #2 (aka the 400 Jeffery) is a candidate for shotgun conversions because it is a fairly long but low pressure cartridge that will still gives a a 400 grain bullet at about 2100 fps at much lower pressure than a souped up 45-70. It was more popular before the .375 came out and was used in Africa on up to ele by Taylor. Elmer keith also liked it. And...Hornady now loads it.

Rman,

I'd worry about doing all the work and not being able to get the thing to regulate at all---plus the issue of weight.

That would be more than a bummer. I did some math, and didn't like what I came up with. Barrel blanks would be running close to $300.00 new, plus machining. A lot of machining, probably that much again to get them installed, plus the extractors. I would say a $1200 bill at least for a sows ear, not a silk purse. There are a few around. There was a double at the show here this weekend, an English to boot, for $5000.00. It could have used new wood, but thats about it. Like all things, best just to wait until it can be done properly.

R.

With the help of Rick Stickleys metal genious (rick lived in Pocotello, Id. back then) I have built one double rifle from a re-hardened Browing side by side..It was a real project and one I will not attempt again..It cost me about $5000 and it shot well, mostly due to Ricks coaching and his ability of solder, but in the end, it was still a shotgun conversion..It was a beautiful rifle with a real nice exhibition Circasian stock.

I finally sold it for $8000. but that was full value and lucky on my part I think..I fear that if I built anymore of them they wouldn't sell quick and then bring only about $5000...It just didn't seem like a good business venture inasmuch as I have a years labor tied up in it...The guy that bought it still hunts with it and loves it...

Hi,

This is not a dangerous game double but an italian made Rizzini in 444. Made for french and south european market where the 444 has good reputation on wild boar despite is poor Remington factory bullet.
I have this one to test and this target is from 50m, the first two impacts where before rear sight adjustment. The other four are two one two without wait between shots, elbows rest with left blocked by my Millet plastic rest. Two 10 were down barrel two 9 up were up barrel.
I ain't tested it with reload cause most of hunters use factory fodder here, but i kept the double for some months more to do some trials. The barrels are 60cm and i wait a new model to test in 45-70, we are looking with Rizzini to have it regulated with french made cartridges (cip approved) with 300 grs partition or 350 hornady to around 600m/s (2000fps.
They prepare also for september a side by side double of high quality, english styled, in 450-400, 45-70, 405, and one or two other calibers i don't remind. Wait and see. Will have one to test as soon as available.
Regards
Dom

One of my friends was lucky enough to be part of a group celebrating the birthday of Mr. Kalashnikov. They hunted Red Stag with Baikal 30-06 O-U rifles. My friend raved about them & I purchased one at an attractive price when he returned from Russia. I believe it may have been used on the hunt because the trigger was almost decent. I put a red dot scope on it & was able to shoot about 2 1/2-3 1/2" groups at 100 yards. I used on a hog hunt in Florida & shot a couple. One was at 150 yards which was further than I desired, but it was accurate enough. Compared to a fine balanced rifle there is no comparison. As a utilitarian rifle it would certainly work at short ranges. Butt Ugly comes to mind. My other rifles will not allow the Baikal in the vault. I definitely need to take to the next gun show. All of this said, for someone that likes to tinker & shoot at short range it is an economical way to play with a double.

This Merkel 141 9,3x74R shoot groups of around 4cm at 60m with Norma Oryx 286grs, with or without red dot sight (Aimpoint H1).

The new Merkel over under in 470 and 500 presented at the german IWA in Nurnberg, i don't shoot it yet but must do its job, not on wild boar for sure...Normally regulated with Norma African PH but you can ask for other i you want to pay extra.

I really would like to get a double rifle with a preference for a SxS. It's interesting that the Continental rifles (I can't afford an English gun) in the price range I'm looking at are invariably in 9.3x74R. Then there's the chambering gap to the 450's; I would really like a 450/400 but with Hornady now offering ammo they've become harder to come by it seems.

I'd rather have a little more power than the 9.3, at least 375 H&H power. What's the story on the 375 Flanged as to loads and the future? Kynoch's factory loads I've seen go for $10 a pop!

And lastly, aside from our European friends, who here in the US are using the long, tall 9.3x74R on game. I like the fact that you can get a double in this chambering for 7.5-8lbs. and I just would really think it neat to sneak up on and plunk a moose with a double.

Very nice picture Marseille.

Just one more comment on either shotgun conversions or re-barreling, take your pick.

One of the best double-barrel American gunsmiths I've encountered (who spent much time learning his craft in Europe) said that he would gladly rebarrel any quality double shotgun to shotgun or rifle barrels, or rebarrel any double rifle, or reregulate any double rifle. He did it a lot, and I saw him do it a couple of times. He did it extremely well.

He charged by the hour, above and beyond parts, and would not quote a price beyond parts, except to tell potential customers that it would cost at least $1500 PLUS parts--and maybe $10,000.

It is a lot cheaper, generally, to buy a quality used double rifle, even if the action is a little loose. The action can be tightened for $500 or so by a good gunsmith.

Did this fella have a preference for a shotgun action to use?


I have built a 470 on a CZ 12 ga action and with a greener cross bolt seems strong. I proofed it with the 10% heavier bullet load concept, plus had the bullet seated into the rifling a couple thou's. Mounted the rifle to a beam and stepped around the corner with a string in hand. I fired 6 rounds and the action didn't budge. I threaded the entire length of the monoblock openings with 32 tpi and then full length threaded the barrel extensions. I told the customer to keep the loads on the lighter side but I guess that may not need to be the case.

If I were to build a double rifle on a shotgun action then I would use a Browning BSS 12 ga., I would have it re-hardened and be good to go with about any reasonalble double rifle load..BTW it is still going to cost you about $8000 at the least and probably more...

Based on that, you can buy a used Merkle for about the same money if you shop and argueably have a better rifle..Also the resale on shotgun actioned double rifles is zilch, and they are darn hard to move..

Personally if I couldn't afford a double rifle I would opt for a Ruger No.1 and be good to go...

I have absolutly no use for and over/under double rifle as far as a DG rifle..It's design is not such that function is reliable in that the lower barrel does not clear the action and if you are under pressure it has a tendency stop catch the ejected round on the top of the action, mostly out of human error in not forcing it open all the way, but never the less it can be an issue..That is why is has never been popular in Africa, and never will be, it just did not stand the test.

Love those browning superposed shotguns, but not the rifles.